For Interest

[Simon B]

I am visiting Plymouth in Devon[UK] and was rather delighted to see this......


and this.....

 

[Tia Valeria]

We took similar photos some years ago when we were in Plymouth waiting for our ferry to Santander and then walking the Camino. The shell is huge and unmissable on the wall by the Barbican and overlooking the harbour. Happy memories!

 

[Bert45]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

 

[Camo]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

The Oxford Dictionary states: "Usage—Note that in British English licence is the correct spelling for the noun and is also an acceptable variant spelling of the verb. In US English, both noun and verb are spelled license"
and " when it comes to adjectives, licenced may be used."

 

[Bert45]

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

"The verb spell has two correct past tense forms. The past tense spelled is preferred in American English, while either spelled or spelt is acceptable in British English." [thesaurus.com and many other websites]
"The earliest known use of the verb license is in the Middle English period (1150—1500).
OED's earliest evidence for license is from 1398, in a translation by John Trevisa, translator." [oed.com]
That predates the manufacture of the plate, I should think. And Plymouth (Devon) is in England.

 

[Bert45]

The Oxford Dictionary states: "Usage—Note that in British English licence is the correct spelling for the noun and is also an acceptable variant spelling of the verb. In US English, both noun and verb are spelled license"
and " when it comes to adjectives, licenced may be used."

Just because something is acceptable doesn't make it right.

 

[Tia Valeria]

This shell and plaque, as you say @Bert45 , is in Plymouth UK so for this type of 'licence' the spelling is correct as on a UK driving licence! I just double checked mine

 

[Bert45]

This shell and plaque, as you say @Bert45 , is in Plymouth UK so for this type of 'licence' the spelling is correct as on a UK driving licence! I just double checked mine

No, Tia, a driving licence is a noun which licenses (a verb) you to drive.

 

[Kathor1]

I feel like ordering this badge. The online blurb describes it as a stylish accessory that exudes a fun vibe with its limited edition design. Might it help? I am not a native speaker of English but I am aware of spelling conventions like an advice / advised, a practice / practised or an offence / an offense. Is it worth pointing it out in this context, let alone making a prolonged fuss about it?

There is more to this inscription in Plymouth than the letter "c" in a single word. Whether licenced or licensed, Plymouth was apparently one of only two ports where English pilgrims could start their journey across the sea to Saint James in Galicia. How come? When was this? What's the other port in England? Wouldn't this be more interesting to explore and to know?

Or look at all the letters that form this sentence: The pilgrims often wore a sign indicating their destination. Those going to Santiago de Compostela wore a scallop shell. No, they didn't. They do now but they didn't when Plymouth was only one of two licenced / licensed ports for Santiago pilgrims. In those days, these pilgrims wore a scallop shell - or a kind of pin in the form of a scallop shell - as a sign indicating where they had been to and not where they are planning to go to. But it is true that the shell later became a general symbol for pilgrimage in Europe and nowadays it's just fine to carry a scallop shell to Santiago.

Thanks for sharing the photos, @Simon B.

 

[SabsP]

No, Tia, a driving licence is a noun which licenses (a verb) you to drive.

FWIW as a non native English speaker I could not care less. Lots of native English speakers neither I guess .
This is rather a luxury issue.

I am very grateful that most people here are so friendly when we " foreigners " make mistakes with ( in ? ) grammar and spelling.

 

[Kirkie]

I am licenced to teach, and to drive a car. Prove me wrong
Thanks for the fun above.
Signed: a native English speaker who is not English. And don't be too humble, @SabsP - your command of the English language is not at all bad
(by the way, my teachers at school would never have let me off with beginning a sentence with and...)
Thanks also to @Kathar1na for introducing a different line of enquiry...perhaps I shall try to find out which was the second port...
Edit: I have just sent an email to the English camino society to see if they can help.

 

[Camo]

The way they SPELT it might depend on how OLD the plate is (and what country you are from)

To decode, I am from Oz and we say splelt and age of plate says licence was correct spelling in "ancient" times.

Bigger question is where were they going TO? and in modern times seems one is meant to start at Reading for English Camino to Southampton (Portsmouth) - for Santander but Brierley says Plymouth

 

[dick bird]

What a shame they spelled 'licensed' wrong.

´Wrongly´, if you really want to be correct since it is qualifying a verb so should be an adverb, but equally one could argue that it is an adverb owing to its position in the sentence, the fact that it doesn´t have -ly on the end is thus irrelevant. In British English, the -ce ending is generally used for nouns, e.g. practice and the -se ending for verbs e.g. practise. Oddly, American English will normally use the -se ending, as in defense, offense for nouns but, paradoxically, the -ce ending for both noun and verb forms of practice. Historically, there was a lot of inconsistency in English spelling, for example ´honor´ was common in 17th century British English. Apart from Canada, most English speaking countries tend to follow British English and Canada tends to follow the US, but there is no consistency and English speaking countries may even have variations of their own.

In reality, there is no such thing as ´correct English´ as there is no recognised authority to determine what it is (or isn´t). In Linguistics, the only criterion is common usage, which is a very slippery concept indeed.

Incidentally, the term ´native speaker´ is disliked by many language professionals as it suggests one is born with a specific language, which one isn´t: language is acquired.

Pilgrims could have started from any one of a number of ports in South England, e.g. Bristol, Southampton, Shoreham, Plymouth, even London and sailed to any one of a number of ports on the north coast of Spain although A Coruña would be the most obvious choice as it it closest to Santiago.

There is a very well way marked camino route from Reading Abbey, once a pilgrimage destination in its own right, to Southampton. I believe it is recognised by Santiago cathedral meaning that if you have walked it, you can still qualify for a compostela even if you have walked from A Coruña (less than 100km to Santiago), but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Camo]

but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Seems you are right and here is article
Guardian Article
Here is the main map from my Web-App

 

[chinacat]

@dick bird

Methinks it might be an adjective (describing ‘ports’).

 

[chinacat]

@Kathar1na

Thank you for your badge

… and for the levity it brought

 

[chinacat]

Thanks also to @Kathar1na for introducing a different line of enquiry...perhaps I shall try to find out which was the second port...

Dover seems to be the port used by those on their way to Jerusalem.
Perhaps it was the second one.

Or could it be Southampton? (to Le Havre)

The plaque doesn’t stipulate England as the source. Perhaps it could have been Pembroke (not in England )
Or perhaps Liverpool? (which is )

Thank you @Simon B for your photographs!

 

[Kirkie]

Well, I did find something just now, from reading in the csj website. From a thesis by Constance Storrs. Maybe those who made the plaque were short of space...

 

[Kathor1]

Dover seems to be the port used by those on their way to Jerusalem. Perhaps it was the second one.

Yes, Dover was the second port that was licensed / licenced in the same way as Plymouth.

There was actually a thread about this earlier on the forum and yours truly was involved. My question was rhetorical, my intention was to put the focus more on the content. The content of the inscription is more important and more interesting than the orthography.

Indeed, pilgrims also sailed from other ports in England that were suitable as the port of departure for a journey to Saint James in Galicia at the same time when Plymouth and Dover were licensed / licenced. It is just that ships carrying pilgrims and sailing from these other ports in medieval times required a separate and additional royal/government authorisation.

 

[Bert45]

´Wrongly´, if you really want to be correct since it is qualifying a verb so should be an adverb, but equally one could argue that it is an adverb owing to its position in the sentence, the fact that it doesn´t have -ly on the end is thus irrelevant. In British English, the -ce ending is generally used for nouns, e.g. practice and the -se ending for verbs e.g. practise. Oddly, American English will normally use the -se ending, as in defense, offense for nouns but, paradoxically, the -ce ending for both noun and verb forms of practice. Historically, there was a lot of inconsistency in English spelling, for example ´honor´ was common in 17th century British English. Apart from Canada, most English speaking countries tend to follow British English and Canada tends to follow the US, but there is no consistency and English speaking countries may even have variations of their own.

In reality, there is no such thing as ´correct English´ as there is no recognised authority to determine what it is (or isn´t). In Linguistics, the only criterion is common usage, which is a very slippery concept indeed.

Incidentally, the term ´native speaker´ is disliked by many language professionals as it suggests one is born with a specific language, which one isn´t: language is acquired.

Pilgrims could have started from any one of a number of ports in South England, e.g. Bristol, Southampton, Shoreham, Plymouth, even London and sailed to any one of a number of ports on the north coast of Spain although A Coruña would be the most obvious choice as it it closest to Santiago.

There is a very well way marked camino route from Reading Abbey, once a pilgrimage destination in its own right, to Southampton. I believe it is recognised by Santiago cathedral meaning that if you have walked it, you can still qualify for a compostela even if you have walked from A Coruña (less than 100km to Santiago), but I am not sure about that, someone will correct me if I am wrong.

"Wrong and wrongly are both adverbs. Wrong can be used informally instead of wrongly after a verb. In fact it is taking over from the word wrongly. However, when the adverb comes before the verb we use
wrongly." google.com
Wrong
Used as an adverb in informal language to mean "incorrectly" when it comes after a verb or its object. For example, "My name was spelled wrong" OED

According to Merriam Webster: "The best way to choose between wrong and wrongly is to rely on your own grasp of English. The one that sounds correct, is correct. If they both sound correct then either one may be used."​

I copied and pasted the last one. I can't un-bold it.
English is a language of conventions. It is a convention that 'license' is a verb and 'licence' is a noun in the UK. Otherwise ay cud ryt a lode ov jibrish and spect u 2 undrstand it.

 

[henrythedog]

Might I add a plug for ‘The history of English’ podcast produced by - ironically - by a Canadian.

If you think you’ve got some idea how English evolved and why the spelling is as it is, I guarantee you’ll learn something remarkable every few minutes.

Skip the first 30 or so unless you’re doing an Anglo-Saxon PhD.

 

[Bert45]

I wrote seven words as a fairly flippant off-the-cuff remark, and it has provoked all this debate! How unnecessary! 'Licenced' was wrong on a sign in the UK, that's all there is to it.
How many times have you seen posts asking for 'advise' on this forum? Too many to count. I keep quiet as many people don't seem to like being corrected.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Licenced' was wrong on a sign in the UK, that's all there is to it.

I repeat, not according to the Oxford English dictionary (widely regarded as the accepted authority on the English language) - see post #5 above.

 

[Kirkie]

Oh dear. Who cares? There is neither spelling nor grammar test to get through the pearly gates. 'The what?' The pearly gates.
I also had a reply from another superlative expert on all things pilgrimage. Still nothing definitive, but it does look like Constance Storrs has reason with her.
Edit:
Also for interest, and before the thread gets closed down because of irrelevance, , you ain't heard nothing yet. Hiberno English. Above, I wrote that Constance has reason with her. I understand, possibly erroneously, that this indicates a loose translation or interpretation of the Irish Gaelic language construction. I have yet to actually find a straightforward yes or no answer from someone who thinks in Irish. It seems those two words are not to be found. As ever, I am open to be corrected.
There are some amusing pieces to be found on internet about Irish English...could be useful for someone planning on doing a Celtic Camino. .

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I hope there's no algebra test either, or I'm a gonna for sure...

 

[dick bird]

Well, I did find something just now, from reading in the csj website. From a thesis by Constance Storrs. Maybe those who made the plaque were short of space...
View attachment 178901

Do you have the link for this? It´s from ´Jacobean Pilgrims from England to St James of Comostella (sic)´ and is her MA thesis. The csj website has it for sale for 12 pounds but I´m not in the UK. I think it is also available as a pdf.
Edit: here is a site to download it from: https://dokumen.pub/qdownload/jacob...to-the-late-fifteenth-century-8445322877.html

From memory, I think I read a chapter or extract where she specifically refers to voyages from England to Spain. King Edward (not sure which one) imposed licences partly because of the deteriorating political situation between England and France, probably in the 14th century. It was about this time that England could no longer import red wine from France so had to import it from Portugal instead. To keep it from going off during the longer sea journey, the wine was cut with spirits. Mixing red wine with brandy and selling it to the English aristocracy was a marketing move of sheer genius and the Port wine industry has never looked back since. The wine, of course, takes its name from the port of origin, Oporto, or O Porto - ´the port´ in Portuguese.

 

[Kirkie]

Do you have the link for this? It´s from ´Jacobean Pilgrims from England to St James of Comostella (sic)´ and is her MA thesis. The csj website has it for sale for 12 pounds but I´m not in the UK. I think it is also available as a pdf.

From memory, I think I read a chapter or extract where she specifically refers to voyages from England to Spain. King Edward (not sure which one) imposed licences partly because of the deteriorating political situation between England and France, probably in the 14th century. It was about this time that England could no longer import red wine from France so had to import it from Portugal instead. To keep it from going off during the longer sea journey, the wine was cut with spirits. Mixing red wine with brandy and selling it to the English aristocracy was a marketing move of sheer genius and the Port wine industry has never looked back since. The wine, of course, takes its name from the port of origin, Oporto, or O Porto - ´the port´ in Portuguese.

https://www.academia.edu/37669676/T...land_Castile_and_the_Pilgrimage_to_Compostela
came up as an option when I typed Constance Storrs medieval pilgrimage thesis pdf.

 

[dick bird]

https://www.academia.edu/37669676/T...land_Castile_and_the_Pilgrimage_to_Compostela
came up as an option when I typed Constance Storrs medieval pilgrimage thesis pdf.

Much thanks for this, some excellent stuff in there. Just after posting, I managed to find another website to download from (it´s in my earlier post, which I edited). That also has some excellent articles in it. I shall now bury myself for a few hours as I read her thesis. I skimmed it and it is remarkable. She seems to have been a remarkable person.

 

[C clearly]

Just because something is acceptable doesn't make it right.

I am having some trouble making cents cense cence sense of this statement!

 

[lalaone]

Edit: here is a site to download it from: https://dokumen.pub/qdownload/jacob...to-the-late-fifteenth-century-8445322877.html

This download worked for me. Thank you @dick bird and thank you @Kirkie !

 

[chinacat]

A gentle warning about academia.edu …

Years ago I downloaded a paper from the site.
Since then, I have received almost daily emails from them.
I haven’t even registered with them but they have my email address.
They also have my name, which is fairly uncommon, and apparently I have been cited in more than a thousand academic papers.
Every time they notify me of a new citation they attempt to get me to sign up for a full membership.

There are many useful and interesting papers published on the site, some by authors I know and/or have met, from the particular field that interests me.

But thank you, @Kirkie, it had never occurred to me to look in Academia for Storr’s paper.

 

[Kirkie]

A gentle warning about academia.edu …

Years ago I downloaded a paper from the site.
Since then, I have received almost daily emails from them.
I haven’t even registered with them but they have my email address.
They also have my name, which is fairly uncommon, and apparently I have been cited in more than a thousand academic papers.
Every time they notify me of a new citation they attempt to get me to sign up for a full membership.

There are many useful and interesting papers published on the site, some by authors I know and/or have met, from the particular field that interests me.

But thank you, @Kirkie, it had never occurred to me to look in Academia for Storr’s paper.

I did not download, so thanks for warning!

 

[Kathor1]

A gentle warning about academia.edu …
Years ago I downloaded a paper from the site.
Since then, I have received almost daily emails from them.

Just wondering: Is there no link in these emails that allows you to opt out?

I have an account with academia.edu. I vaguely remember getting similar emails at first but currently I am getting no emails at all from them.

I checked my account settings. For email notifications it says: Your email address is currently opted-out of all Academia.edu email.

There is a link where I could activate email notifications.

 

[chinacat]

@Kathar1na

Thank you …
I don’t have an account with them, I just receive the emails.
I have thought of ‘unsubscribing’ but I do want to receive notifications of papers I’m interested in. So for the time being I’m resigned to receiving all the emails that tell me of yet another citation.
I’ve never uploaded anything to their site and I am intrigued by all the mentions of my name but not sufficiently to have signed up.
I have downloaded many pdf documents so I suppose I can hardly complain about receiving, and deleting, so many emails

I did say it was a ‘gentle’ warning
(and I am aware that there are some on here who like to keep their inboxes in order …you know who you are )

 

[Kathor1]

I don’t have an account with them, I just receive the emails

I am not going to try to convince you otherwise.

Although I just tried to view or download the document linked above and academia.edu would not let me. It offered me the options of “continuing” with Google, Apple, Facebook (on big buttons that are quickly clicked) or with email (in small letters). When you click on one of the buttons your email address, name and other details will be pulled from your Google, Apple or Facebook account.

I always avoid clicking on these tempting options for automatically creating an account on a website and prefer to create the account myself.

 

[chinacat]

I’m with you on this.

I avoid these links altogether.
But I am wary concerning my online privacy.
I won’t join Facebook, or use WhatsApp for that reason. This is the only form of social media that I use. (unless one counts YouTube, of course )

I use IMBD all the time, without ever having signed in or registered.
That’s the kind of site I like

I’ve never gone looking for any specific paper on Academia, I just download the pdf documents in their emails.
Perhaps it’s because I open them in duck.duck.go that they don’t ask me to sign in when I do download. It’s obvious that they know what interests me.

 

[Camo]

It’s obvious that they know what interests me.

It's called cookies

 

[dick bird]

Can we stay on topic with this thread? It is an interesting subject and it would be a shame to have to close the thread because it has become derailed.

 

[John Cook]

I spotted this sign in the Yorkshire Dales in July. I don't know if I could have relied on finding enough signs to get me to the south coast ports though.

 

[Camo]

Yorkshire Dales in July

Could you please give me a location?

 

[John Cook]

Could you please give me a location?

Looking on OS map 30, it's at the end of a footpath just before the entrance to the woods about 1/2 km east of Preston-under-scar. I had just come down from the Leyburn Shawl

 

[Camo]

about 1/2 km east of Preston-under-scar.

Street View fades out here once off the main road so can't see it but can see the general area you mean which is glorious country just about 30 miles West of the Cleveland Way. But seems to be close to the route of the Slow TV "All Aboard the Country Bus"

Curious that it mentions the Ingles as it looks like a "modern" sign and as Brierley says ship routes to Ingles are "historical" only.

Was that the only one you saw?

 

[John Cook]

Street View fades out here once off the main road so can't see it but can see the general area you mean which is glorious country just about 30 miles West of the Cleveland Way. But seems to be close to the route of the Slow TV "All Aboard the Country Bus"

Curious that it mentions the Ingles as it looks like a "modern" sign and as Brierley says ship routes to Ingles are "historical" only.

Was that the only one you saw?

Hi,
Yes I only saw this one but I was on a challenge walk with my walking club so I was following a fixed route that went on into the woods. As I'd come from the north east, I couldn't continue in the direction the arrow was facing which presumably, would have lead me south after that. I did say 'Buen Camino to some of the other competitors I was walking with at that point .
The event is called 'A Foot in Two Dales' if you ever fancy walking a 50 mile nonstop event. It's a qualifier for our annual 100 mile in 48 hours event!

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Hi,
Yes I only saw this one but I was on a challenge walk with my walking club so I was following a fixed route that went on into the woods. As I'd come from the north east, I couldn't continue in the direction the arrow was facing which presumably, would have lead me south after that. I did say 'Buen Camino to some of the other competitors I was walking with at that point .
The event is called 'A Foot in Two Dales' if you ever fancy walking a 50 mile nonstop event. It's a qualifier for our annual 100 mile in 48 hours event!

That's a heck of a lot of walking!
How do you work out your eating and rest stops? If you took a 10 minute break every hour that equates to 8 hours over a 48 hour period.
Leaving an average of four kilometers per hour, so doable - but !

 

[John Cook]

That's a heck of a lot of walking!
How do you work out your eating and rest stops? If you took a 10 minute break every hour that equates to 8 hours over a 48 hour period.
Leaving an average of four kilometers per hour, so doable - but !

We have checkpoints every 5-9 miles with food and drink provided but most of us only sit down a few times. Restarting walking after you've sat down for a few minutes can be a bit uncomfortable at first, especially if I have a blister.
As we have to pass through each checkpoint before a certain time, it doesn't give me much time to explore beyond the written route, otherwise I would have loved to see if I could have found any more Camino signs that day.
Incidentally, it's surprising how many people over 60 years old complete the 100 mile challenge. The record for the most completions was set this year by someone in my local group. He's 82, I believe and I think he's done 42 100's.
Google the LDWA if you live in the UK and want to do a 20 social walk every weekend.

 

[Camo]

The event is called 'A Foot in Two Dales' if you ever fancy walking a 50 mile nonstop event.

Thanks for the offer and what are the two dales?

Unfortunately my walking days are over but my Web-App for Cleveland Way is most recent of the National Trails and furthest North - love the aspect of dales and sea, down to Scarborough (Fair). I did recently use a file from LDWA but can't remember off hand

 

[John Cook]

Thanks for the offer and what are the two dales?

Unfortunately my walking days are over but my Web-App for Cleveland Way is most recent of the National Trails and furthest North - love the aspect of dales and sea, down to Scarborough (Fair). I did recently use a file from LDWA but can't remember off hand

They are Swaledale and Wensleydale, via Shunner Fell on the Pennine Way.

 

[Kirkie]

Returning to the opening post and licences... I have had some follow through emails with a person in the Confraternity of St James, and I see how much I have to learn. So I hope to acquire a copy of the thesis by Storrs, soon, and then I shall know everything.
This was in one email: ' We have every year a lecture in memory of Constance Storrs. The details should soon be on our website. Our speaker on Sat. 30November will be Victoria Preston, author of “We are Pilgrims”. We are holding it this year not at our Offices but at St James Garlickhythe, in the City, which is close to where garlic and wine (and pilgrims!) were traded with Spain.'
So, anyone in the vicinity of the City...