For Interest

[Simon B]

I am visiting Plymouth in Devon[UK] and was rather delighted to see this......


and this.....

 

[Tia Valeria]

We took similar photos some years ago when we were in Plymouth waiting for our ferry to Santander and then walking the Camino. The shell is huge and unmissable on the wall by the Barbican and overlooking the harbour. Happy memories!

 

[Bert45]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

 

[Camo]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

The Oxford Dictionary states: "Usage—Note that in British English licence is the correct spelling for the noun and is also an acceptable variant spelling of the verb. In US English, both noun and verb are spelled license"
and " when it comes to adjectives, licenced may be used."

 

[Bert45]

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

"The verb spell has two correct past tense forms. The past tense spelled is preferred in American English, while either spelled or spelt is acceptable in British English." [thesaurus.com and many other websites]
"The earliest known use of the verb license is in the Middle English period (1150—1500).
OED's earliest evidence for license is from 1398, in a translation by John Trevisa, translator." [oed.com]
That predates the manufacture of the plate, I should think. And Plymouth (Devon) is in England.

 

[Bert45]

The Oxford Dictionary states: "Usage—Note that in British English licence is the correct spelling for the noun and is also an acceptable variant spelling of the verb. In US English, both noun and verb are spelled license"
and " when it comes to adjectives, licenced may be used."

Just because something is acceptable doesn't make it right.

 

[Tia Valeria]

This shell and plaque, as you say @Bert45 , is in Plymouth UK so for this type of 'licence' the spelling is correct as on a UK driving licence! I just double checked mine

 

[Bert45]

This shell and plaque, as you say @Bert45 , is in Plymouth UK so for this type of 'licence' the spelling is correct as on a UK driving licence! I just double checked mine

No, Tia, a driving licence is a noun which licenses (a verb) you to drive.

 

[Kathar1na]

I feel like ordering this badge. The online blurb describes it as a stylish accessory that exudes a fun vibe with its limited edition design. Might it help? I am not a native speaker of English but I am aware of spelling conventions like an advice / advised, a practice / practised or an offence / an offense. Is it worth pointing it out in this context, let alone making a prolonged fuss about it?

There is more to this inscription in Plymouth than the letter "c" in a single word. Whether licenced or licensed, Plymouth was apparently one of only two ports where English pilgrims could start their journey across the sea to Saint James in Galicia. How come? When was this? What's the other port in England? Wouldn't this be more interesting to explore and to know?

Or look at all the letters that form this sentence: The pilgrims often wore a sign indicating their destination. Those going to Santiago de Compostela wore a scallop shell. No, they didn't. They do now but they didn't when Plymouth was only one of two licenced / licensed ports for Santiago pilgrims. In those days, these pilgrims wore a scallop shell - or a kind of pin in the form of a scallop shell - as a sign indicating where they had been to and not where they are planning to go to. But it is true that the shell later became a general symbol for pilgrimage in Europe and nowadays it's just fine to carry a scallop shell to Santiago.

Thanks for sharing the photos, @Simon B.

 

[SabsP]

No, Tia, a driving licence is a noun which licenses (a verb) you to drive.

FWIW as a non native English speaker I could not care less. Lots of native English speakers neither I guess .
This is rather a luxury issue.

I am very grateful that most people here are so friendly when we " foreigners " make mistakes with ( in ? ) grammar and spelling.

 

[Kirkie]

I am licenced to teach, and to drive a car. Prove me wrong
Thanks for the fun above.
Signed: a native English speaker who is not English. And don't be too humble, @SabsP - your command of the English language is not at all bad
(by the way, my teachers at school would never have let me off with beginning a sentence with and...)
Thanks also to @Kathar1na for introducing a different line of enquiry...perhaps I shall try to find out which was the second port...
Edit: I have just sent an email to the English camino society to see if they can help.

 

[Camo]

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

To decode, I am from Oz and we say splelt and age of plate says licence was correct spelling in "ancient" times.

Bigger question is where were they going TO? and in modern times seems one is meant to start at Reading for English Camino to Southampton (Portsmouth) - for Santander but Brierley says Plymouth

 

[dick bird]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

´Wrongly´, if you really want to be correct since it is qualifying a verb so should be an adverb, but equally one could argue that it is an adverb owing to its position in the sentence, the fact that it doesn´t have -ly on the end is thus irrelevant. In British English, the -ce ending is generally used for nouns, e.g. practice and the -se ending for verbs e.g. practise. Oddly, American English will normally use the -se ending, as in defense, offense for nouns but, paradoxically, the -ce ending for both noun and verb forms of practice. Historically, there was a lot of inconsistency in English spelling, for example ´honor´ was common in 17th century British English. Apart from Canada, most English speaking countries tend to follow British English and Canada tends to follow the US, but there is no consistency and English speaking countries may even have variations of their own.

In reality, there is no such thing as ´correct English´ as there is no recognised authority to determine what it is (or isn´t). In Linguistics, the only criterion is common usage, which is a very slippery concept indeed.

Incidentally, the term ´native speaker´ is disliked by many language professionals as it suggests one is born with a specific language, which one isn´t: language is acquired.

Pilgrims could have started from any one of a number of ports in South England, e.g. Bristol, Southampton, Shoreham, Plymouth, even London and sailed to any one of a number of ports on the north coast of Spain although A Coruña would be the most obvious choice as it it closest to Santiago.

There is a very well way marked camino route from Reading Abbey, once a pilgrimage destination in its own right, to Southampton. I believe it is recognised by Santiago cathedral meaning that if you have walked it, you can still qualify for a compostela even if you have walked from A Coruña (less than 100km to Santiago), but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Camo]

but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Seems you are right and here is article
Guardian Article
Here is the main map from my Web-App

 

[chinacat]

@dick bird

Methinks it might be an adjective (describing ‘ports’).

 

[chinacat]

@Kathar1na

Thank you for your badge

… and for the levity it brought

 

[chinacat]

Thanks also to @Kathar1na for introducing a different line of enquiry...perhaps I shall try to find out which was the second port...

Dover seems to be the port used by those on their way to Jerusalem.
Perhaps it was the second one.

Or could it be Southampton? (to Le Havre)

The plaque doesn’t stipulate England as the source. Perhaps it could have been Pembroke (not in England )
Or perhaps Liverpool? (which is )

Thank you @Simon B for your photographs!

 

[Kirkie]

Well, I did find something just now, from reading in the csj website. From a thesis by Constance Storrs. Maybe those who made the plaque were short of space...

 

[Kathar1na]

Dover seems to be the port used by those on their way to Jerusalem. Perhaps it was the second one.

Yes, Dover was the second port that was licensed / licenced in the same way as Plymouth.

There was actually a thread about this earlier on the forum and yours truly was involved. My question was rhetorical, my intention was to put the focus more on the content. The content of the inscription is more important and more interesting than the orthography.

Indeed, pilgrims also sailed from other ports in England that were suitable as the port of departure for a journey to Saint James in Galicia at the same time when Plymouth and Dover were licensed / licenced. It is just that ships carrying pilgrims and sailing from these other ports in medieval times required a separate and additional royal/government authorisation.

 

[Bert45]

´Wrongly´, if you really want to be correct since it is qualifying a verb so should be an adverb, but equally one could argue that it is an adverb owing to its position in the sentence, the fact that it doesn´t have -ly on the end is thus irrelevant. In British English, the -ce ending is generally used for nouns, e.g. practice and the -se ending for verbs e.g. practise. Oddly, American English will normally use the -se ending, as in defense, offense for nouns but, paradoxically, the -ce ending for both noun and verb forms of practice. Historically, there was a lot of inconsistency in English spelling, for example ´honor´ was common in 17th century British English. Apart from Canada, most English speaking countries tend to follow British English and Canada tends to follow the US, but there is no consistency and English speaking countries may even have variations of their own.

In reality, there is no such thing as ´correct English´ as there is no recognised authority to determine what it is (or isn´t). In Linguistics, the only criterion is common usage, which is a very slippery concept indeed.

Incidentally, the term ´native speaker´ is disliked by many language professionals as it suggests one is born with a specific language, which one isn´t: language is acquired.

Pilgrims could have started from any one of a number of ports in South England, e.g. Bristol, Southampton, Shoreham, Plymouth, even London and sailed to any one of a number of ports on the north coast of Spain although A Coruña would be the most obvious choice as it it closest to Santiago.

There is a very well way marked camino route from Reading Abbey, once a pilgrimage destination in its own right, to Southampton. I believe it is recognised by Santiago cathedral meaning that if you have walked it, you can still qualify for a compostela even if you have walked from A Coruña (less than 100km to Santiago), but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

"Wrong and wrongly are both adverbs. Wrong can be used informally instead of wrongly after a verb. In fact it is taking over from the word wrongly. However, when the adverb comes before the verb we use
wrongly." google.com
Wrong
Used as an adverb in informal language to mean "incorrectly" when it comes after a verb or its object. For example, "My name was spelled wrong" OED

According to Merriam Webster: "The best way to choose between wrong and wrongly is to rely on your own grasp of English. The one that sounds correct, is correct. If they both sound correct then either one may be used."​

I copied and pasted the last one. I can't un-bold it.
English is a language of conventions. It is a convention that 'license' is a verb and 'licence' is a noun in the UK. Otherwise ay cud ryt a lode ov jibrish and spect u 2 undrstand it.

 

[henrythedog]

Might I add a plug for ‘The history of English’ podcast produced by - ironically - by a Canadian.

If you think you’ve got some idea how English evolved and why the spelling is as it is, I guarantee you’ll learn something remarkable every few minutes.

Skip the first 30 or so unless you’re doing an Anglo-Saxon PhD.

 

[Bert45]

I wrote seven words as a fairly flippant off-the-cuff remark, and it has provoked all this debate! How unnecessary! 'Licenced' was wrong on a sign in the UK, that's all there is to it.
How many times have you seen posts asking for 'advise' on this forum? Too many to count. I keep quiet as many people don't seem to like being corrected.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Licenced' was wrong on a sign in the UK, that's all there is to it.

I repeat, not according to the Oxford English dictionary (widely regarded as the accepted authority on the English language) - see post #5 above.

 

[Kirkie]

Oh dear. Who cares? There is neither spelling nor grammar test to get through the pearly gates. 'The what?' The pearly gates.
I also had a reply from another superlative expert on all things pilgrimage. Still nothing definitive, but it does look like Constance Storrs has reason with her.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I hope there's no algebra test either, or I'm a gonna for sure...