What are your favorite Camino misspellings on the forum?

[chinacat]

They looked the same as what are now called emojis/emojii, although slightly less stylised … I thought they were nicer somehow

 

[chinacat]

It’s occurred to me that perhaps we should have been doing this in a group PM

 

[Former member 104756]

It’s occurred to me that perhaps we should have been doing this in a group PM

I don’t know why. This tangent is insignificant compared to (or is it with?) the hundreds of rabbit hole discussions that have gone before, many on far more obscure topics. Any thread that started with mis-spelling was always destined to descend - or ascend - to grammar and punctuation. It was only a matter of time. And it didn’t take long. Eventually - perhaps already - they just become tedious. I’ll do my part and refrain from further posts.

 

[chinacat]

Yes … me too

 

[dbier]

:::chuckle::: I only realized that I pronounced Tineo all wrong when none of the Spaniards I was speaking to recognized what town I was referencing. I kept saying "Tin'-eee-o", and my fading memory suggests that it was actually "Tin-A'-o".

I feel for Jo, above, on the name. I suggest to her to adopt a trail name.

I was so tired on my first day on the Primitivo that no one I talked to ever got to, "What's your name?" They always stopped after "Where are you from/De donde eres?"

So everyone on that leg of the Primitivo knew me only as "Vir-hin'-ya" (Virginia). Much to my amusement over the next two weeks.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I don’t know why. This tangent is insignificant compared to (or is it with?) the hundreds of rabbit hole discussions that have gone before, many on far more obscure topics. Any thread that started with mis-spelling was always destined to descend - or ascend - to grammar and punctuation. It was only a matter of time. And it didn’t take long. Eventually - perhaps already - they just become tedious. I’ll do my part and refrain from further posts.

eh, these ones are usually fun, up to a point sure, but this one's tongue-in-cheek "favourite" misspellings title seems to have given it more mileage than usual.

Fundamentally, language is a guessing game that we play to connect with each other, and if we lose sight of that fun, it's no fun anymore.

 

[David Tallan]

:::chuckle::: I only realized that I pronounced Tineo all wrong when none of the Spaniards I was speaking to recognized what town I was referencing. I kept saying "Tin'-eee-o", and my fading memory suggests that it was actually "Tin-A'-o".

I feel for Jo, above, on the name. I suggest to her to adopt a trail name.

I was so tired on my first day on the Primitivo that no one I talked to ever got to, "What's your name?" They always stopped after "Where are you from/De donde eres?"

So everyone on that leg of the Primitivo knew me only as "Vir-hin'-ya" (Virginia). Much to my amusement over the next two weeks.

"Trail names" seem less of a thing on the Camino routes than the American trails (AT, CDT, PCT, etc.). That said, it seems to be a common practice on Caminos to refer to people by nationality or place of origin as much as by given names.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

it seems to be a common practice on Caminos to refer to people by nationality or place of origin as much as by given names.

e.g., Jack from Ireland in the movie The Way.

 

[longwayhome]

Mods and longtime regular forum members have surely noticed the way some common words are frequently misspelled. Though it’s not a big deal, it does mess with the search function. If you look for trains going to Pondeferra or Bilboa, you’re not going to find any!

This thread is intended to be a lighthearted (but maybe school-marmish ) effort to clean up some of our most frequent faux pas. I’ll start.

ALBERGUE, not albUrgue, not albUrgE, not albUErgue, not albergE, not aUbergue, not alberQue.

Auberge is the correct spelling in French, so I won’t count that as a misspelling.

What are your favorites?

Digressing to pronunciation... There is the humble alberGAY, alBERG, alberGEE, alberBERGY or even alBUGGA (though I might say that if confronted by our six footed friends!)..all of which I have heard as linguistic offerings. Then there is the autocomplete minefield which gets very interesting depending on which language your keyboard is writing in. As for Coor-a -son..I only just read back far enough to realise you are talking about breakfast pastries and not matters of the heart!

Ok, away from spelling, and into pronunciation, that's ok...because I do love words, but am not keen on discussing spelling on this forum...you have drawn me in!
Spanish person speaking French, heard by a Scot...I could not quite get the word I was hearing but it turned out to be that word you quote. What I heard was coor-a-son.

 

[David Tallan]

More typos than misspellings, I suspect, but I was just looking at a post that talked about "cortex hiking boots" and "vortex hikers" that are great in the rain. I found it amusing.

 

[CWBuff]

.... English is such an easy language to learn!

except spelling, maybe (which in itself is the whole crux of this thread)
Russian is quite difficult to master because of difference of verbs and ajectives when applied to past, present & future sences, masculine\feminine adjectives, 'personal' if you will (i.e. I, you, we, they, etc.) or combination of any.
Spelling however is very simple - the way we say it is the way we hear it and the way we write it
I always use this for an example - there is no 'gh' in daughter , it would be simply doter

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I always use this for an example - there is no 'gh' in daughter , it would be simply doter

I pronounce it dawter; possibly the difference between the east and the midwest.

 

[David Tallan]

except spelling, maybe (which in itself is the whole crux of this thread)
Russian is quite difficult to master because of difference of verbs and ajectives when applied to past, present & future sences, masculine\feminine adjectives, 'personal' if you will (i.e. I, you, we, they, etc.) or combination of any.
Spelling however is very simple - the way we say it is the way we hear it and the way we write it
I always use this for an example - there is no 'gh' in daughter , it would be simply doter

in response to my sarcastically saying that English is an easy language to learn after "different from", "different to" and "different than" came up.

English is very easy in certain ways and very difficult in other ways (not just spelling). The transition from Old English (more or less pre-Norman Conquest) to Middle English simplified the grammar immensely, as is not uncommon with pidgins and creoles that occur when two languages smash together. Grammatical gender was lost (there used to be three grammatical genders). The case system was pretty much done away with (there used to be five cases). The passive voice only remains in the most vestigal sense (Would that it were not so!). The verb tenses were simplified hugely (only one form for the past and future tenses, regardless of person and singular or plural, for example). All of these make it easier for beginner learners of English.

On the other hand, English has a huge vocabulary, comparatively speaking. It loves to adopt words from other languages and has been known to adopt spelling and grammar (e.g. pluralization) with them. The spelling challenges you reference are related to this. To a philologist, all those weird spellings tell the story of the history of the word - when it came into English, where it arrived and where from. The challenge of making English spelled like it is pronounced is "pronounced by whom?".

But it is not just spelling that is a challenge. Prepositional verbs (e.g. "take off" can be a real challenge to advanced learner. Usage of prepositions and other phrasal constructions can seem just as arbitrary and nonsensical as the spelling (as per the "different ..." example or "I don't like it but I put up with it").

You'd never guess that I majored in English and Linguistics when I was in university, right?

 

[Paladina]

Can I mention another bête noire?

Different from as opposed to different to
I’ve been known to shout at the TV when I hear the latter.
(nightly)

Edit:
I’m well aware that these are the wrong way round but I found it so hard to actually write “different to”.

…as hard as I find it to [actually] split an infinitive? I blame my secondary school English teacher for my scruples.

 

[CWBuff]

I pronounce it dawter; possibly the difference between the east and the midwest.

The dialect variations aside there is still no gh in it

 

[Camino Chrissy]

The dialect variations aside there is still no gh in it

Of course there isn't.

 

[C clearly]

I blame my secondary school English teacher for my scruples.

Misguided teacher, likely type (3) below.

My favourite entertainment related to English grammar is Fowler's Modern English Usage, Second Edition (1965).

For "split infinitives" he starts with the following:

The English-speaking world may be divided into (1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish.​

This is followed by 2.5 pages of brilliant analysis. Are there any other Fowler Fans on the Forum?

 

[JabbaPapa]

Interesting post.

English is very easy in certain ways and very difficult in other ways

Modern English is mostly difficult in the vastness and semantic subtleties of its vocabulary, as you suggest.

Grammatical gender was lost (there used to be three grammatical genders).

There are three grammatical genders -- but they are weak, from as I understand things, the very oldest form of the language only having two : Animate and Inanimate.

The verb tenses were simplified hugely (only one form for the past and future tenses, regardless of person and singular or plural, for example).

Were I to think that, the Subjunctive mood were what ?

The spelling challenges you reference are related to this. To a philologist, all those weird spellings tell the story of the history of the word - when it came into English, where it arrived and where from.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

English is very easy in certain ways and very difficult in other ways (not just spelling).

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is a grammatically correct sentence in English ... [more at Wikipedia including other crazy sentences in its See also section].

 

[JabbaPapa]

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is a grammatically correct sentence in English

No it isn't -- not least because deliberate obfuscation is, in English, agrammatical.

 

[David Tallan]

There are three grammatical genders -- but they are weak, from as I understand things, the very oldest form of the language only having two : Animate and Inanimate.

As I was taught it in university, Old English had three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neutral. Interestingly, the Old Englush word "woman" took the neutral gender. That's one way you can tell grammatical gender is pretty arbitrary and not necessarily related to how we think of non-grmmatical gender.

i am unaware of any forms of English we know of that really come before Old English.

 

[JabbaPapa]

As I was taught it in university, Old English had three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neutral. Interestingly, the Old English word "woman" took the neutral gender. That's one way you can tell grammatical gender is pretty arbitrary and not necessarily related to how we think of non-grammatical gender.

i am unaware of any forms of English we know of that really come before Old English.

Yes well I got that from a fairly obscure early 20th Century study.

It's not that "the Old English word "woman" took the neutral gender", it's that it had Animate gender rather than Inanimate. Therefore neutral with regard to masculine versus feminine forms, grammatically anyway, though the word is of course semantically feminine.

Grammatical gender was anyway weak in both Old and Middle English, and is weaker still in the Modern language.

 

[lalaone]

This thread inspired me to look up Spanish tongue twisters. Even some of the "easy" ones are doozies!!

55 easy & hard Spanish tongue twisters that'll give you a laugh

Boost your Spanish pronunciation skills and confidence! You'll be unstoppable when you’re done with these easy & hard Spanish tongue twisters.

www.berlitz.com

 

[David Tallan]

Yes well I got that from a fairly obscure early 20th Century study.

It's not that "the Old English word "woman" took the neutral gender", it's that it had Animate gender rather than Inanimate. Therefore neutral with regard to masculine versus feminine forms, grammatically anyway, though the word is of course semantically feminine.

Grammatical gender was anyway weak in both Old and Middle English, and is weaker still in the Modern language.

All I can say is that in my years of study of Old English, and in the four years in which I majored in Linguistics, Animate and Inanimate genders never came up.

Grammatical gender is certainly weak in Midern English, existing only in pronouns. In Old English, all nouns and adjectives had it, so I'm not sure I would call it weak, but I'm maybe there are languages that have it much stronger.

 

[David Tallan]

All I can say is that in my years of study of Old English, and in the four years in which I majored in Linguistics, Animate and Inanimate genders never came up.

Grammatical gender is certainly weak in Midern English, existing only in pronouns. In Old English, all nouns and adjectives had it, so I'm not sure I would call it weak, but I'm maybe there are languages that have it much stronger.

Looking this up in Wikipedia, I see that Animate/Inanimate genders are hypothesized for Proto-Indo-European with the later development into masculine/feminine, which, as best as I read it, occurred well before there was any language considered to be English.

It's not that "the Old English word "woman" took the neutral gender", it's that it had Animate gender rather than Inanimate.

Interestingly (and not entirely surprisingly) Wikipedia says that in Proto-Indo-European, Inanimate rather than Animate was paired with neutral.

I guess it depends on what you consider "the oldest form of the language". Proto-Indo-European may be considered by some the oldest form of the languages many of us speak. Myself, I tend not to consider it a form of English.

 

[chinacat]

…as hard as I find it to [actually] split an infinitive? I blame my secondary school English teacher for my scruples.

I did think about that but decided that it would sound wrong colloquially, so to speak.
( tautology)


Edit: My mother was far worse than my English teacher.

 

[chinacat]

when it came into English, where it arrived and where from.

…. from where?


With regard to prepositional verbs, one of my mother’s favourite utterances was “up with which I will not put”.

Arghhhh!

 

[chinacat]

And: (hang my head in shame )

Old English had three grammatical genders: masculine, feminine, and neutral.

Should that be neuter?

 

[chinacat]

Misguided teacher, likely type (3) below.

My favourite entertainment related to English grammar is Fowler's Modern English Usage, Second Edition (1965).

For "split infinitives" he starts with the following:

The English-speaking world may be divided into (1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is; (2) those who do not know, but care very much; (3) those who know and condemn; (4) those who know and approve; and (5) those who know and distinguish.​

This is followed by 2.5 pages of brilliant analysis. Are there any other Fowler Fans on the Forum?

I sent this in a message to a friend on here but decided not to post it at the time:

“I’m afraid I’ve mislaid my Fowler’s.“

 

[JabbaPapa]

Interestingly (and not entirely surprisingly) Wikipedia says that in Proto-Indo-European, Inanimate rather than Animate was paired with neutral.

Yeah but Wikipedia is not much use for this sort of thing, and it hinders rather than helps.

The old Inanimate gender generally became neuter indeed, as it referred to things rather than Animate beings. Hence, a woman (wyf-man) was not gendered grammatically as an Inanimate. OED describes "wiffman" as a "masculine", but I think that it's a grammatical Animate and a semantic Feminine -- as Masculine and Feminine semantic gender exist even in languages without grammatical gender.

Too many grammairians confuse semantic gender for a grammatical gender ; or conversely, fail to distinguish between grammatical genders when the forms are non-distinct.

 

[David Tallan]

…. from where?


With regard to prepositional verbs, one of my mother’s favourite utterances was “up with which I will not put”.

Arghhhh!

I think prepositions are now words we can end a sentence with. I always tended towards descriptive rather than prescriptive linguistics, even when working as an English teacher.

 

[David Tallan]

And: (hang my head in shame )



Should that be neuter?

Perhaps. That was the first word that came to mind (masculine, feminine, and neuter) but when I was applying it to a word it sounded wrong so I changed it. I didn't go check my Old English textbooks, so I may have changed it in error.

 

[chinacat]

masculine, feminine, and neutral

 

[Former member 104756]

I'm trying to improve my French to pass the B1 level exam. I know exactly how he feels.

 

[Kathor1]

me wondering about what the gender of a washing-machine is

That's really funny.

However, given the surprising amount of recent posts where the word gender appears in this thread, and this about a living language that doesn't have much gender to speak of, and as someone who has had umpteen hours of lessons on Latin grammar (-us, -a, -um) and German grammar (der, die, das) and French grammar (le, la) at her grammar [sic] school and who can tell her masculine from her feminine and neutrum [sic], do you really think in your head "What's the gender of that word?" I don't. I think "Oh heck what is it again, is it la gare or le gare". Often immediately followed by this thought: "Oh heck, never mind, the person I am asking right now at this street corner where I am standing will understand where I want to go to and will tell me."

Kathar1na - Mensch (masc.), Frau (fem.), Weib (neutr.)

 

[Former member 104756]

do you really think in your head "What's the gender of that word?" I don't. I think "Oh heck what is it again, is it la gare or le gare". Often immediately followed by this thought: "Oh heck, never mind, the person I am asking right now at this street corner where I am standing will understand where I want to go to and will tell me."

You're right @Kathar1na - that's exactly what goes on in my head in day to day conversation. And all my French family, friends and acquaintances are so supportive of my efforts in French, no matter how many errors I make.

But getting it right, more often than not, in the written essay and conversation sections of the B1 exam, will help my scores and give me a bit of room to move on more difficult aspects. I am better with masculine and feminine these days. When I think of a word, or learn a new one, I just think of it with its 'article' as if it were one word. I think of the glass as le verre, not as 'verre' and then what gender is it. That was a game changer in my learning.

The only reason I'm going to take the the exam (when I'm fully prepared) is to allow me to apply for French nationality by marriage, giving me dual nationality - making travel a whole lot easier, with no more Schengen restrictions for me. Definitely worth the effort.

ps sorry for the diversion into French grammar. Could not help thinking of my current challenges when the discussion turned to gender.

 

[Paladina]

I am always impressed by the ability of native speakers of Spanish to spell their own language. I have not encountered any Spanish equivalents of shopping ‘trollies’, ‘ques’ and ‘bycicles’ etc. ’Is this because Romance languages are less illogical in their spelling and pronunciation or because functional illiteracy is less common in Spain?

 

[David Tallan]

Thoughts for a Sunday morning: If the Norman invasion led to the change from Old English to Middle English, and the adoption of the printing press led to the change from Middle English to Modern English, will the adoption of the Internet lead to a change from Modern English to Postmodern English?

Will Postmodern English also be characterized by tendencies to self-consciousness, self-referentiality, epistemological and moral relativism, pluralism, and irreverence?

 

[Paladina]

Will Postmodern English also be characterized by tendencies to self-consciousness, self-referentiality, epistemological and moral relativism, pluralism, and irreverence?

Judging by some of the students’ essays I received last semester, it already has. For what I am about to receive, may the requisite EDI* training make me truly grateful…

* equality, diversity, inclusivity

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

To a philologist, all those weird spellings tell the story of the history of the word - when it came into English, where it arrived and where from.

…. from where?

... whence ???

 

[lalaone]

Bless learners and teachers alike! I am reminded of this depiction of Duke Rollo of Normandy learning French circa 900 AD - amusing and relatable because the frustration still happens in classrooms today.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Since we are all over the place maybe I can get away with this [clickable].

 

[Kathor1]

binario / binaria

Sam Smith es una persona binaria. Sam Smith es un cantante binario.

As I tried to indicate earlier (der Mensch, die Frau, das Weib) all three gender forms, namely masculine, feminine and neutrum, are used for a female person and nobody finds it funny or unusual; at least native speakers don't go "ha ha" when grammatical gender does not correspond to biological sex.

Perhaps we can use this as a starting point to discuss something slightly more relevant to the thread title: if and how does contemporary Spanish orthography deal with gender references and a more gender neutral language? Although I am not really keen on these orthographic changes, I like to write peregrin@s. I know that instead of "@" one could also use "e" or "X" to indicate that one wishes to include the "-os/-as" plural endings in one single word. It can of course be regarded as a misspelling.

In German, one can see the use of ":" followed by the feminine plural form even in mainstream news media: die Pilger:innen (the pilgrims). This replaces the former Pilger und Pilgerinnen (male pilgrims and female pilgrims) or merely Pilger (which can be understood as either only male pilgrims or both male and female pilgrims together, just like peregrinos in Spanish). I don't know about French. But it is Spanish usage that interests me.

 

[SBurgess]

I prefer to maintain the beauty of the Spanish language by using Peregrino/Peregrina or, when necessary, Peregrinos/Peregrinas.
How did this thread go so far off the original post?

 

[dick bird]

Sorry, it’s a long thread and I haven’t scrolled through all of it, but has no one mentioned cello for sello? Grrrr.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I'm trying to improve my French to pass the B1 level exam. I know exactly how he feels.

View attachment 160488

FWIW in French Grammar at the Sorbonne, i.e. the highest level you can study it below postgraduate research level, we were basically told to systematically just look it up in a dictionary.

There are a few repeated systems and internal rules, but they are dwarfed by the fact that a vast number of Latin-origin nouns flipped their grammatical gender in French, so that the system is even more arbitrary than it was.

I am always impressed by the ability of native speakers of Spanish to spell their own language. I have not encountered any Spanish equivalents of shopping ‘trollies’, ‘ques’ and ‘bycicles’ etc. ’Is this because Romance languages are less illogical in their spelling and pronunciation or because functional illiteracy is less common in Spain?

One factor is that of the major Romance languages, Spanish is the one that has drifted least away from its Late Latin and proto-Romance origins, which has led to a greater stability in its grammar and spelling etc.

Doesn't mean there are no differences between the Spanish of, say, El Cantar de Mio Cid and the modern 21st Century language, but they are less stark than the language differences between La Chanson de Roland and Modern French.

 

[trecile]

Sorry, it’s a long thread and I haven’t scrolled through all of it, but has no one mentioned cello for sello? Grrrr.

The thread has drifted quite far afield from "Camino misspellings."

 

[chinacat]

... whence ???

Or even, from whence ?
(correct, according to Cambridge Dictionary)

Edit:
It’s an adverb in this sense, so can be used at the end of a sentence.

 

[chinacat]

The thread has drifted quite far afield from "Camino misspellings."

But it does keep wandering back …

 

[dick bird]

I am always impressed by the ability of native speakers of Spanish to spell their own language. I have not encountered any Spanish equivalents of shopping ‘trollies’, ‘ques’ and ‘bycicles’ etc. ’Is this because Romance languages are less illogical in their spelling and pronunciation or because functional illiteracy is less common in Spain?

There is a very close, almost one-to-one relationship between spoken and written Castillian Spanish, in other words a first language speaker can pronounce a word correctly by looking at it and spell it correctly by hearing it. It helps that there are just a few pure vowels and hardly any diphthongs. The only spelling mistake Spanish speakers of Castillian are prone to is confusion between b and v: the pronunciation is very similar. The other potential area of confusion is that Latin American lacks the z/c sound (like an unvoiced English th). This results in homophones such as cocido (boiled) and cosido (sewn). But I have yet to hear of a Mexican being served a neatly stitched up egg for breakfast.

But to return to the theme of the thread, given that Spanish orthography is clear and consistent, how do so many foreigners manage to muff it up so comprehensively?

 

[chinacat]

There is a very close, almost one-to-one relationship between spoken and written Castillian Spanish, in other words a first language speaker can pronounce a word correctly by looking at it and spell it correctly by hearing it. It helps that there are just a few pure vowels and hardly any diphthongs. The only spelling mistake Spanish speakers of Castillian are prone to is confusion between b and v: the pronunciation is very similar. The other potential area of confusion is that Latin American lacks the z/c sound (like an unvoiced English th). This results in homophones such as cocido (boiled) and cosido (sewn). But I have yet to hear of a Mexican being served a neatly stitched up egg for breakfast.

But to return to the theme of the thread, given that Spanish orthography is clear and consistent, how do so many foreigners manage to muff it up so comprehensively?

Because we don’t think in Spanish?

 

[chinacat]

That's really funny.

However, given the surprising amount of recent posts where the word gender appears in this thread, and this about a living language that doesn't have much gender to speak of, and as someone who has had umpteen hours of lessons on Latin grammar (-us, -a, -um) and German grammar (der, die, das) and French grammar (le, la) at her grammar [sic] school and who can tell her masculine from her feminine and neutrum [sic], do you really think in your head "What's the gender of that word?" I don't. I think "Oh heck what is it again, is it la gare or le gare". Often immediately followed by this thought: "Oh heck, never mind, the person I am asking right now at this street corner where I am standing will understand where I want to go to and will tell me."

Kathar1na - Mensch (masc.), Frau (fem.), Weib (neutr.)

Latin helped me to translate a Commentary on St. John during a stay in the Estella donativo.
My spoken Spanish is, sadly, confined to scant basics.
(I can’t ‘hear’ it either )

 

[chinacat]

I always look out for accents on Spanish words, to aid with pronunciation.
They’re not always present

 

[Paladina]

Latin helped me to translate a Commentary on St. John during a stay in the Estella donativo.
My spoken Spanish is, sadly, confined to scant basics.
(I can’t ‘hear’ it either )

Me too: if in doubt, bring Latin out! It’s a pity that most students no longer have the option to study it.

 

[trecile]

I always look out for accents on Spanish words, to aid with pronunciation.
They’re not always present

They are only present when this basic rule on stressed syllables is broken:
Words ending in a vowel, and N or an S have the stress on the penultimate syllable. Words ending with other consonants have the stress on the last syllable.

 

[chinacat]

They are only present when this basic rule on stressed syllables is broken:
Words ending in a vowel, and N or an S have the stress on the penultimate syllable. Words ending with other consonants have the stress on the last syllable.

…truly, thank you!!

 

[dick bird]

I always look out for accents on Spanish words, to aid with pronunciation.
They’re not always present

That´s because there are rules for which syllable to stress, i.e. penultimate syllable unless the word ends in a consonant other than ´s´ or ´n´ (I think), e.g. amor, feroz are stressed on the second syllable, cuanto, tinto on the first; cerveza, amigo, albergue on the second. The accent is only used when the stress is on the ´wrong´ syllable e.g. Ingles would be stressed on the first syllable but it is written Inglés so the stress is on the second. A lot of incomprehension in any language is because people don´t focus on stress and intonation.

 

[Pelegrin]

Galician names with X are usually better pronounced by English speakears than by many Spaniards who say "Musia" instead
of Mushia and "Sanchencho" ( Sanxenxo).

 

[chinacat]

But the ‘x’ in those two words is pronounced differently
How is one to know the difference!

 

[JabbaPapa]

But the ‘x’ in those two words is pronounced differently
How is one to know the difference!

How do you know how to pronounce xi, xerox, xylophone, Xbox, and Xmas, or the name of the social media platform once known as Twitter ?

 

[chinacat]

I know how to pronounce them because English is my first language.
(okay, Xi isn’t English - but I’ve heard it often enough!)

But those two Galician place names each have an ’x’ that is pronounced differently.

I never use the word Xmas!!

 

[Icacos]

But it does keep wandering back …

Or might that be reverting back … ? I don’t think we’ve touched on redundancies yet.

Is touched on a redundancy?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I never use the word Xmas!!

Neither do I as it seems disrespectful to me.

 

[chinacat]

Or might that be reverting back … ? I don’t think we’ve touched on redundancies yet.

Is touched on a redundancy?

Depends upon whether or not it’s a prepositional verb.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Neither do I as it seems disrespectful to me.

FWIW that X is a symbolic abbreviation and not really intended to be pronounced as written ...

 

[Kirkie]

Dare I? Of course I dare!
Ah no! I am in the hae'penny place in comparison to all ye linguists.

 

[Icacos]

Dare I? Of course I dare!
Ah no! I am in the hae'penny place in comparison to all ye linguists.

What a welcome reminder! Isn’t there the Hae’penny Bridge across the Liffey?

Oops, I now see that it’s Ha’penny.

 

[Kirkie]

What a welcome reminder! Isn’t there the Hae’penny Bridge across the Liffey?

Oops, I now see that it’s Ha’penny.

Of course there is that bridge - spell it as you will. No marks for getting it right
You did though! Given the number of trombones that led the parade for me, is it any wonder my grip on spelling is weakening?

 

[Kathor1]

Xmas

If Wikipedia is to be believed then Xmas is a century-old abbreviation for the word Christmas in English.

For the same reason you can often see an X with a similar meaning along the Camino to Santiago. X stands for the first letter of the word Christos / Christ / Cristo / Christus or for the whole word. Look up Crismon.

Here it is in its purest form where you can see the X clearly:


And here it is in a form often seen on Romanesque churches such as shown on the photo of the church in Zariquiegui (after Pamplona on the Camino Francés) and many churches later on including the Cathedral in Santiago. Other letters have been added and you see the X clearly when you know that it is there and what the lines and letters mean:

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Interesting info, but I still don't prefer Xmas to Christmas.
My given name is Christine. I suppose I can be called Xine by some...no thanks.

 

[David Tallan]

There is a very close, almost one-to-one relationship between spoken and written Castillian Spanish, in other words a first language speaker can pronounce a word correctly by looking at it and spell it correctly by hearing it. It helps that there are just a few pure vowels and hardly any diphthongs. The only spelling mistake Spanish speakers of Castillian are prone to is confusion between b and v: the pronunciation is very similar. The other potential area of confusion is that Latin American lacks the z/c sound (like an unvoiced English th). This results in homophones such as cocido (boiled) and cosido (sewn). But I have yet to hear of a Mexican being served a neatly stitched up egg for breakfast.

But to return to the theme of the thread, given that Spanish orthography is clear and consistent, how do so many foreigners manage to muff it up so comprehensively?

There is also a potential confusion due to the silent h. So if you hear a word that starts with a vowel, you won't know if it is spelled with an initial h or not. That's the main source of confusion I can think of. On the other hand, if you see it you will know how it should be pronounced.

 

[Kathor1]

Took me a while to realize Castrojeriz was one word, not 2

That's a good one !

It took me a while to remember that there is no letter g in Castrojeriz and that the sequence of the vowels in the second part is e-i and not i-e. When I searched the forum for the wrong spelling Castrogeriz just now, the system asked me: Did you mean: Castrojeriz, Castrojerez, Castrojerviz, Catrojeriz? These are apparently all the other misspellings found in forum threads.

Spelling the names of the Spanish towns on the way to Santiago wrong is a century-old tradition. In a book written in 1496, described as a very famous pilgrimage guidebook (una famosísima guía de peregrinación) in Xacopedia, the German-speaking author calls the town Schloss Fritz ("Castle Fritz") and in another guidebook written in 1583 the French-speaking author calls the town Quatre Souris ("Four Mice") because that's what Castrojeriz must have sounded like in their ears I guess.

Sources: Hermann Künig von Vach and Nicolas Bonfons

 

[trecile]

There is also a potential confusion due to the silent h. So if you hear a word that starts with a vowel, you won't know if it is spelled with an initial h or not. That's the main source of confusion I can think of. On the other hand, if you see it you will know how it should be pronounced.

The Portuguese were smart to get rid of the silent "h" in words like ola.

 

[chinacat]

If Wikipedia is to be believed then Xmas is a century-old abbreviation for the word Christmas in English.

For the same reason you can often see an X with a similar meaning along the Camino to Santiago. X stands for the first letter of the word Christos / Christ / Cristo / Christus or for the whole word. Look up Crismon.

Here it is in its purest form where you can see the X clearly:
View attachment 160522

And here it is in a form often seen on Romanesque churches such as shown on the photo of the church in Zariquiegui (after Pamplona on the Camino Francés) and many churches later on including the Cathedral in Santiago. Other letters have been added and you see the X clearly when you know that it is there and what the lines and letters mean:

View attachment 160523

I still don’t like it.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

Took me a while to realize Castrojeriz was one word, not 2.

Took me a few years to realise that there was no t before the z.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I still don’t like it.

 

[AnaZ]

Who'd think a "D" is not always a "d" in Spanish as to their use and meaning. Apparently all d's are not created equal.

"It's complicated".

How about this...
Finisterre (Spanish), Fisterra (Galician); I had learned that both spellings are correct.

Edited for a typo thanks to @JabbaPapa.

Could you explain about the D. I'm trying to think of any example but can't.

If we are talking about spelling and pronunciations using different languages, it should not be considered correct spelling both ways. It is just 2 different languages or at least dialects, right?

 

[David with new Kit!]

Try pronouncing "Mahou" i normally rely on my wife reminding me how to pronounce it.

Otherwise, I have to choose a different beer.

It's pronounced "Mao" as in Chairman Mao, or so I believe. At least, it gets me a

 

[AnaZ]

I am always impressed by the ability of native speakers of Spanish to spell their own language. I have not encountered any Spanish equivalents of shopping ‘trollies’, ‘ques’ and ‘bycicles’ etc. ’Is this because Romance languages are less illogical in their spelling and pronunciation or because functional illiteracy is less common in Spain?

The only time a native runs into problems is when they don't know the word and hears it from someone mispronouncing it. B's and V's are mispronounced often. In South America it is rare to hear anyone using the sound of a V. Similar with Y and LL, everyone sounds like they are saying Y, even in Spain lately is rare to hear the proper sound of a LL. From there one also needs to know about the H because it is silent so knowledge of the actual word is needed to not misspell a word that requires an H. For everything else, any1 or 2 consonants pair with 1 or 2 vowels will always sound the same, regardless of its position in the word or what is before or after.

Other than that I remember been in primary school and my father would give me geology books to read and I'd read them perfectly, even if I didn't have a clue of what I was saying.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Try pronouncing "Mahou" i normally rely on my wife reminding me how to pronounce it.

Otherwise, I have to choose a different beer.

It's pronounced "Mao" as in Chairman Mao, or so I believe. At least, it gets me a

Yes you are right! I only learnt this very recently when my request for a ‘Mahou’ pronounced by me to rhyme with ‘Yahoo’ brought a blank face!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Yes you are right! I only learnt this very recently when my request for a ‘Mahou’ pronounced by me to rhyme with ‘Yahoo’ brought a blank face!

You mean it is not pronounced Mahoo?...I just learned that today, too!

 

[SabsP]

Yes you are right! I only learnt this very recently when my request for a ‘Mahou’ pronounced by me to rhyme with ‘Yahoo’ brought a blank face!

Haha I never order it but that is because I consider it the equivalent of Heineken ( oh the horror ) or our Belgian Primus. All known to me as " pipi of the devil ". Then again you might call me a beersnob!

 

[TravellingMan22]

You mean it is not pronounced Mahoo?...I just learned that today, too!

I have been saying Mahou for years and was never told otherwise by a barperson!! Got a really blank look a few weeks ago. As above pronounced as in Mao (Chairman)!

 

[TravellingMan22]

Haha I never order it but that is because I consider it the equivalent of Heineken ( oh the horror ) or our Belgian Primus. All known to me as " pipi of the devil ". Then again you might call me a beersnob!

It must be hard for Belgian folks to consume beers from other countries!! Weak, boring glasses, etc!!

 

[M2ME]

I am always impressed by the ability of native speakers of Spanish to spell their own language. I have not encountered any Spanish equivalents of shopping ‘trollies’, ‘ques’ and ‘bycicles’ etc. ’Is this because Romance languages are less illogical in their spelling and pronunciation or because functional illiteracy is less common in Spain?

I suspect the absence, in the English speaking world, of an equivalent to the Real Academia Española is a contributing factor.

​

 

[JabbaPapa]

Haha I never order it but that is because I consider it the equivalent of Heineken ( oh the horror ) or our Belgian Primus. All known to me as " pipi of the devil ". Then again you might call me a beersnob!

Mahou verde is OK, provided it's either on tap or in a 1L bottle.
FAR superior in any case to the horrendous Heineken rubbish !!

My outright best Camino beer experience was in Lourdes, 2014. I found a place that had several cases of the genuine monk-brewed Chimay for sale, and that beer is hard to find even in Chimay.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It must be hard for Belgian folks to consume beers from other countries!! Weak, boring glasses, etc!!

Yes well, not much easier for we English either ...

 

[Bradypus]

Yes well, not much easier for we English either ...

But you grit your teeth and get on with the job anyway?

 

[SabsP]

Mahou verde is OK, provided it's either on tap or in a 1L bottle.
FAR superior in any case to the horrendous Heineken rubbish !!

My outright best Camino beer experience was in Lourdes, 2014. I found a place that had several cases of the genuine monk-brewed Chimay for sale, and that beer is hard to find even in Chimay.

Though Chimay is, together with Westmalle trappist, the widest available of all Trappistbeers and the most commercial in terms of available bottles.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Though Chimay is, together with Westmalle trappist, the widest available of all Trappistbeers and the most commercial in terms of available bottles.

Not the Chimay actually brewed by the monks. That one is extremely hard to find.

And Spencer Trappist ale is likely to be the most commercial of them all ...

I'd really like to try both Westleteren and Tynt Meadow !!

 

[Mycroft]

Mods and longtime regular forum members have surely noticed the way some common words are frequently misspelled. Though it’s not a big deal, it does mess with the search function. If you look for trains going to Pondeferra or Bilboa, you’re not going to find any!

What are your favorites?

Not only found here: Busses instead of Buses

 

[FourSeasons]

Even though I’m a “veteran pilgrim” here’s a misspelled word I keep getting dinged on here in the forum. I’ve been told several times a correction has been made because it messes with the search option. I totally get it. I’ll try to be more attentive when using this word in the future. Dang auto correct.

AlbUrgue (the way it always comes out when I type on my phone)

AlbErgue (the correct way)

Happy searching.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

AlbUrgue (the way it always comes out when I type on my phone)

AlbErgue (the correct way)

I often find myself having to correct this, too, and wonder why autocorrect doesn't consistently get the hint and leave me to my own spelling of the word..

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Dang auto correct.

The spelling mistake I got called out on wasn't automatically entered but it was presented for me to constantly choose. I must have typed out Sahagün once instead of Sahagún and from then on that was presented as my option. Since I rarely used the name and ü is valid Spanish I kept picking it.

Now that I've used the bad spelling again I've got to be careful not to use it if it shows up again.

 

[chinacat]

I often find myself having to correct this, too, and wonder why autocorrect doesn't consistently get the hint and leave me to my own spelling of the word..

yeah, me too

 

[trecile]

I often find myself having to correct this, too, and wonder why autocorrect doesn't consistently get the hint and leave me to my own spelling of the word..

On my Android phone's keyboard app I can add words to my personal dictionary. My keyboard also has a Spanish dictionary built in, so that helps. But it does still try to turn Gronze into Bronze!

 

[chinacat]

I think touching the left hand word of the 3 presented - or one, if it’s on its own - has the effect of adding a word to the dictionary on an iPhone/iPad.
I don’t have a Spanish keyboard on my iPad, though it might be a good idea for occasional use I have French, and English (UK), of course

 

[dick bird]

Grenada for Granada. Guilty m´lud.

 

[VNwalking]

THE APOSTROPHE PROTECTION SOCIETY HAS RISEN FROM THE ASHES, STRONGER THAN EVER.

Such good news. This cheers me up immensely about the state of the world.

Are there any other Fowler Fans on the Forum?

But it does keep wandering back

Not all who wander are lost.
But my goodness, such wandering.
Thanks, everyone, for the multiple chuckles.