A general "don't bring/don't pack" in your attitude kit

[Perambulating Griffin]

Do not bring hatred or hostility in your kit.
Any of us will carry an unknown bias (that's how it works)... but phobias and hostilities about sex/gender... don't bring that with you.
Don't bring sexism, misogyny, ageism, racism, ethnocentrism etc. on the camino. Remember that for any given walker the camino may be their first opportunity to get away from the prejudices that they endure at home, and while the camino is part of the real world, it would be nice if those of us out there on camino were doing our best not to impose more of the worst...
I've encountered all of this out there or witnessed it being directed at others.
From the "Spanish cultural practice X is getting in my way..." to blatant hostilities of all stripes... put in enough miles and it becomes common to encounter problems in these attitudes.
As a solo walker, small person, I have walked on to get away from a newly divorced man who had a hate on for every woman, and for a lovely young Israeli couple... I have walked on from people with age-based hostilities, and I have removed myself from groups of people speculating and snarking about queer festivals in Spain in the summer.
But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...

 

[Turga]

But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...

Absolutely! –and how much nicer if they started training on those virtues while still at home…

 

[JustOneGuy]

You did the right thing.

But I also think we need to avoid, if possible, taking refuge in our own little bubble where everyone thinks the same way. Within limits, of course! But you can try to convince others to be more inclusive. Sometimes with a little empathy it is quite impressive how you can get people who think differently to reconsider their views. And we ours, who knows...

 

[RJM]

Of course hatred and hostility is a bad thing anywhere, not just on the Camino, but everyone is different. We humans are perfectly imperfect and that's the way we're supposed to be. To be honest your post is a bit self righteous and your opinion on what's offensive may not be shared by every pilgrim. A wee bit of casting the first stone

 

[Bradypus]

But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...

Indeed. And yet the phrase "counsel of perfection" keeps springing to mind. It looks very likely that half a million people will claim a Compostela this year. Others like myself will walk at least part of a Camino without being counted in those statistics. When the numbers are so large and drawn from such a diverse background then expecting unanimity on anything is a losing battle. In reality I think that your practice of creating physical distance between yourself and the most egregious specimens of obnoxious speech or behaviour is the best that you can reasonably expect to achieve. I have occasionally added 10km or more to my day to leave some prize specimen well behind me.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Of course hatred and hostility is a bad thing anywhere, not just on the Camino, but everyone is different. We humans are perfectly imperfect and that's the way we're supposed to be. To be honest your post is a bit self righteous and your opinion on what's offensive may not be shared by every pilgrim. A wee bit of casting the first stone

I'm sorry -- but no. I just saw a post on the forum in which someone made a completely rude, uncalled-for snark about a gender neutral pronoun for a third party.

As the parent to someone who is gender non-conforming, and as a "cute" woman who get snarked at for not having a feminine voice, snark about pronouns is actually *frightening*. Is that person going to shove me off a path? Or my kid should I choose to take *THEM*?

We were genuinely afraid as a group of the ex military guy who was accusing the young Israeli couple of having done something nefarious (that he had hallucinated on all his different 'over night' medications).

And it is just scary to be walking with people who cast general aspersions at entire groups (women, queer folk, a particular ethnicity, race).

If people are offended by being called not to carry bigoted and hostile attitudes, then *I* am not the problem on the road.

We are supposed to have learned in Kindergarten to share our things, not to say anything if we can't say something nice, and to understand that people who are different from us are not to be held in derision.

If that is too great a task to ask people to aim for then the world really is without hope.

"Wah! Wah! you want us to be perfect!"

No... I want people to think about being generally able to see that if someone else's differences are not stealing their food, bed, or ability to walk, then they can keep their snarky bigotry to themselves. If they aren't going to keep it to themselves, then they can expect to be called to be accountable for it.

Let me put it differently: maybe you will carry your prejudices anyway, but the camino is not an opportunity to blast the marginalised.

But I can see that this request for people to think about how their words and actions can impact others is meeting similar bad-faith resistance as the threads about racism and homophobia on camino.

 

[GaTeach]

And some of us do our best to stay away from overly sensitive people. Other's therapy issues are not mine and I choose to not be a part of them Camino OR real life.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Absolutely! –and how much nicer if they started training on those virtues while still at home…

Absolutely!

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

You did the right thing.

But I also think we need to avoid, if possible, taking refuge in our own little bubble where everyone thinks the same way. Within limits, of course! But you can try to convince others to be more inclusive. Sometimes with a little empathy it is quite impressive how you can get people who think differently to reconsider their views. And we ours, who knows...

I see your effort to settle the waters and compromise and I wish that it worked, but it doesn't. I am going to put forward that it's time for the social dinosaurs to rethink or go extinct.

As the one that the ex-military guy was going to *punch* because after he had finished with his paranoid hallucinations about the young Israeli couple, he moved on to *me*... it's not up to me to teach a sexist misogynist to do better. Fortunately, the general group rallied around me, kept me safe... and Mr. "I hate everyone who isn't a white dude like me" left the trail around Burgos as far as anyone knew. But the days from SJPdP to Estella had *someone* from a marginalised group in his sites at any given time and *his camino* was actively getting in the way of a lot of other people's camino efforts.

I did put up with the moaning that seemed fashionable at the time, on the same first camino I undertook, for men of a certain age to bemoan that their workplaces were no longer a hunting ground for sex. Giant eye-roll, and moving right along because they were all about to retire if not already. Still: annoying not to be able to get away on my mobile retreat from what already plagued daily life as a mid-career professional at that point.

It isn't asking much for people who express snark at things not hurting them to stop it. (Because really? Really? one can't cope with the fact that someone uses a non-specific pronoun? It's causing so much consternation that one has to make fun of such people by snarking on this very forum? And it's the person with the different pronoun, who is at risk of physical violence, who has to suck it up?).

Comments about race and ethnicity can put fear into people who either don't appear as the speaker expects a mixed-race person to appear (and so they blab their nasty opinions)... but it's up to the victims to have empathy for the bigots and assailants?

I have spent far too many decades of my nearly 60 years compromising to the whims of the powerful. I do not want it for future generations, nor for myself any longer, least of all when on *pilgrimage* (which is what it is for me).

It's not a big request: don't be an entitled, bigot. If you're actually a nice person with an unexamined bias, then when it's pointed out as annoying/harmful... whatever, then the adult response isn't to stomp one's feet about 'politically correct speech' (bla bla blah). The adult thing to do is say, "I'd never realised X, and I will try to do better..."

We see often enough that women on caminos are targeted by men who seem not to be able to hold on to their trousers and undergarments... and the forum is generally, quite rightly, there to support the women and advise on what can be done. Yet there is resistance to hearing that sexism, racism, homo-and-trans hostility, and predatory attitudes expressed by other walkers should just be accepted with grace?

If it's too big a request to leave one's prejudices and bigotry behind to the best that one can, maybe all the training for camino won't do much good.

 

[KiwiJohn]

I see your effort to settle the waters and compromise and I wish that it worked, but it doesn't. I am going to put forward that it's time for the social dinosaurs to rethink or go extinct.

As the one that the ex-military guy was going to *punch* because after he had finished with his paranoid hallucinations about the young Israeli couple, he moved on to *me*... it's not up to me to teach a sexist misogynist to do better. Fortunately, the general group rallied around me, kept me safe... and Mr. "I hate everyone who isn't a white dude like me" left the trail around Burgos as far as anyone knew. But the days from SJPdP to Estella had *someone* from a marginalised group in his sites at any given time and *his camino* was actively getting in the way of a lot of other people's camino efforts.

I did put up with the moaning that seemed fashionable at the time, on the same first camino I undertook, for men of a certain age to bemoan that their workplaces were no longer a hunting ground for sex. Giant eye-roll, and moving right along because they were all about to retire if not already. Still: annoying not to be able to get away on my mobile retreat from what already plagued daily life as a mid-career professional at that point.

It isn't asking much for people who express snark at things not hurting them to stop it. (Because really? Really? one can't cope with the fact that someone uses a non-specific pronoun? It's causing so much consternation that one has to make fun of such people by snarking on this very forum? And it's the person with the different pronoun, who is at risk of physical violence, who has to suck it up?).

Comments about race and ethnicity can put fear into people who either don't appear as the speaker expects a mixed-race person to appear (and so they blab their nasty opinions)... but it's up to the victims to have empathy for the bigots and assailants?

I have spent far too many decades of my nearly 60 years compromising to the whims of the powerful. I do not want it for future generations, nor for myself any longer, and not least of all when on *pilgrimage* (which is what it is for me).

It's not a big request: don't be an entitled, bigot. If you're actually a nice person with an unexamined bias, then when it's pointed out as annoying/harmful... whatever, then the adult response isn't to stomp one's feet about 'politically correct speech' (bla bla blah). The adult thing to do is say, "I'd never realised X, and I will try to do better..."

We see often enough that women on caminos are targeted by men who seem not to be able to hold on to their trousers and undergarments... and the forum is generally, quite rightly, there to support the women and advise on what can be done. Yet there is resistance to hearing that sexism, racism, homo-and-trans hostility, and predatory attitudes expressed by other walkers should just be accepted with grace?

If it's too big a request to leave one's prejudices and bigotry behind to the best that one can, maybe all the training for camino won't do much good.

I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!

 

[ShoshTrvls]

As the parent to someone who is gender non-conforming, and as a "cute" woman who get snarked at for not having a feminine voice, snark about pronouns is actually *frightening*. Is that person going to shove me off a path? Or my kid should I choose to take *THEM*?

I walked twice with my very obviously nonbinary child and found zero open hostility toward them or us. Sure, there were a few people who might have looked at them a bit longer, either not used to seeing a nonbinary person or trying to figure out if they were either male or female, but never really with disgust or anger. So, I really wouldn't worry about walking with your kid. Seriously. And while we've had a very lengthy thread recently on being Black on the Camino, and what that entails, I don't recall anyone commenting that they were subject to or had seen open hostility (not that there weren't plenty of microaggressions).

In short, yes, all kinds of people walk the Camino, and I'm sure there are misogynists, racists and homophobes among them, its been my experience that outward displays of these traits are rare.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!

Um... wow.
I have very very explicitly addressed the issue of those men who could not leave their hostility at home.
If it doesn't apply to you, then there's no problem.
And I'm not a comic, for which I make no apology.

 

[Anamiri]

I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!

I don't think she's tarring all men with the same brush.
I think she encountered someone who truly frightened her with inappropriate behaviour.
I think it can be difficult to understand if this type of behaviour hasnt been directed at you.
Someone posted here some time ago.
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them

If you've been on the receiving end, it can give you a different perspective.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I walked twice with my very obviously nonbinary childand found zero open hostility toward them or us. Sure, there were a few people who might have looked at them a bit longer, either not used to seeing a nonbinary person or trying to figure out if they were either male or female, but never really with disgust or anger. So, I really wouldn't worry about walking with your kid. Seriously. And while we've had a very lengthy thread recently on being Black on the Camino, and what that entails, I don't recall anyone commenting that they were subject to or had seen open hostility (not that there weren't plenty of microaggressions).

In short, yes, all kinds of people walk the Camino, and I'm sure there are misogynists, racists and homophobes among them, its been my experience that outward displays of these traits are rare.

It depends... and I've seen it overtake a group from the one rare person who kept popping off at the innocent.
The request is nothing more than "while you are training your body, remember to think about whether you really need to moan that one's freeeeedom is being policed because we have evolved beyond carte blanche for bigotry. One may, in fact, be free to say whatever, but there is not freedom from being held to account or left behind for "punching down".

 

[lt56ny]

Do not bring hatred or hostility in your kit.
Any of us will carry an unknown bias (that's how it works)... but phobias and hostilities about sex/gender... don't bring that with you.
Don't bring sexism, misogyny, ageism, racism, ethnocentrism etc. on the camino. Remember that for any given walker the camino may be their first opportunity to get away from the prejudices that they endure at home, and while the camino is part of the real world, it would be nice if those of us out there on camino were doing our best not to impose more of the worst...
I've encountered all of this out there or witnessed it being directed at others.
From the "Spanish cultural practice X is getting in my way..." to blatant hostilities of all stripes... put in enough miles and it becomes common to encounter problems in these attitudes.
As a solo walker, small person, I have walked on to get away from a newly divorced man who had a hate on for every woman, and for a lovely young Israeli couple... I have walked on from people with age-based hostilities, and I have removed myself from groups of people speculating and snarking about queer festivals in Spain in the summer.
But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...

The camino for many is an artificial world of butterflies, christmas cookies and joyous whatever. For others it is just a microcosm of what the world looks like. I think that this is magnified because there are so many that are so "joyous" to be there. Personally some of these people can be annoying to me so like the assh**ls I keep my distance. No matter what we "wish" for people are still going to come as who they are before they arrive. They may hid it some but things will always get so stressful their true colors become apparent.
There is such a well defined line here in the forum and often on the camino of "how we should think", "who and what we should tolerate, embrace and ugg (I have come to hate these next two), celebrate and the happiness and peace found being mindful.
If someone has a different opinion it is their right and remember when you say ugg how judgemental. Aren't you also being judgemental?????
If you come across some hateful ahole you always have a choice. Walk ahead, drop your backpack and take a break, or just call a spade a spade and tell that ace of spades to go F himself and leave you the F alone. This last one can be pretty effective if done properly. The descriptive verb you want to use is up to you.
But people are people. I am sure all of us have met people who others have said,ohhhh isn't that person evolved and loving. Only to find out later, not so much. I know I have seen it plenty of times on and off my caminos. What they are, is. It always comes out in the wash.

 

[nickyvee]

This thread is digressing from what the Camino is about. But it should not be a surprise because the camino is no longer the privy of spiritual pilgrimage. Majority of the walkers are for recreation, tourism, and personal challenge.

One only have to observe the number of people attending the Masses for pilgrims as compared to arrivals in the square. And even inside the basilica cathedral, one can observe that many in attendance are not there for religious reasons, but to see if that 'smoky thing' will fly.

Whatever your reason for walking, just hike your own hike. If it is for recreation/tourism and personal challenge, then enjoy the views, the trails and food. If it is for religious purposes, then focus on the way and the destination.

 

[mike105]

I think it's also important to not stigmatize people with mental health issues. The ex-military guy, heavily medicated, shouldn't be judged on his behavior he may not be able to control. The fact he was hallucinating indicates to me he was probably on some pretty powerful drugs. Excluding him for things said you find offensive doesn't help him in any way. Perhaps this soldier suffered from PTSD, and warranted some compassion and sympathy rather than judgement. Sometimes you have to look beyond the surface and seek understanding. I taught kids with behavioral problems for 20 years and found it helpful to try and understand why the individuals behavior made sense to the individual. Even if their behavior was offensive to some.

 

[AllisonMarie]

I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!

I think this writer is addressing a fairly specific group of men, not “all men.” Trying to make these comments about “all men” is a way to dismiss what is being said.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I think it's also important to not stigmatize people with mental health issues. The ex-military guy, heavily medicated, shouldn't be judged on his behavior he may not be able to control. The fact he was hallucinating indicates to me he was probably on some pretty powerful drugs. Excluding him for things said you find offensive doesn't help him in any way. Perhaps this soldier suffered from PTSD, and warranted some compassion and sympathy rather than judgement. Sometimes you have to look beyond the surface and seek understanding. I taught kids with behavioral problems for 20 years and found it helpful to try and understand why the individuals behavior made sense to the individual. Even if their behavior was offensive to some.

Tried that... the compassion approach. The group who exited on the same day from the same albergue in SJPdP tried reassurances that none of the plotting and other things he accused the young couple of had actually happened... he stuck to his assertions and so we just tried to keep him away from the young folk until they put miles and miles between us olds and them after Pamplona...
And then he made up a rumour that I was having a tryst in a shower with someone half my age, and by the following morning he felt the need to tell everyone he was going to punch me out... because why????
We let him have *his camino* and moved the hell out of his way. The behaviour was not merely offensive; it was threatening and dangerous.
But it is a stop too far for people with unresolved *hatred* of others to demand a place in a communal setting each day. With his meds (that he kept offering to others) and his obvious affluence on display, he ought to have been choosing private accommodations.

 

[PaulMCP]

I don’t think we can change people with entrenched prejudices, but I think it’s important to signal when someone crosses the line into misogyny and racism. Bigots need to know that not all people feel the way they do.

 

[David Tallan]

No matter what we "wish" for people are still going to come as who they are before they arrive. They may hid it some but things will always get so stressful their true colors become apparent.

I tend to be in very much agreement with you here. Yet I suspect we have different views on the subject.

I absolutely think that a Camino is a place where people tend to be their authentic self. Partly, this is because, as you say, their true colours become apparent under stress. Partly it is because they have left the roles, responsibilities, and expectations at home and are free to just be themselves.

Personally, I think that is one of the joys of the Camino. It is an opportunity to see how good most folks are when they can just be themselves. I find I tend to like other pilgrims. But maybe I live in a world of butterflies, christmas cookies (or hamentashen), and whatever.

 

[lt56ny]

I tend to be in very much agreement with you here. Yet I suspect we have different views on the subject.

I absolutely think that a Camino is a place where people tend to be their authentic self. Partly, this is because, as you say, their true colours become apparent under stress. Partly it is because they have left the roles, responsibilities, and expectations at home and are free to just be themselves.

Personally, I think that is one of the joys of the Camino. It is an opportunity to see how good most folks are when they can just be themselves. I find I tend to like other pilgrims. But maybe I live in a world of butterflies, christmas cookies (or hamentashen), and whatever.

In posts I write and in life at times I can appear and sound pretty cynical. I think it comes from my upbringing in a pretty tough working class neighborhood in the Bronx and looking around at the utter stupidity of people worldwide. It is a pandemic of thought. But I digress.
You have a unique perspective (like a precious few others on this forum) of having walked many years before 99% of us had even heard of the camino. I think it gives you in many ways more insight. I don't think you live in a world of Christmas cookies. I agree that far and away there are way, way more wonderful people who walk with great generosity and kindness, then the a-holes that we run across at times.
For this I am very thankful for.
But again here comes the cynicism, haha, I also believe there are far too many people who get caught up in the "spirit" of things and their ladeda attitudes and strict adherence to "acceptable' camino behavior and thoughts. When I read these comments they kind of make me think what a bunch of s#$t and I think ring really hollow. I inevitable think that what they write is way more judgemental than the comments that someone may originally make. People get so offended you would think that the poster had just kicked their elderly grandmother in the butt.
You, David, do not fall in this latter category. I always look forward to what you contribute and you have even changed my opinion about some topics over the years.

 

[WGroleau]

Let me put it differently: maybe you will carry your prejudices anyway, but the camino is not an opportunity to blast the marginalised.

So true.

If I or you believe something is unwise or immoral, no reason to pretend I or you don’t believe it. But treating another human being badly for it is both unwise and immoral. Calling someone a bigot for such actions is reasonable. Calling him/her/them a bigot for their opinions when their actions are civilized is being the real bigot.

I once saw a poster saying “I hate …” followed by hundreds of derogatory slang epithets, and in larger letters at the bottom: “But most of all, I hate bigots.” I didn’t know whether to laugh or be angry.

 

[WGroleau]

As hospitalero for many months and as a walker/bicyclist of thousands of kilometers (four or five hundred on Camino), I have not personally witnessed any of the behavior complained about. But as an observer of politics in USA, I have no doubt it exists. (On both sides, I should add!)

 

[SEB2]

I have held back from commenting on this thread but the oft repeated post based on personal experience in which testimony is given that the forum member has never seen or encountered such instances as that experienced by @Perambulating Griffin has troubled me. I would assume that the instances of male pilgrims coming across a man with his trousers down and his private parts in his hand are few and far between. Yet we know from women who have posted about such encounters on many Camino routes that this happens and it causes distress and upends the equilibrium and sense of safety that walking to SdC is noted for. Now I realise that such assaults - and assault it is even when not involving actual physical contact - ares at the extreme end of the spectrum, but I would ask that those forum members who are not women reflect on why it may be that they haven't come across such behaviour. Although being a white man does not make you immune from verbal, or in some cases physical attacks. I recall a veteran member of this forum writing of his distress some years ago after an encounter with a bigot who was also walking the Camino and who attacked him IIRC for either his nationality or politics (possibly conflating both). He was shaken by this experience, not least because it seemed so out of kilter with making a pilgrimage - which he was. Similarly, @Perambulating Griffin was a in an environment where she expected to be safe and able to relate to other pilgrims openly only to encounter someone whose behaviour threatened and destroyed that expectation.

I understand that forum members speak honestly when they post that they have never witnessed or experienced such incidents but it is worth flagging up that assailants, bullies, bigots - just like domestic abusers - usually make their moves behind closed doors or when they believe there are no witnesses. Please let us respect the strength of feeling and candour in what the OP expressed, she had the expectation of a beautiful start to a wonderful journey with her child and had that stolen from her.

 

[David61]

I think this writer is addressing a fairly specific group of men, not “all men.” Trying to make these comments about “all men” is a way to dismiss what is being said.

I understand your wish to defend the OP but the final lines sums up the OPs view "But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them..." If all the people. No attempt to address a fairly specific group of men. The OP started by dictating what people must do (That never goes down well) then argued a reasonable case but then added that line at the end so it is fair to say "tarring all with the same brush"

 

[Burton Axxe]

I can understand the OP's adverse reaction to the type of toxic person she was describing. I would add, however, that the resultant sense of fear or disgust should be aimed more at the likelihood that he is simply unhinged (further raising the issue as to where the threshold between unpleasant personality and mental illness lies) and less on that person's socio-poltical beliefs.

Regarding the latter, I often feel repelled by some proponents of 'progressive' ideology, not because I am staunchly conservative (far from it) but because (yes, even on the Camino) some become quite aggressive in their advocacy, wrongly assuming that those who don't subscribe to a very narrow set of ideological touchstones are ipso facto biased, hateful, or 'dinosaurs', with the further implication that such people are unelightened or unaware of the associated discourses and therefore need to be 'educated', often imparted in a very patronizing manner. At its worst, non-subscribers become vulnerable to the litany of '---ist' epithets that can punctuate such encounters.

One should keep in mind that there is a constant danger of hypocrisy when assuming the mantle of compasstion and tolerance for oneself and ones own socio-poltical stances. How so? Rather than appreciating a true diversity of perspectives, 'tolerance' or 'inclusion' often become, ironically, mere euphemisms for, 'people who have the exact same beliefs and values as I do', to the exclusion of, and intolerance towards, any deviation from this orthodoxy.

In short, it is not the belief system that bothers me. I'm quite willing to listen. Rather, my wish to extricate myself from interactions with such people will be based on the personality or manner in which it is conveyed.

 

[SabsP]

Thank you @Burton Axxe for your perfect prescription of how I feel about this issue ( but fail to explain due to my limited English ).

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I understand your wish to defend the OP but the final lines sums up the OPs view "But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them..." If all the people. No attempt to address a fairly specific group of men. The OP started by dictating what people must do (That never goes down well) then argued a reasonable case but then added that line at the end so it is fair to say "tarring all with the same brush"

I'm afraid you have not understood the difference between *all people* and a *specific set of examples* in the original post.
What I said was that everyone brings unconscious stuff with them, and that is the way of human beings, but that it would be nice if we all aimed to leave overt hostilities -- especially those aimed at the marginalised -- out of our baggage.
One uses the "all people" in the wish precisely in order to avoid targeting any single demographic. Period.
One uses specific examples of the kinds of things encountered because they are *real* and compel the wish for a world in which entering into what was originally a *pilgrimage* ritual would not shockingly demonstrate itself to be dangerous in ways not anticipated.
A parallel example of a different sort: no young person heads off to university life expecting that their first week of term will be poisoned by violence and sexual assault and yet those are the problems that plague campus life most commonly every autumn. The brochure does not prepare one for such viciousness.
How much better things would be if we could agree that all people would be doing their best not to pack their aggressive tendencies into their kits.
To avoid the problem of *some* very hostile people, *all people* should be aiming not to be jerks.
I don't see why this is a difficult or offensive comment.
The vast majority of people do not carry the kinds of volatility that my OP addresses, but some people do, and I've completed enough KMs out there to know that it only takes one person to do a pile of damage.
I never expected to meet with the kind of sexism that would end up yelling at young German women who did not want the drunk "reverse pilgrim's" Orujo that they were "frigid" because they had had to become adamantly forceful in the refusal of the vile liquor. I did not expect to arrive to the forum board finding a post sniping (at no person in particular) about they/them pronoun useage -- the effect being a reminder to people who do use they/them that they are an open target for some. And yes... in fact... I have met more and more non-binary folk on caminos in the last few years, so yes it does matter, and no, the non-binary person is not hurting any of us by sharing the air.
With thanks to @SEB2 and others who have pointed out that when people use the "Well, I've never seen it" line to dismiss the reports of prejudice or aggression that others have either witnessed or experienced, the powerful message is in the realm of, "My comfortable complacency is more important than being a witness or advocate to prevent future harms; the suffering of others is no concern of mine."
If *all people* put the effort into avoiding being jerks and less energy into defending jerks, things would be better. But *some people* (in my example a specific man) get away with a lot because *too many people* turn a dismiss and discount as some version of 'hysterical' the testimony of victims, and seek to silence those who would try to put things right.
If I thought that I would meet this much resistance on an actual camino to "don't be an arse", I would give up entirely.
Thankfully apologists for nastiness are relatively rare on a real camino, but that the truly vicious and hostile show up on camino continues to surprise me.
And no, tolerance of difference does not mandate tolerating hostile behaviour as either victim or witness. Tolerance of difference means that I walk with and enjoy the company of people from many different ways of being in the world. The first person I was friendly with on my first camino was the man who by the end of the first 24 hours was threatening to harm people. I had not written him out at the beginning, but I wish I had. However, as I don't like to write people off at the start, I do wish everyone would be aiming to be their kindest self, and that nobody would be packing their worst intentions into their kits.
It's amazing to me that this is a controversial wish.

 

[mike105]

I think the point some people are making is that it isn't what you say, but how you say it.
For example, you say you were surprised and dismayed to encounter bigotry on the Camino. I will assume that's before your first Camino. Others that have walked the Camino say that wasn't their experience. You say saying that is dismissive of the bigotry you experienced, and it basically means "the suffering of others is no concern of mine."
But I think it's quite possible that, like you before walking the Camino, they, after experiencing the Camino, are surprised at what you went through. Possibly because it contradicts their lived experience. In no way would I conclude it means they don't care about the suffering of others. It could just mean that wasn't their experience.
I think everyone though, agrees with your original idea of people not being racist etc. and not bringing it with them.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I'm so glad that in real life the people I walk with and become friends with on each camino (who are usually far older than I, and *usually* less "liberal") are disinclined to worry more about perceived "tone" than they are about the facts of appalling, obnoxious and harmful *behaviour* that nobody needs or wants to be have to address while "out there".

 

[David Tallan]

I think the point some people are making is that it isn't what you say, but how you say it.
For example, you say you were surprised and dismayed to encounter bigotry on the Camino. I will assume that's before your first Camino. Others that have walked the Camino say that wasn't their experience. You say saying that is dismissive of the bigotry you experienced, and it basically means "the suffering of others is no concern of mine."
But I think it's quite possible that, like you before walking the Camino, they, after experiencing the Camino, are surprised at what you went through. Possibly because it contradicts their lived experience. In no way would I conclude it means they don't care about the suffering of others. It could just mean that wasn't their experience.
I think everyone though, agrees with your original idea of people not being racist etc. and not bringing it with them.

I think one of the lessons of this is that we need not to judge the lived experiences of others by our own lived experience, especially when it comes to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.

As a middle aged (I like to think) white, cis-het guy, I have lived experiences of none of those. But if someone were to say that they had experienced them, I would never say that their experience contradicts my lived experience. That would be absurd. In fact, I probably witnessed a lot of those in my life and never noticed them because they weren't impacting me personally at the time. I'm hopefully, a little more sensitive now to them.

 

[VNwalking]

I'm sorry you encountered such a stellar, jerk, @Perambulating Griffin . That sounds like an awful experience.

If *all people* put the effort into avoiding being jerks and less energy into defending jerks, things would be better.

Indeed. This is very true.
But sadly, it's not possible. Pragmatically, there will always be jerks out there, or worse. That's not defending the jerks or being callous, not at all - just acknowledging that we'll never be able to avoid bad behavior, off the Camino or on it. Fortunately the people who do stuff like this are in the minority.

My endless question to myself when faced with bad behavior of any kind is 'now what?' -because my response is the only thing I can do anything about. Insisting others conform to my preferences, beliefs, or sensitivities is only a burden. They may, they may not - I can communicate distress and compassionately do whatever I need to do to take care of myself or others, if necessary. But there will always be bad behavior on the Camino. Aviod those people and move on is the best option. And if necessary inform others to avoid them, or in the worst case scenario, report them to authorities.

 

[Michaelo]

I can understand the OP's adverse reaction to the type of toxic person she was describing. I would add, however, that the resultant sense of fear or disgust should be aimed more at the likelihood that he is simply unhinged (further raising the issue as to where the threshold between unpleasant personality and mental illness lies) and less on that person's socio-poltical beliefs.

Regarding the latter, I often feel repelled by some proponents of 'progressive' ideology, not because I am staunchly conservative (far from it) but because (yes, even on the Camino) some become quite aggressive in their advocacy, wrongly assuming that those who don't subscribe to a very narrow set of ideological touchstones are ipso facto biased, hateful, or 'dinosaurs', with the further implication that such people are unelightened or unaware of the associated discourses and therefore need to be 'educated', often imparted in a very patronizing manner. At its worst, non-subscribers become vulnerable to the litany of '---ist' epithets that can punctuate such encounters.

One should keep in mind that there is a constant danger of hypocrisy when assuming the mantle of compasstion and tolerance for oneself and ones own socio-poltical stances. How so? Rather than appreciating a true diversity of perspectives, 'tolerance' or 'inclusion' often become, ironically, mere euphemisms for, 'people who have the exact same beliefs and values as I do', to the exclusion of, and intolerance towards, any deviation from this orthodoxy.

In short, it is not the belief system that bothers me. I'm quite willing to listen. Rather, my wish to extricate myself from interactions with such people will be based on the personality or manner in which it is conveyed.

The lighter the pack the more pleasant the walk, so leave all the extra baggage at home.

 

[WGroleau]

I have held back from commenting on this thread but the oft repeated post based on personal experience in which testimony is given that the forum member has never seen or encountered such instances as that experienced by @Perambulating Griffin has troubled me. I would assume that the instances of male pilgrims coming across a man with his trousers down and his private parts in his hand are few and far between.

Perambulating Griffin posted about bigotry, hatred, hostility. As far as I've seen, the above quote was the first mention of lewd conduct.

 

[SEB2]

Perambulating Griffin posted about bigotry, hatred, hostility. As far as I've seen, the above quote was the first mention of lewd conduct.

@WGroleau, yes it was the first mention, but if you read the whole of my post you will (perhaps) understand it attempted to highlight factors that contribute to some walkers of the Camino writing that they have never witnessed, or been on the receiving end of bad actions.
numerous women, including myself, have experienced lewd behaviour or sexual assault as we made our way to Santiago. In one case the elderly man was a repeat offender over several years and, through the efforts of the good people on this forum (men and women), was dealt with by the Spanish police. A greater awareness for peregrinas (as opposed to peregrinos) of the potential risk in certain situations and circumstances is not about walking the Way but a necessity derived from experiences of life in the wider world.
The bottom line was simply to highlight that posts by forum members saying that they have never experienced or witnessed assaults - be they verbal, emotional or physical - doesn't add very much to what the OP was saying, rather it could be read as a trivialising of her valid anger, but the discussion developed into a more reflective mode and I found @David Tallan's comments particularly thoughtful.

 

[Kathar1na]

@SEB2, I understand the point that you are making, namely that not every pilgrim witnesses bad and even abysmal behaviour.

However, I think that the main topic of the thread is how pilgrims interact with each other and how they behave towards other pilgrims, and not what happens between pilgrims and persons who live along the Caminos, i.e. how (very few) local men behave towards peregrinas.

 

[SEB2]

@SEB2, I understand the point that you are making, namely that not every pilgrim witnesses bad and even abysmal behaviour.

However, I think that the main topic of the thread is how pilgrims interact with each other and how they behave towards other pilgrims, and not what happens between pilgrims and persons who live along the Caminos, i.e. how (very few) local men behave towards peregrinas.

Indeed, but @Perambulating Griffin then reacted to some of the responses to her original post & it was in light of those subsequent posts that I wrote what I did. As we know from years of experience of following forum threads, there is can be a tendency to move away from the main topic: on serious matters because of the complexities of the issues raised or triggered, on lighter discussions because people want to be playful. I leave it to the moderators to determine whether or not my contributions go ‘off piste’.