The case for preserving the descent into Zubiri.

[Peregrinopaul]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.









I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

 

[Corned Beef]

Excellent article/chapter. I had forgotten how bad that descent was.

When you get it published, make sure it goes in the Horror section.

 

[davejsy]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

I couldn't agree more, and look forward to reading the screenshots of your book when back on pc. The Camino needs preserving both the good bits and the bad bits, it was never meant to be a walk along a perfectly tarmacked track.

It's different if a section becomes practically impassible and there's no alternatives, but this section is perfectly passable with care and if not there are alternatives.

However, if someone could do a tunnel from St JPdP to Roncesvalles with a travelator. . .

 

[Bradypus]

Thank you for such a clear explanation.

 

[CarolamS]

How very interesting, thank you.

Is the path down to Molinaseca created in the same way?

 

[Peregrinopaul]

How very interesting, thank you.

Is the path down to Molinaseca created in the same way?

To some extent, yes. Once again it comes down to moving tectonic plates, and in the case of the rocks west of Astorga, the collision of supercontinents 400 million years ago.
Here's part of the relevant chapter. This might not be easily comprehensible as some information is assumed from earlier chapters.

 

[El Cascayal]

This is so amazing. Thank you for doing this!
Is it eroding besides the elements from the walking, poles, etc…?
Do you see a way to preserve it? I’m fascinated by rocks and love your post, even if I don’t quite understand it.

 

[candi]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

I agree. My third trek on that section was September 2023 at 73 years old. As hard as it is, the beauty of the rock formations and the trail should be preserved. Slow and thoughtful when you take on this section is the key.

 

[Mito]

“They paved paradise…..”.

I agree with you completely. And your book looks fascinating!

I can’t imagine what that section would be like paved. I shudder at the thought. It’s a natural feature and quite doable with care. I did it just 3 years ago on my own and in my late 60s. It’s not a hazard.

I’m wondering if an alternate route can be suggested to those who are afraid of the descent? The road, for example. It wouldn’t be aesthetic. But it would prevent ruining forever a natural and historical part of the Camino for everyone — to make only a few more comfortable.

 

[VNwalking]

In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

Same.
Perhaps someone should write a letter to said turismo with many signatures?
I'd sign in an instant.

And maybe contacting a local geologist, getting them on board? They may not have any idea this plan is afoot.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Of course I'm making a big assumption based on the word 'repair'. However I suspect that the hill out of Linzoain would have resembled some of the exposures in my pictures. The underlying geology is identical. Perhaps some 'old timers' can remember its state before that was 'fixed up'..

 

[Chris Carter]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

The geology on that section is awesome. I walked it on 5/5/24 after rain and had few problems. You just need to think about your footsteps four or five steps a head. This is a skill for hill walking and coping with all sterp descents. Interestingly it is ghe same skill used to canoe white water rapids.
So keep it and appreciate the geology.

 

[Tony Lenton]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

That is probably the most interesting and well constructed post I’ve seen on this site. Thank you.

 

[MassNative]

As a long-time hiker in the New England (USA) hills/mountains, none of the descents on the Camino Frances seemed particularly difficult. I hope they do not concrete over nature!

 

[VNwalking]

However I suspect that the hill out of Linzoain would have resembled some of the exposures in my pictures.

I was thinking that, also. It was awful to walk on, too.

 

[Mg. McKay]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

Hello. This may seem brisk, but as long as there is an alternative for traveling pilgrims to the washed out, descending section of the trail into Zubiri, I can't understand that 'more cement' is a needed solution. Let it be, sang a famous British rock band.

 

[Kathor1]

@Peregrinopaul, I am curious. Are you saying that this part of the descent to Zubiri is natural surface? I remember it well, I think, it is close to Zubiri, towards the end of the track, right?

 

[K_Lynn]

However, if someone could do a tunnel from St JPdP to Roncesvalles with a travelator. . .

I said something similar every day! "It's been a thousand years! Why haven't they built a tunnel through this mountain!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

However, if someone could do a tunnel from St JPdP to Roncesvalles with a travelator. . .

On the way from SJPdP to Roncesvalles perhaps the bus driver will allow you to walk back and forth in the aisle.

 

[Joynz]

I found this section really interesting and enjoyable to walk - compared to the many kilometres of rather boring paved footpaths and roads on the rest of the French Camino!

 

[happymarkos]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

I agree. The difference between my first CF over 10 years ago and again in 2018 was awful blue metal on parts before Zubti and other sections completely concreted.
Very hard on the feet and legs.

 

[pelerine]

Your book sounds most interesting. If it is ready but too expensive to be printed, how about publishing first in Kindle and see? If the Kindle is a success it may be cheaper to publish.

 

[timr]

@Peregrinopaul Thanks for the information and I hope you will be able to get the book out soon. The illustrations and explanations look extremely well done.

Slightly tangentially -

Does anyone know what the stretch from Castrojeriz to Alto de Mostelares was like before, I guess, it was "repaired"? I always find the concreted sections there rather incongruous, though of course the vistas are estupendas!

 

[Peregrinopaul]

@Peregrinopaul, I am curious. Are you saying that this part of the descent to Zubiri is natural surface? I remember it well, I think, it is close to Zubiri, towards the end of the track, right?

View attachment 171707

Indeed I am. You are correct that this exposure is near the bottom. I checked the data on my iphone, and it was taken here.


It’s just coincidence that the dip of the limestone layer happens to coincide with the slope of the track.

 

[ZoeyAria]

While I understand the appreciation for the unique geology (one of the most memorable paths of the Camino Frances I've encountered for sure, if partially because of how much focus is required to descend them safely), I do think something definitely has to be done about the current state of the path. Whether that is repairs or closing off the path when it has rained and sending pilgrims down an alternative safer route could be a different discussion. I walked there May 14th, and a friend I'd made at the start of the Camino and I had been discussing how dangerously slippery it was at points after the night's rain, and how easily it could've turned into a pilgrim pileup if someone at the top slipped and started sliding down. Hearing that only a few days after us a pilgrim did in fact lose their life there really drove home how dangerous the descent actually was.

 

[Kathor1]

Hearing that only a few days after us a pilgrim did in fact lose their life there really drove home how dangerous the descent actually was.

Are you referring to the French pilgrim Nicolas Acquitter, aged 45, whose disappearance caused a search operation of several days and whose body was found by the search parties on 20 May 2024? He died in circumstances that are not known in greater detail. The Avis de Décès made public by his family says "décès accidentel". No official details were published by the Spanish or French authorities nor should we expect it. It is private.

The accident happened between Roncesvalles and Zubiri and he was a pilgrim on the way to Santiago but it did not happen on the Camino Francés and it did not happen on the descent to Zubiri.

 

[ZoeyAria]

Are you referring to the French pilgrim Nicolas Acquitter, aged 45, whose disappearance caused a search operation of several days and whose body was found by the search parties on 20 May 2024? He died in circumstances that are not known in greater detail. The Avis de Décès made public by his family says "décès accidentel". No official details were published by the Spanish or French authorities nor should we expect it. It is private.

The accident happened between Roncesvalles and Zubiri and he was a pilgrim on the way to Santiago but it did not happen on the Camino Francés and it did not happen on the descent to Zubiri.

Ahh, in that case I misinterpreted the news article. My apologies, I thought that was what had happened, but I guess I had jumped to conclusions. I admit I also don't really know where exactly one puts the borders on "the descent to Zubiri", if it's only a shorter section of the descent then I misunderstood.

 

[VNwalking]

If it's wet, this surface is clearly bad.
If dry, it's a wonder to behold, if you know what you're looking at. I've only been there when it's dry, so am biased - but think a sign at the top would ruin nothing and be a cheaper solution than concrete.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

If it's wet, this surface is clearly bad.
If dry, it's a wonder to behold, if you know what you're looking at. I've only been there when it's dry, so am biased - but think a sign at the top would ruin nothing and be a cheaper solution than concrete.

Yes I agree that a sign giving a clear warning for wet weather is needed. And an information board about the unique geology would be a splendid thing.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

And just to be clear, if they got in there with machinery and concreted it, it would be transformed into something similar to the short climb out of Lintzoain - see pic 1 in my original post.

 

[Kathor1]

Ahh, in that case I misinterpreted the news article. My apologies, I thought that was what had happened, but I guess I had jumped to conclusions. I admit I also don't really know where exactly one puts the borders on "the descent to Zubiri", if it's only a shorter section of the descent then I misunderstood.

I don't blame you. You are not the only person who thought that the accident happened on the Camino path itself. It is known that the pilgrim felt ill and phoned a friend and asked to get him help and the French police put out a missing person notice - which made it into the French press but not into the Spanish press. With the result that the official notice with the pilgrim's photo circulated on FaceBook (his sister asked for help to find him) and other social media in French but not in English. An autopsy was performed and a judicial inquest was opened in Pamplona but, as I said, no further information has been released for public consumption and family and authorities regard it obviously as a private matter. Rightly so. But it is important to know that it was not an incident that is related to the physical conditions of the trail from Linzoain to Zubiri.

When people talk about the difficulties or the perceived danger of the Camino path to Zubiri and the descent to Zubiri they refer to two different places as I understand it: a first part where the path is very uneven, with the rock resembling "dragon teeth", and a second part where the path is very smooth with the rock presenting an even surface.

I walked a number of years ago. I do not particularly remember the uneven part (sadly because I would have liked to have known that it is a Flysch formation) while I remember the smooth part very well. It is the only section of the 800 km to Santiago that I considered to be dangerous for walkers and I share your comments in this respect.

 

[Doingit]

A recent post by @Kirkie in another older thread about the descent has prompted me to make this post. In it she tells us this:
"I wrote to turismo.web@navarra.es
The reply I got just now - I quote:
Good morning, as you say, there is a part of the Way on the descent to Zubiri that is not in good conditions due to the rains.
This year or next year it will be repeared (sic)"

Perhaps a reason for pilgrims to rejoice, but not me, as I forsee that the only feasible 'repair' may be to concrete over it.

In so doing, if it happens, we will lose one of the geological highlights of the entire route.

The rocks on the trail belong to a formation called the Flysch. And these exposures are, well, exceptional.

I have over the past 3 years been preparing a book about the geology of the camino. I haven't yet taken the final expensive step of getting it printed. In it I devote Chapter 3 to this unique place. I'll post screenshots of the relevant pages if any of you would like to read it.

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I'm not sure if you will buy into my advocacy for this section. The only time I've seen it was in good weather, and I wheeled my loaded bike down the track with no problem, because I was very careful. Perhaps a large warning sign to discourage people from attempting it in wet weather would prevent possible injuries - send them down the road. I know people reckon that the road is hazardous, but I know of no pilgrim accidents having occured.
In my opinion it would be a tragedy to obliterate this natural phenomenon.

I did the Zubiri descent last year after some rain. I did find it challenging and longer than expected. It took me a while, I'm a 65 year old solo woman with 5 ACL surgeries in my life and one LCL , all on the same knee. I was careful, was carrying my bag. It was my first day of walking. Yes it was challenging, and slippery at times. but it got done. I felt a real sense of accomplishment and the rest of the Camino felt much easier after this. The most difficult part was arriving in Zubiri with many other pilgrims and there was no accomodation there in late April. There was a large group travelling and i had to taxi with another pilgrim 18 km away for the next Albergue. I managed from then on to avoid the groups! Zubiri descent is part of the experience. One step at a time !

 

[Kathor1]

this exposure is near the bottom. I checked the data on my iphone, and it was taken here.
View attachment 171726
It’s just coincidence that the dip of the limestone layer happens to coincide with the slope of the track.

Thank you, @Peregrinopaul. In the meantime, I had a look at your excellent screenshots from your book. I just about know now what dip and strike are. The illustration with books on a shelf is very useful. As an aside, one of the absolute highlights of my walks and travels during the past two decades was a guided multi-day hiking tour down the Grand Canyon with the guide pointing out and explaining some of the rock layers that we could see. There is of course also an exhibition somewhere nearby. Walking through history of millions of years ... This is just to say that I have some amateur interest in geology and I am a potential customer if and when you do publish your book. Not that I would need any more Camino related books ... .

Looking at the photos with vegetation to the right and left ... the fact that the Flysch formation is so visible is due to erosion I guess? Not only erosion by frost, rain and wind but erosion by the thousands of feet that have walked the Camino path in recent decades, right? When I walked, between Roncesvalles and the Alto del Perdon, I wondered repeatedly just how "authentic" the trail was, and my conclusion was that it was pretty artificial and a recent creation at various locations. I cannot imagine that people who actually needed to use these paths in the past would have walked or would have chosen to where we walked - with pack animals or carrying a load themselves on their backs.

 

[Bradypus]

I cannot imagine that people who actually needed to use these paths in the past would have walked or would have chosen to where we walked - with pack animals or carrying a load themselves on their backs.

The Camino Frances in its current form as a specific signposted footpath is a creation of the 1980s with some mostly minor alterations in route from time to time since. In earlier centuries pilgrims would have walked or ridden on the main roads of the period which would have followed the safest, easiest or most direct paths available. Ones which are now used by motor traffic. The modern Camino Frances route has to be a compromise.