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I doubt it is a trend, it will be standard practice for many, both individual and business. Whether it’s airlines, restaurant bookings, or hotels, it’s common practice probably for the majority who plan to fine detail. I guess the reverse is folks who book a non refundable product and the can’t use it as their situation changes!I have used booking.com on my two most recent Caminos and have never double-booked to cancel last minute. If this is a current trend, it gives those of us who now choose to plan our lodging ahead of time to reduce stress while walking a potential "bad name" and is rather disappointing.
Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
I had much the same thought readying this thread. Much of it made me sad. I do think the Camino (all of them but particularly the Frances) is a victim of its own success. All the hype (we all love "The Way" and all the Camino books) and they are some of the best publicity for doing the Camino. Tour groups have jumped in, filling a need and making a profit (I have nothing against profit). NG offers a Camino tour as do many others. Last year I watched a Back Roads van drop off walkers only to pick them up a few miles later to take them down the road. Nothing wrong with this, perhaps it makes the Camino more accessible to people who otherwise might not be able to do any of a Camino. But it is a factor in the number of people walking. Then there's COVID. I do think COVID created pent-up demand that could take a few years to sort out. Then there's the business angle. During COVID, many businesses shut down. Am not sure if they all reopened. If not, it would add to the current squeeze. And the original poster seemed to say that businesses are closing because there's just too much pressure. An upside might be that potential business developers may see this as a booming business to get into but it takes time to set up shop. And then there's all of us. Each year new people walk a Camino and find it so fulfilling that they want to do it again. And again. This isn't a problem but it does add to the number of pilgrims walking a Camino. For these reasons, and others, there is a crunch on the Camino. I would love to see it all worked out. Would love to see people see this as a pilgrimage, not a tour. Would love to see everyone be kind to one another, be more tolerant. But I, like Globetrottingpilgrim, am glad I walked the Camino in a different time.It seems the CF has become a victim of its own success. This is unfortunate. I’m glad I had the good fortune to walk the Frances back in 2013.
People steal toilet paper?I’m highly suspicious that the people who double book and cancel at the last minute are the same people who steal toilet paper.
Yes, those who don't plan for their own needs do.People steal toilet paper?
Gosh!! I have no words!!Yes, those who don't plan for their own needs do.
I don't see why pilgrims should be familiar with hiking. Some people seem to be under the impression that the camino is a hiking trail!For whatever reasons the CF has become a hype and from what I can read on this forum attracts more and more people who are not very familiar with basic principles of hiking (what kind of boots, shorts, pants, bra,hats... do they need?) Some think France and Spain are a sort of wilderness. Of course not , it is all very civilized end gentle.
Having walked the camino yourself is this your observation from pilgrims you walked with??I don't see why pilgrims should be familiar with hiking. Some people seem to be under the impression that the camino is a hiking trail!
Speaking strictly for myself as an experienced through-hiker and mountain climber - the Camino will be VERY different from my past hikes. The gear and clothing is different (smaller pack, much lighter and higher temp sleeping bag/liner, trail runners rather than boots, preparation for days of heavy rain, no tent or sleeping pad, no shelter tarp, cooking gear etc.).For whatever reasons the CF has become a hype and from what I can read on this forum attracts more and more people who are not very familiar with basic principles of hiking (what kind of boots, shorts, pants, bra,hats... do they need?) Some think France and Spain are a sort of wilderness. Of course not , it is all very civilized end gentle.
Not sure what your point is. You don't need to walk to realise that a religious pilgrim may not be the same as your regular hiker. Many pilgrims are not hikers, they are people who feel called to the camino for various reasons.Having walked the camino yourself is this your observation from pilgrims you walked with??
How have you come to that conclusion ?Not sure what your point is. You don't need to walk to realise that a religious pilgrim may not be the same as your regular hiker. Many pilgrims are not hikers, they are people who feel called to the camino for various reasons.
I will say, without intending to offend anyone, that if asked, I would say that this is a hiking forum primarily.
I really don't see how attaching a single simplistic label is helpful. In fact it is provocative. Clearly there are many different sub-groups on the forum, and a much larger group of people who straddle the labels.if asked, I would say that this is a hiking forum primarily
You can say whatever you want. Of course there are different groups. From the perspective of a non-hike it is very hiking oriented!I really don't see how attaching a single simplistic label is helpful. In fact it is provocative. Clearly there are many different sub-groups on the forum, and a much larger group of people who straddle the labels.
People constantly going on about which shoes, which pack, which special towel, which sleeping bag!How have you come to that conclusion ?
lol well saidPerhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
You have been brave enough to post what I have been thinking for a long time!Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
Very well said Saves me all the time of typing I'm glad that I did my CF in 2015. I'm also glad that I am walking the last stages of the Sanabres (from Ourense to Santiago) and then the Camino Ingles. I'm not finding the crowds but then the Sanabres isn't the CF. I suspect that you are spot on and that economics will rule the day and more resources will be brought to bear. My fear is that it will become a solely economic driven process (maybe it was and is but I didn't see it).I had much the same thought readying this thread. Much of it made me sad. I do think the Camino (all of them but particularly the Frances) is a victim of its own success. All the hype (we all love "The Way" and all the Camino books) and they are some of the best publicity for doing the Camino. Tour groups have jumped in, filling a need and making a profit (I have nothing against profit). NG offers a Camino tour as do many others. Last year I watched a Back Roads van drop off walkers only to pick them up a few miles later to take them down the road. Nothing wrong with this, perhaps it makes the Camino more accessible to people who otherwise might not be able to do any of a Camino. But it is a factor in the number of people walking. Then there's COVID. I do think COVID created pent-up demand that could take a few years to sort out. Then there's the business angle. During COVID, many businesses shut down. Am not sure if they all reopened. If not, it would add to the current squeeze. And the original poster seemed to say that businesses are closing because there's just too much pressure. An upside might be that potential business developers may see this as a booming business to get into but it takes time to set up shop. And then there's all of us. Each year new people walk a Camino and find it so fulfilling that they want to do it again. And again. This isn't a problem but it does add to the number of pilgrims walking a Camino. For these reasons, and others, there is a crunch on the Camino. I would love to see it all worked out. Would love to see people see this as a pilgrimage, not a tour. Would love to see everyone be kind to one another, be more tolerant. But I, like Globetrottingpilgrim, am glad I walked the Camino in a different time.
I find this a very sad post. Let's keep this a welcoming place where people from many different backgrounds, different resources, share their knowledge of our shared interest; the many roads to Santiago. Let's respect everyone has his or her unique starting point and let's treat eachother as we would like to be treated ourselves when we tip our toes in something new and daunting. Let's be kind, lend a hand, and not judge. We were all and still are beginners on some or other subject.Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
I know there are many newbie forum members who are growing weary of "know it all"s complain about increased crowds..I know that there are a lot of old-timer forum members who are growing weary of many of the newbies’ questions. But please don’t let it lead you to give up on the forum! Titles of threads make very clear what is going to be discussed, and no one forces anyone to open any thread.
I know this is obvious, but as the businesses along the camino continue to ratchet up the level of comfort and range of services, the Camino is going to continue to attract more and more people who are less adventuresome, less willing to “rough it,” and more concerned about the level of amenities. And those people will come to the forum for help. They will likely be walking the Francés. Feel free to ignore those questions! But there is still no better place on the internet to go for a great discussion about the Olvidado, the Mozárabe, the Aragonés, the Catalán, the Madrid, the Lana, the Vdlp, the Ebro, the Invierno, and on and on and on.
I read this thread and the many others like this with sadness, because I can’t imagine going to walk for a month in these circumstances. But I realize that that’s just the way it is now on the Camino Francés.
I think that you are somewhat out of date if you think Muslims only go to mecca once in their lifetimes. Having lived in the Gulf, I know that many are repeat 'offenders' when it comes to going to Mecca. They go as often as they can. So much so that there are lotteries to decide who gets to go on Haj each year. If you are unlucky and miss out, then you can just go on umra any other time of the year.I know there are many newbie forum members who are growing weary of "know it all"s complain about increased crowds..
hmm.. maybe we should do as is the Muslim tradition, go to Mecca once in our life.. ?
It works both ways. We have had a lot of threads recently from newbies worried about the crowds or actually on the Camino trying to find accommodation, and the know-it-alls are trying to help them understand the more nuanced aspects of the crowds and the types of accommodation.I know there are many newbie forum members who are growing weary of "know it all"s complain about increased crowds..
Some more kindly than others. I can understand both positions. For my health and level of frustration staying kind has been consistently the way forward.It works both ways. We have had a lot of threads recently from newbies worried about the crowds or actually on the Camino trying to find accommodation, and the know-it-alls are trying to help them understand the more nuanced aspects of the crowds and the types of accommodation.
You are so right, The Koran only says "the least", and remember, millions of muslims lives all over the world, so - different traditions and sayings ;-)I think that you are somewhat out of date if you think Muslims only go to mecca once in their lifetimes. Having lived in the Gulf, I know that many are repeat 'offenders' when it comes to going to Mecca. They go as often as they can. So much so that there are lotteries to decide who gets to go on Haj each year. If you are unlucky and miss out, then you can just go on umra any other time of the year.
I am currently in Luquin - and yes the Frances is busy, there are overflow people from Villamayor Mont Jardin here - but there are 2 free bunks in my room tonight. It is now 9.55 pm and just 45 min ago, at 8.10 pm, I rang ahead to Torres del Rio and got 3 beds for tomorrow for some Korean ladies who needed a bit of help. Yes I spoke to a Pilgrim today who spent the night in the Pamplona bus station, but we are only booking ahead 1 day and all is OK. Sure - the days of no watch, no phone and just walk to to the rhythm of your body and the sun are gone on the Frances, but the sky ain’t falling in - if we all stopped booking ahead a year in advance then….!!!!! Spreadsheet pilgrims - get a life. By the way - just did the Baztan. Met 2 pilgrims in 5 days and had 3 nights in albergues alone. CooeeI did the Frances last year and came back to do some more hiking around St Jean Pied de Port this year. spending more time in the town and talking to locals I would strongly suggest people reconsider walking the Frances route this year (or in future).
consider this -
there are about 500 people every day going through the pilgrims office in SJPdP every day currently. this number doesn't include walkers who don't visit the pilgrims office OR private groups (ie there are large number of private korean tour groups currently).
so 500 pilgrims.... and only 200 beds in Roncesvalles.... 300 people without beds on their first night.... people were spending hours walking around SJPdP looking for accomodation. people arriving in Roncesvalles either have to get transport back to SJPdP to sleep and be taken back to Roncesvalles the next morning or catch a taxi forward or walk further on. Note, walking today, the next town was fully booked in advance aswell. so people can be up for a 30km day on their first day after walking to a 1,400m peak.
obviously the accomodation issues don't disappear after the first night. Zubiri is fully booked two weeks ahead and AirBnBs booked solid. Pamplona, 2 weeks ago when I went through, the albergue (112 beds) and all hostels were full. I had to book something outside of Pamplona.
before covid the pilgrim numbers going through SJPdP ilgrims office was 63,000 a year. last year it was 70,000. this year the numbers are blowing the locals out of the water. they have never seen this volume of people and so early in the season. the are literally burnt out before the peak begins. pilgrims have been flocking since mid March.
the owner of Express Bourricot is selling her bsuiness/stepping aside in July because she is so burnt out that she said it isn't fair on her or the pilgrims because she can no longer give the quality of service in her exhausted state. the service providers in SJPdP are drowning in tourists and a number are quite unpleasant toward them as they are so over the volume.
this is completely unsustainable for the locals and walkers. more walkers are coming with tents. this will come to a head at some point.
if you want to enjoy your camino and don't want to be severely anxious about finding a bed - I really suggest you let go of the dream of the Frances and try a different route. (that said, the northern route and the de puy routes have also got very high volumes this year, based on the numbers of pilgrims I walked past and talking to the locals on those routes).
rethink your plans if you want to 'enjoy' your camino.
Please give newbies some leeway: They are about to embark on a journey of a lifetime, spending a lot of their savings, without having had their feet on the ground. Silly as some of their questions may be, to oldtimers, it is understandable: They just want to cover their grounds, uncertain about the unknown. It is easy, but not wise by us oldtimers, to whisk their "silly" questions away, IMHO.People constantly going on about which shoes, which pack, which special towel, which sleeping bag!
I agree, and try to be so. Both grumpiness and oversensitivity should be avoided, although we are all human. Sometimes, direct/blunt talk is appropriate and at other times it isn't. It can be hard to judge the situation.For my health and level of frustration staying kind has been consistently the way forward.
I have a life, and my spreadsheets are part of it. Don't blame the tool.Spreadsheet pilgrims - get a life.
Maybe, maybe not. This thread is providing us all with an opportunity to express some interconnected frustrations, and I think it is going surprisingly well.But I am weering away from the original topic here...
The demographic is definitely changing. I walked my first Camino in 1990 aged 28 and most of those I met were about my own age or younger. Some pilgrim refugios at the time were simply bare floors without furniture so a sleeping bag and mat were essential. No luggage transport services so everyone carried their own pack. Very little private accommodation outside the larger towns - not enough for a bed every night. Longer stages than are common today. The net result was that the Camino then appealed more to a younger and more physically fit group than is typical today.
That's why I like to research. Mid-summer is actually less busy in SJPP (normally) than May. May and September are peak season for SJPP starts and it dips between them. Summer is busier for Sarria starts.Time of the year was one of my biggest considerations and that's why I chose the 2nd week in May and not mid summer.
My problem is that I sometimes over plan and get bogged down with it and let it effect whatever I am doing so this time I have decided to chill a little and just make the start line and with most also saying "the Way and pilgrims will take care of you".
OP just spooked me a little
I walked the VdlP in January last year and slept outdoors in a bivvy bag several times. The easiest way to break up some of the longer stages. You don't have to be all that young to do that now and again.Even on the Via last year, transport was needed once and some younger ones chose to sleep outside at one point.
There's no question people do this, but it's difficult to tell how common it is and difficult to tell how long people hold on to unneeded reservations.It had not occurred to me that people were routinely booking multiple options only to cancel the unwanted ones at the last moment. I too disapprove of that and I do not do that. I prefer to make a plan and then stick to my plan. However, should I experience an injury or find myself approaching a dangerous Iberian wildfire or flood area or some other major problem that disrupts my trip and requires re-planning, I want to be able to cancel at no charge the bookings that I will not be able to use.
The free-cancellation feature offered by some lodging places comprises a part of their business plan. In many cases a free-cancellation reservation costs more per night than does a no-cancellation reservation. I feel no guilt about selecting the free-cancellation option and then cancelling if and when absolutely necessary. The only time I can remember having cancelled at short notice was during the year 2020 COVID global shutdown.
I think you are absolutely right. Many folks don’t know where they will stay from one day to the next so it makes sense to hold a few ‘cancellable options’ Standard practice for many!There's no question people do this, but it's difficult to tell how common it is and difficult to tell how long people hold on to unneeded reservations.
My sense is that people reserve a few places/locations over two or three days and adjust their reservations as they get a better idea of when they will be at a certain town/stage-- as things unfold they drop the ones they know they won't need. I don't have direct evidence of this-- it's just something I infer from various sources.
I know of a few places in smaller towns along the Camino who intentionally block out certain months or periods of time from availability on places like Booking()com even though they are actually nowhere near full.
I believe they do this because with the habit of some to "book and cancel" the business owner ends up missing out during those busy times because many of their potential customers think there is no availability.
I would encourage those faced with "no availability" to contact some of the places directly where possible.
(Of course, this is just a generalization and may or may not apply to any particular place to stay along the Camino. It obviously does not apply to places which don't take reservations. What I wrote is also specifically NOT meant to be an explanation of why the CF is apparently very crowded and is not an argument about that either way. It's just a piece of the puzzle.)
On the other hand, if there is no reservation and the number of beds is a given, the beds are going to go to those who leave earliest or walk the fastest. Those who race to their destination will get the bed, not the other guy. Is the racer inherently more deserving of the bed than the planner?I had a very intense discussion with a gentleman from the booking-it crowd last year. My point being, reservation or no reservation, number of beds is a given, number of pilgrims is a given. Reservation just means, you get the bed, not the other guy.
Back to the question of newbies and repetitive questions... Over the past several years, we have spent a good many hours tagging and organizing thousands of threads on the forum, to improve accessibility to information. I find it a bit frustrating when new members just plop themselves on the forum and ask questions that could easily be answered by a few minutes glancing at the tools available - e.g. the tag cloud at the bottom of the Forums page, all the sub-forums on the main Forums page, and even the FAQ. After a few questions, they disappear forever.
The Forum offers some structure, albeit very imperfect. However, many people seem to expect only customized one-on-one answers with little effort on their part, rather like the unstructured and rambling pages of Facebook, where the information is very hard to follow and retrieve. Are we doomed to descend into that style?
Yes, that is annoying sometimes. On the other side, when I started out here a few years ago, it was a bit overwhelming to work out how the forum structure works (even in a well structured forest you can get lost). I try to gently explain and link, and if I get frustrated I tune out.Back to the question of newbies and repetitive questions... Over the past several years, we have spent a good many hours tagging and organizing thousands of threads on the forum, to improve accessibility to information. I find it a bit frustrating when new members just plop themselves on the forum and ask questions that could easily be answered by a few minutes glancing at the tools available - e.g. the tag cloud at the bottom of the Forums page, all the sub-forums on the main Forums page, and even the FAQ. After a few questions, they disappear forever.
The Forum offers some structure, albeit very imperfect. However, many people seem to expect only customized one-on-one answers with little effort on their part, rather like the unstructured and rambling pages of Facebook, where the information is very hard to follow and retrieve. Are we doomed to descend into that style?
We are there already with nothing booked either. A camino friend said today he just went to an alberque, not sure which one, before pamplona and there were 8 empty beds. People book but not pay, then don't turn up. The albergues lose and so do the pilgrims wanting to just 'wing it'.This is not what I needed to hear, I am off in several days on this route and with no rooms booked yet
I arrive SJPP on May 17 via Madrid-Pamplona. Have purchased my train and bus ticket already. Even have my return train ticket from Santiago de Compostela to Madrid for June 24th purchased. All rooms in between booked. I work 10 hours a day as a chef under stress every day. Don't need the stress looking for a room or train or bus ticket. I just want to enjoy Spain and the Camino Frances and keep the stress to a minimum as I will be returning to work at the start of our busiest season.Have talked to 2 albergues who have zero reservations after mid-May, June, July. Everyone wants to walk in the spring & fall & have some sort of romantic notion that they can walk into a town & knock on a door to find a bed. Without a problem.
Sorry, but even the buses need to be booked in advance on busy routes.
I started 15 April & was surprised to hear Pamplona was booked out. Lots of pensions there if people would take a look on booking dot com. Cheap too!
So glad I booked my beds. I have zero stress. Pilgrims spending every break on their phones looking for a bed are stressed tho. Yet those of us who prepared, researched & reserved are somehow looked down on. I am older & cannot walk farther to the next town if there isn’t a bed for me.
Because the CF is generally through settled land (very civilized and gentle) and not a sort of wilderness is exactly why it attracts walkers who are not hikers and would never consider something like the Appalachian Trail. That's probably why they may not be familiar with the basic principles of hiking.For whatever reasons the CF has become a hype and from what I can read on this forum attracts more and more people who are not very familiar with basic principles of hiking (what kind of boots, shorts, pants, bra,hats... do they need?) Some think France and Spain are a sort of wilderness. Of course not , it is all very civilized end gentle.
Lastly, I would like every newby to be informed that the high season in the first section of the CF is not the Summer at all: the high season are May and September, while the Summer (August and especially July) are the low season; it's not like that at all in the last section of the CF (Galicia), where the Summer months are the busiest ones.
We will probably just have to disagree on this one. I found the Camino in 1990 a very happy and optimistic place. Full of local people who positively welcomed the fairly small number of pilgrims and took real pleasure in stopping them in the street or the local bar to chat. I rarely passed through a town or village without a conversation and a handshake. A lot of genuine altruism and generosity. Still something of an experiment at the time but being kept afloat by much goodwill. There was not enough pilgrim traffic at the time for anyone to make a living from the Camino and I doubt that even the most optimistic would have predicted the spawning of many alternative routes or pilgrim numbers approaching half a million per year. I do agree that it makes little sense to call the Frances a "victim" of its success though. As we are seeing just now ever more people are still coming to walk a Camino. And this year seems to be reversing a recent decline in numbers starting from SJPDP or Roncesvalles. The Camino Frances in summer 2023 is not the experience I want for myself but clearly I am in a minority. I choose my routes and times accordingly and my January Camino Frances walk this year was a real joy. De gustibus non est disputandum!That time of very few pilgrims, which the Camino was just emerging from when Don Elias painted the first yellow arrows and which the Camino was still just emerging from when I did it in the year of his death, was not the healthy Camino. It was the ailing Camino. It was then, if ever, that it was a victim - a victim of centuries of neglect.
As you say, you can be charged several days out bit this does not override the cancellation policy so I would see it as largely irrelevant, given how cheap the accommodation is!I do pre- book, but only at one place per night, if it seems too far or there was an injury we would take a cab, which is another way to have flexibility. I use a mix of direct contact and booking.com. This year, for probably 40% of the booking.com reservations, it states my credit card will be charged in advance anywhere from 4-8 days before arrival. If this continues it might discourage the multiple bookers. There is still the option to cancel just not the day before you arrive.
It was the early green shoots of the beginnings of spring as it emerged from the winter of neglect. In 1990, the arrows had been painted. Some of the local associations had been started to support the pilgrims. But it was still much reduced from its earlier strength in the middle ages.We will probably just have to disagree on this one. I found the Camino in 1990 a very happy and optimistic place. Full of local people who positively welcomed the fairly small number of pilgrims and took real pleasure in stopping them in the street or the local bar to chat. I rarely passed through a town or village without a conversation and a handshake. A lot of genuine altruism and generosity. Still something of an experiment at the time but being kept afloat by much goodwill. There was not enough pilgrim traffic at the time for anyone to make a living from the Camino and I doubt that even the most optimistic would have predicted the spawning of many alternative routes or pilgrim numbers approaching half a million per year. I do agree that it makes little sense to call the Frances a "victim" of its success though. As we are seeing just now ever more people are still coming to walk a Camino. And this year seems to be reversing a recent decline in numbers starting from SJPDP or Roncesvalles. The Camino Frances in summer 2023 is not the experience I want for myself but clearly I am in a minority. I choose my routes and times accordingly and my January Camino Frances walk this year was a real joy. De gustibus non est disputandum!
I quite agree.Maybe, maybe not. This thread is providing us all with an opportunity to express some interconnected frustrations, and I think it is going surprisingly well.
Couldn't agree more...this has never been my practice on the Camino or on numerous overseas holidays. I'm slightly perplexed as to why anyone would do this; do they show up at the village/town after a day on the Camino and then walk to each of the pre-booked options to decide which is best/most appealing for them? Most would be flat out just making it to their own single booking or nearest available accommodation/albergue, let alone inspect a number of pre-booked alternatives. Maybe I'm missing something?I have used booking.com on my two most recent Caminos and have never double-booked to cancel last minute. If this is a current trend, it gives those of us who now choose to plan our lodging ahead of time to reduce stress while walking a potential "bad name" and is rather disappointing.
I agree it must be frustrating especially given all the backend work that goes into structuring a forum like this. Speaking for myself I will always do the majority of my own research using a combination of Google, Facebook groups, my hard copy guide books and this forum and I'm very grateful for all these wonderful resources. And yes I'm a spreadsheet planner.Back to the question of newbies and repetitive questions... Over the past several years, we have spent a good many hours tagging and organizing thousands of threads on the forum, to improve accessibility to information. I find it a bit frustrating when new members just plop themselves on the forum and ask questions that could easily be answered by a few minutes glancing at the tools available - e.g. the tag cloud at the bottom of the Forums page, all the sub-forums on the main Forums page, and even the FAQ. After a few questions and usually many answers, the new member disappears forever.
The Forum offers some structure, albeit very imperfect. However, many people seem to expect only customized one-on-one answers with little effort on their part, rather like the unstructured and rambling pages of Facebook, where the information is very hard to follow and retrieve. Are we doomed to descend into that style?
It's important for everyone to feel comfortable to ask, otherwise the content of this forum might as well be archived and available only in read mode. But the value of this forum is not just the content and information, it's the interaction and a feeling of belonging. And sometimes that's all the "newbie" poster may want.
I don't think people realize how different planning for a long distance Wilderness Hike and a Camino is. On a Wilderness hike - you really have to be prepared for so many circumstances, with limited to no access to services for days, and your pack is usually very heavy - it is strange to realize how little you really need on the Camino. You really have to change your entire mindset. And yes - I didn't just reduce gear, I changed the type of a lot of my gear, including clothing, towel, and sleep system choices. My pack didn't just shrink going from hiking parts of the Pacific Crest Trail - it has also shrunk from Camino 1, to Camino 2, to Via Francigena. Anyhow - feel free to private message me if you have more questions that you think I can help with.Speaking strictly for myself as an experienced through-hiker and mountain climber - the Camino will be VERY different from my past hikes. The gear and clothing is different (smaller pack, much lighter and higher temp sleeping bag/liner, trail runners rather than boots, preparation for days of heavy rain, no tent or sleeping pad, no shelter tarp, cooking gear etc.).
I would argue that the "basic principles of hiking" depend upon where, when, how, and why you are walking.
NOT traveling in "a sort of wilderness" has meant I need to adjust my mindset about walking and the Camino itself has made me rethink almost everything.
Not to mention the most important part of all- the spiritual aspect.
So please dear Pilgrim Fransw, be gentle. There is always more behind it than you can imagine.
If everyone did that there'd be no new threads!Back to the question of newbies and repetitive questions... Over the past several years, we have spent a good many hours tagging and organizing thousands of threads on the forum, to improve accessibility to information. I find it a bit frustrating when new members just plop themselves on the forum and ask questions that could easily be answered by a few minutes glancing at the tools available - e.g. the tag cloud at the bottom of the Forums page, all the sub-forums on the main Forums page, and even the FAQ. After a few questions and usually many answers, the new member disappears forever.
The Forum offers some structure, albeit very imperfect. However, many people seem to expect only customized one-on-one answers with little effort on their part, rather like the unstructured and rambling pages of Facebook, where the information is very hard to follow and retrieve. Are we doomed to descend into that style?
I don’t want to contribute to yet another Camino ethics debate. Rather, I want to contribute to the general picture of what people are doing as to accommodation and booking. My approach is similar to yours, @Pilgrim9: I book or reserve only one room / bed for the same date. I have made use of advantageous (24 hour) cancellation options, although rarely. Or I switched a booking from one day to the next day without penalty. I’ve also lost my deposit / guarantee a few times - it’s my free choice to provide for and arrange accommodations as I see fit. And as you said, it’s part of an agreement that I’ve entered and it has advantages and disadvantages for both partners.It had not occurred to me that people were routinely booking multiple options only to cancel the unwanted ones at the last moment. I too disapprove of that and I do not do that. I prefer to make a plan and then stick to my plan. However, should I experience an injury or find myself approaching a dangerous Iberian wildfire or flood area or some other major problem that disrupts my trip and requires re-planning, I want to be able to cancel at no charge the bookings that I will not be able to use.
The free-cancellation feature offered by some lodging places comprises a part of their business plan. In many cases a free-cancellation reservation costs more per night than does a no-cancellation reservation. I feel no guilt about selecting the free-cancellation option and then cancelling if and when absolutely necessary
Absolutely agree. The questions here, which bra, towel, no loo roll in cafes (!) etc surprise me greatly, what do we do in day to day life? Think for yourselves people, can this forum be kept for relevant information about the Camino, which is what I expected when joining?For whatever reasons the CF has become a hype and from what I can read on this forum attracts more and more people who are not very familiar with basic principles of hiking (what kind of boots, shorts, pants, bra,hats... do they need?) Some think France and Spain are a sort of wilderness. Of course not , it is all very civilized end gentle.
Good post. I think many people have a plan A and a plan B that necessitates multiples bookings on the same day and as long as they adhere to the T & C’s it will work for them and they will be penalised if not! I am fine with folks making multiple booking as they do airlines and restaurants. You win some and you lose some.it’s very standard practice across those that travel frequently. To not so so may leave you short of your plan A destination with no bed, hoping to get a bed or relying on taxis!I don’t want to contribute to yet another Camino ethics debate. Rather, I want to contribute to the general picture of what people are doing as to accommodation and booking.
My approach is similar to yours, @Pilgrim9: I book or reserve only one room / bed for the same date. I have made use of advantageous (24 hour) cancellation options, although rarely. Or I switched a booking from one day to the next day without penalty. I’ve also lost my deposit / guarantee a few times - it’s my free choice to provide for and arrange accommodations as I see fit. And as you said, it’s part of an agreement that I’ve entered and it has advantages and disadvantages for both partners. On one such occasion, I rang a pension around 6 pm to say that I was not coming as we had stopped earlier than planned and had luckily gotten the last room in a casa rural; it was a last minute decision. I felt it was the decent thing to ring … although that conversation was a disaster as we could not find a common language, neither Spanish, nor English, nor French worked and while I was trying to say in 3 languages that I did not care about the money and just wanted to let her know that she did not need to wait for us, the owner was airing her anger because she believed that I wanted the money back …
Albergues who do not work with a deposit/credit card guarantee rely on agreements made by phone or email. I don’t know to what extent current peregrina@s make several bookings for the same day and don’t even cancel them so that these beds become only available after say a 3pm deadline in the afternoon … we can rant about it all we want but I noticed this morning (as I was curious about what pilgrims are writing in the FB Camino groups about the current situation) that this is “advice” that is traded there. Such behaviour contributes to the impression that “everything” is booked and that albergues end up with empty beds at the same time.
As I said we can rant about this all we want or try to educate peregrina@s about good practice and I don’t know how widespread this is.
Privately owned albergues who are oriented towards pilgrims as Gronze defines it and who work without a deposit/credit card guarantee system do not have an option to penalise - they rely on an honour code that has not been put in writing anywhere. That honour code includes the idea of solidarity with the community. Making multiple bookings for the same day and then even letting a 3 pm deadline pass for such mulptiple bookings except one does not fit the idea of solidarity.think many people have a plan A and a plan B that necessitates multiples bookings on the same day and as long as they adhere to the T & C’s it will work for them and they will be penalised if not!
For some people these questions ARE relevant information. Who are we to judge how relevant a question is?Absolutely agree. The questions here, which bra, towel, no loo roll in cafes (!) etc surprise me greatly, what do we do in day to day life? Think for yourselves people, can this forum be kept for relevant information about the Camino, which is what I expected when joining?
Sorry should have been clear.. I was only talking about online bookable accommodation mainly via booking.com as I never use any other methodology! They of course always have penalty clauses. Agree that if no penalty, or options to chose between cancellable and non refundable, folks should not be multi booking.Privately owned albergues who are oriented towards pilgrims as Gronze defines it and who work without a deposit/credit card guarantee system do not have an option to penalise - they rely on an honour code that has not been put in writing anywhere. That honour code includes the idea of solidarity with the community. Making multiple bookings for the same day and then even letting a 3 pm deadline pass for such mulptiple bookings except one does not fit the idea of solidarity.
And I'm a gear-freak, love to planning small and light stuff for once, never went on a trip whithout my huge minus 30C sleeping bag and layers of wool ;-) judge me, I'm guiltySpread Sheeter here. I love sitting in front of a fire on an icy winter night with a glass of red wine, guide books and a pile of maps.
I could not agree with you more! Far too much negativity.Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
I'm in Boadilla del Camino now and the onlt time everything was booked fully was during the week previous to and immediately around the long weekend. Locals travel and stay in albergues too.is not a panic email. it's a view from being on the ground right now.
That’s an adventure!The thing is, if we neglected planning of our equipment, journeys, etc. in the same way, if we just threw some random clothes into some random bag and rushed to the airport hoping to catch a flight going somewhat in the right direction, wouldn’t we expect to run into some problems (challenges)? From that perspective, it doesn’t seem so strange that we sometime have to deal with challenges with respect to lodging if we come unprepared.
Agree 150%Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
This is all very frustrating to me. (the double booking and having a plan A/plan B reservation) Have I ever double booked 2 places for the same night? Yes! But I do so only in the early stages of planning. I don't stay double booked up to the last couple days before arrival. In fact, usually if I do this - it is many weeks/months in advance during early planning stages. Right now - I do have 2 places reserved for Calais on the Via Francigena because my original reservation was canceled due to the accommodation deciding to close it's doors - so I booked 2 places because I am waiting to see if either is willing to accommodate a late arrival since I am due to arrive right around the end of their advertised check in time and might be up to 30 minutes beyond that. So - I booked both, and messaged both with my arrival plans so they can tell me if they are OK with the late arrival. I have heard back from one, but not the other. I have also done it while trying to figure our how to line up multiple nights of accommodations based on what is available in decent walking distances before/after that accommodation. But I would never even think to do so up until the last minute, especially if the place isn't a huge hotel or chain hotel. It isn't fair to the businesses to do so. It isn't fair to the other people who need to find a bed. And yes - if this is happening, it would undoubtedly add to the appearance that there is more of a bed race than there really is. It would add to the chaos/confusion. As for Calais - I will most likely cancel one of those reservations today, which is several weeks still before arrival (I only booked them 2 days ago).Good post. I think many people have a plan A and a plan B that necessitates multiples bookings on the same day and as long as they adhere to the T & C’s it will work for them and they will be penalised if not! I am fine with folks making multiple booking as they do airlines and restaurants. You win some and you lose some.it’s very standard practice across those that travel frequently. To not so so may leave you short of your plan A destination with no bed, hoping to get a bed or relying on taxis!
Sorry but can you make clear here which bar was there between Cirauqui and Lorca that is now gone? I don't think there has ever been such a bar in that stretch of Camino so just wanting to make sure you are not mixing it up with another place... Thanks!The bar between Cirauqui and Lorca is gone. Overgrown with weeds. It would have been too much to think that business could survive covid.
There's a ton of fearmongering and panic about beds and crowds, and has been for many years, and it's not always based on facts but often enough mainly on fear, hearsay and thinking that "Can't find the kind of accommodation I want" - for example private rooms - or "don't want to/can't add 5kms at the end of the day" or "everything is booked out in booking.com" (even though the parroquial without WiFi next door is still is half empty!) is the same as "there are no beds".
I'm not in St. Jean right now, and not on the Camino, so maybe I misinterpret the situation completely and it's like Pamplona during San Fermin on the whole Francés now...
Googling "drinking water Spain" gives millions of different recommendations.. I still think it is relevant what most pilgrims do both in terms of plastic waste and their own health. Choose what you want to read, the headlines are warnings ;-)Perhaps pilgrims need to learn to be a tad more resourceful. Surely a simple google search would have informed people that starting from SJPdP (a busy place at the quietest of times) on a holiday weekend would pose some problems? These catastrophic posts are driving me nuts! The sky is not falling. Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on the part of everyone on the Camino, nor everyone on the forum. People are on here literally asking others how to buy a bra; if they can drink the water in Spain; if they can find food in Spain; if they can buy sunscreen in Spain; what an ATM looks like in Spain; how much of their foreign currency they should bring to Spain, for some reason assuming it will be readily accepted; what the temperature will be tomorrow, and the chance of rain the day after that. For the love of Christ, people, I am surprised most can make it out of their own driveway. I will be soundly chastised for this post, but seriously, seriously...?
It was just after going under the aquaduct. It made it into Brierley’s 2018 map edition. There are some abandonned buildings there. The bar was not there in 2013, but was there when I passed by in 2016.Sorry but can you make clear here which bar was there between Cirauqui and Lorca that is now gone? I don't think there has ever been such a bar in that stretch of Camino so just wanting to make sure you are not mixing it up with another place... Thanks!
Ok. I'm in the area since late 2018 and I don't think that bar has been there since that time, so it must have gone during 2018 or earlier (not covid related).It was just after going under the aquaduct. It made it into Brierley’s 2018 map edition. There are some abandonned buildings there. The bar was not there in 2013, but was there when I passed by in 2016.
It is very very true. The camino is a great experience and a beautiful place to be, but I would have never picked this route had I any idea how hard finding a bed is every night. I have walked 8 caminos and this is my third Frances. It has never been this crowded. And I am on the camino right now. Sally Jane is right I would reconsider the Frances.is not a panic email. it's a view from being on the ground right now.
If you have not been in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port or even on the Camino during the last weeks, why judging about 'fearmongering and panic'?
My experiences are based on facts: I have seen the overwhelming amount of pilgrims in Roncesvalles during my stay there from April 8th till April 21st, I was there in the same period last year, I can compare with last year and we had twice as much pilgrims as last year in April.
I have tried to help people desperate to find a bed when they were exhausted and could not walk anymore ...
This may sound counter-intuitive, but if you really want to start in August, you should do the Camino Francés from SJPP. (but maybe keep an eye on how numbers go in July) You'll be ahead of the September rush. There are options to avoid the very busy section after Sarria by switching to the Invierno at Ponferrada.Thanks, this was very useful information for me. I would very much like to decide on a route, Potoguese is also on my wish list. If you had to choose PC or NC Aug/Sept and were a beguinner, which would you choose? know everyone has personal preferences and maybe an impossible question. I want to see all the places and do any route, but don't want to walk in a queue or worry too much for where to spend the night.. (speaking spanish is ok, know some..)
I think it is a combination of two things:It is interesting how planning/preparation for the Camino is in some way divided. A large proportion of the questions that we ask and discuss on the forum is about equipment. Which size of pack, boots versus trail running shoes, walking poles or not and if so which type and brand. Water bottles versus bladders, which size and how to carry conveniently, etc., etc. And socks! – a source of endless (and sometimes funny) discussions. Just to mention a few subjects. Weight optimization of course– how do we choose our equipment to minimize the load we have to carry on our backs? You know the ‘classic’ ones: cut half the handle off your toothbrush, squeeze half of the toothpaste out and remove the cardboard tube from the roll of toilet paper. When we start our Camino, we are totally prepared and optimized with respect to equipment. We also go through a lot of planning to optimize our journey to the start of the Camino (and back) which is only natural, as some have to travel half way around the world to get there. And then, after all that detailed and time consuming planning, we stop – or at least some of us do. One of the most important parts, where will we sleep each night for perhaps 30+ days, is left unplanned.
The thing is, if we neglected planning of our equipment, journeys, etc. in the same way, if we just threw some random clothes into some random bag and rushed to the airport hoping to catch a flight going somewhat in the right direction, wouldn’t we expect to run into some problems (challenges)? From that perspective, it doesn’t seem so strange that we sometime have to deal with challenges with respect to lodging if we come unprepared.
Just a thought….
I actually think people on this forum probably do more research and planning into equipment than the average pilgrim (but I could be wrong). It wouldn't surprise me at all if there are people who just throw some clothes in a pack and go.I think it is a combination of two things:
In terms of where to stay, I don't think we can possibly have the information before we start walking to optimize, especially on our first Camino. All of the research we do is really important information to help optimize, but other factors will also come into play: how we are feeling, who we are walking with, what the weather is like, etc. That why I like, as much as possible, to research but make as few commitments as possible. It's a bit easier now to plans for my stages with more confidence as I've started to get a better idea of how far I like to walk each day. But while I will book the first few days in advance, I still don't think I would book the whole Camino in advance given a choice. I don't have as much information as I will have on the road and some important factors are unknown at this point.
- Equipment is something we can plan. The more important aspects of a Camino simply cannot be planned.
- Equipment (at least some of it) is something we need to sort out before leaving. We need a backpack, shoes, and a water bottle before walking. Yes, we may change them along the way, but these are things we need to get us started. We can't leave home without them. (Yes, I know we can just show up with a credit card and buy them in SJPP or Sarria, but that is still buying them before we start walking, not figuring them out along the way.
That's what I did on my first Camino. Admittedly, this forum didn't exist then. None of the resources then talked about what to pack.I actually think people on this forum probably do more research and planning into equipment than the average pilgrim (but I could be wrong). It wouldn't surprise me at all if there are people who just throw some clothes in a pack and go.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if there are people who just throw some clothes in a pack and go.
there are about 500 people every day going through the pilgrims office in SJPdP every day currently.
I just find it sad that the opening post of this thread basically suggests that the Francés is so awful at the moment that nobody in their right mind should walk it at all this year, or ever in the near future. [...] That's such an extreme statement that I find it very difficult to believe that it's completely true.
I read a post on a blog that said about 500 pilgrims a day passed through Roncesvalles during Easter's holy week and they were put up in tents in the field below.
We should all mark our calendars for the first week of September for another flurry of "the Camino Francés is overcrowded" posts.Dire predictions for the whole year and the whole Camino Francés, based on very limited temporary information and freely extrapolated data without a sound basis are a regular occurrence on the forum: every year in May and also in September. The number of "500 pilgrims" is a favourite. I tried to find a thread from years ago when we joked about 500 pilgrims raring to go daily who were kept in sheep pens just outside SJPP and only released in batches but I could not find this memorable thread
And all my gear and kitchen scale!Spread Sheeter here. I love sitting in front of a fire on an icy winter night with a glass of red wine, guide books and a pile of maps.
I will be able to give you live updates as I am volunteering that week in the Pilgrim Office in St Jean Pied de Port.Was there last year at the same period volunteering there for the first time and it was hectic.We should all mark our calendars for the first week of September for another flurry of "the Camino Francés is overcrowded" posts.
More likely they do something like this:Couldn't agree more...this has never been my practice on the Camino or on numerous overseas holidays. I'm slightly perplexed as to why anyone would do this; do they show up at the village/town after a day on the Camino and then walk to each of the pre-booked options to decide which is best/most appealing for them? Most would be flat out just making it to their own single booking or nearest available accommodation/albergue, let alone inspect a number of pre-booked alternatives. Maybe I'm missing something?
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