- Time of past OR future Camino
- Various 2014-19
Via Monastica 2022
Primitivo 2024
Nada!
It's also the best location in town.
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Nada!What more does a tired pilgrim need?"
In roughly 2 months (and several caminos) I walked with someone only one day: my second to last day was Arzua to Monte de Gozo, and just before that (long) slog around the airport met a young American girl not enjoying the walk. I bored her with silly tales until we reached MdG, but left before her the next day. I ran into her again in the plaza and accompanied her to this place to find her a room, with sharing my hotel room as a backup. They had one for her, and as I looked around, having already checked into the parador, I thought I may have made the wrong decision about my sleeping arrangements.Nada!
It's also the best location in town.
Hmmm. I was trying to spirit that cat away in my backpack.I would not trust that cat anywhere near my wineglass.
When I arrive in Santiago and walk through the doors of San Martin Pinario it feels like coming home. The same welcoming staff and if I'm lucky, the room at the very end of the corridor overlooking the Convento de San Francisco and the direct view of the pediment with it's two beautifully sculpted angels. It's become as special to me at the end of a camino as any of my other end of journey rituals in Santiago.Indeed they are.
I stayed in simple pilgrim rooms in 2011 and December 2012, 2013, 2014 and always found it comfortable and most convenient. Added features are the fact that they are open 24/7 so that you can arrive at anytime, the obliging desk staff are multi-lingual, WiFi is free, there are multiple public spaces for casual conversation and the restaurant (open to all) serves a very good inexpensive 3 course lunch or dinner with wine.
What more does a tired pilgrim need?"
So are you on a bridge or do they issue jet packs to those who take the road to the right? Because if I’d known about getting a jet pack I would have totally gone right at the splitA very industrial days walk between Gijon and Aviles but was also very interesting. May, 2018.
View attachment 108421
Heee heeee heee...So are you on a bridge or do they issue jet packs to those who take the road to the right? Because if I’d known about getting a jet pack I would have totally gone right at the split
Sensing a pattern here!View attachment 108443
Rainbow beyond Fisterre: Walking back into town from the cape.
After the CP, Oct 2019
Theatregal,September 4, 2012. Lighting a candle in the Eglise Notre Dame du Bout du Pont, Saint Jean Pied de Port,
the evening before my beginning my first camino. I attended a wonderful Basque Choir concert in the church that evening.
View attachment 108453
Edit: while Sabine’s photo is clearly a student protest, I had my own (different) experience:View attachment 108423View attachment 108424
When I arrived for the first time in Santiago de Compostela ( May 2011 ) there was a peaceful protest from students.
Ahhh… such a beautiful passage. Thank you for posting VNI love the juxtaposition of @kohara's photo of the Cathedral, and @Theatregal's one of the church in SJPP.
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, unremembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flames are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.
[The closing lines of TS Eliot's Little Gidding]
It truly was. My day and night in St. Jean began my camino in an incredibly special way.Theatregal,
What a beautiful, meaningful way this was to begin your first camino. Thanks for posting this
memento of a special time.
I just re-read the entire poem for the first time in years.Thank you for posting VN
I love your pictures, they are always so peaceful or cozy or beckoning us to follow…if they were in a coffee table book I think it would double the number of pilgrims which might break the Pilgrims Office so maybe it’s a good thing they’re notBurguete
photos taken 16/10/2015 , 18/10/2013
View attachment 108471
Mid morning light shines on the Camino Frances/N 135 in central Burguete.
View attachment 108472
Nearby is the turn onto this more pastoral path.
Lovely town. Don't know if Lugo has more than the usual generous Spanish allowance of festivals, but we hit one too, San Froilan, (Oct 12th) which goes on for 12 days. They had decided to celebrate with a mediaeval fair, hence the very un-21st century dress. They have a good albergue there, one of us was sick so the hospis kindly allowed us to stay two nights in the menosvalidos room. When I say 'sick', I do mean sick. There are some things a hospitalero shouldn't have to do, but they did it heroically and without complaint.Lugo Cathedral, the afternoon before Corpus Christi 2012
Everything has been polished from floats to Monstrance (look closely and you will see the yellow vacuum and blue polishing cloths).
View attachment 108470
Time for me to lace up my boots and hit the road in the morning before the crowds appear
I'd carefully planned to avoid holidays and festivals but knew I'd have to be somewhere in Spain on Corpus Christi...just not Lugo!
Having grown tomatoes this year that at someone’s most charitable might be called wabi-sabi, I am in absolute aweVillamayor de Monjardin
tomato
photo taken October 25, 2014
View attachment 108573
Local color and kindness
West from Estella on the CF grew several lush beds of giant salsify and ripe tomatoes; how tasty they looked in the golden sunlight of October.
When I asked about lunch possibilities the friendly hospitalero in the new Villamayor de Monjardin private albergue offered me this splendid tomato still warm with sun from his father's nearby fields. When cut and drizzled with fresh olive oil it was perfect.
All these years later I remember the delicious taste of that tomato and the kindness of his simple act.
i saw no vanSeptember 6, 2012. A welcome stop! Rest and refreshment with the very kind Man with the White Van on the Route Napoleón just before the Spanish border. He had hot and cold drinks, cheese, bread, hard boiled eggs, pastries, fruit and offered the last French stamp on the Camino Frances. On the side of his van he kept a tally of the nationalities of the pilgrims passing through that day and invited people to write a message on the van.
Wow!! When were you walking?
Saturday, April 14, 2012. I'd arrived in SJPdP 13 Apr with the plan to stay two days, see the sights...but they were predicting snow so I left the 14th . So no one reading this does what I did (which I laugh about since 15 April 12 but definitely didn't on the 14th): the pilgrims office and my albergue recommended Val Carlos--but Napoleon wasn't closed and they weren't saying I COULD'T take it. I had also planned on overnight at Orrison. I stopped there to cancel in the am, getting coffee and telling them to give my paid for bed & meal to someone else. there were random snowflakes from my albergue to Orrison, snowing steady when I passed the Virgin, and shortly afterwards I couldn't see past what you see in the picture at best. I took pics of two or three horses in snow until there weren't even horses around. I also decided if someone found my body with hundreds of snow pictures on my phone my sister would be really unhappy so I pretty much stopped taking pictures. Walking in the snow you don't see anything, Val Carlos is the way to go...I just hoped to outrun the snow. I saw three pilgrims past Orison: two Italians near Roland's fountain, bickering over their decision to walk Napoleon, and when I missed the right turn to valcarlos at col leopoder (which I had totally intended to take from my first planning stages) a young Dutch man (slid) past me on the "wrong way" asking if we'd missed the turn. I told him I certainly hoped so because if this was the easy way I didn't want to think about the alternative. I continued forward in it because I was afraid walking backwards would get me lost since it was deserted. once I was on the "wrong way" (I hoped) I continued forward despite no markers because i was headed down so hoped wherever I was going it would be below the snow line if I had to spend the night outdoors. I had a lot to pray about when I went to Mass in Roncesvalles.Wow!! When were you walking?
beautiful! I love the moon over the church. You know you've spent too many years in the military when you think "why is there razor wire around the church" then realize it's hoops to hold plastic over a garden.First one after yesterday's photo, so leaving Padron, probably.
View attachment 108612
I imagine these last 18 months St Roque has been busy. He’s also the patron of dogs (a dog brought St Roch bread when he’d been sent into the wilderness to die once he became infected with the plague while caring for plague victims). He’s usually shown dressed like a pilgrim, pointing to a bubo on his leg, with a dog holding bread. Imagine my surprise in Molinaseca when I went to the church to see what my guide promised was a really odd looking St James—but it was fine since I’d been making an effort to stop for every St Roque to pray for the dogs so it was all goodColumbrianos
mural
photo taken November 16, 2010
View attachment 108619
This colorful mural on the CF is painted on one side of the Ermita/ Hermitage de San Blas et San Roque; two saints whose lives spanned 1000 years. Behind high on a pole is a storck's nest.
San Blas/St Blaise was a 4th c physician born in Armenia and is associated with curing throat disease.
San Roque/St Roch was born in 14th c. Montpellier, France; he went as a mendicant pilgrim to Rome and is
associated with curing the plague
We had a similar experience doing the Torres del Paine in Chile, except we turned back. When things go horribly wrong, it isn't always because of one big blunder: they can go wrong because of a series of little events and decisions that cumulatively land people in very bad situations. Glad you made it.Saturday, April 14, 2012. I'd arrived in SJPdP 13 Apr with the plan to stay two days, see the sights...but they were predicting snow so I left the 14th . So no one reading this does what I did (which I laugh about since 15 April 12 but definitely didn't on the 14th): the pilgrims office and my albergue recommended Val Carlos--but Napoleon wasn't closed and they weren't saying I COULD'T take it. I had also planned on overnight at Orrison. I stopped there to cancel in the am, getting coffee and telling them to give my paid for bed & meal to someone else. there were random snowflakes from my albergue to Orrison, snowing steady when I passed the Virgin, and shortly afterwards I couldn't see past what you see in the picture at best. I took pics of two or three horses in snow until there weren't even horses around. I also decided if someone found my body with hundreds of snow pictures on my phone my sister would be really unhappy so I pretty much stopped taking pictures. Walking in the snow you don't see anything, Val Carlos is the way to go...I just hoped to outrun the snow. I saw three pilgrims past Orison: two Italians near Roland's fountain, bickering over their decision to walk Napoleon, and when I missed the right turn to valcarlos at col leopoder (which I had totally intended to take from my first planning stages) a young Dutch man (slid) past me on the "wrong way" asking if we'd missed the turn. I told him I certainly hoped so because if this was the easy way I didn't want to think about the alternative. I continued forward in it because I was afraid walking backwards would get me lost since it was deserted. once I was on the "wrong way" (I hoped) I continued forward despite no markers because i was headed down so hoped wherever I was going it would be below the snow line if I had to spend the night outdoors. I had a lot to pray about when I went to Mass in Roncesvalles.
I found the weather in April to be highly variable for the part of the CF I walked and then after changing to the Norte
edit: Thank God for those who put up the tall sticks; Napoleon was closed either later than day or the next morning for a few days. I know many are grateful to see Roncesvalles (often from the hill top) but I doubt any will be more relieved and grateful than when I came out of the woods, and it wasn't snowing, and I saw I was in Rocesvalles I said nonstop prayers of thanks all the way to the albergue.
further and most important edit: I've spent several days in waist deep snow without a tent before courtesy of the military, so I would not have called anyone out in the snow to rescue me. The snow came in faster than predicted, and if I'd been forced to stop moving (which wasn't necessary until I'd lost the tall sticks and was already headed downhill) I could have spent the night outdoors...i just very much didn't want to--TLDR: nothing to see if you walk in the snow, take valcarlos
I would have turned back but there was no road to follow (well I’m sure there was one under the snow) and I was having trouble seeing the big sticks, so was worried once I was back headed toward orisson without the sticks I’d be totally lost.We had a similar experience doing the Torres del Paine in Chile, except we turned back. When things go horribly wrong, it isn't always because of one big blunder: they can go wrong because of a series of little events and decisions that cumulatively land people in very bad situations. Glad you made it.
Maybe a geologist could answer that question... and that sentence comes from an awareness, vague! of times past when seas were where land is now.Bending the rules again, but they are the same place. Sta Maria de Velilla, on the Olvidado. We trudged up the hill, ate a snack/lunch and were about to set off. The church, of course, was closed. Then up rolled a vintage Seat, and the driver and his companion got out and proceeded to unlock the camino museum next door. By sheer fluke, we had arrived just before the scheduled opening of the church so we had our own private guided tour. The little boy in the picture is Agustin Alfonso de la Puerta, who was mortally sick and the doctors had given up hope but his parents promised to give a portrait of him to the church if he survived. One can only speculate what the mermaids are doing here. The artwork is unusual, elaborate and splendidly coloured but obviously created by local artisans. It was a special day as the walk into Cistierna was an absolute cracker.
View attachment 108631View attachment 108632View attachment 108633
Let's hope global warming doesn't get that bad!Maybe a geologist could answer that question... and that sentence comes from an awareness, vague! of times past when seas were where land is now.
Well...and you had survival training, something a lot of us yahoos don't. So...God watches out for fools and sparrows (or both)
Besides, it's an underappreciated and gorgeous walk - as well as being the authentically historic camino. Unless you follow Martin, Shirley, and Paolo as your 'historical' sources.nothing to see if you walk in the snow, take valcarlos
We aren't rigid here. There's enough of that in the world.Bending the rules again, but they are the same place. [...] One can only speculate what the mermaids are doing here.
Well...and you had survival training, something a lot of us yahoos don't. So...
Besides, it's an underappreciated and gorgeous walk - as well as being the authentically historic camino. Unless you follow Martin, Shirley, and Paolo as your 'historical' sources.
We aren't rigid here. There's enough of that in the world.
And I got curious about mermaids - at the time, they were apparantly a common subject in art, architecture, and design in both Iberian Peninsula and the New World.
This discussion makes an intetesting read:
Today I have no exotic mermaids. Just humble grelos. Camino Ingles 2018.
View attachment 108638
Grelos. A new name. The first new learning for today! Thanks to VNwalking and dick bird.Baroque (1575 to 1770) - Cultural History of Mermaids Introduction
Size: 134.46 Kb.;be.convdocs.org
The Extraordinary Being: Death and the Mermaid in Baroque Literature - ProQuest
Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.www.proquest.com
and of course, wikipedia. One thing I discovered is that the Spanish word for mermaid is 'serena'. i.e. siren, which is interesting.
I'll have to go now. My grelos are done.
Renshaw,My screensaver.
I once finished a camino at Granón and took a local 16 seater to Santo Domingo. It followed this road through Morales and Corporales which were almost derelict at the time. It has now become my choice of route to Granón and both towns have been revived , be it for holiday purposes.
.View attachment 108659
On another occasion yes , I was present for the Easter Sunday procession which was from Granón to the Ermita at dusk. To my surprise it was not that small and accommodated the 200 or so of us with ease. The procession consisting of Christ and a separate Mother Mary then returned in complete darkness to the Baptista Church without so much as a solitary candle. The older ladies started to sing and all joined in - MAGIC!Renshaw,
On Google maps your route is marked LR 323 or the Camino de la Ermita.
It passes by the Ermita de Carrasquedo. By chance did you visit?
On another occasion yes , I was present for the Easter Sunday procession which was from Granón to the Ermita at dusk. To my surprise it was not that small and accommodated the 200 or so of us with ease. The procession consisting of Christ and a separate Mother Mary then returned in complete darkness to the Baptista Church without so much as a solitary candle. The older ladies started to sing and all joined in - MAGIC!
From the ancient myths of sirens who lured sailors to their death on the rocks with their songs.and of course, wikipedia. One thing I discovered is that the Spanish word for mermaid is 'serena'. i.e. siren, which is interesting.
I debated the historical issue vs. the views...me wanting to see something pretty much always wins when charting my courseBesides, it's an underappreciated and gorgeous walk - as well as being the authentically historic camino. Unless you follow Martin, Shirley, and Paolo as your 'historical' sources.
The problem is Margaret , for me to be at Granón and not stay at Juan Bautista? Just cannot do without the 'We will Rock You!!'View attachment 108684
I walked there from Granon in November 2014 and liked the youth hostel with dorm facilities and inexpensive good meals. No need for any special hostel card to stay, a pilgrim Crendencial did the trick.
what a magical Camino! do rainbows follow you all the time?View attachment 108685
Another of the Camino rainbows I've witnessed: on the way up to Alto del Perdón, between Cizur Menor and Zariquiegui.
CF, Mar 2014
Ditto Renshaw. I only ate lunch at Carrasquedo and then walked back to stay at Juan Bautista for the 10th time.The problem is Margaret , for me to be at Granón and not stay at Juan Bautista? Just cannot do without the 'We will Rock You!!'
Smallest_Sparrow,Saturday, April 14, 2012. I'd arrived in SJPdP 13 Apr with the plan to stay two days, see the sights...but they were predicting snow so I left the 14th . So no one reading this does what I did (which I laugh about since 15 April 12 but definitely didn't on the 14th): the pilgrims office and my albergue recommended Val Carlos--but Napoleon wasn't closed and they weren't saying I COULD'T take it. I had also planned on overnight at Orrison. I stopped there to cancel in the am, getting coffee and telling them to give my paid for bed & meal to someone else. there were random snowflakes from my albergue to Orrison, snowing steady when I passed the Virgin, and shortly afterwards I couldn't see past what you see in the picture at best. I took pics of two or three horses in snow until there weren't even horses around. I also decided if someone found my body with hundreds of snow pictures on my phone my sister would be really unhappy so I pretty much stopped taking pictures. Walking in the snow you don't see anything, Val Carlos is the way to go...I just hoped to outrun the snow. I saw three pilgrims past Orison: two Italians near Roland's fountain, bickering over their decision to walk Napoleon, and when I missed the right turn to valcarlos at col leopoder (which I had totally intended to take from my first planning stages) a young Dutch man (slid) past me on the "wrong way" asking if we'd missed the turn. I told him I certainly hoped so because if this was the easy way I didn't want to think about the alternative. I continued forward in it because I was afraid walking backwards would get me lost since it was deserted. once I was on the "wrong way" (I hoped) I continued forward despite no markers because i was headed down so hoped wherever I was going it would be below the snow line if I had to spend the night outdoors. I had a lot to pray about when I went to Mass in Roncesvalles.
why here.
I found the weather in April to be highly variable for the part of the CF I walked and then after changing to the Norte
edit: Thank God for those who put up the tall sticks; Napoleon was closed either later than day or the next morning for a few days. I know many are grateful to see Roncesvalles (often from the hill top) but I doubt any will be more relieved and grateful than when I came out of the woods, and it wasn't snowing, and I saw I was in Rocesvalles I said nonstop prayers of thanks all the way to the albergue.
further and most important edit: I've spent several days in waist deep snow without a tent before courtesy of the military, so I would not have called anyone out in the snow to rescue me. The snow came in faster than predicted, and if I'd been forced to stop moving (which wasn't necessary until I'd lost the tall sticks and was already headed downhill) I could have spent the night outdoors...i just very much didn't want to--TLDR: nothing to see if you walk in the snow, take valcarlos
I've seen them on every Camino; never the same place twice. The one on the way up to Alto del Perdón appeared on an extremely difficult day (not physically). It wiped the frown from my face and gave me a lighter burden to carry that day.what a magical Camino! do rainbows follow you all the time?
Did you see these threads? You are not alone in that fascination.I have a fascination for the pre-Romanesque that I can't explain, so expect a fair number of old church pictures out of me...can you imagine carving that window
I would never think that! my reference to easy way is from the Col Leopoder and was from the briefing at the pilgrims office which went like this: We suggest you walk valcarlos. if you still decide to walk Napoleon, we suggest you carefully study this map. there are three important places to watch: turn here at the Virgin. turn here at the cross. and this is the most important: turn here on Col Leopoder to join the valcarlos. This is very important, going this way is much easier, the old way from the col is too difficult, we want you to take this way.Smallest_Sparrow,
What an ordeal you had; glad that you made it to Roncesvalles. By the way do not think walking the Valcarlos route is easy in snow. See more here.
I think you are right!I've seen them on every Camino; never the same place twice. The one on the way up to Alto del Perdón appeared on an extremely difficult day (not physically). It wiped the frown from my face and gave me a lighter burden to carry that day.
I take them as reassurance from God: "Yes, you're on the right path, son."
The photos you post are uniquely yours; they tell a part of your story and how you see the world by the things that interest you. Much appreciated.I think you are right!
I was texting my niece (8 years younger than I) about the Camino Portugues (I think she should walk it with her daughter), and telling here about some of the really great photos i've been seeing here; I wrote
"the posts go something like this:
them: here's grilled scallops and fresh veggies
me: here's a bull
them: here's miles of pristine beach
me: this is a skeleton I'm pretty sure isn't human
them: here are street musicians outside our hotel for the fiesta
me: this is a sign saying "no bears for the next 3 km"
them: rainbows leading the way
me: the stream I fell into and got hypothermic"
I guess I'm still looking for the path, but He hasn't let me self destruct (yet)
I too was fortunate to stay at the San Martin in 2013, 2016 and 2019. What a blessing indeed. Steps from the Cathedral an amazing breakfast included and your own room with bathroom/shower. The ambiance and the entire staff are so cool too. I have so many wonderful memories. For instance: during my first stay and after the mass and betafumeiro I saw a bunch of nuns sitting in the pews then later heard them singing in one of the side rooms, so beautiful. Fast forward to me coming downstairs in the elevator at San Martin as I got closer to the ground floor I could see some nuns waiting for the elevator. As the elevator doors opened I was in a sea of nuns.Indeed they are.
I stayed in simple pilgrim rooms in 2011 and December 2012, 2013, 2014 and always found it comfortable and most convenient. Added features are the fact that they are open 24/7 so that you can arrive at anytime, the obliging desk staff are multi-lingual, WiFi is free, there are multiple public spaces for casual conversation and the restaurant (open to all) serves a very good inexpensive 3 course lunch or dinner with wine.
What more does a tired pilgrim need?"
This made me wonder if there was a term for a group of nuns: perI too was fortunate to stay at the San Martin in 2013, 2016 and 2019. What a blessing indeed. Steps from the Cathedral an amazing breakfast included and your own room with bathroom/shower. The ambiance and the entire staff are so cool too. I have so many wonderful memories. For instance: during my first stay and after the mass and betafumeiro I saw a bunch of nuns sitting in the pews then later heard them singing in one of the side rooms, so beautiful. Fast forward to me coming downstairs in the elevator at San Martin as I got closer to the ground floor I could see some nuns waiting for the elevator. As the elevator doors opened I was in a sea of nuns.Roughly 50, too many to count.
It is great to hear they have cleaned it. I hope it becomes navigable for canal boats, and people use it. Even having a walkable tow path would be great; and an interesting connection route between the Madrid and the Francés.It had never occurred to me that the Canal de Castilla must cross the Francés. It starts at Medina del Rioseco, which is on the Camino de Madrid, and has only recently (comparatively) been cleaned up and re-opened. Sadly, back in the 19th century, they messed around discussing where it would go and who would pay for it that by the time it was opened up, they were already building railways. It would be great if canal trips got as popular as they are in France and the UK. This is an esclusa just outside Medina. It is very early in the morning.
View attachment 108007
The camino de Madrid actually follows the canal for a few kilometres and it is certainly navigable for some way from Medina - they have pleasure cruises, though I don't know for how far. The critical issue is whether it will catch on. Like you, I hope so.It is great to hear they have cleaned it. I hope it becomes navigable for canal boats, and people use it. Even having a walkable tow path would be great; and an interesting connection route between the Madrid and the Francés.
Not open when we were there either, 21 Sept 2019. I must have stood exactly 5 metres to the right of where you did and poked my camera through the same railings. We took a day out to stay in Cudillero, just down the road. It's picturesque but not a fishing port any more, very popular with local tourists.A short walk on from Muros de Nalon , El Pito and Quinta de El Pito Palace, known also as the Versailles of Asturias. It wasn't open for visitors the day we passed by. May, 2018.
View attachment 108722
Smallest_Sparrow,Now Day of Asturias in the rest of the world so...
Santa Maria del Naranco consecrated 848
just a few km off the Primitivo and a few meters from San Miguel, construction began as a palace but changed to a church, once it was consecrated the smaller church (originally Santa Maria) was changed to San Miguel...or so I've been led to believe.
View attachment 108750View attachment 108751
Oviedo was a change-over city as I moved between my patchwork of Caminos, in addition to its place on the Primitivo, so I stayed here three times, twice with a layover day and once with half a day...it felt like coming home each time I returned...but I will move on now
so kind of you, most of my Primitivo pictures are of skeletons and bullsSmallest_Sparrow,
Your handsome photos make me want to visit Oviedo for the first time ...However it is indeed a deep pleasure to feel "like coming home" each time you return to a place while travelling.
S_S,so kind of you, most of my Primitivo pictures are of skeletons and bulls..but even a lost Sparrow occasionally finds a church, to paraphrase an old saying
I imagine "coming home" is how the Frances feels to with every step, how wonderful that must be (and I bet you don't get lost)
“2004 signage on the Valcarlos alternative included miniscule yellow arrows painted on popsicle-like sticks randomly attached to trees, logs, etc. as in this photo.”S_S,
In later caminos all went well but September 2004 was another story.
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