The culture has changed...sadly

[Former member 108241]

Re losing glasses? This one I do not understand ... if glasses are important and someone is going on a five week rucksack hike in a foreign country, then surely they buy two pairs of really cheap glasses and leave their designer ones at home? If they break or lose their glasses they have a back up pair, and if they take their prescription with them if they are twice unlucky they just get some cheap ones made at the next city ... or am I missing something?

My glasses aren't designer by any stretch of the imagination but they still cost over $1,000 because the script is so complicated thanks to astigmatism in my right eye plus other complications. I would still take them because I need them. I would definitely take a back up pair of generic reading glasses from the pharmacy but they would only get me by for a short time before my eyes start watering and the headaches start.

And apologies to whoever mentioned the posts about lost glasses but if I lost mine, given they cost over $1,000 and I can't function without them I would definitely be posting in lost and found sub forums wherever I can!

 

[alexwalker]

The only constant in our lives is change.

 

[David]

The only constant in our lives is change.

Hang on, if in life there is no constant but only change then that would make change a constant

 

[Robo]

I would add a good head torch. We did a bit of blundering around in the dark in the first couple of weeks on the VdlP trying to find the arrows.

Yes of course. I should have added that.
Though I assumed anyone walking in the dark would have one

 

[Bristle Boy]

Hang on, if in life there no constant but only change then that would make change a constant

And there you have it.....
We are constantly changing or changing constantly.
Or should that be adapting?

 

[trecile]

The only constant in our lives is change.

I thought that it was death and taxes.

 

[WalkingInGers]

When I started, the main problem was the dragons.

Did you say « Dragons »?

 

[NorthernLight]

I thought that it was death and taxes.

I thought those were the only certain things.

 

[Glenshiro]

The only certainties in life are summer and babies. (Stella Gibbons, Cold Comfort Farm)

 

[Purple Backpack]

Last week, I celebrated my 70th birthday, and the 10th anniversary of my first Camino in 2013. Things HAVE changed since then. For one thing, there are tens of thousands more forum members. I think we recently exceeded 100,000 members.

Some of those members are long time veterans. Others are newbies. Some have done dozens of Caminos. Others are trying to do their first one.

However, and IMHO, people have STILL not gotten comfortable using the SEARCH function at the top, right corner of the web page, before asking the SAME BASIC QUESTIONS. Just use key-words for your search: sleeping bag, July, Burgos, walking poles, Madrid airport, etc. The reply will be huge. You can limit your search within the initial results. The forum search function is VERY ROBUST.

I say this because many of us veterans no longer immediately dive-in to repeat the same answers to the same questions we gave years ago. Things do not change that much from year to year. My view, and that of some other veterans I have communicated with on this issue, is that the lesser experienced pilgrims should search the hundreds of thousands of posts, before asking a particular question.

Those among us who have been there and done that are ALWAYS willing to help out with a new variant of an old question, provided the new variant of the question is unique enough to warrant a new answer. The Conversation or Private Message function exists so any forum member can ask another forum member a specific question that may not be of interest to the other 100,000+ members. I ALWAYS reply to my PMs - and quickly.

Lastly, I was 59 when I first learned of the Camino. Aged 60 when I arrived at Santiago the first time, walking from SJPdP on my first Camino.

Now, 10 years later, I am starting to see my mortality ahead of me. I intend to remain active as long as I can. But, over the past three-years, I have mourned the passing of more than a dozen, family members, friends, and former colleagues. The COVID pandemic, and the passage of years, have thinned out the proverbial herd a bit.

While I accept this as a fact of life, and I am well-aware that no one gets out of life alive, it is all very sobering. In fact, the Camino and this forum got me through the COVID thing over the past more than three years. When I have a bad day, I can always find something to do here to help someone else. Finding issues to reply to is never a problem.

While I continue to try to walk a Camino each spring and to volunteer at the Pilgrim Office each summer - usually around the Apostle's Feast - when they need the help the most, life sometimes gets in the way. I am currently the caregiver for my wife, who is gravely ill. So, no Santiago or Camino for me this season. Señor Santiago will still be there next year, and the years after.

What I am trying to impart here is that I, and some others, who are more "mature" persons, are still actively participating in the forum. We also try to keep our passion for the Camino - and all related things alive - in part by helping in the forum. However, we are not as keen to jump on every post in every thread. The consequence, is that it "appears" that we are not as active.

On the contrary, we are active. We are there, lurking in the background, reading the highlights every day. just more selective at what discussions we choose to dive into. As I become more senior, I am more deliberate at where I choose to offer assistance. I will always be here to help any pilgrim, for as long as my Savior gives me the strength, and internet connectivity.

Hope this helps clarify matters.

Tom

I walked the Frances in 2012 and have quite a few long distance walks under my belt now. I flit in and out of the forum, depending on what’s going on in life and tend to wander in more right before/after a trip.

Tom, I’m so sorry to hear of your wife’s challenges. I was on the forum a lot in 2019, when I became the caregiver for my mom, who had glioblastoma. There were so many heartbreaking, sleepless nights and I would log on here as a lovely distraction from the heaviness of reality. It was wonderful to read all the newbie questions, review packing lists, ponder future trails and even occasionally pull out the maps, knowing that someday I’d be able to walk again. Your faith is strong and mine is what kept me going, even when it felt like putting one proverbial foot in front of the other was impossible. Remember that you’re not walking alone, and we’re here in the middle of the night for you, too.

Numbers 6:24-26

 

[David Tallan]

When I started, the main problem was the dragons.

Did you say « Dragons »?

At least not Dungeons, too.

 

[Barbara]

I will have to find a thread tha discusses how to pack one’s backpack silently, in the dark, when one has a CPAP machine in three parts.

Just leave later

 

[musicman]

I am the “Ensuitepilgrim “ - I have had the experience of basic albergues when nought else was available- and I resolved never to use them again; I am able to use private albergues or small hotels and when organising many Caminos for my friendship groups I find this is the only way it is feasible- I don’t use private companies.
I use Booking.com, mainly or e- mail for accommodation and the wonderful Correos for luggage transfer. Average age 72….and counting . No rustling bags,wakeful head torches, nor wondering where I can lay my head after a day’s sauntering. It keeps small villages alive,too. AND
- We’re not taking up bunk beds that needier Pelegrinos seek. Yes, in 20 years on various Caminos there have been changes, but all the “ nostalgia”…well? The Frances bears the brunt of all the moons and groans above. Plenty of alternatives. Buen Camino to you all..on foot,on bikes, on horseback or wheelchair.

 

[Rita Flower]

People need different things at different stages of their journey. I spent almost a year lurking and learning before I left on my walk. I do see the need for on the walk assistance during the walk if you are missing items that can not be left behind. Glasses are important, especially prescription glasses. I know I paid $1500 for mine (I’ve got a lot going on in my prescription) and would be distraught if I left them behind.

I lost my very expensive multifocal glasses on my first Camino in 2007! Didn't even know the forum existed. Took a taxi back to before the place I thought I lost them - I had put them on the ground when I changed something I was wearing I think - and spent a couple of hours retracing my steps. Anyway - glasses lost - a bit blind for the rest of the week. Went to the optometrist in Santiago - ordered a new fashionable pair much cheaper than home. Still a bit sightless, walked to Finistere, took the bus back, picked up my glasses and flew home. I contemplated the lesson and decided it was a big nudge to see things differently - in a new light.

 

[christy wharton]

Remember all the posts about blisters!!!. It was like every pilgrim had his or her own remedy. Well for new pilgrims. I started the Camino in Roncesvalles in 2007 age 63 and I got blisters and treated them with needle and thread and betadine and compeed. In fact I threaded my needles at home because the lighting in some crowded albergues was bad. After a few years I pondered 'why did I get blisters in Spain and not in Ireland?' 'Sweaty feet' was the answer so I decided prevention was better than cure and each morning on Camino, before putting on my socks I put antiperspirant on to my feet and I don't get blisters any more. If anyone could give me a tip to prevent exhaustion when walking in 28 degrees I would be very grateful.!

Start as early as you can and have breakfast along the way. Transferring a pack sometimes will help take in the surroundings even more especially later in the walk, and arrive fresher.

 

[dick bird]

'By the thirteenth century, a new class of bourgeois pilgrim began to appear. These individuals traveled in some comfort as if on a business or tourist trip and by the fourteenth century only the very poor stayed at hospitals.' - Cohen, “In the Name of God and of Profit,” 137, quoted in The Medieval Pilgrimage Business ADRIAN R. BELL, RICHARD S. DALE

Interesting.

 

[Quahaug]

I am the “Ensuitepilgrim “ - I have had the experience of basic albergues when nought else was available- and I resolved never to use them again; I am able to use private albergues or small hotels and when organising many Caminos for my friendship groups I find this is the only way it is feasible- I don’t use private companies.
I use Booking.com, mainly or e- mail for accommodation and the wonderful Correos for luggage transfer. Average age 72….and counting . No rustling bags,wakeful head torches, nor wondering where I can lay my head after a day’s sauntering. It keeps small villages alive,too. AND
- We’re not taking up bunk beds that needier Pelegrinos seek. Yes, in 20 years on various Caminos there have been changes, but all the “ nostalgia”…well? The Frances bears the brunt of all the moons and groans above. Plenty of alternatives. Buen Camino to you all..on foot,on bikes, on horseback or wheelchair.

I guess I’m in your class. Just arranged my first Camino. I’m 78 and going from Sarria to SNtiago de Compostel. I’ve made it into a nine day trek because there is so much to see along the way and I want the time to go off trail and see all I can see. I’ve made arrangements at small B&Bs and hotels for en-suite private rooms because I sleep with a Cpap and I could see no alternativ. I’m 78 and heathy and walk several miles three or four times a week so I think I’ll be able to do 10 without too much difficulty. Any suggestions.

 

[joeboybollo]

I am on here only for at max 5 years but during that time I did not see a tremendous change. People still seem to have the same problems. Yes, sometimes I see questions where I think this is a different type of pilgrim than I am, but that is OK.
Also, on my last Camino in May I met mainly people who carried their own luggage, who suffered from blisters, from closed albergues and knee-pain, blisters, dehydration, too much rain and you name it.
Yes, I also had the feeling that between Melide and Santiago there were more people with nicely done hair, aftershave and fashionable clothes and tiny day-packs than 4 years ago, the majority was suffering as always
I would agree a new type of pilgrim (or whatever you like to call him) has arrived especially on the Francés, but this is more an addition, not a replacement I think.

Yes,more an addition than a replacement.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Perhaps the modern reality may have changed our experiences from previous years but that may be because of unrealistic expectations. The world is rapidly changing
We live in the internet age of Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. We live in an age of "see, be seen and heard" and crave and romanticize of a time gone past which can never return. We live in a world of "Influencers"(or should that be manipulators) the followers and followed.
We travel to a land(s) we are privileged, and able, to witness with a sense of entitlement and "right". Where the over-riding importance is ourselves. A land where dogs should not bark and protect. No-one should snore. Cathedral doors should never be replaced. Drones should never exist and, to some, the most religious, devout and spiritual person may not be termed a pilgrim...because they ride a bike. ..the list is endless.
As a lover of irony (and alcohol although in no particular order). If the culture of the camino has changed to its detriment then all must take the responsibility of it being a victim of it's own success.

 

[David]

Dang! Bristle Boy - that is a good post!!!

 

[joeboybollo]

As with any community or group of people, things change... some like it, some don't. But the change is alway there. Pilgrims walking into Compostela 100 years ago would not like that fact that pilgrims these days take an airplane to get home... a 100 years ago, people took a boat of walked home again.

Yes,simple really.Things change,well there's a surprise-not! I remember when snooker coverage was in black and whiteI also remember when social media as it is today was unheard of. But thats life isn't it.

 

[markie6]

If the culture of the camino has changed to its detriment then all must take the responsibility of it being a victim of it's own success.

Does this mean we have done something wrong ? If there is a victim ...

Perhaps it has been made too easy ... by us ... for us but I guess that has been happening since the 1200's

 

[Peregrinopaul]

I’m sitting at a cafe in Carrion, rejoicing in the knowledge that I have cancelled my BdotComs.

 

[joeboybollo]

You need to get somewhere with a really healthy declination, like this spot in Aotearoa/New Zealand

You clicked here:
Latitude: 38° 19' 8.8" S
Longitude: 184° 1' 21.1" W
Magnetic Declination: +21° 13'
Declination is POSITIVE (EAST)
Inclination: 63° 49'
Magnetic field strength: 54067.7 nT

There are some islands that you probably cannot get too on your normal cruise liner to walk, like this:

You clicked here:
Latitude: 53° 8' 46.9" S
Longitude: 286° 29' 56.5" W
Magnetic Declination: -61° 55'
Declination is NEGATIVE (WEST)
Inclination: 70° 41'
Magnetic field strength: 51387.4 nT

Crikey,I haven't got a clue about what all those letters and numbers mean and I'm feeling more than a little bit inadequate

 

[Bristle Boy]

This is merely an observation.
Perhaps the first sentence in the second paragraph of the Original post goes some way towards answering and explaining the last.

 

[dougfitz]

Crikey,I haven't got a clue about what all those letters and numbers mean and I'm feeling more than a little bit inadequate

Hmm, then it's probably a bit excessive to give you the full course in land navigation using a topographic map, compass and protractor that would make these things much clearer. Don't feel too bad. The forum test is being able to navigate from one side of Spain to the other using the maps in a Brierley guide. Superior marks go to those that did this before or without Brierley, and who don't rely on a mapping app in a smartphone

 

[Bradypus]

The forum test is being able to navigate from one side of Spain to the other using the maps in a Brierley guide. Superior marks go to those that did this before or without Brierley, and who don't rely on a mapping app in a smartphone

Thanks for that @dougfitz! I'm now feeling comfortably smug. I walked my first two Caminos before Brierley's guide was first published. And my first Camino was in the last year before digital mobile phones and the World Wide Web reached the public. And I've never used the Blessed JB's guides on any of my Caminos. Do I get all three gold stars or just the one?

 

[Kirkie]

Thanks for that @dougfitz! I'm now feeling comfortably smug. I walked my first two Caminos before Brierley's guide was first published. And my first Camino in the last year before digital mobile phones and the World Wide Web reached the public. And I've never used the Blessed JB's guides on any of my Caminos. Do I get all three gold stars or just the one?

 

[dougfitz]

Thanks for that @dougfitz! I'm now feeling comfortably smug. I walked my first two Caminos before Brierley's guide was first published. And my first Camino in the last year before digital mobile phones and the World Wide Web reached the public. And I've never used the Blessed JB's guides on any of my Caminos. Do I get all three gold stars or just the one?

Well, I only get a basic pass on this! You would have thought that I might have devised a test where I at least got a star. But getting three - that's a real achievement.

 

[C clearly]

Don's recent thread about the flood of posts about lost glasses made me notice that there are many long time topics that seldom are posted now.

Whatever happened to the weekly. daily, or less threads and posts concerning pack weight and how to manage it?
Are most newer pilgrims much stronger than past ones? or....is the weight no longer a concern as many pilgrims are transporting their "luggage".

The conversations have greatly changed and many of the long time contributors are now missing in the forum. Much experience has been lost.

This is merely an observation.
Perhaps the first sentence in the second paragraph of the Original post goes some way towards answering and explaining the last.

The OP is quoted above for convenience. I have puzzled about how the first sentence in the second paragraph of the OP might explain the last, but still don't understand. The last what - sentence in the OP? I don't get it.

My view is that over 5, 10 or 15 years, many forum members move on - for various reasons, some sad but others happy. I don't expect to be very active here on the forum in 15 years. However, the experience of these members is not lost - it is documented here on the forum, and many new members have learned and expanded upon it. We are fortunate that some old-time members continue to read and contribute occasionally.

 

[C clearly]

When I first joined this site, there was a brilliant side panel with key words such as boots, poles, bed bugs etc and clicking on them brought up the thread. Maybe it needs reinstating in some form to help newbies who don't know that the website can be searched?!!!!!

That "cloud" of tags is still available. Go to the main Forums page here, scroll to the bottom to see "Camino tags". Click on any one of them to find posts on the topic.

surely they buy two pairs of really cheap glasses and leave their designer ones at home?

Don't be so dismissive of others! No number of really cheap glasses will give me the vision I need to see well at different distances. My regular glasses are carefully "designed" to meet my vision needs, not my fashion desires, and they are quite expensive. I do take a second pair (not quite the latest prescription, though) as a back up, but it would certainly be worth some effort to find my primary ones if I lost them.

 

[Bradypus]

I do take a second pair (not quite the latest prescription, though) as a back up, but it would certainly be worth some effort to find my primary ones if I lost them.

Me too. For years now I have worn varifocals which allow me to see pin-sharp at almost all distances. An accident on my most recent Camino left me wearing my spare cheap single-vision lens glasses for a couple of hours while a very helpful optician in Najera repaired my main pair. A dreadful experience (but thankfully short) after all these years of excellent sight! I did order a new pair on my return to the UK and now my spare pair are good quality varifocals too.

 

[dbier]

Random notes:

There are a few of us holdouts who don't maintain a social media presence. No FB, no Instagram, no SnapChat, no TikTok....not even LinkedIn. So whatever wisdom may exist on social media is lost to me, unless it's repeated here or on a website.

I didn't know about or use this forum prior to my first Camino, but have been distressingly ever-present since then, and have used it extensively prior to my hoped for 2nd.

Also, my very expensive glasses now exist in two complete pairs, both of which are going with me in Sept (God willing). Between multifocal (very necessary) and transition (don't need sunglasses), I am severely hampered without them, and even in the US, should I need a new pair, it would take a minimum of a week to replace.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Also, there are a few of us holdouts who don't maintain a social media presence. No FB, no Instagram, no SnapChat, no TikTok....not even LinkedIn.

I didn't know about or use this forum prior to my first Camino, but have been distressingly ever-present since then, and have used it extensively prior to my hoped for 2nd.

Your words speak for me, too.

 

[C clearly]

There are a few of us holdouts who don't maintain a social media presence.

Hmm. This forum is a social media platform. See wikipedia definition.

 

[dbier]

You are correct per Wikipedia.

However, hopefully you know about me only what I am comfortable sharing, unlike those platforms that monetize my personal information and run algorithms on my searching and viewing preferences.

Of course, the day I find I'm wrong, we will politely part ways. ;-)

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Hmm. This forum is a social media platform. See wikipedia definition.

I don't need wiki to tell me I am a member of this social media platform; I already knew this forum is one.

Btw, my reasons to avoid he other popular sites is personal.That said, Google knows a lot about me anyway. We fool no one really by avoiding the biggie platforms.

 

[CWBuff]

Those places most fond to me are best kept secret not to draw too much attention to them.

It is exactly like some of the Travel Websites and\or Magazines - Dont go to <insert name of a big tourist attraction city here> Instead discover this quaint little peaceful gem....
Next thing you know - there are hordes of folks, cruise ships galore (if applicable) and AirB&Bs are snapping up all the properties....
There are talks already a-plenty that chances are del Norte is the "next Frances" so perhaps the best road is the road least traveled (and spoken of)

 

[CWBuff]

Hang on, if in life there is no constant but only change then that would make change a constant

And there you have it.....
We are constantly changing or changing constantly.
Or should that be adapting?

I thought that it was death and taxes.

As one Emperor would quip "Too Many Notes"

 

[grayland]

Hmm. This forum is a social media platform. See wikipedia definition.

However...Wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source of information. Anyone can post an opinion as fact and anyone can then edit that opinion. Thus...Wikipedia is a source of opinions, but not necessarily based on reliable facts.

"...Criticisms of Wikipedia include assertions that its openness makes it unreliable and unauthorative. Because articles don't include bylines, authors aren't publicly accountable for what they write. Similarly, because anyone can edit any article, the site's entries are vulnerable to unscrupulous edits. "

 

[C clearly]

Wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source of information.

Absolutely! However, I was looking for a definition of what "social media" generally means, so perhaps Wikipedia is not a bad place to look. There are other online dictionaries that have similar definitions for "social media", and my main point was that the Camino Forum seems to fit within them all.

 

[Bristle Boy]

The OP is quoted above for convenience. I have puzzled about how the first sentence in the second paragraph of the OP might explain the last, but still don't understand. The last what - sentence in the OP? I don't get it.

My view is that over 5, 10 or 15 years, many forum members move on - for various reasons, some sad but others happy. I don't expect to be very active here on the forum in 15 years. However, the experience of these members is not lost - it is documented here on the forum, and many new members have learned and expanded upon it. We are fortunate that some old-time members continue to read and contribute occasionally.

I shouldn't have been so lazy and made others work too hard.
The premise of the thread is that the culture of the forum has changed...sadly.
I'm not sure that, of the two examples used that this necessarily is a culture change.
I will take the second point first, the absence of long established members who don't seem to have a forum presence like they used to. I will go a lot further. They are not only missed but are a massive loss to this forum.
When I joined this forum many of these contributors were a focal point of my reading. I owe them a debt of gratitude and applaud the "heavy lifting" that they did so nicely. I have not just noticed their absence recently...i have noticed this for a long time.
The first example that was given of less posts regarding pack weights i do not miss. I rejoice there is less repetition and duplication. You could add many other "questions" in this category. If the new members are using this forum resource...resourcefully or should be directed to previous threads and replies (of which there are many) this might prove to be an improvement.
Like a few members here I only belong to one social media platform (this forum....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck)
Lastly, this forum is nothing without its members and the only way to be sure as to why long standing members no longer contribute is....to ask them.
I'm sure one personal message addressed to all the absent members is not beyond the capabilities of the staff of this forum. It would reinforce and acknowledge their contributions in the past. Ask a straight forward question you might get a straight forward answer.
Call it a focus group exercise.

 

[AnneMarie1]

I thought a lot of how hardcore those pilgrims were. As hard as it was to walk to Santiago, they had to walk home.

I’m on the Camino now and am also thinking about them. Horrible shoes, no hot showers, and no sunblock. They must have just worn long everything and a hat. No yellow arrows, either. On the other hand, in a lot of places, the route they took was much easier than what we do now. They would have traveled on the route that is now occupied by the major roads, not looping around all these mountains and looking down at the valley level where the road is!

 

[CWBuff]

Horrible shoes, no hot showers, and no sunblock. They must have just worn long everything and a hat. No yellow arrows, either. On the other hand, in a lot of places, the route they took was much easier than what we do now. They would have traveled on the route that is now occupied by the major roads, not looping around all these mountains and looking down at the valley level where the road is!

and no planes to take them back home....
what you dont know you dont miss
who knows, in the Year 2525 (if Pilgrims still alive) - they will be looking at us and going MG!!!

 

[peregrina2000]

However...Wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source of information. Anyone can post an opinion as fact and anyone can then edit that opinion. Thus...Wikipedia is a source of opinions, but not necessarily based on reliable facts.

Absolutely!

Sorry, @grayland and @C clearly, but I think that if you dig a bit you will see numerous studies that conclude that wikipedia is a very reliable resource. Not perfect, but very good. Here are a few, but there are lots more.

Evidence suggests Wikipedia is accurate and reliable. When are we going to start taking it seriously?

They say you can’t trust Wikipedia, but research suggests that the sheer number of people contributing and reviewing information means it is likely as accurate as competing encyclopaedias.

www.smh.com.au

Canisius University - Andrew L. Bouwhuis, S.J. Library: Wikipedia: Is Wikipedia Accurate?

This guide will help you to use Wikipedia in an appropriate way to get background and bibliographic information.

library.canisius.edu

Students are told not to use Wikipedia for research. But it’s a trustworthy source

At a time when it’s increasingly difficult to separate truth from falsehood, Wikipedia is an accessible tool for fact-checking and fighting misinformation.

theconversation.com

The editing system and peer control are complicated and rigorous.

I don’t mind throwing in this off-topic observation because this thread has already done quite a bit of its own meandering.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The forum test is being able to navigate from one side of Spain to the other using the maps in a Brierley guide.

What is this "Brierley" that people talk of ?

Are the yellow arrows not sufficient to their purpose ?

 

[CWBuff]

Re above: Evidence suggests Wikipedia is Accurate and Reliable
...and the source is....?

As a serious scholar of ACW I have to go with
"Don’t believe everything you read on the internet"
Abraham Lincoln

 

[JabbaPapa]

Me too. For years now I have worn varifocals which allow me to see pin-sharp at almost all distances. An accident on my most recent Camino left me wearing my spare cheap single-vision lens glasses for a couple of hours while a very helpful optician in Najera repaired my main pair. A dreadful experience (but thankfully short) after all these years of excellent sight! I did order a new pair on my return to the UK and now my spare pair are good quality varifocals too.

Broke my specs on the way up to Santiago on the Português, then they were utterly wrecked at Potomarín.

SHRUG

Went 4 or 5 months without, hated it, but the Camino provided.

 

[C clearly]

As a serious scholar of ACW

And how would we know what "ACW" means? I googled, but the only likely definition was on Wikipedia.

 

[peregrina2000]

Re above: Evidence suggests Wikipedia is Accurate and Reliable
...and the source is....?

Not sure what this means, because if you read the article, you will see the evidence. This is a secondary source, true, but with a lot of references and links to actual studies. My only point here is to push back against the frequent perception that using wikipedia is like getting your facts from instagram and twitter.

Wikipedia itself has a highly footnoted discussion of its reliability.

Reliability of Wikipedia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bradypus]

Broke my specs on the way up to Santiago on the Português, then they were utterly wrecked at Potomarín.

SHRUG

Went 4 or 5 months without, hated it, but the Camino provided.

That would not have been safe for me. My uncorrected sight is extremely poor - so much so that without glasses anything more than six inches from my nose is badly blurred and I would be at risk of stumbling over obstacles on any but the flattest of surfaces.

 

[CWBuff]

Not sure what this means, because if you read the article, you will see the evidence.

I did it "tongue-in-cheek" implying that the source is "the internet"

And how would we know what "ACW" means? I googled, but the only likely definition was on Wikipedia.

You're right... i googled ACW ang got 19,700,000 results incl. A-COLD-WALL, American Cord and Webbing & Advanced Converting Works among many others. Only Wiki suggested that it may refer to American Civil War
(But wouldn't Honest Abe be a giveaway or do we have to google "Honest Abe"? )

Sorry... I'm just having too much fun today

 

[dougfitz]

You're right... i googled ACW ang got 19,700,000 results incl. A-COLD-WALL, American Cord and Webbing & Advanced Converting Works among many others. Only Wiki suggested that it may refer to American Civil War
(But wouldn't Honest Abe be a giveaway or do we have to google "Honest Abe"?

Don't expect those from other countries to understand this. These seem to be in-jokes for those members from the US, and perhaps not even all of them.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Not sure what this means, because if you read the article, you will see the evidence. This is a secondary source, true, but with a lot of references and links to actual studies. My only point here is to push back against the frequent perception that using wikipedia is like getting your facts from instagram and twitter.

Wikipedia itself has a highly footnoted discussion of its reliability.

Reliability of Wikipedia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wikipedia is generally reliable on generalities and on many topics of trivial nature -- but it's useless on anything of a contentious nature, where it becomes politicised, or if what you need is more in-depth and specialist, where it becomes useless.

But it's usually good at least as a crib.

 

[nycwalking]

Wikipedia is generally reliable on generalities and on many topics of trivial nature -- but it's useless on anything of a contentious nature, where it becomes politicised, or if what you need is more in-depth and specialist, where it becomes useless.

But it's usually good at least as a crib.

A crib?

Noted.

This threads a crib.

It’s nearly 1am.

Taking off my glasses and going to sleep in my bed within my crib.

 

[dougfitz]

A crib?

Perhaps used in this meaning: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/cheat+sheet

 

[Felice]

Wikipedia is generally reliable on generalities and on many topics of trivial nature -- but it's useless on anything of a contentious nature, where it becomes politicised, or if what you need is more in-depth and specialist, where it becomes useless.

But it's usually good at least as a crib.

Just looked up Camino de Santiago on Wikipedia for a laugh. First thing you see is that in Jan 2023 is that the factual accuracy of the map is disputed.
I think most on here would dispute it too.
So much for wiki's reliability.
I completely agree with JabbaPapa's assessment.

 

[dougfitz]

Just looked up Camino de Santiago on Wikipedia for a laugh. First thing you see is that in Jan 2023 is that the factual accuracy of the map is disputed.
I think most on here would dispute it too.
So much for wiki's reliability.
I completely agree with JabbaPapa's assessment.

The map is disputed because of its depiction of Austria adjoining Italy to the east, and not Croatia and Slovenia, which are not depicted. This might be justified in much the same way as we accept any schematic map as being a general representation, not necessarily being scaled to be dimensionally accurate. Unless you are a Croatian or Slovenian, when it might be annoying not to have your country depicted.

I fail to see how this is a reason to doubt Wikipedia's reliability. This is a matter of accuracy of the content, and as we have seen here, there is considerable scope for differing views about this. Reading the article's Talk page reveals a similar level of debate about the content as we seem to have here from time to time. More importantly, the debate over what might or might not be included is held in public, as we do too, and is not the province of some elite editorial team who don't discuss their reasons for including or excluding the material that is, or may not be, published.

 

[Felice]

The map is disputed because of its depiction of Austria adjoining Italy to the east, and not Croatia and Slovenia, which are not depicted. This might be justified in much the same way as we accept any schematic map as being a general representation, not necessarily being scaled to be dimensionally accurate. Unless you are a Croatian or Slovenian, when it might be annoying not to have your country depicted.

I fail to see how this is a reason to doubt Wikipedia's reliability. This is a matter of accuracy of the content, and as we have seen here, there is considerable scope for differing views about this. Reading the article's Talk page reveals a similar level of debate about the content as we seem to have here from time to time. More importantly, the debate over what might or might not be included is held in public, as we do too, and is not the province of some elite editorial team who don't discuss their reasons for including or excluding the material that is, or may not be, published.

I was not talking about the wiki dispute. I was talking about missing routes. And what are all those routes in the UK about - what is that route that goes from Bristol to London north of Oxford? I've not heard of a camino there.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Don't expect those from other countries to understand this. These seem to be in-jokes for those members from the US, and perhaps not even all of them.

It is not only a US thing. I notice occasional in-jokes from members of other countries, as well. I think we all do it sometimes unknowingly, not thinking of the full spectrum of all who may be reading them and lack the understanding. I have googled words and phrases many times to figure what they mean.

 

[dougfitz]

It is not only a US thing.

I agree, but that wasn't what I suggested in this case. And yes, we are probably all guilty of doing it from time to time. It is in the nature of the English language that there are national and regional differences in meaning that lead to misunderstanding, but might also be exploited for comic effect!

 

[dick bird]

wisdom may exist on social media

An oxymoron, surely.

A crib?

Aka ´hack´ or cheat or short cut

 

[NorthernLight]

I’m on the Camino now and am also thinking about them. Horrible shoes, no hot showers, and no sunblock. They must have just worn long everything and a hat. No yellow arrows, either. On the other hand, in a lot of places, the route they took was much easier than what we do now. They would have traveled on the route that is now occupied by the major roads, not looping around all these mountains and looking down at the valley level where the road is!

Except that those pilgrims would have to veer off those roads in order to avoid the toll collectors and areas with reports of highway robbers. They’d turn into the woods and hills to avoid those and instead face wolves and other dangers. They would have followed directions given by returnees or by locals (if they understood them - of course, go back far enough and Latin would have helped).

They may have been far more ‘comfortable’ with sleeping on the ground than we are today.

 

[auburnfive]

We had a saying at work… the only person who likes change is a baby in a wet diaper.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

An oxymoron, surely.

Aka ´hack´ or cheat or short cut

Yes, surely.

Other types of US "cribs"...

Baby crib.


Corn crib.

 

[dick bird]

Except that those pilgrims would have to veer off those roads in order to avoid the toll collectors and areas with reports of highway robbers. They’d turn into the woods and hills to avoid those and instead face wolves and other dangers. They would have followed directions given by returnees or by locals (if they understood them - of course, go back far enough and Latin would have helped).

They may have been far more ‘comfortable’ with sleeping on the ground than we are today.

To reply to this and turn it back to the original question, the camino as we see it now may actually be closer to what it was in mediaeval times. Back in the day, there would have been a huge range of types of pilgrims from the most exalted and wealthy travelling in the luxury and comfort to which they had always been accustomed, to the humblest and poorest travelling with the dogged resistance that had kept them alive since birth, with not a few marginal types begging or worse, preying on their fellow pilgrims. As for how seriously they took their pilgrimage, again there would have been a wide range if Geoffrey Chaucer is anything to go by. At least the camino is a lot safer now with the Guardia Civil probably doing a much better job than the Knights Templar. The ease and safety have made the camino less of an adventure than it used to be, and the internet has meant information is easier to find and so are bookings and reservations. but you can still walk and stay in albergues and meet other pilgrims, that hasn´t changed, and at the risk of incurring the wrath of henrythedog, may I suggest other caminos? Spain is an endlessly fascinating country and you don´t get much idea of it by walking the Camino Francés. We can´t turn the clock back, as Marcel Proust pointed out at some length but there are endless new experiences to be had if we know where to look, and after 71 years I´m still trying to figure that out. Buen camino.

 

[dick bird]

Baby crib.

Yeah, actually it means that in the rest of the anglophone world. ´Crib´ as a form of cheating is pretty well English schoolboy slang, pretty old fashioned and I doubt if my sons would know what it meant. Stands back and waits for deluge of contradictions from fellow forum members.

 

[markie6]

Hmmm I wouldn't have fancied walking the Camino during the Inquisition ...nobody would have expected that ... nor would I have invited many pilgrims back to my crib

With regard to the OP and the thread ... many come and many go. This website and indeed its purpose will go on

 

[Camino Chrissy]

nor would I have invited many pilgrims back to my crib

Oh yes, another crib; slang for our home, dwelling, apartment or flat.

 

[nycwalking]

An oxymoron, surely.

Aka ´hack´ or cheat or short cut

Speaking of which, are crib notes still available for college kids to purchase?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Speaking of which, are crib notes still available for college kids to purchase?

Are there even more definitions? "And the beat goes on." (Sonny & Cher)

 

[Bradypus]

Are there even more definitions? "And the beat goes on." (Sonny & Cher)

Where I live 'crib' has some other meanings too.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I fail to see how this is a reason to doubt Wikipedia's reliability.

I've not even glanced at it, but I greatly doubt that if I looked at their Camino article, I might be motivated to do anything other than rip it to shreds.

Specialist discussion of the Camino in here is FAR more pertinent than whatever superficial nonsense might have been typed about it in that place.

 

[JabbaPapa]

To reply to this and turn it back to the original question, the camino as we see it now may actually be closer to what it was in mediaeval times. Back in the day, there would have been a huge range of types of pilgrims from the most exalted and wealthy travelling in the luxury and comfort to which they had always been accustomed, to the humblest and poorest travelling with the dogged resistance that had kept them alive since birth, with not a few marginal types begging or worse, preying on their fellow pilgrims. As for how seriously they took their pilgrimage, again there would have been a wide range if Geoffrey Chaucer is anything to go by. At least the camino is a lot safer now with the Guardia Civil probably doing a much better job than the Knights Templar. The ease and safety have made the camino less of an adventure than it used to be, and the internet has meant information is easier to find and so are bookings and reservations. but you can still walk and stay in albergues and meet other pilgrims, that hasn´t changed, and at the risk of incurring the wrath of henrythedog, may I suggest other caminos? Spain is an endlessly fascinating country and you don´t get much idea of it by walking the Camino Francés. We can´t turn the clock back, as Marcel Proust pointed out at some length but there are endless new experiences to be had if we know where to look, and after 71 years I´m still trying to figure that out. Buen camino.

Yep.

 

[dougfitz]

I've not even glanced at it, but I greatly doubt that if I looked at their Camino article, I might be motivated to do anything other than rip it to shreds.

Specialist discussion of the Camino in here is FAR more pertinent than whatever superficial nonsense might have been typed about it in that place.

Really. It would appear from this that you will never know how good or bad it might be. It seems you are prepared to be guided by your prejudices, rather than actually discovering whether the contributions of others, who might be just as erudite about the Camino as the members of this forum, have created a contribution that is worth reading.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Really. It would appear from this that you will never know how good or bad it might be. It seems you are prepared to be guided by your prejudices, rather than actually discovering whether the contributions of others, who might be just as erudite about the Camino as the members of this forum, have created a contribution that is worth reading.

I doubt that exciting me towards an actual critique might produce what you imagine.

Certainly, I've not even looked at it, and who knows if I might be pleasantly surprised ? Then again I accused nobody of "prejudice" sight unseen ...

I made a general comment about the reliability or occasional lack thereof, and the intrinsic limitations in it, of Wikipedia. That overall it is OK, but it has intrinsic limitations and occasional failures.

Not sure what the drama is -- if I describe certain sections of this or that Camino as being better or worse for walking in my opinion, it's completely neutral towards others. No different here.

 

[David Tallan]

However...Wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source of information. Anyone can post an opinion as fact and anyone can then edit that opinion. Thus...Wikipedia is a source of opinions, but not necessarily based on reliable facts.

"...Criticisms of Wikipedia include assertions that its openness makes it unreliable and unauthorative. Because articles don't include bylines, authors aren't publicly accountable for what they write. Similarly, because anyone can edit any article, the site's entries are vulnerable to unscrupulous edits. "

But bad edits can be quickly corrected. I remember a fact check comparison between Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica (back when the latter was still a thing). Wikipedia fared well. One of the factors was that errors (they both had them, no matter how many editors EB had, or how qualified the article authors were, errors still crept in) were fixed more quickly, whereas in EB, as a fixed print product, they tended to stick around.

This is what I was remembering: https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/study-wikipedia-as-accurate-as-britannica/ (2005)

That said, this article had different findings: https://www.researchgate.net/public...racy_breadth_and_depth_in_historical_articles (2008)

Then this one again said Wikipedia fared well against EB: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EPIC_Oxford_report.pdf

It is hard to find anything more recent, probably because so few people are consulting EB any more.

 

[David Tallan]

Re above: Evidence suggests Wikipedia is Accurate and Reliable
...and the source is....?

As a serious scholar of ACW I have to go with
"Don’t believe everything you read on the internet"
Abraham Lincoln

The original source was an article published in Nature, a peer-reviewed journal in 2005. I don't have the exact citation but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

[grayland]

Kind of refreshing to have a rambling thread that really goes no where and offends no one.

This does bring back a bit of the old forum. Hopefully, it won't be closed due to the very interesting changing subject.

Leave it be.

 

[CWBuff]

Kind of refreshing to have a rambling thread that really goes no where and offends no one.

Wait - are you saying "we all are just rambling on with nowhere to go?"
That's .... FFENSIVE!!!!

 

[David Tallan]

Wait - are you saying "we all are just rambling on with nowhere to go?"
That's .... FFENSIVE!!!!

We need a destination for it to be a pilgrimage.

 

[GettingThere]

Kind of refreshing to have a rambling thread that really goes no where and offends no one.

I was just thinking exactly the same! One of the things I've always loved about this forum is the way discussions can meander back and forth from the original topic, mostly without getting too heated. Some fascinating information can be shared, and the world expands just a little. It's lovely to see that some things don't change!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I like the word "meandering" that @peregrina2000 introduced on this thread. It is a bit softer sounding than going "off piste", where I sometimes can get in a bit of trouble.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

what you dont know you dont miss

That's what my mama used to say, but OTOH, she did have a very sheltered life on the farm, and didn't experience much otside that prior to marriage and then raising five kids. She didn't know how to ride a bike or drive a car.

 

[dbier]

We need a destination for it to be a pilgrimage.

No, we just need to be looking for it...

 

[CWBuff]

No, we just need to be looking for it...

through the rosey-colored (preferably lost) glasses!

 

[Bristle Boy]

Perhaps it isn't necessary to worry or focus on change and just accept the fact that when it comes to the forum, some moderators and members there is a consistent inconsistency.

 

[Barbara]

I was not talking about the wiki dispute. I was talking about missing routes. And what are all those routes in the UK about - what is that route that goes from Bristol to London north of Oxford? I've not heard of a camino there.

I think you will find that Bristol was a place to get a boat. But anyway, all pilgrims started from home so there are as many camino routes as there were pilgrims.

 

[WGroleau]

For me, it is not a problem, because the forum will outlast me, …

Provided Ivar can find someone willing to take over. I have a large site full of genealogy and family history (all relatives, not general). Not one of my relatives has responded to any of my several queries for someone to take it over. Not even the ones that have genealogy as a hobby.

 

[HappyValerie]

And there you have it.....
We are constantly changing or changing constantly.
Or should that be adapting?

I think we are also constantly charging! 1

 

[dick bird]

I was not talking about the wiki dispute. I was talking about missing routes. And what are all those routes in the UK about - what is that route that goes from Bristol to London north of Oxford? I've not heard of a camino there.

Pilgrimage routes are or were not necessarily routes to Santiago. There are traditional pilgrimage sites all over Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter). In England, pilgrimages to Canterbury, Walsingham, Glastonbury and Reading were particularly popular. These are in addition to routes used to get to embarkation points for Rome, Santiago and the Holy Land.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I was not talking about the wiki dispute. I was talking about missing routes. And what are all those routes in the UK about - what is that route that goes from Bristol to London north of Oxford? I've not heard of a camino there.

Apologies if this has appeared elsewhere.
Hope this helps.

https://britishpilgrimage.org/routes/

 

[dougfitz]

Apologies if this has appeared elsewhere.
Hope this helps.

https://britishpilgrimage.org/routes/

I was just thinking exactly the same thing. BZ!

 

[Felice]

Apologies if this has appeared elsewhere.
Hope this helps.

https://britishpilgrimage.org/routes/

If you look at the map that you link to, you do not find a route that goes from Bristol, then heads north of Oxford and then on to London. That is the route shown on the map of Caminos on the wiki page that I am querying. I'd never heard of it, and the pilgrimage page seems to confirm my impression.

Btw, this discussion misses my original reason for posting, which was in response to Doug and wikipedia's reliability.

 

[Kathor1]

If you look at the map that you link to, you do not find a route that goes from Bristol, then heads north of Oxford and then on to London. That is the route shown on the map of Caminos on the wiki page that I am querying. I'd never heard of it, and the pilgrimage page seems to confirm my impression.
Btw, this discussion misses my original reason for posting, which was in response to Doug and wikipedia's reliability.

I understood your question and thought: "Well spotted". I had never noticed it in this map that is so ubiquitous online. Like you, I wondered about it and had a look around. I think I found an explanation: It has to do with the way the Ways to Saint James have been represented in maps since about 1960 when interest started to grow in the medieval pilgrimage to Santiago.

For details, see this website of the Spanish Geographical Institute IGN with a selection of their printed and digital maps. This selection shows "the evolution over time of the representation of the Caminos de Santiago in Spain and Europe". Between 1965 and 1993 they issued four maps in the context of a Holy Year.

In 1965, their map showed mainly the Camino Francés and the north of Spain.
In 1982, their map was similar to the previous one but more detailed.
In 1993, they issued two maps: One map for Spain with a number of "new" Caminos de Santiago added and one map for Europe. 1993 was a momentous year for the contemporary revival of walking to Santiago. The "four" widely publicised Caminos to Santiago with a start in France are differently coloured in this map but in general and outside of Spain the dominant markings are continuous yellow lines and dashed yellow lines. The latter mark "ways that are currently in the process of being identified" as the legend states. Below is a screenshot and a link to this 1993 IGN map. My guess is that the Wikipedia map was drawn by someone on the basis of this IGN map and it became popular because it was made freely available, i.e. without copyright (details in the Wikipedia article: their map was uploaded by Manfred Zentgraf, Volkach, Germany and that is or was an editor / journalist / author). So, a kind of blast from the past and immortalised now thanks to copious copy-pasting.

https://www.ign.es/web/resources/publicaciones/Camino-Santiago/index.html
https://www.ign.es/web/BibliotecaIGN/42-B-16_01.JPG

​

 

[Bristle Boy]

If you look at the map that you link to, you do not find a route that goes from Bristol, then heads north of Oxford and then on to London. That is the route shown on the map of Caminos on the wiki page that I am querying. I'd never heard of it, and the pilgrimage page seems to confirm my impression.

Btw, this discussion misses my original reason for posting, which was in response to Doug and wikipedia's reliability.

And this confirms what you thought and I hoped it might prove helpful.
I am only aware of one pilgrimage route...the one that passes fifty yards from my house.
Following your post I have looked at pilgrimage routes around Bristol (and Oxford) and there are some that are not detailed on either map much smaller in length and not solely restricted to the Catholic faith.
Sometimes accuracy and relying on the internet on one scource is not necessarily reliable.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I should add that there is a pilgrimage route of over 2000 miles in Britain,, solely dedicated for Bicigrinos, that takes in every Cathedral of the island should you wish to undertake it. The route of this is not covered on any internet map.

 

[HKim]

My heart goes out to those who never made it home. It reminds me that the scallop shell was the sign of the RETURNING pilgrim and NOT something to be picked up any time , anywhere.

Vaya con Dios

Samarkand.

One of my long-ago ancestors died on his Camino. From what I was told, his body was carried by his companions the rest of the way, and buried in Santiago de Compostela.

 

[norfolk-keith]

I am on here only for at max 5 years but during that time I did not see a tremendous change. People still seem to have the same problems. Yes, sometimes I see questions where I think this is a different type of pilgrim than I am, but that is OK.
Also, on my last Camino in May I met mainly people who carried their own luggage, who suffered from blisters, from closed albergues and knee-pain, blisters, dehydration, too much rain and you name it.
Yes, I also had the feeling that between Melide and Santiago there were more people with nicely done hair, aftershave and fashionable clothes and tiny day-packs than 4 years ago, the majority was suffering as always
I would agree a new type of pilgrim (or whatever you like to call him) has arrived especially on the Francés, but this is more an addition, not a replacement I think.

Hi Artic-Alex
I couldn't agree more. I had the same conversation with 2 pilgrims from Austria (not related) I walked with for many days.
They are like a new fashion accessory whilst I was covered in bruises, cuts and beard hadn't seen a trim in over 5 weeks so I looked pretty wild ha ha I also noticed they walked in packs and more or less took over anywhere they stopped and god forbid if you ended up in the same Albergue as them.
This was my 5th and last Camino walking the Frances route, I have felt the changes during the past 8 years some good some not so good, but what has changed more is myself. I lost the excitement I first had back in 2015 setting off for the first time, which lived with me until this year and I knew I wouldn't be walking the Camino Frances again.
Next year I am getting married so it's not possible but god willing I am still healthy enough I'm planning on walking the Camino Via de La PLata in 2025, now I'm excited again. Buen Camino Keith

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Hi Artic-Alex
I couldn't agree more. I had the same conversation with 2 pilgrims from Austria (not related) I walked with for many days.
They are like a new fashion accessory whilst I was covered in bruises, cuts and beard hadn't seen a trim in over 5 weeks so I looked pretty wild ha ha I also noticed they walked in packs and more or less took over anywhere they stopped and god forbid if you ended up in the same Albergue as them.
This was my 5th and last Camino walking the Frances route, I have felt the changes during the past 8 years some good some not so good, but what has changed more is myself. I lost the excitement I first had back in 2015 setting off for the first time, which lived with me until this year and I knew I wouldn't be walking the Camino Frances again.
Next year I am getting married so it's not possible but god willing I am still healthy enough I'm planning on walking the Camino Via de La PLata in 2025, now I'm excited again. Buen Camino Keith

Exactly, there is so much more than the Francés

I myself originally planned for the VdlP 2024, but I have to cancel that due to preparing a move ... and so I might do it the year after. So maybe see you then