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Me, I'd go to my local library and ask the Librarian what they could find..
Am I alone in wishing we could stick to ‘can I take my poles in hand-luggage?’ threads like the good old days?
I’ll have a go at that. I found his style (even in Spanish) entertaining and informative.(edit: just ordered the Spanish language version)
I know where thats coming from but they weren't dark ages for the people that lived 'em. Just look at the textiles, the jewellery, the statuary, the social structures, the emergence of cohesive religious practice before the impositions of Rome. They are only "dark" because for centuries no-one was prepared to shine a light into the gloom
Absolutely! I expressed myself wrongly. I was trying to explain that muslims in that era introduced new inventions and views that were still unknown for christians in those regions.
No more than it does me and him!
FYI, Arabic is the language, Arab is the adjective.
I enjoy Jasons Websters books. I found 'Violencia' A new history of Spain was very readable.
I can recommend
How funny is it that I was writing this very thing at the same time!! Cheers, brain buddy!
The Wikipedia page for ‘Moorish occupation of Spain’ has an impressive reference list.
Tales of the Alhambra, Washington Irving
I thoroughly enjoyed and would recommend “The Ornament of the World” by Maria Rosa Menocal. The subtitle is “How Muslims, Jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain.” The book covers broad politics of the era, but the focus is on the rich artistic and cultural climate.
I like Maria Rosa Menocal's Ornament of the World. She provides an interesting and beautiful background how Muslims came to Spain, how the caliphates developed southern Spain (al-Andalus / Andalusia) with the introduction of innovations in arts, literature, philosophy, politics, and science that resulted to the harmonious synergy of Muslims, Jews, and Christians in medieval Spain.
Ivar, our Forum Founder is also a Washington State Alum. Go Cougars. I'd sure love some of that Cougar Gold cheese and their wonderful ice cream. Not every University has their own dairy and creamery
Many years ago I took a number of their courses including "The Other 1492", and "Turning Points in Medieval History" by Dorsey Armstrong, PhD, and several of their Greek history courses. They were all well worthwhile, in my opinion.
i think they were much more fundamentalist. Many christians and jews had to leave and some of them went to the Escuela de Traductores de Toledo.
I joined a tour of the Alhambra with a knowledgeable local guide with university level studies. It was amazing. It felt like I was bring introduced to a family member.
audiobookstore.com
The Byzantines and Arabs preserved the knowledge of Science, Mathematics, Medicine and Engineering from the Romano-Greco world. When the Western Roman church became dominant much of this knowledge was either lost or rejected and eventually had to be relearned from the Arabic world.
yes yes yes was in second grade could hardly read and fell in love with it.
Amazon/ kindle has some
Internet makes it a lot easier than printing to spread garbage. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot of garbage in print. I encountered a book in a library on the Pearl Harbor invasion that starts out with “… a day like any other. Children getting ready for school; fathers getting ready for work …"
Not sure I understand your point , but am assuming you are trying to make one.
Great acourses has a class on “The Other 1492”. Have it and recommend.
I agree history is always an interpretation. in hard copy or not. Yes we are missing accounts from the non Spanish side. When I went to school in Spain of course we learnt 1492 America was discovered , ok thats a topic by itself and the last moorish califat ended. We third graders assumed the moors went back over the sea. Only there was no place to go back to. Nobody told us about the rich jewish culture and its end then. They had no where to go. So where are the books written by the “looser” of that war? I think that’s your point?
Point is to clarify the remark about internet failing to filter out “lumps”. Probability of something in a library book being wrong is less than that of something online—but it’s still not zero. If a space alien encountered the material from my high school class in “World History” they might conclude that the “world” is USA and western Europe.
Isn’t it? ( sarcasm mode off).
The attack occurred on Sunday morning. There wasn't any school and not so many were going to work.
Cardenal Cisneros was who ordered the destruction. Obviously, it was against the previous agreement before the surrender. Yes, for this and other similar things the queen was not very trustworthy.
Queen Isabel and King Ferdinand ordered the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492, signing the order in the Alhambra on Tisha b’Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews expulsion, after more than a milinium on the Iberian Peninsula, changed the course of history. Though via a somewhat different process, timing, and reason, the Muslims were also expelled.
A lot of that is a myth, or if you like, let us never forget that the Muslims practiced the systematic destruction of any and all literature that they considered to be blasphemous, which would have included a vast amount of Iberian illuminated manuscripts as well as most of the Christian literature.
Sorry, but this is nonsense.
“Legitimate empire expansion” is an interesting concept, too …
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Yes, there were tensions in Al Alandalus. Even in the Muslims society. There were two groups: the arab + muladies and the bereber. The muladies were the Spanish converts. The bereber group had always the worse territories and didn't like it. Even today there are tensions between Arabs and Berebers in Morocco.
In a space much smaller than a street in Dublin, igual. Tuppence looking down on tuppence ha'penny. Or the other way around!
Quite.
There's an interesting documentary on Netflix called 'A Short History of the Moors'.
Thank you. I rarely use it, but my neighbour gave me access so I have just watched it. Such a long and complex story. I was briefly in Morocco some years ago, and saw a lot of contradictions...
I agree to a point that the migrating tribes over ran the Western Roman empire and that the infrastructure degraded and repositories pf knowledge (not just monasteries) were looted. However the Roman church which became dominant, resisted any knowledge that did not conform to its values. The church became suspicious of things including bathing! Science and Astronomy were viewed with suspicion and anything that did not agree with Church views could end with a burning at the stake for heresy!
This is complete nonsense.
There has been an astronomical observatory at the Vatican since the 16tb Century.
Nor I would say does posting historical falsehoods and slanders claiming the Church as being solely to blame for the devastating effects of the fall of the Western Empire.
I repeat my appreciation of your suggestion to watch that documentary. I also repeat my deep appreciation of the willingness of many forum members who actually know so much more than I do to share their knowledge.
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I will try to find a free way, without a time limit, to access some of his material. Thank you. I don't usually subscribe to paid content. Unless by real design! Thanks again.
I learnt from this thread that the English name for Isabel de Castilla is Isabella and then I checked on Internet and saw Isabellas ( Italian name) for queens of Portugal and France. Why not Elisabeth?In Spanish we always use Spanish names: Isabel, Carlos, Enrique for foreign kings and queens.
As for Isabella instead of Isabel I saw this speculation:
Makes sense
The Monarchy, not "the Jews," ran the economy. That one monarch, 150 years before 1492, appointed a Jew as Treasurer does not mean that "Jews ran the economy." Although I'm sure you did not mean it this way, this is an antisemitic trope that gets recycled over and over again in order to blame the Jews for whatever social, economic or moral failing allegedly needs to be redressed.
The Jews have lived in many countries for long periods where they considered themselves being from a different nationality and even speaking a different language. This was not the case of Spain because they were Spanish ( Sephardim) and spoke Spanish as their first language. When I visited Istambul forty years ago I talked with Sephardic people in Spanish ( Ladino) and they told me they were first Jews, second Spanish and third Turks. So Jews had necessarily to live good periods in Spain to feel that way.
That Sephardic Jews can code-switch between Spanish and Ladino (just as Ashkenazi Jews can code-switch between German, Russian or Polish and Yiddish, which like Ladino is a hybrid language) does not make them "Spaniards." Yes, from time to time in Spain there were thriving Jewish communities (as there were, from time to time, in Russia, Poland, and Germany), but Jews were never considered Spaniards. So, for example, like Jews all over Europe, beginning in the 13th century, Spain required Jews to wear yellow badges (the badges which eventually became the Nazi yellow stars) so that they could be identified as Jews, not Spaniards.
The idea of being Spanish is a comparative modern one and probably did not exist before 1492. Even now, if you tell a. Basque, or a Catalan, or a Galician they are Spanish, you will get a polite but firm correction.
Yes, in Galicia you can find some urban people, most of them Spanish speakers, who say that they are only Galicians, but it would be very strange in the rural where most of them are Galician speakers.
As one of the forum members who is not very familiar with Madrid I had to google a bit. M-30 is one of the modern mosques in Madrid that serves its current Muslim population, right?
www.eldiario.es
Be careful here though, as orthographic norms established after about the 18th Century do very frequently affect modern transliterations of Ancient and Mediaeval texts, apart from which it was (and still can be) quite frequent that Christian names can in Mediterranean Europe normally be rendered into their local variants, as opposed to the frequent English usage of seeking whenever possible to retain an original spelling.
There are more mosques in Madrid but not interesting to visit. This one has a lot of marble and a quite big prayer room.As one of the forum members who is not very familiar with Madrid I had to google a bit. M-30 is one of the modern mosques in Madrid that serves its current Muslim population, right?
La Mezquita de la M-30 vuelve a abrir sus puertas a no musulmanes por Ramadán
La popular Mezquita de la M-30 de Madrid, la más grande de España, vuelve abrir sus puertas este mes de Ramadán a no musulmanes con visitas guiadas que permiten conocer el recinto, profundizar en la cultura islámica y vivir la ruptura del ayuno con los fieles que acuden regularmente al templo.
A fellow checking in to our albergue had a Spanish name on a French ID card. When I asked whether he preferred Spanish or French (language), his companion exclaimed VASCO! But when I gave the same person a booklet in Basque, he looked at it for a few seconds, then handed it back and said “French.”
Graffiti on a nearby building demanded indpendence but used the Basque spelling “independentzia” instead of the Basque word for it. (Yes, there is a Basque word for “independence."
