Proposal to allow reservations for Xunta albergues

[Bradypus]

A Pontevedra news website has an article about a proposal to allow reservations to be made for Xunta albergues. The idea was raised at a meeting of hospitaleros last year and is being supported by the Amigos del Camino Portugués. The proposal is to permit reservations to be made in the peak months of July and August.

Pontevedra abandera la petición de permitir las reservas en los albergues

El presidente de Amigos del Camino Portugués advierte de que "cada vez se peregrina más de madrugada para garantizarse una plaza"

www.diariodepontevedra.es

 

[Sue127]

A Pontevedra news website has an article about a proposal to allow reservations to be made for Xunta albergues. The idea was raised at a meeting of hospitaleros last year and is being supported by the Amigos del Camino Portugués. The proposal is to permit reservations to be made in the peak months of July and August.

Pontevedra abandera la petición de permitir las reservas en los albergues

El presidente de Amigos del Camino Portugués advierte de que "cada vez se peregrina más de madrugada para garantizarse una plaza"

www.diariodepontevedra.es

I think that may encourage me to walk out of high season even more.

 

[wisepilgrim]

Once upon a time they did, but for a very brief time before the Xunta funded reservation crashed and never restarted.

Prepare for more no-show reservations.

 

[SYates]

The Xunta albergues are kind of an insider tip - because they don't allow reservations, plenty of beds left even in high season ...
BC SY

 

[SYates]

Once upon a time they did, but for a very brief time before the Xunta funded reservation crashed and never restarted.

Prepare for more no-show reservations.

Covid insecurity times, wasn't it?
BC SY

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The Xunta albergues are kind of an insider tip - because they don't allow reservations, plenty of beds left even in high season ...
BC SY

Does rather depend where you are. Not sure if it’s a Xunta or a Municipal, but you can’t book Bruma for example, and in the high season the queue often exceeds capacity an hour or two before it opens. Equally, O Cadavo Xunta on the Primitivo was completely full by 17.00 when I was there.

Should they decide to allow reservations, it shouldn’t be much of an issue for an organisation as large as the Xunta to also require prepayment, and set up the relevant infrastructure. It would considerably reduce no -shows.

 

[bks]

I think that may encourage me to walk out of high season even more.

And that will discourage me from walking!!!

 

[Sue127]

Does rather depend where you are. Not sure if it’s a Xunta or a Municipal, but you can’t book Bruma for example, and in the high season the queue often exceeds capacity an hour or two before it opens. Equally, O Cadavo Xunta on the Primitivo was completely full by 17.00 when I was there.

Should they decide to allow reservations, it shouldn’t be much of an issue for an organisation as large as the Xunta to also require prepayment, and set up the relevant infrastructure. It would considerably reduce no -shows.

It would possibly reduce no shows, some people wouldn't baulk at booking two beds, just in case, but it would put a lot of pressure on those of us who don't know where we're going to end up to have to start booking, it would totally change that çamino feeling.

 

[JCLima]

(...) it would totally change that çamino feeling.

They claim that that feeling has already been changed, as pilgrims feel forced to start walking very early in the morning to reach the Xunta albergues, wait in line for it to open, and often still face the fact of not being able to secure a bed

 

[good_old_shoes]

One more reason for me to carry my camping equipment.

I'd rather walk a 50km day to get to a campsite without having to book than booking a xunta albergue in advance.

I mean, honestly.

I have nothing against people making reservations.

But there's already countless private albergues, apartments, hostales and hotels that allow reservations for those who want that.

Leave at least a few albergues for those who prefer not to make reservations.

Please?

 

[bks]

One more reason for me to carry my camping equipment.

I'd rather walk a 50km day to get to a campsite without having to book than booking a xunta albergue in advance.

I mean, honestly.

I have nothing against people making reservations.

But there's already countless private albergues, apartments, hostales and hotels that allow reservations for those who want that.

Leave at least a few albergues for those who prefer not to make reservations.

Please?

Thank you for your post!!

A lot of pilgrims don't and or are unable to make reservations therefore it is necessary that there are auberges available that don't except reservations!!

 

[bks]

They claim that that feeling has already been changed, as pilgrims feel forced to start walking very early in the morning to reach the Xunta albergues, wait in line for it to open, and often still face the fact of not being able to secure a bed

As "good old shoes" noted there are plenty of other places where you can sleep that accept reservations.

 

[JCLima]

As "good old shoes" noted there are plenty of other places where you can sleep that accept reservations.

Not everyone can afford private albergues, some are dependent on those cheaper albergues to walk the camino.

 

[trecile]

If they do start a reservation system I hope that they don't make all the beds bookable so that some are left for walk-ins. And has been mentioned they should require advance payment to discourage no-shows.

 

[bks]

I understand, but I'm sure pilgrims can make do with what is available and make the best of it.

Implementing a reservation system costs money and it will even cost more if prepayment is required. The cost of accommodation will then go up and a cheaper option will no longer be available.

There are also many pilgrims that are dependent on auberges that one can't reserve and they may also be dependent on ones that are cheaper. For example pilgrims from Europe that have very limited funds, that don't have phones and are not "tech savvy".

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I agree, @trecile. The only time I stayed somewhere where they allowed nearly all reservations ahead of time, but kept about ten beds available for walk-ins was at the Abbey St. Foy in Conques, France. It is hugely popular and the majority of beds get pre-booked. My friends and I barely arrived in time as walk-ins and were given the perfect private room/bathroom to ourselves. I was thankful that they set several rooms aside in this busy tourist fairytale village.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

It would possibly reduce no shows, some people wouldn't baulk at booking two beds, just in case, but it would put a lot of pressure on those of us who don't know where we're going to end up to have to start booking, it would totally change that çamino feeling.

As a former hostel manager I can assure you that having to pay in advance most definitely reduces the number of no shows! Yes, there’s always the odd one that will book and still not show - but at least they have paid for the privilege.

I see both sides.
I value the Municipal/Xunta system, but nothing is foolproof. The fact that the quickest walkers / earliest risers secure a bed, leaving those that are struggling to walk on doesn’t sit particularly well with me. Especially if they are also those that are not as financially secure. The ability to book would improve the situation for many of those. And it’s easy to say that they can’t - lack of a smartphone for instance - but we can always ask for assistance, whether from a fellow pilgrim or the current Hospitalero.

And just because we have the ability to book doesn’t mean we have to.

By and large, after the first day or two I walk without booking; it is by far my preferred option. But I don’t think that the ability for others to book or not will affect that - as you say, I have no idea where I am going to want to end my day. Which also means that there may or may not be a Municipal/Xunta , let alone a bed.

 

[Sue127]

I agree with @trecile and @Camino Chrissy: if they must take reservations, please, please, please leave some for free walkers and people who cannot pay higher pension prices.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

For example pilgrims from Europe that have very limited funds, that don't have phones and are not "tech savvy".

I have yet to meet a pilgrim from Europe that wasn’t more tec savvy than me. Let alone one that didn’t have a cell phone.

I did meet a wonderful older man from South America who’d saved for 20 years to walk, but he was very resourceful. Grateful for the Xunta/Municipal/ Donativo networks, but certainly not dependent on them.

 

[dougfitz]

I agree with @trecile and @Camino Chrissy: if they must take reservations, please, please, please leave some for free walkers and people who cannot pay higher pension prices.

You might want to make this request to the people proposing this change. I'm not sure if there are sufficient details in the newspaper article - if not, it might be an option to comment on the article itself. But it does seem to come from an association that should be reasonably easy to find.

 

[bks]

As a former hostel manager I can assure you that having to pay in advance most definitely reduces the number of no shows! Yes, there’s always the odd one that will book and still not show - but at least they have paid for the privilege.

I see both sides.
I value the Municipal/Xunta system, but nothing is foolproof. The fact that the quickest walkers / earliest risers secure a bed, leaving those that are struggling to walk on doesn’t sit particularly well with me. Especially if they are also those that are not as financially secure. The ability to book would improve the situation for many of those. And it’s easy to say that they can’t - lack of a smartphone for instance - but we can always ask for assistance, whether from a fellow pilgrim or the current Hospitalero.

And just because we have the ability to book doesn’t mean we have to.

By and large, after the first day or two I walk without booking; it is by far my preferred option. But I don’t think that the ability for others to book or not will affect that - as you say, I have no idea where I am going to want to end my day. Which also means that there may or may not be a Municipal/Xunta , let alone a bed.

With respect to pre paying not everyone can pay or wants to pay in advance, especially if it's an unknown site! If payment goes through "booking.com" most are probably O.K. with that but there is a cost and it will be passed on to the user.

I can also see both sides and I notice that most auberges accept reservations so getting a bed is not a problem. Those that want to reserve can do so. It's also necessary to have ones that one can't reserve to give those that don't reserve some piece of mind. As those are unlikely to the be ones that are private shouldn't the Municipal auberges remain the ones that one can't reserve?

With respect to pilgrims that are the quickest walkers and earliest risers that's not really an issue. Pilgrims start at different locations along the trail and and they end at different locations. A late riser and/or a slow hiker can arrive at an auberge earlier than an early riser and/or a fast walker depending on how may kms. they walk.

 

[bks]

I have yet to meet a pilgrim from Europe that wasn’t more tec savvy than me. Let alone one that didn’t have a cell phone.

I did meet a wonderful older man from South America who’d saved for 20 years to walk, but he was very resourceful. Grateful for the Xunta/Municipal/ Donativo networks, but certainly not dependent on them.

Without trying to be negative I don't understand why you have so readily dismissed my comments. I have run into plenty of pilgrims that experience difficulties communicating with a smart phone particularly when the language is foreign. I am one of them.

 

[VNwalking]

With respect to pilgrims that are the quickest walkers and earliest risers that's not really an issue

Respctfully, this (relatively) slow walker has had another experience.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

1/ With respect to pre paying not everyone can pay or wants to pay in advance, especially if it's an unknown site! If payment goes through "booking.com" most are probably O.K. with that but there is a cost and it will be passed on to the user.

2/ I can also see both sides and I notice that most auberges accept reservations so getting a bed is not a problem. Those that want to reserve can do so.

1) If you don't want to pay in advance you have an easy alternative: don't book. Or simply walk in a timeframe that is not affected by the proposals.
If you can't pay in advance you won't be able to pay on the day either - I'm not suggesting months, I'm talking about a day or two, once you have a reasonable idea where you might expect to end up.
If however you mean that you do not have an online account or credit card for example, then I return to my earlier point: you simply need to seek the assistance of others.

As the 'Xunta de Galacia' is quite literally the "Regional Government of Galicia" according to Google one would assume that they have a secure payment site already in existence. (I'm not a local). Making the site readily verifiable. And meaning that any costs would be minimal.

If payment were to go through b.c then as you point out the costs would most definitely rise because they take a significant commission.

2/ yes but those private Albergues are typically more expensive, and as others have pointed out above there are those who may not be able to afford that.

As those are unlikely to the be ones that are private shouldn't the Municipal auberges remain the ones that one can't reserve?

In an ideal world yes, however it is not I that am suggesting that they Institute a reservation system, it's the Hospitaleros themselves according to the article.

With respect to pilgrims that are the quickest walkers and earliest risers that's not really an issue. Pilgrims start at different locations along the trail and and they end at different locations. A late riser and/or a slow hiker can arrive at an auberge earlier than an early riser and/or a fast walker depending on how may kms. they walk.

Not according to the article:

"These situations are causing the Camino to Santiago to lose its essence , reiterates Lores, pointing out that "this stress to secure a bed not only goes against the spirit of the pilgrimage, but also represents discrimination based on age and physical condition , because the youngest or the fittest will arrive first and will have more opportunities than the rest."

He also says:
"In high season we have 86 places, but they are almost always too small and it is a nuisance to take half of those who have been waiting for one or two hours and tell them that they no longer have a place, that they must find another place to spend the night," he points out.".


On much of the Camino Frances your comment may well be valid. But most camino's don't have that level of infrastructure.
And even on the Frances, Roncesvalles for example has multiple occasions every year where they have to turn away pilgrims despite having both bookable and non-bookable accommodation.

On some Caminos you are likely to be starting at the same point and ending at the same point - the Camino Inglès is a classic example. Certainly you have the option of doing short stages however the majority of people that walk the route do the standard stages.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Without trying to be negative I don't understand why you have so readily dismissed my comments..

I wasn't being dismissive of your comments. The only part I commented on was the "pilgrims from Europe that have very limited funds, that don't have phones and are not tech savvy" and even then I added a laughing emoji after my comment.

The only Europeans that I have met that did not have a cell phone were those that had either very recently lost it or had chosen to walk without one.

Even the South American gentleman that I met had one.

I have run into plenty of pilgrims that experience difficulties communicating with a smart phone particularly when the language is foreign. I am one of them.

So am I! I was given my first smartphone at work 14? years ago, an iPhone 7. I'm writing this on it now. There are probably still functions that I don't know how to use. As to languages: I speak some German but I've only learnt that in the last couple of years. When it comes to French or Spanish I literally just know a few words and phrases.
Worst case I simply ask someone for help.

 

[trecile]

If you can't pay in advance you won't be able to pay on the day either

Are you assuming that if the Xunta albergues institute a booking system that they will no longer take cash?
I think that the reason why people wouldn't be able to pay in advance would be because they don't have a credit or debit card or other type of electronic payment to do so.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Are you assuming that if the Xunta albergues institute a booking system that they will no longer take cash?

No

I think that the reason why people wouldn't be able to pay in advance would be because they don't have a credit or debit card or other type of electronic payment to do so.

Yes, I covered that too.

Over 40 years ago the International youth hostel association had a very simple prepayment and booking system. Basically you simply asked the staff at wherever you were staying to phone ahead on your behalf, and you could pay for the next hostel (or two) at your current one.

In this technological age I'm sure a simple system could be instituted. Especially
bearing in mind the high tech registration system that the Xunta currently operates.

 

[domigee]

A Pontevedra news website has an article about a proposal to allow reservations to be made for Xunta albergues. The idea was raised at a meeting of hospitaleros last year and is being supported by the Amigos del Camino Portugués. The proposal is to permit reservations to be made in the peak months of July and August.

Pontevedra abandera la petición de permitir las reservas en los albergues

El presidente de Amigos del Camino Portugués advierte de que "cada vez se peregrina más de madrugada para garantizarse una plaza"

www.diariodepontevedra.es

I was shocked that the municipal albergue in Azofra was allowing bookings. People couldn’t just turn up any more. That was in the Covid days (2021?)

 

[Bradypus]

I was shocked that the municipal albergue in Azofra was allowing bookings. People couldn’t just turn up any more. That was in the Covid days (2021?)

The article mentions that reservations were allowed (required?) during Covid but that was dropped afterwards.

 

[domigee]

The article mentions that reservations were allowed (required?) during Covid but that was dropped afterwards.

Oh good! Thanks

 

[good_old_shoes]

And just because we have the ability to book doesn’t mean we have to.

In theory, yes.

But in practice, when all or almost all albergues allow reservations, the reality is a bit different.

If all albergues allow reservations, it is impossible to plan if you don't make reservations. You have no idea if there's a bed available anywhere, no matter what time of day you arrive. There might not be a bed available for you in the next 60kms and you'll only find out once you're told "complete" again and again or by making phone calls. Which makes it very difficult to walk without reservations, and pushes you towards booking even if you prefer not to.

When there's non-bookable albergues, you at least know that there's a bed for you for certain if you arrive early, and you can make a good guess what time of day the albergues might fill up, depending on how busy it is. That way you can plan even without making reservations.

If a place can not be booked, I have a fairly good idea what time of the day I can arrive and still get a bed, depending on how busy the Camino is at the moment and at what times the albergues I stayed the days before filled up at, and how many beds they have.

So I don't run to be first at an albergue, even without reservations, usually I arrive in the afternoon, sometimes even later, sometimes even in the evening.

If it isn't very busy, I know that most likely the place won't fill up until evening, so, no need to hurry at all. If it is a bit more busy and not many other options, I walk a slightly shorter day so that I don't arrive too late in the day.

But if all places can be booked in advance, you never know. It's impossible to plan at all.

Even if albergues 'keep a few beds for walk ins' as was suggested, it's still problematic.

When it is only "a few" beds for walk - ins, then you definitely (!) need to arrive early, if you want any chance of getting a bed there.

So, then it really is a bed race for the few beds that are left for the walk-ins!

In the end, walking without reservations is then an option that mainly exists in theory, as it puts those who prefer not to make reservations at a massive disadvantage from the get go.

Look at the Via Podiensis, for example. Almost all (or all?) gites allow and even encourage reservations.

Yes, you could walk it without reservations if you walk during a less busy time and if you're okay adding 10-15km at the end of the day from time to time, but almost nobody does that, almost all walkers make reservations unless they've got a tent as backup (and those are few).

I'd understand the change of rules for the Xunta albergues if there were truly no options yet for those who walk extremely slowly, arrive very late, or simply want the security of having a reservation for whatever reason.

But many, many albergues already do allow reservations. So there's no disadvantage for the eldery and slow walkers. They can book one of the many, many beds in a private albergue already. Yes, those are slightly more expensive.

But if Xunta / municipal albergues can be booked, too, most likely their prices will go up, also, so it's probably not even cheaper anymore than the private ones.

In short,

If all albergues can be booked, then there's not really a choice anymore.

For me, that is not a positive change.

But it is what it is. If that change of rule truly becomes reality, and if in the end it becomes the norm in general (and with more and more municipals allowing reservations it seems to go into that direction...) all you can do is adapt.

I'll be a happy camper then, I guess.

 

[BookGirl305]

I think the real reason some are upset here is that the age bracket of the upset posters is 70+ and it's not that they are incompetent from using a card or a cell or buying things off their phone (because I guarantee every one of those posters is very proficient with Amazon!) but that the updated version of how things operate is different from both the way they started and also their individual nostalgic memories of the mystique that drew them to walk in the first place. The same posters can be found getting ticked about tour groups and singers and mountain bikers and lack of communal dinners. But the reality is that the Camino has changed, especially post-Covid. Booking.com and Hotels.com are a thing. Hosts use them to guarantee their rooms will be full and their revenue will be made. Travelers use it to make sure they have a place to be at night. Perhaps the municipals would like to have guaranteed revenue as well. They see the private facilities full and doing well and would like that too. If it's ok to use Wise Pilgrim for a route map because its a more modern and efficient way to walk, then it also has to be ok to use a prebook for a room. Even Ivar has an app now. We either embrace changing ways of doing things or not, but the world is going to evolve whether an individual chooses to participate or not.

 

[trecile]

I was shocked that the municipal albergue in Azofra was allowing bookings. People couldn’t just turn up any more. That was in the Covid days (2021?)

The Azofra municipal now accepts reservations, but doesn't require them.

 

[good_old_shoes]

I think the real reason some are upset here is that the age bracket of the upset posters is 70+ and it's not that they are incompetent from using a card or a cell or buying things off their phone (because I guarantee every one of those posters is very proficient with Amazon!) but that the updated version of how things operate is different from both the way they started and also their individual nostalgic memories of the mystique that drew them to walk in the first place. The same posters can be found getting ticked about tour groups and singers and mountain bikers and lack of communal dinners. But the reality is that the Camino has changed, especially post-Covid. Booking.com and Hotels.com are a thing. Hosts use them to guarantee their rooms will be full and their revenue will be made. Travelers use it to make sure they have a place to be at night. Perhaps the municipals would like to have guaranteed revenue as well. They see the private facilities full and doing well and would like that too. If it's ok to use Wise Pilgrim for a route map because its a more modern and efficient way to walk, then it also has to be ok to use a prebook for a room. Even Ivar has an app now. We either embrace changing ways of doing things or not, but the world is going to evolve whether an individual chooses to participate or not.

I don't think it's simply a matter of being old and therefore nostalgic why some people (me included) dislike the fact that more and more municipals now accept reservations.

I'm still 30 years away from 70 and still hate making reservations, having to do everything online, ect.

Having the option to do so is great, but having to isn't.

And it's not that it's not okay to book a room or bed in advance. That's totally okay and not the point.

It's the problem that once all albergues can be booked, there's basically no other choice anymore in the end than to book in advance, and with that, a lot will be lost.

That's the problem, at least from my point of view.

 

[dick bird]

I think the real reason some are upset here is that the age bracket of the upset posters is 70+

That is something of an assumption.

The main drawback will be walkers who book and don't show up, resulting in albergues having empty beds having turned away pilgrims who haven´t booked. It will also require a lot of investment in software that works and training hospitaleros to use it. And I don´t subscribe to the view that all change is for the better or that change is inevitable so we may as well accept it. Sometimes we need to defend good things if we can.
¨They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot¨.

 

[trecile]

It will also require a lot of investment in software that works and training hospitaleros to use it.

I believe that the Xunta albergues use municipal employees to greet pilgrims and take their payments.

 

[Rita Flower]

Oooh noooo!
I don't like to book ahead but will if necessary. I always feel so grateful when I get to Galicia and can just turn up at a Xunta Albergue and get a bed. And I plan accordingly - get up early and be at my destination ready to line up if necessary. Although I have never walked in the absolute peak season, in July this year the only place with a long line, or any line, was Ponferrada. The lovely young person in front of me said I was number 47 in the queue of the 90(?) bed Albergue so would get a bed. However, the thought of an hour wait to check in etc. was just too much. I walked back down the road and got what I believe was the last room in a very nice hotel for E55, and left the albergue to the young and perhaps less monied.
Maybe things are different in peak season, but I never walk at that time anyway so hopefully whatever they decide will work better for those on Camino at that time.

 

[dick bird]

I believe that the Xunta albergues use municipal employees to greet pilgrims and take their payments.

I have heard from a usually reliable source that the Xunta has contracted out a lot of the work of the albergues to a catering company based in Madrid, which makes it strange that they are having meetings of hospitaleros. I´d be very interested to know the situation. Maybe it is just the cleaning and maintenance that is contracted out.

 

[Frankybaby66]

I understand, but I'm sure pilgrims can make do with what is available and make the best of it.

Implementing a reservation system costs money and it will even cost more if prepayment is required. The cost of accommodation will then go up and a cheaper option will no longer be available.

There are also many pilgrims that are dependent on auberges that one can't reserve and they may also be dependent on ones that are cheaper. For example pilgrims from Europe that have very limited funds, that don't have phones and are not "tech savvy".

Quite a generalisation saying that all pilgrims from Europe have 'limited funds'. .
You can buy me a beer if we cross paths

 

[Kathor1]

[...] the Xunta has contracted out a lot of the work of the albergues to a catering company based in Madrid, which makes it strange that they are having meetings of hospitaleros. I´d be very interested to know the situation. Maybe it is just the cleaning and maintenance that is contracted out.

I, too, got curious about this, i.e. that a Camino association manages a Xunta albergue and so I had a quick look. The Galician government put out a new contract for tender this summer; it includes servicio al atención al peregrino, limpieza y gestión de cobro del precio en los albergues publicos y centres de information. They have done so for many years. They will pay some €11,000,000 to the company who will win the contract for providing these services (if I understand correctly).

The Memoria xustificativa do contrato says that the Galician government currently owns or has commissioned 76 pilgrim albergues on the 7 routes to Santiago de Compostela that make up the public network of albergues on the Camino de Santiago in Galicia. They are directly responsible for 62 of these albergues, with the opening of 4 new ones planned, all of which form part of the new contract, and the other 13, while owned by the government, are being managed by local councils or other organisations.

So the albergue in Pontevedra must be one of the Xunta owned albergues that are managed by a local Friends of the Camino association and not by the staff of the external company that currently holds the contract for management.

The proposal - if it is ever seriously considered by the Galician authorities - concerns only the public albergues in Galicia. I guess that the discussion in the thread is more about the general idea and keeping the spirit of the Camino than of practical relevance. Nobody would be obliged to book. Everybody could stay in a public albergue or a private albergue or a hotel without having booked, just as they can do now. As I said, I guess the concerns are about the idea and the spirit of the Camino. Because surely those who do not wish to book are not concerned for themselves - that it would be they who don't get a bed where and when they want one ... ?

Source: https://www.contratosdegalicia.gal/licitacionlang=es&cambioIdioma=true&N=823141

 

[Kathor1]

There are also many pilgrims that are dependent on auberges that one can't reserve and they may also be dependent on ones that are cheaper. For example pilgrims from Europe that have very limited funds, that don't have phones and are not "tech savvy"

Quite a generalisation saying that all pilgrims from Europe have 'limited funds'. .

That is not what the poster wrote. The poster referred to: pilgrims from Europe who have very limited funds; pilgrims who don't have phones; pilgrims who are not "tech savvy". At least that is how I read it.

That there are pilgrims from Europe who have very limited funds (overall in their lives and not because they are "budget conscious" during their weeks on Camino while practising the simple life for a while) ought not come as a surprise. Those who have very limited funds overall in the USA or in Australia or South Africa don't have the financial means to even travel to Spain. So poor Camino pilgrims will be resident in Spain and to lesser extent resident in other European countries.

 

[VNwalking]

Nobody would be obliged to book. Everybody could stay in a public albergue or a private albergue or a hotel without having booked, just as they can do now.

True, there is never obligation.

But practically once the majority books, everyone needs to - whether they actually want to or not, at least on well-travelled routes. And in Galicia these are not so many. The Sanabres/Invierno is the only one that sees to still be relatively unpopulated.

 

[Kathor1]

practically once the majority books, everyone needs to - whether they actually want to or not, at least on well-travelled routes

As I said, I sympathise with the concerns about a booking system changing attitudes perhaps. But logic (maybe faulty?) tells me: when there are not enough beds in a popular location to cover demand at a specific time, then some people won't get a bed in that location at that time. Who should it be: those who book or those who are fit enough to arrive early enough to pass in a first past the post system?

Roncesvalles is perhaps a good example: There are times, especially in May and September, when more than 200 pilgrims wish to stay but they don't have so many beds and cannot accept so many pilgrims. In the past, those who could stay were those who arrived by 1 pm. Now it is those who have booked and they can take their time and arrive by 6 pm or even later.

 

[Anhalter]

I very personally like the "old" no-reservations system. For me it is a part of the pilgrimage to go into the unknown. Not knowing where i'll be sleeping is a part of that.

However i can also see the very practical advantages of reservations. Besides all that has been already said, it also allows for balancing out capacities better. I heard more than one story of people being sent away in one town when plenty of beds in the albergue the town before were still empty...

So, i guess we'll see what happens. I also guess it won't be as big a deal as some make it sound.

 

[dick bird]

If they are worried that there are not enough places, why don't they build more albergues? Or expand the existing ones? A booking system wouldn't solve the numbers problem.

 

[Kathor1]

Source: https://www.contratosdegalicia.gal/licitacionlang=es&cambioIdioma=true&N=823141

Also:

https://www.xunta.gal/es/notas-de-p...ra-casi-12-los-proximos-dos-anos-para-gestion

This is a press release with a good summary (and possibly a small mistake ).

 

[VNwalking]

Who should it be: those who book or those who are fit enough to arrive early enough to pass in a first past the post system?

Or the third option, which happens when booking is not possible: those who do not book but arrive either early or late.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

If they are worried that there are not enough places, why don't they build more albergues? Or expand the existing ones? A booking system wouldn't solve the numbers problem.

Building additional Albergues, or even just expanding the existing ones is of course doable but a/very expensive, b/ takes significant time and C/ realistically, is not just a commercial decision, but for the Xunta, a political decision. How are their voters going to feel about such vast expenditures of money?

Instituting a reservation system on the other hand is considerably faster and cheaper. It works to reduce the pressure on any individual area by immediately allowing the pilgrim to see that they cannot get a bed at their preferred location of choice and so will either need to stop earlier, later, or take some mode of transport to their accommodation.

As mentioned above (and many times on this forum) there are often locations that are overflowing, but the village just a few kilometres earlier had loads of empty beds. Reservations help redistribute those pilgrims.

It's exactly like visiting any major city: I may wish to stay near the center but quickly discover that everything is either fully booked or out of my price range. I then have to look into the suburbs and take public transport instead.

As pilgrims we are often spoiled by the fact that the accommodation is immediately adjacent to the Camino, whereas realistically it would not be unreasonable to have to walk/ take public transport to the accommodation just as other travellers do.

 

[Kathor1]

Or the third option, which happens when booking is not possible: those who do not book but arrive either early or late.

Which, I guess, is presumably the case for the overwhelming majority of public Camino albergues in all of Spain throughout the year.

As far as I can tell, there are no statistics about the occupation rate of public albergues and similar albergues along the Caminos. More often than not I read that they are not full; or even next to empty. Even when they are small albergues like for example in Canfranc which appears to be never full, judging by reports from volunteer hospitaler@s on this forum.

The proposal for a booking system in some or all of the public albergues in Galicia comes from an albergue in Pontevedra and is also related to the increasing popularity of the Camino Portugues in recent years and in particular in 2024 and even more in particular during the summer months. There is a news article about this - although I think there is some confusion about the statistical data in it. I was trying to read it in machine translation but collapsed with laughter when I came to a subtitle that said: "Hatching: Martin Sheen opened the American melon".

The link is in the article mentioned in the first post (https://www.diariodepontevedra.es/a...egrinos-mas-180000/202412221113521368485.html).

​

 

[VNwalking]

"Hatching: Martin Sheen opened the American melon".

OMG.
But oddly accurate.

Which, I guess, is presumably the case for the overwhelming majority of public Camino albergues in all of Spain throughout the year.

Yes, no doubt a correct presumption.
That they are partly empty is what makes the beds available for those of us who don't book, for whatever reason.

 

[dick bird]

Also:

https://www.xunta.gal/es/notas-de-p...ra-casi-12-los-proximos-dos-anos-para-gestion

This is a press release with a good summary (and possibly a small mistake ).

Many thanks for this and I think I spotted the mistake. No mention here of reservations. Going off at a once popular tangent (i.e. resurrecting a favourite forum topic), given that the management of the Xunta albergues is contracted out to a commercial enterprise, we can make a good guess what happened to all the kitchen utensils.

According to Gronze, Pontevedra albergue is owned by the Xunta but run by local volunteers and when it is full they use the polideportivo as overflow.

 

[Silvermomma]

Once upon a time they did, but for a very brief time before the Xunta funded reservation crashed and never restarted.

Prepare for more no-show reservations.

I just don't understand the no-shows. What are you doing on camino if you neglect basic courtesies?

 

[Bradypus]

I just don't understand the no-shows. What are you doing on camino if you neglect basic courtesies?

I think that you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect people on caminos to be very different from the general run of humanity elsewhere. Mostly good in my experience but with a few you would prefer not to meet there or at home.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

The Xunta Albergues are a strange mutant specie. Government-owned buildings, renovated at public expense, were originally set aside to charitably serve the rough-and-ready, underfunded pilgrim in places where other accomodations were lacking.
But the landscape has changed.
The camino's become a money-making bonanza, and the Xunta is dedicated to getting as many "pilgrims" into Galicia as possible, and sending them to local businesses to spend money. Also owning a chain of low-cost dwellings that compete with the money-spinners is kinda counter to the cause.
So the Xunta albergues suffer from "mission creep." They have for a decade been rented out to a big corporation from Madrid that charges 8 - 10 euros per night, and in the effort to make them pay somehow, and they're slowly bland-erizing them into faceless, Balkan-style pilgrim factories.
Taking reservations is another step toward the privatized, monetized model I fear they are evolving into... and another way the rough-and-ready pilgrim is left to sleep outdoors.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I believe that the Xunta albergues use municipal employees to greet pilgrims and take their payments.

they are employees of Clece Corporation. Some are local people.

 

[trecile]

given that the management of the Xunta albergues is contracted out to a commercial enterprise, we can make a good guess what happened to all the kitchen utensils.

I understand that they don't want to pay to have someone clean up the kitchens and maintain the cookery in good order in addition to paying people to clean the dorms, bathrooms, etc. It's not like albergues that have on site hospitaleros. The workers come in to register pilgrims and take their money in the afternoons, and then go back in the morning to clean.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Traditional camino hospitality "Acogida Tradicional" - without a set price and provided by non-profit volunteers -- is the secret sauce that makes the whole camino so magical. There is a legal process in motion now to give such places Unesco protections. The Xunta albergues do not qualify for the protections...and now the Xunta (and mysteriously, the Federation that runs many donativo albergues!) have come out publicly AGAINST the Acogida Tradicional protections.
The politics of money. Slaying the goose that lays their golden eggs.

 

[VNwalking]

The politics of money. Slaying the goose that lays their golden eggs.

It may have been about caritas at one point, but...sigh...gold. Like Gollum with their 'precious...' @Rebekah Scott, gracias, gracias for all you do to keep caritas alive on the camino.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I think the real reason some are upset here is that the age bracket of the upset posters is 70+ and it's not that they are incompetent from using a card or a cell or buying things off their phone (because I guarantee every one of those posters is very proficient with Amazon!) but that the updated version of how things operate is different from both the way they started and also their individual nostalgic memories of the mystique that drew them to walk in the first place. The same posters can be found getting ticked about tour groups and singers and mountain bikers and lack of communal dinners. But the reality is that the Camino has changed, especially post-Covid. Booking.com and Hotels.com are a thing. Hosts use them to guarantee their rooms will be full and their revenue will be made. Travelers use it to make sure they have a place to be at night. Perhaps the municipals would like to have guaranteed revenue as well. They see the private facilities full and doing well and would like that too. If it's ok to use Wise Pilgrim for a route map because its a more modern and efficient way to walk, then it also has to be ok to use a prebook for a room. Even Ivar has an app now. We either embrace changing ways of doing things or not, but the world is going to evolve whether an individual chooses to participate or not.

Being far from 70+ I must disagree.
My best camino days are those when I decide where to stay on the last 5 km, or even spontaneously because of the weather, feet or because a place seems extraordinary nice to me.
Hence I dislike booking ahead. It takes away some of the aspects that used to make a Camino special, and not just yet another hiking trip in Europe.
Of course it is all mostly a symptom of an increase in Camino tourism. Its popularity starts to change it, even choke it.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

If you want to reserve your bed (and send your suitcases ahead), call a hotel or a privately owned place. Pilgrim albergues are for pilgrims, people who fly free, carry their own burdens, and let the road provide for them. Some of us are fighting hard to keep the camino available to all, not just those with telephones and credit cards and expectations.

 

[Pilgrim9]

It's the problem that once all albergues can be booked, there's basically no other choice anymore in the end than to book in advance, and with that, a lot will be lost.

I don't understand the problem.

If all albergues can be booked, AND if all albergues in town X are fully booked for night Y, then the number of pilgrims expected to arrive necessarily matches or exceeds the number of beds (assuming zero no-shows), and a walk-in will be bed-less.

But if for whatever reason the albergues are not fully booked and if the same number (and why would it be different) of pilgrims arrive in town X on night Y, then once again the number of pilgrims matches or exceeds the number of beds, and someone will be bed-less.

How is the first situation worse than the second?

I don't see any reason that the presence or absence of a reservation system would significantly change the number of pilgrims arriving in town X or at least on that section of the trail that day. The number of pilgrims would be much more influenced by season, holidays, day-of-week, etc.

All I see is that booking systems provide both the hostelries and the pilgrims with information that each party can use for daily planning, i.e. for what in industry is called system load balancing.

I argue that the second situation is much worse because that "someone" who will be bed-less will have arrived late in the day, making it much harder to find a bed elsewhere.

 

[Robo]

Maybe the changing face of the more popular routes could encourage Pilgrims to spread out a bit and start walking other routes? Though of course it's a bit hard to avoid the last bit through Galicia

It looks like those more popular routes are certainly becoming more commercialised and slowly edging towards a packaged holiday type concept.

I suppose with greater opportunity to book, people will. And as they book, they will see available spaces reducing. So they will book further ahead. Maybe eventually booking their whole Camino 'up front'. Others will start to plan and book, and panic when they see places are hard to find. And so may not go. As the popular routes become more popular, what's the answer? Perhaps the issue is a lack of beds, not a booking process?

Purists might push back against the proposal........but if the "Pilgrim Public" want it?

Thankfully there are plenty of other, less commercially attractive routes.


I wonder what the Camino Frances experience will look and feel like in 10-15 years?

 

[David Tallan]

If you want to reserve your bed (and send your suitcases ahead), call a hotel or a privately owned place. Pilgrim albergues are for pilgrims, people who fly free, carry their own burdens, and let the road provide for them. Some of us are fighting hard to keep the camino available to all, not just those with telephones and credit cards and expectations.

Some pilgrim albergues are privately owned places. Often pilgrim albergues on less travelled routes than the Frances (including ones that are not privately owned) prefer a little warning that pilgrims are going to arrive, rather than have pilgrims who are just "flying free" and "letting the road provide for them" arrive with no notice. Some pilgrims live by "The Lord helps those as helps themselves" and think that it doesn't hurt to help the road provide.

All that said, I am entirely in favour of fighting hard to keep the camino available for all, not just those with telephones and credit cards and expectations.

 

[David Tallan]

I don't understand the problem.

If all albergues can be booked, AND if all albergues in town X are fully booked for night Y, then the number of pilgrims expected to arrive necessarily matches or exceeds the number of beds (assuming zero no-shows), and a walk-in will be bed-less.

But if for whatever reason the albergues are not fully booked and if the same number (and why would it be different) of pilgrims arrive in town X on night Y, then once again the number of pilgrims matches or exceeds the number of beds, and someone will be bed-less.

How is the first situation worse than the second?

I don't see any reason that the presence or absence of a reservation system would significantly change the number of pilgrims arriving in town X or at least on that section of the trail that day. The number of pilgrims would be much more influenced by season, holidays, day-of-week, etc.

All I see is that booking systems provide both the hostelries and the pilgrims with information that each party can use for daily planning, i.e. for what in industry is called system load balancing.

I argue that the second situation is much worse because that "someone" who will be bed-less will have arrived late in the day, making it much harder to find a bed elsewhere.

There are different risks associated with accommodations, and different ways of mitigating them.

People who book ahead manage the risk of not having a place to sleep in their chosen town because they arrived too late to find one. They do that by accepting the risk that the chosen town will turn out not to be where they want to stay (because the day was tougher than they expected and they really wanted to stop earlier, because they joined up with a group of people sleeping elsewhere, because they found themselves in a lovely village where they would really like to spend the night but now have to walk 5 km further, or any of a number of other reasons).

People who don't book ahead leave themselves flexibility about where they will stop. But they accept that they need to use other methods of mitigating the risk of being bedless (starting earlier, being willing to walk further, or to take a taxi to and from their accommodations).

If there is a mix of accommodations that take and don't take bookings, people can choose which risks they want to accept and which mitigation strategies they wish to use. That's the way we have it today. If you really don't want to book ahead, you can walk without, using the other mitigation strategies above. If you want to book ahead, you can. If there are too many people, it just means that the people who want to book may need to book earlier and the people who want to just walk need to just walk earlier.

If all places accept booking and there are too many people, people who want to just walk have zero recourse. Every place will be booked. They will be forced to abandon any idea of walking without booking.

In every case where the number of pilgrim exceeds the number of beds there will be problems and races. If every place accepts booking, you are just reducing flexibility and making everyone run the booking race.

 

[David Tallan]

Maybe the changing face of the more popular routes could encourage Pilgrims to spread out a bit and start walking other routes? Though of course it's a bit hard to avoid the last bit through Galicia

It looks like those more popular routes are certainly becoming more commercialised and slowly edging towards a packaged holiday type concept.

I suppose with greater opportunity to book, people will. And as they book, they will see available spaces reducing. So they will book further ahead. Maybe eventually booking their whole Camino 'up front'. Others will start to plan and book, and panic when they see places are hard to find. And so may not go. As the popular routes become more popular, what's the answer? Perhaps the issue is a lack of beds, not a booking process?

Purists might push back against the proposal........but if the "Pilgrim Public" want it?

Thankfully there are plenty of other, less commercially attractive routes.


I wonder what the Camino Frances experience will look and feel like in 10-15 years?

I expect there will be more infrastructure. On my second Camino Frances there were something like 60x the number of pilgrims as on my first. Many times more than we ever thought the Camino could ever support. And it was easier to find a bed.

 

[Texas Walker]

As "good old shoes" noted there are plenty of other places where you can sleep that accept reservations.

And even places that accept reservations won't turn you away for just showing up where the Camino has brought you unless they're actually full; often they know a place very nearby that has availability if that happens. Even in a big city like Burgos!

 

[Texas Walker]

There are different risks associated with accommodations, and different ways of mitigating them.

People who book ahead manage the risk of not having a place to sleep in their chosen town because they arrived too late to find one. They do that by accepting the risk that the chosen town will turn out not to be where they want to stay (because the day was tougher than they expected and they really wanted to stop earlier, because they joined up with a group of people sleeping elsewhere, because they found themselves in a lovely village where they would really like to spend the night but now have to walk 5 km further, or any of a number of other reasons).

People who don't book ahead leave themselves flexibility about where they will stop. But they accept that they need to use other methods of mitigating the risk of being bedless (starting earlier, being willing to walk further, or to take a taxi to and from their accommodations).

If there is a mix of accommodations that take and don't take bookings, people can choose which risks they want to accept and which mitigation strategies they wish to use. That's the way we have it today. If you really don't want to book ahead, you can walk without, using the other mitigation strategies above. If you want to book ahead, you can. If there are too many people, it just means that the people who want to book may need to book earlier and the people who want to just walk need to just walk earlier.

If all places accept booking and there are too many people, people who want to just walk have zero recourse. Every place will be booked. They will be forced to abandon any idea of walking without booking.

In every case where the number of pilgrim exceeds the number of beds there will be problems and races. If every place accepts booking, you are just reducing flexibility and making everyone run the booking race.

It's getting lost in the discussion, but I think it's relevant that people can both reserve a day or two ahead for some locations and just turn up for others. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. I personally prefer to call ahead for large cities, but not for smaller places...depending on if the smaller place is an "end of stage town" with very few options or an off-the-famous-end-points town. The number of available spots is key in my personal balancing. YMMV

 

[Arctic_Alex]

It's getting lost in the discussion, but I think it's relevant that people can both reserve a day or two ahead for some locations and just turn up for others. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. I personally prefer to call ahead for large cities, but not for smaller places...depending on if the smaller place is an "end of stage town" with very few options or an off-the-famous-end-points town. The number of available spots is key in my personal balancing. YMMV

That is what in the end most of us will do in practice ... the world is not black and white only ... in fact it worked quite well on my last Camino.

 

[David Tallan]

It's getting lost in the discussion, but I think it's relevant that people can both reserve a day or two ahead for some locations and just turn up for others. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. I personally prefer to call ahead for large cities, but not for smaller places...depending on if the smaller place is an "end of stage town" with very few options or an off-the-famous-end-points town. The number of available spots is key in my personal balancing. YMMV

I do that, too, reserve a day or two ahead in some cases, not in others. But the concern is that if there are no places that don't accept reservations, that might push it towards all one way.

 

[VNwalking]

But the concern is that if there are no places that don't accept reservations, that might push it towards all one way.

Hence the fight @Rebekah Scott mentioned. I for one am very grateful to her and others pushing back against complete commercialization.

Most of us have booked at one time or another, as need requires. That's a bit different than giving a heads up to the hospi of an albergue on a remote camino - which is an act of consideration and kindness.

 

[David Tallan]

Most of us have booked at one time or another, as need requires. That's a bit different than giving a heads up to the hospi of an albergue on a remote camino - which is an act of consideration and kindness.

Either way, it is a commitment on your part to be there and a commitment on their part to provide a bed (or not - I've given a heads up to the hospi on a remote Camino only to be told that the albergue would not be available that day). At least, after I've given the heads up, I've always considered it a commitment to show up.

 

[Pilgrim9]

If all places accept booking and there are too many people, people who want to just walk have zero recourse. Every place will be booked. They will be forced to abandon any idea of walking without booking.

I am a retired systems analyst cursed with an engineering technologist's brain that insists on analyzing and thoroughly understanding problems, especially those pertaining to processes and systems. Those who don't share this affliction should skip to the next post because this will bore you.

-----

I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The existence/non-existence of a reservation system cannot change the lodging capacity of a town or stage of the Camino. Once a stage is full, it is full.

-----

Case A: Number of arrivals exceeds number of beds.

Some arrivals will be bed-less.

It is impossible for the presence of a reservation system to make that situation worse, but it can make things better for the reservers by providing them with advance information enabling planning.

There will be a bed-race, but a reservation system enables reservers to know exactly where they are going, and to *notionally* race ahead to their destination super-early, getting their feet in the door, which is of course the whole point of making a reservation.

All non-reservers will arrive in real time later and must scramble for a bed. This will be true regardless of how many people, if any, use a reservation system.

If there is no reservation system, everyone is a non-reserver and must scramble.

As stated above, there will definitely be bed-less non-reservers. They will have no way of discovering their problem until near the end of the day when they are tired and hungry. That does not sound like a fun and relaxing end to the day, but that's just me.

-----

Case B: Number of arrivals is fewer than or equal to number of beds.

A bed race will be unnecessary, but since the non-reservers have no way of knowing that, there might be a pointless bed-race amongst them, wasting effort and stress.

Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.

-----

It is better for those who want to do so to be able to determine in advance whether or not space will be available.

A reservation system has no downside other than administrative costs, even for non-reservers.

-----

Anyone who read this far and can refute my line of reasoning is welcome to do so.

 

[Lindsay53]

I am a retired systems analyst cursed with an engineering technologist's brain that insists on analyzing and thoroughly understanding problems, especially those pertaining to processes and systems. Those who don't share this affliction should skip to the next post because this will bore you.

-----

I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The existence/non-existence of a reservation system cannot change the lodging capacity of a town or stage of the Camino. Once a stage is full, it is full.

-----

Case A: Number of arrivals exceeds number of beds.

Some arrivals will be bed-less.

It is impossible for the presence of a reservation system to make that situation worse, but it can make things better for the reservers by providing them with advance information enabling planning.

There will be a bed-race, but a reservation system enables reservers to know exactly where they are going, and to *notionally* race ahead to their destination super-early, getting their feet in the door, which is of course the whole point of making a reservation.

All non-reservers will arrive in real time later and must scramble for a bed. This will be true regardless of how many people, if any, use a reservation system.

If there is no reservation system, everyone is a non-reserver and must scramble.

As stated above, there will definitely be bed-less pilgrims. They will have no way of discovering their problem until near the end of the day when they are tired and hungry. That does not sound like a fun and relaxing end to the day, but that's just me.

-----

Case B: Number of arrivals is fewer than or equal to number of beds.

A bed race will be unnecessary, but since the non-reservers have no way of knowing that, there might be a pointless bed-race amongst them, wasting effort and stress.

Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.

-----

It is better for those who want to do so to be able to determine in advance whether or not space will be available.

A reservation system has no downside other than administrative costs, even for non-reservers.

-----

Anyone who read this far and can refute my line of reasoning is welcome to do so.

Everything you say is correct. The number of beds is the same regardless of being bookable in advance or not. However this purely technical assessment does not account for the human desire for spontaneity and improvisation, of not having to plan the journey meticulously. Often there is joy in setting out not knowing where you will spend the night and taking each day as it comes.

 

[Robo]

Everything you say is correct. The number of beds is the same regardless of being bookable in advance or not. However this purely technical assessment does not account for the human desire for spontaneity and improvisation, of not having to plan the journey meticulously. Often there is joy in setting out not knowing where you will spend the night and taking each day as it comes.

But maybe, a booking system does not really have any impact on that?
It's the lack of beds that does... (certain routes, certain times of year)
And of course this is really only an issue on the popular routes.

It's a total non-issue on many others.
I've often been the only Pilgrim stayng somewhere on the VdlP.
And mostly the only one, on the Invierno.

 

[David Tallan]

I am a retired systems analyst cursed with an engineering technologist's brain that insists on analyzing and thoroughly understanding problems, especially those pertaining to processes and systems. Those who don't share this affliction should skip to the next post because this will bore you.

-----

I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The existence/non-existence of a reservation system cannot change the lodging capacity of a town or stage of the Camino. Once a stage is full, it is full.

-----

Case A: Number of arrivals exceeds number of beds.

Some arrivals will be bed-less.

It is impossible for the presence of a reservation system to make that situation worse, but it can make things better for the reservers by providing them with advance information enabling planning.

There will be a bed-race, but a reservation system enables reservers to know exactly where they are going, and to *notionally* race ahead to their destination super-early, getting their feet in the door, which is of course the whole point of making a reservation.

All non-reservers will arrive in real time later and must scramble for a bed. This will be true regardless of how many people, if any, use a reservation system.

If there is no reservation system, everyone is a non-reserver and must scramble.

As stated above, there will definitely be bed-less pilgrims. They will have no way of discovering their problem until near the end of the day when they are tired and hungry. That does not sound like a fun and relaxing end to the day, but that's just me.

-----

Case B: Number of arrivals is fewer than or equal to number of beds.

A bed race will be unnecessary, but since the non-reservers have no way of knowing that, there might be a pointless bed-race amongst them, wasting effort and stress.

Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.

-----

It is better for those who want to do so to be able to determine in advance whether or not space will be available.

A reservation system has no downside other than administrative costs, even for non-reservers.

-----

Anyone who read this far and can refute my line of reasoning is welcome to do so.

OK, I'm not a systems engineer, just some guy who has been around the pilgrim block a few times. So, like you, I will use a couple of scenarios to try and show how it looks to me. You can then bring your engineering skills and experience to bear and let me know where my math and reasoning went astray.

I will also put forward two scenarios, but they will both be within your scenario A (not enough beds). I don't think anyone is complaining about above situation where there are more than enough beds for everyone.

My scenario A is where some albergues take reservations and some do not. My scenario B is where every albergue takes reservations (your optimal situation). For simplicity sake, in both scenarios I am going to assume 100 pilgrims and 80 beds. I'm going to assume that at the start 40 pilgrims like to reserve ahead (bookers) and 40 pilgrims like to just show up without a reservation (wingers). In both scenario A and scenario B there will be 20 unhappy pilgrims who don't get a bed. That's because in both scenarios there are 100 pilgrims looking for a bed and only 80 beds available. But let's dive into the scenarios and see how they differ.

Scenario A I am going to posit 40 beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not. So we have 40 happy bookers and 10 unhappy bookers; 40 happy wingers and 10 unhappy wingers. These numbers might adjust a bit over time. The 10 unhappy bookers might start booking earlier to get ahead of the other bookers (a reservation race). The 10 unhappy wingers might start walking earlier to get ahead of the other wingers (a walking race). Or some of the unhappy wingers might start to reserve, putting additional stress on the bookable rooms. This stress might lead some of the unhappy bookers to just start walking earlier and hope to get one of the rooms that can't be booked. But overall, both strategies can be successful for some people and the majority in each group are going to be happy with the perennial (until capacity increases) 20% unhappy.

Now let's look at scenario B, your optimal scenario, where all 80 beds are bookable. The first night you are going to have 50 happy bookers, 30 happy wingers, and 20 unhappy wingers. Some of those unhappy wingers will just start walking earlier, but it won't take long for a few of them to realize that they can join the bookers, book tomorrow's bed, and have a guarantee. The more that do that, joining the bookers, the fewer beds that will be left for the remaining wingers, making it harder and harder for them to find a bed. It won't be long before there are at least 80 bookers, at which point it will be impossible to find a bed as a winger. Everyone will have to be booker. At this point there is no longer a walking race. There is no point. No matter how early you leave in the morning, every bed will be booked when you arrive. So now it is purely a reservation race. Whoever gets in first with a reservation gets a bed. The last 20 are out of luck. And the pressure pushes everyone to book earlier and earlier. You may start booking a day or two ahead, but the beds are soon enough all taken by those who book a week ahead. The logical conclusion of this is everyone booking their whole Camino months ahead.

Now this does have a benefit, in line, I believe, with your optimization. People without a bed know that they won't have a bed. They can see that everything is booked when they go to book their whole Camino (or approach the company to do that for them) and just stay home. We no longer have those 20 unhappy people without a bed.

But I think for most Camino pilgrims, a conclusion where everyone has to book their whole Camino months ahead and stick to it because every other bed is also reserved (months ahead) is not optimal. And that is what is enabled where not all the beds are bookable, making the reservation race not the only possibly successful strategy.

Now, where did I get it wrong?

 

[Sue127]

I am a retired systems analyst cursed with an engineering technologist's brain that insists on analyzing and thoroughly understanding problems, especially those pertaining to processes and systems. Those who don't share this affliction should skip to the next post because this will bore you.

-----

I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The existence/non-existence of a reservation system cannot change the lodging capacity of a town or stage of the Camino. Once a stage is full, it is full.

-----

Case A: Number of arrivals exceeds number of beds.

Some arrivals will be bed-less.

It is impossible for the presence of a reservation system to make that situation worse, but it can make things better for the reservers by providing them with advance information enabling planning.

There will be a bed-race, but a reservation system enables reservers to know exactly where they are going, and to *notionally* race ahead to their destination super-early, getting their feet in the door, which is of course the whole point of making a reservation.

All non-reservers will arrive in real time later and must scramble for a bed. This will be true regardless of how many people, if any, use a reservation system.

If there is no reservation system, everyone is a non-reserver and must scramble.

As stated above, there will definitely be bed-less pilgrims. They will have no way of discovering their problem until near the end of the day when they are tired and hungry. That does not sound like a fun and relaxing end to the day, but that's just me.

-----

Case B: Number of arrivals is fewer than or equal to number of beds.

A bed race will be unnecessary, but since the non-reservers have no way of knowing that, there might be a pointless bed-race amongst them, wasting effort and stress.

Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.

-----

It is better for those who want to do so to be able to determine in advance whether or not space will be available.

A reservation system has no downside other than administrative costs, even for non-reservers.

-----

Anyone who read this far and can refute my line of reasoning is welcome to do so.

I did get to the end and although I follow what you have said, I think that you have missed one major point. In case B, you said that 'Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.'

If pilgrims wait until the evening, as suggested, to see whether or not everyone who has booked has actually turned up, and they do, then it will be too late to find other accommodation.

 

[Robo]

There could be another factor that comes into play here, that I don't think has been mentioned.
Tour Groups.

It might be the case that as a greater number of Albergues take bookings, so tour groups will move in to utlise those more. It's a money making opportunity.

On my last Camino, when I spent a few days crossingte Frances, there were stories of a group of 90 Koreans booking everything out as they went.

When some places don't take bookings, it keeps the tour groups out and provides additional options for the DIY Pilgrims.

But of course it brings us back to the real issue.
A lack of beds on certain routes at certain times of the year.

Potentialy, as the accomodation "choke points" get worse over time, people will vote with their feet and walk other routes. But that is unlikely. First time Pilgrims will be drawn to the most popular routes still, and may not be aware of the choke points. Or the fear of it, pushes them to use Tour Companies, and the whole circle of increased commercialisation continues.

More beds seems to be the answer, but who takes the commercial risk in developing infrastructure to stay ahead of the growth curve? If run on a commefcial basis, then occupancy rates will influence pricing. Excess (unused) beds, equates to higher bed prices.

A quandry.......

 

[lalaone]

I am a retired systems analyst cursed with an engineering technologist's brain that insists on analyzing and thoroughly understanding problems, especially those pertaining to processes and systems. Those who don't share this affliction should skip to the next post because this will bore you.

-----

I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The existence/non-existence of a reservation system cannot change the lodging capacity of a town or stage of the Camino. Once a stage is full, it is full.

-----

Case A: Number of arrivals exceeds number of beds.

Some arrivals will be bed-less.

It is impossible for the presence of a reservation system to make that situation worse, but it can make things better for the reservers by providing them with advance information enabling planning.

There will be a bed-race, but a reservation system enables reservers to know exactly where they are going, and to *notionally* race ahead to their destination super-early, getting their feet in the door, which is of course the whole point of making a reservation.

All non-reservers will arrive in real time later and must scramble for a bed. This will be true regardless of how many people, if any, use a reservation system.

If there is no reservation system, everyone is a non-reserver and must scramble.

As stated above, there will definitely be bed-less non-reservers. They will have no way of discovering their problem until near the end of the day when they are tired and hungry. That does not sound like a fun and relaxing end to the day, but that's just me.

-----

Case B: Number of arrivals is fewer than or equal to number of beds.

A bed race will be unnecessary, but since the non-reservers have no way of knowing that, there might be a pointless bed-race amongst them, wasting effort and stress.

Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.

-----

It is better for those who want to do so to be able to determine in advance whether or not space will be available.

A reservation system has no downside other than administrative costs, even for non-reservers.

-----

Anyone who read this far and can refute my line of reasoning is welcome to do so.

Hi Pilgrim9, Nice thoughts and thanks for sharing. Definitely not qualified to opine as an engineer, but I appreciate your thought experiment and wonder how you would tie it into game theory.

My first instinct is that a reservation system changes things into something far more strategic than a walk-in system, changing "outcomes" or even introducing "strategy" into areas which are...uncomfortable to consider. It feels like it should be different or operate by different rules, but maybe I'm not grasping the connection or taking it too far. I do appreciate your point that there are sometimes limited spaces.

 

[Robo]

Ultimately, I believe the whole booking thing is mainly driven by 'Fear'.
A fear of missing out on scarce resources, whether true or merely perceived.
Take away that fear, and the need for booking goes away and greater freedom and fexibility results.
(OK, there are those who book for other reasons, such as it being thought of as easier)

But let me illustrate with an example, from one who much prefers to 'free wheel' on overseas trips.

Later this year we are making a trip to Europe from Australia.
Mainly for a reunion in the UK, but as we are travelling so far, we'll visit a few places on our bucket list in other countries.
We intended to not pre book very much.
We are travelling only with 40L 'carry on' travel packs (one bagging) to make jumping on and off planes and trains easier. We don't lay around on beaches, we like to keep moving.

We needed to lock in our overseas flights. Done.
We needed to lock in the Reunion Hotel. Done.
Then we looked at what our free wheeling schedule might look like.
A list of places we'd like to visit.

Hmm. That very popular Greek island?
Gets booked out fast, very expensive, better book a couple of nights now whilst there are some cheaper beds still available. Done.

As that is locked in, better book the internal European flights to and from the island. It gets busy. Done.

And so it continues. We are resisting locking in too much. We prefer the flexibility to change plans as we go. But for example, it seems that long distance rail seats in Europe get a lot more expensive the closer the travel date. So those will get locked in 2 months out.

What's driving these bookings? Fear. Pure and simple.
That we will miss out totally on something, or end up paying way more.

Is it reality, or merely my perception? No idea. I've researched extensively, days of it.
And have based my planning on what seems credible information and experience.
So I'll lock in some key flights and accomodation just in case.

In my example.
I can't risk the exorbitant costs of those Greek Island Hotels, once the cheaper beds are gone.
I can't risk not being able to get a flight to and from that island.
The whole process kind of snow balls......
It's the perceived risk and the fear of it.

Back to the Camino.
My point being.
If resources are 'thought' to be scarce, people will book.......

So I can sympathise with those planning their first Camino, and thinking that booking it all ahead, or using a Tour Company reduces or elimates those risks.

Perhaps it's only when we have experienced it, that we realise, much of that risk was just in our heads?
Maybe I'll get to that Greek Island and find loads of cheaper beds?

Sorry for the ramble.
But maybe I'm only beginning to understand why people feel the need to book or use Tour companies (part of the same thing I think).

Who really knows the impact that this new approach might bring.
(Xunta Albergues allowing booking)

Some will welcome it.
Others will fear and/or resist it.
Will it alter the Camino experience on those routes? Probably.

Regardless, change is coming I think.

 

[Pilgrim9]

I did get to the end and although I follow what you have said, I think that you have missed one major point. In case B, you said that 'Unclaimed beds will remain at end of day. Rationally-managed lodging places will release them to non-reservers and no one will be bed-less.'

If pilgrims wait until the evening, as suggested, to see whether or not everyone who has booked has actually turned up, and they do, then it will be too late to find other accommodation.

Hi Sue:

Your having read my ridiculously long "thesis" proves that you have stamina! That's a survival advantage for a pilgrim!

In my Case B, there will never be any real need for any arrivals to find other accommodation because the number of arrivals is definitely less than the number of beds. All reservers will get the bed that they reserved, and all non-reservers who wait around long enough will also get a bed. (It will be an unreserved/unclaimed/leftover bed.) So, no one will ever be too late to find other accommodations because the need to do so will never arise.

Regrettably the non-reservers have no away of knowing that they will definitely get a bed, and the not-knowing might cause them discomfort, and they might get nervous and go to some other town where they either will or will not find a bed, but all of that is intrinsic to being a non-reserver. They accepted the discomfort of uncertainty when they elected to not reserve ahead. It has nothing to do with the existence/nonexistence of a reservation system or of how many people use the reservation system.

... I think ...

 

[Pilgrim9]

OK, I'm not a systems engineer, just some guy who has been around the pilgrim block a few times. So, like you, I will use a couple of scenarios to try and show how it looks to me. You can then bring your engineering skills and experience to bear and let me know where my math and reasoning went astray.

I will also put forward two scenarios, but they will both be within your scenario A (not enough beds). I don't think anyone is complaining about above situation where there are more than enough beds for everyone.

My scenario A is where some albergues take reservations and some do not. My scenario B is where every albergue takes reservations (your optimal situation). For simplicity sake, in both scenarios I am going to assume 100 pilgrims and 80 beds. I'm going to assume that at the start 40 pilgrims like to reserve ahead (bookers) and 40 pilgrims like to just show up without a reservation (wingers). In both scenario A and scenario B there will be 20 unhappy pilgrims who don't get a bed. That's because in both scenarios there are 100 pilgrims looking for a bed and only 80 beds available. But let's dive into the scenarios and see how they differ.

Scenario A I am going to position it beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not. So we have 40 happy bookers and 10 unhappy bookers; 40 happy wingers and 10 unhappy wingers. These numbers might adjust a bit over time. The 10 unhappy bookers might start booking earlier to get ahead of the other bookers (a reservation race). The 10 unhappy wingers might start walking earlier to get ahead of the other wingers (a walking race). Or some of the unhappy wingers might start to reserve, putting additional stress on the bookable rooms. This stress might lead some of the unhappy bookers to just start walking earlier and hope to get one of the rooms that can't be booked. But overall, both strategies can be successful for some people and the majority in each group are going to be happy with the perennial (until capacity increases) 20% unhappy.

Now let's look at scenario B, your optimal scenario, where all 80 beds are bookable. The first night you are going to have 50 happy bookers, 30 happy wingers, and 20 unhappy wingers. Some of those unhappy wingers will just start walking earlier, but it won't take long for a few of them to realize that they can join the bookers, book tomorrow's bed, and have a guarantee. The more that do that, joining the bookers, the fewer beds that will be left for the remaining wingers, making it harder and harder for them to find a bed. It won't be long before there are at least 80 bookers, at which point it will be impossible to find a bed as a winger. Everyone will have to be booker. At this point there is no longer a walking race. There is no point. No matter how early you leave in the morning, every bed will be booked when you arrive. So now it is purely a reservation race. Whoever gets in first with a reservation gets a bed. The last 20 are out of luck. And the pressure pushes everyone to book earlier and earlier. You may start booking a day or two ahead, but the beds are soon enough all taken by those who book a week ahead. The logical conclusion of this is everyone booking their whole Camino months ahead.

Now this does have a benefit, in line, I believe, with your optimization. People without a bed know that they won't have a bed. They can see that everything is booked when they go to book their whole Camino (or approach the company to do that for them) and just stay home. We no longer have those 20 unhappy people without a bed.

But I think for most Camino pilgrims, a conclusion where everyone has to book their whole Camino months ahead and stick to it because every other bed is also reserved (months ahead) is not optimal. And that is what is enabled where not all the beds are bookable, making the reservation race not the only possibly successful strategy.

Now, where did I get it wrong?

Hi David:

I do not understand your paragraph 4 sentence 1 which states:
"Scenario A I am going to position it beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not."

Sorry, unable to proceed until I understand it.

 

[trecile]

Hi David:

I do not understand your paragraph 4 sentence 1 which states:
"Scenario A I am going to position it beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not."

Sorry, unable to proceed until I understand it.

I think that @David Tallan made a typo.

 

[Pilgrim9]

Ultimately, I believe the whole booking thing is mainly driven by 'Fear'.
A fear of missing out on scarce resources, whether true or merely perceived.
Take away that fear, and the need for booking goes away and greater freedom and fexibility results.
(OK, there are those who book for other reasons, such as it being thought of as easier)

But let me illustrate with an example, from one who much prefers to 'free wheel' on overseas trips.

Later this year we are making a trip to Europe from Australia.
Mainly for a reunion in the UK, but as we are travelling so far, we'll visit a few places on our bucket list in other countries.
We intended to not pre book very much.
We are travelling only with 40L 'carry on' travel packs (one bagging) to make jumping on and off planes and trains easier. We don't lay around on beaches, we like to keep moving.

We needed to lock in our overseas flights. Done.
We needed to lock in the Reunion Hotel. Done.
Then we looked at what our free wheeling schedule might look like.
A list of places we'd like to visit.

Hmm. That very popular Greek island?
Gets booked out fast, very expensive, better book a couple of nights now whilst there are some cheaper beds still available. Done.

As that is locked in, better book the internal European flights to and from the island. It gets busy. Done.

And so it continues. We are resisting locking in too much. We prefer the flexibility to change plans as we go. But for example, it seems that long distance rail seats in Europe get a lot more expensive the closer the travel date. So those will get locked in 2 months out.

What's driving these bookings? Fear. Pure and simple.
That we will miss out totally on something, or end up paying way more.

Is it reality, or merely my perception? No idea. I've researched extensively, days of it.
And have based my planning on what seems credible information and experience.
So I'll lock in some key flights and accomodation just in case.

In my example.
I can't risk the exorbitant costs of those Greek Island Hotels, once the cheaper beds are gone.
I can't risk not being able to get a flight to and from that island.
It's the perceived risk and the fear of it.

Back to the Camino.
My point being.
If resources are 'thought' to be scarce, people will book.......

So I can sympathise with those planning their first Camino, and thinking that booking it all ahead, or using a Tour Company reduces or elimates those risks.

Perhaps it's only when we have experienced it, that we realise, much of that risk was just in our heads?
Maybe I'll get to that Greek Island and find loads of cheaper beds?

Sorry for the ramble.
But maybe I'm only beginning to understand why people feel the need to book or use Tour companies (part of the same thing I think).

Who really knows the impact that this new approach might bring.
(Xunta Albergues allowing booking)

Some will welcome it.
Others will fear and/or resist it.
Will it alter the Camino experience on those routes? Probably.

Regardless, change is coming I think.

Yes. I understand and agree with everything you wrote. It is all about the discomfort of uncertainty.

My similar experience:

Last CF, my plan of walk eventually locked me into staying in El Burgo Ranero, but I could not get a booking anywhere in town, no matter how I searched.

Eventually I felt I "had to do something" to eliminate the discomfort of uncertainty, and ended up devising a ridiculously complicated plan to leave my pack in my hotel room in Sahagún, walk light to El Burgo Ranero, take the evening train back to Sahagún, stay a second night in my Sahagún hotel room, take pack in morning train back to El Burgo Ranero, and then resume walking westwards. Of course the discomfort of uncertainty also applied to the train tickets, compelling me to buy them in advance too.

It all worked out perfectly, the train rickets were cheap, and I got a day of light walking out of it, but when passing through a new-to-me part of El Burgo Ranero I discovered two or three hostelries that I had never heard of (they were not on the internet), that looked clean, quiet, and pleasant, and that appeared to not be full. I could have simply walked in and got a bed there.

Dang!

 

[David Tallan]

Hi David:

I do not understand your paragraph 4 sentence 1 which states:
"Scenario A I am going to position it beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not."

Sorry, unable to proceed until I understand it.

As trecile suggested, it was a typo or autocorrect. I have corrected it. 40 beds in albergues that take reservations. Another 40 beds in albergues that do not. A total of 80 beds for 100 pilgrims. I hope that allows you to proceed.

 

[David Tallan]

Yes. I understand and agree with everything you wrote. It is all about the discomfort of uncertainty.

My similar experience:

Last CF, my plan of walk eventually locked me into staying in El Burgo Ranero, but I could not get a booking anywhere in town, no matter how I searched.

Eventually I felt I "had to do something" to eliminate the discomfort of uncertainty, and ended up devising a ridiculously complicated plan to leave my pack in my hotel room in Sahagún, walk light to El Burgo Ranero, take the evening train back to Sahagún, stay a second night in my Sahagún hotel room, take pack in morning train back to El Burgo Ranero, and then resume walking westwards. Of course the discomfort of uncertainty also applied to the train tickets, compelling me to buy them in advance too.

It all worked out perfectly, the train rickets were cheap, and I got a day of light walking out of it, but when passing through a new-to-me part of El Burgo Ranero I discovered two or three hostelries that I had never heard of (they were not on the internet), that looked clean, quiet, and pleasant, and that appeared to not be full. I could have simply walked in and got a bed there.

Dang!

There is uncertainty and risk both with and without booking.

You have articulated well the risk and uncertainty of going without a booking. Will you be able to sleep where you want to? But you seem to be ignoring the risk and uncertainty of reserving a room. Will you later decide that you have reserved in the wrong place?

Which is the greater risk, the more worrisome uncertainty, can vary according to the situation. Sometimes a pilgrim can be more accepting of one, sometimes the other.

When I was on the Camino Portugues, most of the time I wasn't too worried about finding a bed, or too fussed about which albergue I slept in. In those cases, I didn't reserve. But I really wanted to sleep in Casa da Fernanda and was confident I wouldn't regret stopping there. So I made sure to book it well in advance. I didn't want to risk not being able to stay there.

On the other hand, on the CGA this November, I was advised by someone local, involved with the route, to book the whole thing in advance, so I would have no uncertainty about where I was sleeping each night. Others suggested that it wasn't so necessary. I decided I didn't want to lock everything in. I wasn't confident enough that I knew where I would want to stop each day. I did have a detailed plan, but I knew things could happen that would change it. And I was right. I ended up developing foot issues near the beginning and deciding that I wanted to break two days of my plan into three. Later, I felt stronger and collapsed three days planned near the end of the route into two. I was glad I had not locked everything in with reservations before I set out. I would have had certainty about where I was sleeping at the cost of being forced to stop in the wrong places.

There is always risk. It is all about where you want it to be.

 

[Pilgrim9]

OK, I'm not a systems engineer, just some guy who has been around the pilgrim block a few times. So, like you, I will use a couple of scenarios to try and show how it looks to me. You can then bring your engineering skills and experience to bear and let me know where my math and reasoning went astray.

I will also put forward two scenarios, but they will both be within your scenario A (not enough beds). I don't think anyone is complaining about above situation where there are more than enough beds for everyone.

My scenario A is where some albergues take reservations and some do not. My scenario B is where every albergue takes reservations (your optimal situation). For simplicity sake, in both scenarios I am going to assume 100 pilgrims and 80 beds. I'm going to assume that at the start 40 pilgrims like to reserve ahead (bookers) and 40 pilgrims like to just show up without a reservation (wingers). In both scenario A and scenario B there will be 20 unhappy pilgrims who don't get a bed. That's because in both scenarios there are 100 pilgrims looking for a bed and only 80 beds available. But let's dive into the scenarios and see how they differ.

Scenario A I am going to posit 40 beds that take reservations and 40 beds that do not. So we have 40 happy bookers and 10 unhappy bookers; 40 happy wingers and 10 unhappy wingers. These numbers might adjust a bit over time. The 10 unhappy bookers might start booking earlier to get ahead of the other bookers (a reservation race). The 10 unhappy wingers might start walking earlier to get ahead of the other wingers (a walking race). Or some of the unhappy wingers might start to reserve, putting additional stress on the bookable rooms. This stress might lead some of the unhappy bookers to just start walking earlier and hope to get one of the rooms that can't be booked. But overall, both strategies can be successful for some people and the majority in each group are going to be happy with the perennial (until capacity increases) 20% unhappy.

Now let's look at scenario B, your optimal scenario, where all 80 beds are bookable. The first night you are going to have 50 happy bookers, 30 happy wingers, and 20 unhappy wingers. Some of those unhappy wingers will just start walking earlier, but it won't take long for a few of them to realize that they can join the bookers, book tomorrow's bed, and have a guarantee. The more that do that, joining the bookers, the fewer beds that will be left for the remaining wingers, making it harder and harder for them to find a bed. It won't be long before there are at least 80 bookers, at which point it will be impossible to find a bed as a winger. Everyone will have to be booker. At this point there is no longer a walking race. There is no point. No matter how early you leave in the morning, every bed will be booked when you arrive. So now it is purely a reservation race. Whoever gets in first with a reservation gets a bed. The last 20 are out of luck. And the pressure pushes everyone to book earlier and earlier. You may start booking a day or two ahead, but the beds are soon enough all taken by those who book a week ahead. The logical conclusion of this is everyone booking their whole Camino months ahead.

Now this does have a benefit, in line, I believe, with your optimization. People without a bed know that they won't have a bed. They can see that everything is booked when they go to book their whole Camino (or approach the company to do that for them) and just stay home. We no longer have those 20 unhappy people without a bed.

But I think for most Camino pilgrims, a conclusion where everyone has to book their whole Camino months ahead and stick to it because every other bed is also reserved (months ahead) is not optimal. And that is what is enabled where not all the beds are bookable, making the reservation race not the only possibly successful strategy.

Now, where did I get it wrong?

Thank you, David.

Hmmm.

BTW this will be long. Readers are welcome but might find it dry. Also I am out of practice so there might be errors.

My model was for just one night at a time, i.e. a static model, whereas I think your model addresses evolution of system behaviour as the cluster of pilgrims moves along, i.e. a dynamic model.

Also you have introduced a new term "unhappy", an emotional state which exists as a variable somewhere along a continuum, which is not always easy for others to determine or measure, and might be subject to time lags (hysteresis), whereas I used the term "bed-less" which is a binary yes/no characteristic, and is easy for outsiders to determine. Are they interchangeable? I don't think so. I will stay with my term because it means just what it says and can be easily and instantly cured by provision of a clean dry bed.

I will re-jig my thinking.

Let's see.

There seem to be two related problems:
1/ Bed-less-ness in certain locations on certain nights; and,
2/ A general dissatisfaction with the Camino experience caused by a chronic need to reserve ahead to avoid repeated instances of bed-less-ness.

-----

If the number of arrivals exceeds the number of beds, some people will be bed-less regardless of whatever reservation system is or is not used. The root cause of bed-less-ness has nothing to do with reservation systems or people's behaviour or game theory or strategy, it is simply an insufficiency of beds.

-----

When a Camino has insufficient beds in numerous places as the seasonal wave moves along, only the pilgrims who both reserve ahead, and do not mind having to do that, can have a satisfactory pilgrimage.

All pilgrims who do reserve ahead but don't like having to do that, will be dissatisfied because, well, they just don't like it.

All pilgrims who do not reserve ahead will be extremely dissatisfied because of repeated bed-less-ness. I am assuming that no one will be satisfied with having to sleep under bridges or in farm fields etc.

-----

If a Camino route has lots and lots of acceptable beds everywhere all season long, and none are reservable, then everyone will be satisfied.

-----

Hmmm.

-----

Things get more complicated where a route has "just about enough" beds, and some are reservable and some not, and different pilgrims learn different strategies at different rates.

There are a lot of combinations to analyse.

-----

Hmmm.

-----

I don't have the processing capacity to analyze it at this time.

I give up.

Maybe I will go for a walk.

Solvitur ambulando.

 

[Pilgrim9]

There is uncertainty and risk both with and without booking.

You have articulated well the risk and uncertainty of going without a booking. Will you be able to sleep where you want to? But you seem to be ignoring the risk and uncertainty of reserving a room. Will you later decide that you have reserved in the wrong place?

Which is the greater risk, the more worrisome uncertainty, can vary according to the situation. Sometimes a pilgrim can be more accepting of one, sometimes the other.

When I was on the Camino Portugues, most of the time I wasn't too worried about finding a bed, or too fussed about which albergue I slept in. In those cases, I didn't reserve. But I really wanted to sleep in Casa da Fernanda and was confident I wouldn't regret stopping there. So I made sure to book it well in advance. I didn't want to risk not being able to stay there.

On the other hand, on the CGA this November, I was advised by someone local, involved with the route, to book the whole thing in advance, so I would have no uncertainty about where I was sleeping each night. Others suggested that it wasn't so necessary. I decided I didn't want to lock everything in. I wasn't confident enough that I knew where I would want to stop each day. I did have a detailed plan, but I knew things could happen that would change it. And I was right. I ended up developing foot issues near the beginning and deciding that I wanted to break two days of my plan into three. Later, I felt stronger and collapsed three days planned near the end of the route into two. I was glad I had not locked everything in with reservations before I set out. I would have had certainty about where I was sleeping at the cost of being forced to stop in the wrong places.

There is always risk. It is all about where you want it to be.

Yes, a balance must be struck between the discomfort of uncertainty about e.g. where one will sleep, and the risk of collapse of an over-planned, overly-rigid project due to some unforeseen event.

Many years ago I made a lengthy retirement trip to India to travel around by train and explore about 15 cities. The train tickets were extremely economical but had to be reserved 3 months advance because they would sell out quickly. It required a series of about 16 intercity train trips all booked 3 months in advance. Changes were impossible because everything got sold out. The 15 hotels were also ridiculously economical but the discomfort of uncertainty compelled me to reserve them all in advance too.

It was an economical and exciting adventure but logistically risky because had anything at all interrupted my itinerary, the whole plan would have collapsed. There was no way to build in a recovery plan. I had to be very careful to not get sick, not to miss a train, etc. Everything worked out as planned, and I enjoyed it, but I lost 35 pounds due to stress.

The trip taught me about the risks of overly-rigid plans.

 

[Robo]

Yes, a balance must be struck between the discomfort of uncertainty about e.g. where one will sleep, and the risk of collapse of an over-planned, overly-rigid project due to some unforeseen event.

Many years ago I made a lengthy retirement trip to India to travel around by train and explore about 15 cities. The train tickets were extremely economical but had to be reserved 3 months advance because they would sell out quickly. It required a series of about 16 intercity train trips all booked 3 months in advance. Changes were impossible because everything got sold out. The 15 hotels were also ridiculously economical but the discomfort of uncertainty compelled me to reserve them all in advance too.

It was an economical and exciting adventure but logistically risky because had anything at all interrupted my itinerary, the whole plan would have collapsed. There was no way to build in a recovery plan. I had to be very careful to not get sick, not to miss a train, etc. Everything worked out as planned, and I enjoyed it, but I lost 35 pounds due to stress.

The trip taught me about the risks of overly-rigid plans.

A very good analogy for an 'over planned' Camino

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

More beds seems to be the answer, but who takes the commercial risk in developing infrastructure to stay ahead of the growth curve? If run on a commefcial basis, then occupancy rates will influence pricing. Excess (unused) beds, equates to higher bed prices.

Actually the opposite is true. Excess or unused beds normally leads to lower bed prices not higher. Hence why we often see great deals on BC for example just a day or two prior. Or in the off season.

The basic law of supply and demand is that as an item becomes scarce the price goes up: Paris hotel rooms during the Olympics, accommodation in LA in this current fire situation.

As to who takes the commercial risk of building new infrastructure: if Albergues in any given area have consistently had high occupancy rates during the season then you can guarantee that somebody will seize the opportunity. The proliferation of new facilities along all of the more popular routes proves this.

 

[Robo]

Actually the opposite is true. Excess or unused beds normally leads to lower bed prices not higher. Hence why we often see great deals on BC for example just a day or two prior. Or in the off season.

The basic law of supply and demand is that as an item becomes scarce the price goes up: Paris hotel rooms during the Olympics, accommodation in LA in this current fire situation.

As to who takes the commercial risk of building new infrastructure: if Albergues in any given area have consistently had high occupancy rates during the season then you can guarantee that somebody will seize the opportunity. The proliferation of new facilities along all of the more popular routes proves this.

Yes I follow your logic.

I suppose I was thinking about an Albergue owner who wanted to commercially ensure their investment was viable, would look at occupancy levels when setting prices. If I only expect 50% occupancy as I bring a new Albergue 'online' ahead of the demand curve, I need to recover enough to make it viable. So higher bed prices.

Then as the occupancy increases, and income with it, I can afford to flatten or reduce prices.

But I'm probably over thinking it! I'm sure you're right.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Like a number of topics this has proven to be quite emotive, and some excellent points have been made both for and against. The reality of what happens will probably lie somewhere in between the various scenarios discussed above.

1 point which has been skipped over again and again is that at this point the proposal is just to have the booking's operational during the High season. Many prefer not to walk during the High season anyway, which means that they will not be affected by the current proposal.

And during the High season even those of us who prefer not to book typically book any pinch point.

For example accepted strategy and advice for the first few days of the camino Frances has been to book until at least Pamplona during High season.
Personally I always book my first two or three nights regardless; note that I have yet to walk a less traveled Camino like the vdlp.

The other element that we are conveniently ignoring is the fact that the Xunta only operate in Galacia, and therefore this change only effects the last few days of any longer Camino - by which point all will know whether it will be necessary to book or not.

At the end of it all the Xunta Albergues are being run on a commercial basis and I am sure they will do whatever they feel is best for them.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Yes I follow your logic.

I suppose I was thinking about an Albergue owner who wanted to commercially ensure their investment was viable, would look at occupancy levels when setting prices. If I only expect 50% occupancy as I bring a new Albergue 'online' ahead of the demand curve, I need to recover enough to make it viable. So higher bed prices.

Then as the occupancy increases, and income with it, I can afford to flatten or reduce prices.

But I'm probably over thinking it! I'm sure you're right.

Actually the reverse is true: first and foremost you need to get some income, so you typically advertise your beds at a slightly cheaper rate than your competition.
As you are only too aware all businesses have fixed costs, which remain the same no matter how much product you sell. The more units you sell the lower the percentage of the fixed cost is in any individual product.
As occupancy rates rise you can afford to risk losing the odd customer, increase your prices and make more profit.

All commercial accommodation suppliers, Airlines etc operate on the same principle: it's why you often find great deals months out, they want to ensure minimal occupancy whether beds or seats.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

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I still don't understand how a bed reservation system can possibly harm pilgrim interests.

The reservation system will not harm anyone. But the fact that one can reserve will:

1. No-shows: people that reserved but actually never show up as they reserved several places "just in case".
2. Not allowing reservations in one place keeps out organised tours/large groups with a fixed schedule. Hence pilgrims do not have to compete with those. This lessens pressure considerably.

 

[David Tallan]

When a Camino has insufficient beds in numerous places as the seasonal wave moves along, only the pilgrims who both reserve ahead, and do not mind having to do that, can have a satisfactory pilgrimage.

That is true only in the case where all beds are reservable. If there are also beds that cannot be reserved, then pilgrims who do not reserve ahead and like to walk early can also have a satisfactory pilgrimage.

 

[Pilgrim9]

That is true only in the case where all beds are reservable. If there are also beds that cannot be reserved, then pilgrims who do not reserve ahead and like to walk early can also have a satisfactory pilgrimage.

Yes, I see that now. I missed it. There were too many combinations for me to analyse. Memory stack overflow! I need a processor upgrade! (Not available, platform obsolete.)

Good catch, David.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Ok, a slight variation on the theme: I know that municipal Albergues allow church and school groups to book, but not tour groups, individuals etc. It has been commented on previously on the forum and I myself have experienced it (in Betanzos for example, where they booked all but 3 beds).

What is the current situation with the Xunta's?