Sexual harassment on Camino routes

[ShoshTrvls]

How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.

I think exhibitionism happens frequently enough that many of us simply turn away and quickly walk on. At least I have. More than once. And I’ve only had a total of 17 days on the Camino.

 

[SEB2]

I think exhibitionism happens frequently enough that many of us simply turn away and quickly walk on. At least I have. More than once. And I’ve only had a total of 17 days on the Camino.

Then in light of what I posted about the Sarah Everard case perhaps we might want to consider how such exhibitionism can be a precursor for more serious sexual assaults and ensure that when we witness any similar incidents it gets reported to the police - such information gathering helps the GC to keep people safe and it may also mean that the culprit is identified and suitable action is taken, so that any woman who doesn't react with your admirable sang-froide can be spared the distress of encountering the same man doing the same thing to her subsequently. I would not presume to know your own life experience but people who have been sexually abused in the past can be triggered in that distress by coming across predatory men acting in a manner that is aimed at instilling fear.

I didn't report my encounter with the man in Castrojeriz until I learned that he was a repeat offender spoiling the day for a host of peregrinas who were passing through and was provided through this forum with a route to make a report - I apologise to the women who came after me and had to deal with him when I might have been able to stop any further attacks by taking the time to speak to the GC on the day it occurred.

 

[MikeJS]

Seriously??

yes

 

[SabsP]

yes

Come on Mike! I know from your posts that you are an intelligent and nice man so I hope you understand that this is a serious matter? You did read the posts here I hope?
We established by now that the article could use some tweaking but the essence of the story is valid.

This thread made me think about my Caminos.
I told about one incident I should have gone further with.
But then there were other encounters that I did not found " worthwile " to complain about. The whistling of one guy to me, another French guy who kept insisting on walking with me even when I told him I preferred solitude. Another man who pulled his chair too close to mine etc etc...
Again : gutfeeling!
The same gutfeeling that told me that seven male pilgrims from Italy were ok in my room. Btw they told that French guy to go away!
They were so polite to undress while I was outside. And I could undress in the bathroom and when I entered lights were out. This was all not needed but what a nice touch after that horrid day with French guy. Who was ex military and used to giving orders. Ha and then he met sarcastic me and my Italian posse.

 

[dick bird]

yes

Well not really, no, firstly because you misquoted the number 9 as 5 (which undermines your point) and secondly because you write as if the nine interviewed were the only nine assaulted (obviously not the case) so some comeback was only to be expected.

Women, especially if they are on their own, are subjected to sexual harassment and assault. It happens everywhere, it happens on the camino. Whether it happens more or less on the camino is irrelevant. It shouldn't happen anywhere and we shouldn´t attempt to downplay it even if one newspaper article sensationalises it. We can at least be sympathetic and try to empathise and make some suggestions about addressing the problem.

In Spain, the Guardia Civil have put a lot of effort into making pilgrims feel safe and be safe, they deserve credit for that. The problem is that they can only enforce the law as it stands and they can't enforce it at all outside their jurisdiction, i.e. in towns and cities. There needs to be a change in the law in Spain and Portugal so that the definition of assault does not depend on physical contact and there needs to be a general policy of following up on all reports of sexual assault or harassment. That would be a start. Counselling and support for victims would also be helpful.

But nothing will happen unless the authorities perceive it as a problem, which is why reports to the police and in the press and discussion on social media are important.

 

[Dani7]

I have no other social media account other than this forum. Despite our different backgrounds, ages, cultures or nationalities it is a place where we can exchange views, learn and debate in an environment that encourages seeing both sides while adhering to a set of rules that foster tolerance and respect.

For this very important issue we all seem to be in agreement that no form of sexual harassment is ok, that sadly it exists everywhere, even on our beloved caminos and that the Guardia Civil and authorities are working to change this by supporting those that report.

If you ask any woman she will most likely have experienced some form of sexual harassment in the workplace, travelling, with known persons, relatives and people we thought loved us.

The more we report, the more we use our voice, the more men speak up to support us and teach by example, the more we educate our young children, girls and boys on what is acceptable behaviour and what is not…the more we will change our current «reality ». (I use that word to make a point). As a collective, we will no longer accept this is a reality but rather highlight that we will not tolerate it any longer. Change happens if we keep at it. And from all the posts made in this thread, looks like the consensus is that we must and we will.

What we do, what we say and how we say it…it all matters.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

As pilgrims on the camino…let’s watch out for each other and support each other and let’s speak up, report and make a difference…because we can.

Safe and buen camino

 

[chinacat]

@Dani7

It’s been a while since I’ve heard that Margaret Mead quote - thank you for the reminder
So simple and so powerful.

 

[MikeJS]

Well not really, no, firstly because you misquoted the number 9 as 5 (which undermines your point) and secondly because you write as if the nine interviewed were the only nine assaulted (obviously not the case) so some comeback was only to be expected.

Women, especially if they are on their own, are subjected to sexual harassment and assault. It happens everywhere, it happens on the camino. Whether it happens more or less on the camino is irrelevant. It shouldn't happen anywhere and we shouldn´t attempt to downplay it even if one newspaper article sensationalises it. We can at least be sympathetic and try to empathise and make some suggestions about addressing the problem.

In Spain, the Guardia Civil have put a lot of effort into making pilgrims feel safe and be safe, they deserve credit for that. The problem is that they can only enforce the law as it stands and they can't enforce it at all outside their jurisdiction, i.e. in towns and cities. There needs to be a change in the law in Spain and Portugal so that the definition of assault does not depend on physical contact and there needs to be a general policy of following up on all reports of sexual assault or harassment. That would be a start. Counselling and support for victims would also be helpful.

But nothing will happen unless the authorities perceive it as a problem, which is why reports to the police and in the press and discussion on social media are important.

Firstly, I had already emended the number mistake.

More importantly, I think this all misses the point. I am not denying the problem of violence against women (and in fact anybody), my issue is the article targeting the camino as if it was any riskier than anywhere else.

 

[Grahammac]

Firstly, I had already emended the number mistake.

More importantly, I think this all misses the point. I am not denying the problem of violence against women (and in fact anybody), my issue is the article targeting the camino as if it was any riskier than anywhere else.

The question that has followed this very concerning initial post has certainly focused people on the problem, which is good.
Question: what should a man/woman/group do if he/she/they notice the approach of a wooded or suspect area and they see a female walking alone?

 

[bellamira]

As a collective, we will no longer accept this is a reality but rather highlight that we will not tolerate it any longer.

I'm at this point! Well said, thank you.

 

[dick bird]

Firstly, I had already emended the number mistake.

More importantly, I think this all misses the point. I am not denying the problem of violence against women (and in fact anybody), my issue is the article targeting the camino as if it was any riskier than anywhere else.

I don´t think it misses the point at all. It is the point. The quality or otherwise of the original article is irrelevant. Whether the camino is more or less risky than walking down the High Street at one o'clock in the morning or afternoon is irrelevant. The camino can be risky for women. It shouldn´t be.

 

[Dani7]

The question that has followed this very concerning initial post has certainly focused people on the problem, which is good.
Question: what should a man/woman/group do if he/she/they notice the approach of a wooded or suspect area and they see a female walking alone?

A wooded or suspect area is not the danger. What would I do if I were walking alone and sensed something? I would be on alert of my surroundings…is there another pilgrim in front or behind me? I would have my whistle at the ready just in case…if I was fearful. And I would quicken my pace. If someone is lurking that I did not see, and you were near I know you and every other man or woman in this forum would be there to help.

 

[Glenshiro]

Seeing men pee - I admit - to me is offensive (not because of the pathetic noodle on display but because of issues with hygiene) but not threatening as I see it on a daily basis living in a multi-million European city.

Urinating in a public place is a criminal offence in most UK towns.

 

[Grahammac]

A wooded or suspect area is not the danger. What would I do if I were walking alone and sensed something? I would be on alert of my surroundings…is there another pilgrim in front or behind me? I would have my whistle at the ready just in case…if I was fearful. And I would quicken my pace. If someone is lurking that I did not see, and you were near I know you and every other man or woman in this forum would be there to help.

I00 percent agreed. However, my question is whether the people sensing danger should approach the female and warn them, risking rebuff especially in the case of a single male warning a single female.

 

[Dani7]

I00 percent agreed. However, my question is whether the people sensing danger should approach the female and warn them, risking rebuff especially in the case of a single male warning a single female.

If you are sensing danger you can be 100% sure the woman (or I) would be as well. There is no need to warn, we don’t need rescuing “in case something happens” just keep a watchful eye. Women have been dealing with sexual harassment most of our lives, we are not unaware of potential areas or situations of danger. We are usually hyper vigilant. If you sense real danger, we are too.

I don’t wear ear buds when I am walking. And if I sensed danger and you or another pilgrim was near I would ask if I could walk alongside for a bit and explain why.

 

[Dani7]

…and to add to my last comment. I cannot speak for other women or whether they would feel the need to “rebuff” any well intentioned male. Many of us have had bad experiences with men, either by sexual harassment, verbal or physical abuse or other. It does shape who we are and how we react and for many of us, it absolutely does not make us victims. It only makes us wiser.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

And if I sensed danger and you or another pilgrim was near I would ask if I could walk alongside for a bit and explain why.

Some woman asked me that during my walk in April/May 2015 because Denise was missing

 

[VNwalking]

what should a man/woman/group do if he/she/they notice the approach of a wooded or suspect area and they see a female walking alone

Nothing. Besides be alert yourself.
Unless you absolutely know from your own experience someone nefarious is lurking in there (eg, were you walking in the opposite direction and had already seen someone).

Thing is...as Dani already said, if you sense danger, most woman would have been aware of that well before you were.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Firstly, I had already emended the number mistake.

More importantly, I think this all misses the point. I am not denying the problem of violence against women (and in fact anybody), my issue is the article targeting the camino as if it was any riskier than anywhere else.

Nobody said it was riskier than anywhere else. The article sought to end the fallacy that the camino is safer than anywhere else. It is not. That is all. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you think women overblow their concerns, and that the whole thing is silly. You have *goaded* the survivor of a recent, violent assault. And you refuse to back off. I'd say that's a real commitment to being part of the problem.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .

I remember that guy well. I was working at San Anton in Castrojeriz during that time, and it took months of repeated visits to police, town authorities, and the care home where the man lived to finally get him off the street and into a situation where he got the care and supervision he needed. One of the policemen involve is in the group who formed the current Guardia Civil drive for Camino Safety. So yeah, it takes some time, but things change and improve if people don't just hush it up and shrug their shoulders.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I remember that guy well. I was working at San Anton in Castrojeriz during that time, and it took months of repeated visits to police, town authorities, and the care home where the man lived to finally get him off the street and into a situation where he got the care and supervision he needed. One of the policemen involve is in the group who formed the current Guardia Civil drive for Camino Safety. So yeah, it takes some time, but things change and improve if people don't just hush it up and shrug their shoulders.

I appreciate this reply very much because it recognises that someone with a cognitive impairment requires better care, better supervision, more protection -- not *punishment* -- *AND* also recognises the very real injury the expressed behaviour/activity can cause to the victim(s). Also 100% correct: shrugging it off and doing nothing helps nobody.

 

[SEB2]

I remember that guy well. I was working at San Anton in Castrojeriz during that time, and it took months of repeated visits to police, town authorities, and the care home where the man lived to finally get him off the street and into a situation where he got the care and supervision he needed. One of the policemen involve is in the group who formed the current Guardia Civil drive for Camino Safety. So yeah, it takes some time, but things change and improve if people don't just hush it up and shrug their shoulders.

Thank you for all that you did to find a positive solution for everyone Rebekah.
When I was being accosted physically by the man, I appealed for help from a man who was walking across the Plaza but he continued on his way and appeared to find the incident amusing.

 

[SabsP]

I appreciate this reply very much because it recognises that someone with a cognitive impairment requires better care, better supervision, more protection -- not *punishment* -- *AND* also recognises the very real injury the expressed behaviour/activity can cause to the victim(s). Also 100% correct: shrugging it off and doing nothing helps nobody.

Exactly.

I posted this on the forum in 2015.


I was walking the Portugues a month ago and on a certain etapa where there was only one bar during the 20 k. I stopped for a coffee and then started again my walk. On that particular stretch I was on my own as a walker but felt very safe : one hamlet after another and enough people going on with their business.
Then an old man came walking from a field ( holding some crops ) , it was clear that he was mentally a bit simpler ( don't seem to find the right word ) but not mentally ill ( I work in psychiatry and think I know one or two things about this ). Anyway he then came towards me and said something in Portugues and at same time he tried to touch my breasts. He tried , I must say because he was half my size. I then said in a stern voice that if he would try that I would kick him somewhere where it would hurt very badly ( in dutch of course ). He got the message. Then immediately two ladies ( one was his sister and the other a neighbour who understood english ) appeared and scolded him and shooed him into the house. He was just a simple man, living in a rural village, not able to do any real harm. And the ladies were very apologetic. And at same time we had an interesting conversation about lack of enough social services for mentally handicapped older people in Portugal.

I just wanted to write this down because I really think I handled this in a good way and reporting this to the police did not even come up in my mind.

 

[SabsP]

Some woman asked me that during my walk in April/May 2015 because Denise was missing

Good! She asked you! Such a difference than what was written by some men in earlier posts.

I will never forget you endeavours of bringing the shells for Denise from Santiago to Astorga.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Thank you for all that you did to find a positive solution for everyone Rebekah.
When I was being accosted physically by the man, I appealed for help from a man who was walking across the Plaza but he continued on his way and appeared to find the incident amusing.

My role was very minor. The muncipal hospitaleros were the champions.

 

[chinacat]

Nobody said it was riskier than anywhere else. The article sought to end the fallacy that the camino is safer than anywhere else. It is not. That is all. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you think women overblow their concerns, and that the whole thing is silly. You have *goaded* the survivor of a recent, violent assault. And you refuse to back off. I'd say that's a real commitment to being part of the problem.

I couldn’t say this any better.
Thank you, @Perambulating Griffin

To @MikeJS
You just don’t get it, do you?

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

I will never forget you endeavours of bringing the shells for Denise from Santiago to Astorga.

Dank je wel

 

[C clearly]

I am stunned by the amount of bitter accusation snd personal assumptions being heaped on a few individuals who probably are all on the same side and are decent people, but who arguably erred in their thinking and/or their expression. Some have deleted posts and left the thread.

This is no way to improve the world. It polarizes us unnecessarily and even harmfully.

 

[dick bird]

The original article was not well written. Women are subjected to harassment and assault in too many places, including on the Camino. This has to stop. I think those are three points we can all agree on. Since this thread is beginning to become acrimonious, and personal, it is probably time to close.

 

[bellamira]

I am stunned by the amount of bitter accusation snd personal assumptions being heaped on a few individuals who probably are all on the same side and are decent people, but who arguably erred in their thinking and/or their expression. Some have deleted posts and left the thread.

This is no way to improve the world. It polarizes us unnecessarily and even harmfully.

It would be nice if this approach was taken for every newby who experiences a pile on by veterans for asking innocent questions, also "arguably erred in their thinking". They're told not to take things so personally. I think the conversation here has been very honest. Confronting but honest.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I think the conversation here has been very honest. Confronting but honest.

Precisely.

This is no way to improve the world. It polarizes us unnecessarily and even harmfully.

I'm more stunned by the out of touch comments on this thread (which I've been closely following). It's predicable and tiresome. The impact of words is greater than intention behind them.

I don't see how one can expect people's reactions to this subject to not be polarizing.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Precisely.



I'm more stunned by the out of touch comments on this thread (which I've been closely following). It's predicable and tiresome. The impact of words is greater than intention behind them.

I don't see how one can expect people's reactions to this subject to not be polarizing.

I will also say that the world definitely won’t get better if we just accept abuse and assault and tell women to shut up and move along.

 

[C clearly]

There is just so much on this thread that is truly puzzling and disturbing to me.

No one is disagreeing with the essential issues of the existence of sexual harrassment and assault. No one has minimized or dismissed the individual assault experiences of women.

Nowhere do I see anyone telling women to just accept abuse and assault, shut up and move along. To suggest that people on this thread are doing so, is misleading, unfair and insulting. I have seen some comments about individuals' character and their intentions that seem to be unreasonable assumptions of the worst interpretation. I believe that the "out of touch" comments that some are complaining about are taken out of context and distorted. I was able to read most of those comments and perceive what I thought was the honest intent, which may have been somewhat misguided but they were not NOT evil.

I don't see how one can expect people's reactions to this subject to not be polarizing.

I do not understand why this must be so.

You may tell me that I am an old woman who is out of touch and has been part of the problem. Am I predictable and tiresome too?

Truly I feel marginalized here in this thread on a topic that I have lived with for over 70 years. This is not sisterhood.

 

[Dani7]

This thread definitely brought out many strong emotions about a problem women, young and old, have had to deal with at some point in our lives. Even I got caught up in the moment with the use of the word “hassle-free” that made me feel like the subject matter was being minimized and yet, I have no doubt now that not one man or woman for that matter, on this thread, feels this is not an important issue to address or acknowledge. An article was poorly written and poorly researched, by a writer that could have had good intentions to raise awareness and open discussions. So I am grateful to @henrythedog for posting it. Because it sure raised awareness on this forum, not just feelings.

To the solo women who are considering walking a camino, do it! Use the same common sense you would anywhere else to keep yourself safe. There will always be potential danger around us, don’t let that stop you from living your dream or your life.

And if you ever come across any man or woman who are members of this forum, we will do what 99.9% of pilgrims do…we watch out for each other.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

There is just so much on this thread that is truly puzzling and disturbing to me.

No one is disagreeing with the essential issues of the existence of sexual harrassment and assault. No one has minimized or dismissed the individual assault experiences of women.

I agree with what @C clearly is saying here, even though I experienced lewd and lascivious behavior by a stranger at age 20. It was very frightening, but I saw no opportunity to report it as I was riding on an "L train" in Chicago when it happened.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Since this thread is beginning to become acrimonious, and personal, it is probably time to close.

First of all we are all human, but my question to you is "Why do you want to close this thread?" because woman speak out and yes the truth is hard for some men.

 

[Margaret Butterworth]

I have walked many times on various Caminos. I prefer to walk alone, at my own pace. I've never been hassled or assaulted. I might add that I do not wear short shorts or skimpy tops, as I want to protect my skin from the weather. I'm also getting on in years. On my most recent Caminos, I did notice an increase in Civil Guard patrols driving back and forth along the way.

 

[SabsP]

I have walked many times on various Caminos. I prefer to walk alone, at my own pace. I've never been hassled or assaulted. I might add that I do not wear short shorts or skimpy tops, as I want to protect my skin from the weather. I'm also getting on in years. On my most recent Caminos, I did notice an increase in Civil Guard patrols driving back and forth along the way.

Even if you wear short tops or skimpy tops that is no reason to be molested or raped!
Women who chose this clothing must feel free and safe to do so.
And no I am not talking of going into churches that way , that is another discusssion.

Regarding " getting on in age " : I am happy for you that you never experienced assault on your various Caminos but sexual assaults against women are not limited to a certain age . We must only look at the current courtcases in France.

 

[Robo]

As a male Pilgrim, reading these articles and reports sickens me.
Reporting is so important.
Sadly these things have been happening for a long time, but the spotlight being brought by recent media reports, and posts like these on Social Media, can only help bring it further to the attention of authorities and bring awareness to new Pilgrims.
I will be making sure (as always) on our next (more remote) Camino my wife has a loud whistle and Alert Cops on her phone as we often walk out of sight of each other.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Even if you wear short tops or skimpy tops that is no reason to be molested or raped!
Women who chose this clothing must feel free and safe to do so.
And no I am not talking of going into churches that way , that is another discusssion.

Regarding " getting on in age " : I am happy for you that you never experienced assault on your various Caminos but sexual assaults against women is not limited to a certain age . We must only look at the current courtcases in France

Sadly we have walked into scenarios where it has almost become about damage limitation, rather than dealing with the root cause. Female taxi drivers for female customers, ‘female only’ floors in hotels, priority service for females for car break down, priority service for females for room service! All helpful with safety of course but hide the huge issue for 4billion people. Talking to a female friend last week about our business travel experiences. I loved taking spare time to visit places in the evening with no concerns about safety. She hated it, often confined to her room with room service, or finding safe places.

As a man I was badly sexually abused as a young boy (by another man), but I have never really worried about safety threats. I largely worked with females towards the end of my career and to hear the conversations for planning a night out were quite illuminating. I would just walk across the park and get the last bus home, for them it was a constant risk trade off… last bus, walk across park… yes / no. Economic factor too. Can I afford a taxi, etc. I know I stay in hotels in dodgy areas that females would not.

There was a great thread on social media a few years back. I cannot remember the exact question but it was about if women had guaranteed safely for one night what would they do. So many said they would love to go out for a late walk alone on a summer evening, but sadly didn’t feel safe. This is what is meant by ‘male privilege’ and I have had it for 58 years.

 

[SabsP]

Sadly we have walked into scenarios where it has almost become about damage limitation, rather than dealing with the root cause. Female taxi drivers for female customers, ‘female only’ floors in hotels, priority service for females for car break down, priority service for females for room service! All helpful with safety of course but hide the huge issue for 4billion people. Talking to a female friend last week about our business travel experiences. I loved taking spare time to visit places in the evening with no concerns about safety. She hated it, often confined to her room with room service, or finding safe places.

As a man I was badly sexually abused as a young boy (by another man), but I have never really worried about safety threats. I largely worked with females towards the end of my career and to hear the conversations for planning a night out were quite illuminating. I would just walk across the park and get the last bus home, for for them it was a constant risk trade off… last bus, walk across park… yes / no. Economic factor too. Can I afford a taxi, etc. I know I stay in hotels in dodgy areas that females would not.

There was a great thread on social media a few years back. I cannot remember the exact question but it was about if women had guaranteed safely for one night what would they do. So many said they would love to go out for a late walk alone on a summer evening, but sadly didn’t feel safe.

Thank you @TravellingMan22 for describing the risk trade off that many of us women feel when dealing with some options.
Thank you also for your openness about your abuse when you were a young boy. The sad fact that it can happen to young and old and all sexes.

I do not tell much about my line of work but sometimes we have to council sexual and other criminal offenders ( when they sat out part of their sentence in jail ). No, you can not see on their face what they have done.
They could have been your maths teacher, a libraryassistent, a dentist, a factoryworker or a hotshot manager.
And yes, there are also female sex offenders.