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“An” American President, but we’re not talking about grammar, are we.A American President while on a visit to Australia made a speach and said he would like to thank the Austrian Navy for their help.
Both 'pintxos' and 'pinchos' are correct. The first one is the Basque spelling. 'Tx' is not a letter combination we have in Spanish; we use 'ch' instead, hence 'pinchos' in Spanish.Yes, but I often see “pinchos”.
In theory, -ll- and -y- are pronounced differently in Spanish. The reality is that most speakers pronounce both as -y-. The 'proper' -ll- sound can be heard mainly in areas where Catalan is spoken (because they have that sound in Catalan). It can also be heard in some very specific areas where Catalan is not spoken, but for most of us, -ll- and -y- sound the same.Pronunciation of -ll- varies between Spaniards ; in the way I learned it in Catalonia (Castilian spoken in the Catalan manner, not Catalàn itself), there's a silent -l- before the -y-. Some other Spaniards would pronounce the -l- more audibly.
Botafumeiro is a word that I can write by now without having to check the correct spelling. I am less confident about tiraboleiros. I sort of envy those posters who call them "monks", "priests" or "Knights of the Order of Santiago" - because that's who they think the men are who pull the ropes to make the censer swing.Nobody has mentioned (till now) the various spellings of 'Botafumeiro'
Not knowing much about Spanish spelling rules in the beginning, I had no doubts whatsoever that the name of the town of Sarria is pronounced like the name Maria in English. As my knowledge of Spanish progressed, I was even tempted to write it as Sarría. I don't think that I ever did but a quick Google search of the forum reveals that there are 48 occurrences of Sarría in the forum's posts.I asked the taxi driver in Sarria to tell me how to say the name. Where is the accent. She pronounced it like Sorry-ya, not Sa-Rye-ya.
But I ordered Tapas.Both 'pintxos' and 'pinchos' are correct. The first one is the Basque spelling. 'Tx' is not a letter combination we have in Spanish; we use 'ch' instead, hence 'pinchos' in Spanish.
After noticing that the name of the town is indeed correctly spelled with "ll" in some languages, I got curious and had a look at the books of Walter Starkie and Georgiana Goddard King, both of them widely known scholars and eminent specialists in Hispanic topics. Both published well-known books in English about the medieval pilgrimage way to Santiago, namely in 1957 and in 1920.Compostella
Exactly -- though even in Catalonia in the 1970s, many viewed the phonetic distinction as being old-fashioned.In theory, -ll- and -y- are pronounced differently in Spanish. The reality is that most speakers pronounce both as -y-. The 'proper' -ll- sound can be heard mainly in areas where Catalan is spoken (because they have that sound in Catalan). It can also be heard in some very specific areas where Catalan is not spoken, but for most of us, -ll- and -y- sound the same.
I had a Spanish teacher in primary school who came from an area where they differentiate these 2 sounds. I remember the poor man pronouncing words spelled with -ll- and words spelled with -y- very carefully, exaggerating a lot, to show us the difference but none of us could hear it. We were looking at each other thinking 'what is he talking about?'I can hear the difference now and if I make an effort I could pronounce -ll- but it's quite irrelevant.
A pincho is a type of tapa.But I ordered Tapas.
Might not be helpful with regard to Llangranog in Wales near which I lived in my childhood ...After noticing that the name of the town is indeed correctly spelled with "ll" in some languages, I got curious and had a look at the books of Walter Starkie and Georgiana Goddard King, both of them widely known scholars and eminent specialists in Hispanic topics.
Despite living in France and having good French culture, I will always write Marseilles and Lyons in English, instead of the normal French forms.I now wonder when and why the town of the apostle's tomb lost its second "l" in English orthography, together with a few other towns in Spain who also lost their English spelling and unlike say Rome (Roma) or Lisbon (Lisboa) or Cologne (Köln) who have kept their Anglicised names so far.
OTOH orthography does evolve just as pronunciation does.Fwiw, in 1920, King refers to Compostella 22 times in vol 1 of "The Way of Saint James", and only once to Compostela when she quotes the Spanish title of an earlier book. She also refers numerous times to Pampeluna and Corunna instead of Pamplona and Coruña.
Otherwise the name of the town Estella is from a translation into Latin of the Basque Lizarra (Star) > Latin Stella > Town name Estella, and not from Spanish Estrella.By 1957, Starkie had already dropped Pampeluna altogether in favour of Pamplona and alternates between Corunna and Coruña. He does refer to Santiago de Compostela (22x) but this is dwarfed by his many references to Compostella (139 x) such as shrine of Compostella, routes to Compostella, pilgrimage to Compostella, tomb at Compostella.
Yes -- they're all liquid consonants and inherently unstable.Possibly there is a connection between l, ll, and r ?
But I ordered Tapas.
I think @FourSeasons was being funny.A pincho is a type of tapa.
The -nn- is a known alternative spelling of -ñ-.
I did some lexicography FWIW -- as to his "opinion", well I'm still going to believe my primary school teacher in Catalonia in the early 1970s when he he explained to us why some words with -ñ- were spelt -nn- in some books.This linguist has it the other way around.
Of course -- I know this. I was referencing the movie "The Way" when Tom was in Pamplona with Yost from Amsterdam and wanted to order tapas but Yost informed him it is pinchos in Pamplona. When the waiter came over Tom proceeded to order tapas and was then schooled about pinchos by the waiter, leaving him quite embarrassed. It's a funnyA pincho is a type of tapa.
I remember that from the movie, as well.Of course -- I know this. I was referencing the movie "The Way" when Tom was in Pamplona with Yost from Amsterdam and wanted to order tapas but Yost informed him it is pinchos in Pamplona. When the waiter came over Tom proceeded to order tapas and was then schooled about pinchos by the waiter, leaving him quite embarrassed. It's a funny---- come on, don't you ever laugh?
Camino humour.
I love Camino humor on the forum, as it can sometimes feel like a breather and often tickles my funny bone; as long as it isn't biting, sarcastic, and with wayward innuendo.Camino humour.Or so I thought.
My apologies. My brain had a short circuit or something and I misread or misinterpreted your post. Nativlang discussed how ñ came about from double n long ago and you, if I'm reading you correctly this time, are talking about how in contemporary times the double n is used when the letter ñ is not available.I did some lexicography FWIW -- as to his "opinion", well I'm still going to believe my primary school teacher in Catalonia in the early 1970s when he he explained to us why some words with -ñ- were spelt -nn- in some books.
Off beat humour? I don’t remember much of the movie, and certainly not the bit referred to here, but this is the type of comment my baby brother (now 64 yrs old) would come up with; the kind of comment that would send me into peals of laughter.But I ordered Tapas.
I wonder how many still say "El Ferrol del Caudillo"?Most older locals still say the " old names".
This is another case where it took me a while before I was certain how to spell this placename when writing in English without having to doublecheck first. I am still not certain whether I ought to give preference to the Spanish term or the Galician term when I write in EnglishHow about this...Finisterre (Spanish), Fisterra (Galician)
I like Finisterre because it says "end of the world" more obviously to me than Fisterra. But that is a personal preference in this specific instance and not an indication more broadly of a preference between Galician and Castellano spellings.This is another case where it took me a while before I was certain how to spell this placename when writing in English without having to doublecheck first. I am still not certain whether I ought to give preference to the Spanish term or the Galician term when I write in English. The majority of non-Spanish speakers won't mind or won't notice but I know how sensitive this topic can be in some regions - whether a historical placename or the placename of the dominant language is used in English or not.
Finisterre / Fisterra often reminds me of the medieval authors of guidebooks who wrote for a German-speaking audience and called it Finster Ster (which means Dark Star) because that's what it sounded like to their ears. I guess that they and their readers were not aware of any end-of-the-world mythology or myth. There is even a Xacopedia article about this: Estrella Oscura.
I am bilingual Galego/ Castellano and obviously prefer Galician names but I like Finisterre too. There are strange cases like Cabanas/ Cabañas. The place is touristic with a good beach and many locals insist in calling it "Cabañas" when exists another one very famous called Copacabana.I like Finisterre because it says "end of the world" more obviously to me than Fisterra. But that is a personal preference in this specific instance and not an indication more broadly of a preference between Galician and Castellano spellings.
Estella (town in Navarra) versus Estrella (beer) - I always have to catch myself on this one
Jo, the Spanish pronunciation of “Cho” would be pretty close to the English pronunciation of Jo.I asked the taxi driver in Sarria to tell me how to say the name. Where is the accent. She pronounced it like Sorry-ya, not Sa-Rye-ya.
Have little idea how to pronounce French, so Roncesvalles is still a mystery to me. Raunches-Val? Raunches-valley? What is it?
Took me a while to realize Castrojeriz was one word, not 2.
The name I use is Jo. How should I tell Spanish speakers my name? I don't want to be called Ho.
Nothing could be finerEstella (town in Navarra) versus Estrella (beer) - I always have to catch myself on this one
I encountered the same thing on the Madrid Way several weeks ago. I was surprised to find out the "h" is silent when a local had no idea what I'd said when I told them I was ending in Sahagun.Speaking of pronunciation mess ups: We started our camino year before last in Sahagun, so I was trying to buy train tickets in Madrid to get to Sahagun. I knew better, since I've studied Spanish many years, but when I asked for tickets to Sahagun, I pronounced the "h". The man tried to find it in his computer but told me there was no such town. I knew there was a train that went there so I was amazed he didn't have it in his system. Finally, after quite a while, somehow, I can't remember how, we figured out I was asking for "Sa-a-gun" (silent h) and he knew exactly where that was.
On the Via Podiensis I was surprised to find out that "gite" is really pronounced "jeet".
The "h" is always silent in Spanish except when combined with C as in "ch". There may be other exceptions that I don't know about.I encountered the same thing on the Madrid Way several weeks ago. I was surprised to find out the "h" is silent
I would use "zh" as wellI thought it was zheet …
(for want of a better way of writing that ’g’ sound in French - afraid I am ignorant of the phonetic alphabet)
I think one is about as good as the other, imo. So close you can barely tell a difference, unless you pause too long between the z and h, but I don't like to strain at gnats (silent g).I thought it was zheet …
The "h" is silent in Chrissy...didn't know it was Spanish.The "h" is always silent in Spanish except when combined with C as in "ch".
But in Chrissy as you spell it with an "h" it would be pronounced with a CH sound as in cherry.The "h" is silent in Chrissy...didn't know it was Spanish.
In English it is always pronounced Crissy as my mother intended it to be. Spanish doesn't apply.But in Chrissy as you spell it with an "h" it would be pronounced with a CH sound as in cherry.
And ch used to be a separate single letter so the h wasn't treated as an h there anyway (ll and rr were treated as single letters also). This was to make it difficult for me to use a Spanish dictionary.The "h" is always silent in Spanish except when combined with C as in "ch".
I am a Scottish speaker of English who lives in Wales. Neither holds any terrors for meThe ‘ll’ sound in Welsh is next to impossible for most English speakers, as is the ‘ch’ sound.
That ‘ch’ is found in several European languages.
And ch used to be a separate single letter so the h wasn't treated as an h there anyway (ll and rr were treated as single letters also). This was to make it difficult for me to use a Spanish dictionary.
I am a Scottish speaker of English who lives in Wales. Neither holds any terrors for me
Surely you meant EidelweisBut you're used to it
My favourite is to see people trying to pronounce Eglwyswrw
(easy once you know what to do with the Welsh ‘w’)
That's what I meant. I took the use of double letters as single letters personally.For a moment there, I read that to mean that it was done to make it difficult for you to use one!
That's what I meant. I took the use of double letters as single letters personally.
And herberg in Dutch. But all of them beat sleeping in a hostile.ALBERGUE, not albUrgue, not albUrgE, not albUErgue, not albergE, not aUbergue, not alberQue.
Auberge is the correct spelling in French, so I won’t count that as a misspelling.
Especially a hostile hostel!And herberg in Dutch. But all of them beat sleeping in a hostile.
When it is pronounced in Spanish, it sounds like /j/ (la jota). Mostly in foreign-origin words like hamster >> /j/amster ; or as the Spanish /g/ before -ue- ex. huevos >> /g/uevos.The "h" is always silent in Spanish
Chrissy, dear Chrissy, chapeau! Me too. Who cares? Of course, it CAN be fun, but if it is at the expense of someone else, it is not at all allowable.You people are all going down rabbit holes...I'm done.
Yes, many people in Spain say " guevos" but normative is "huevos" with h soundless. In Galicia most people say " guevos" when speaking Galego ( normative "ovos"). The places in Galicia with "gheada" say "juevos".When it is pronounced in Spanish, it sounds like /j/ (la jota). Mostly in foreign-origin words like hamster >> /j/amster ; or as the Spanish /g/ before -ue- ex. huevos >> /g/uevos.
In Galicia there are places with " gheada", one of those is Costa da Morte. They say " jato" ( gato), justoume ( gustoume) and "Juevos" but not for the h in huevos, for the g in "guevos". It is funny.Yes, many people in Spain say " guevos" but normative is "huevos" with h soundless. In Galicia most people say " guevos" when speaking Galego ( normative "ovos"). The places in Galicia with "gheada" say "juevos".
Even in the supposed "soundless" pronunciation, it tends to be /w/evos rather than what the pure diphthong -ue- should sound like.normative is "huevos" with h soundless
When it is pronounced in Spanish
For as long as my post might last, here is another peeve, more about grammar than spelling.Mods and longtime regular forum members have surely noticed the way some common words are frequently misspelled. Though it’s not a big deal, it does mess with the search function. If you look for trains going to Pondeferra or Bilboa, you’re not going to find any!
This thread is intended to be a lighthearted (but maybe school-marmish ) effort to clean up some of our most frequent faux pas. I’ll start.
ALBERGUE, not albUrgue, not albUrgE, not albUErgue, not albergE, not aUbergue, not alberQue.
Auberge is the correct spelling in French, so I won’t count that as a misspelling.
What are your favorites?
Mods and longtime regular forum members have surely noticed the way some common words are frequently misspelled. Though it’s not a big deal, it does mess with the search function. If you look for trains going to Pondeferra or Bilboa, you’re not going to find any!
This thread is intended to be a lighthearted (but maybe school-marmish ) effort to clean up some of our most frequent faux pas. I’ll start.
ALBERGUE, not albUrgue, not albUrgE, not albUErgue, not albergE, not aUbergue, not alberQue.
Auberge is the correct spelling in French, so I won’t count that as a misspelling.
What are your favorites?
I'm far more inclusive than you - it rubs me up the wrong way no matter who is responsible. As someone who has very little difficulty personally with spelling or punctuation in English I find it hard to understand why others cannot see the glaring errors which leap out at me from the page and cause me an almost-physical discomfort. Isn't it more time-consuming and demanding to invent your own spelling each time than to use the standard versions? A pedantic trait which caused me to use an above-average number of red pens in my time as a trainee school teacher...Bad apostrophising only really annoys me when the English or Americans do it.
I'm far more inclusive than you - it rubs me up the wrong way no matter who is responsible. As someone who has very little difficulty personally with spelling or punctuation in English I find it hard to understand why others cannot see the glaring errorswhichthat leap out at me from the page and cause me an almost-physical discomfort. Isn't it more time-consuming and demanding to invent your own spelling each time than to use the standard versions? A pedantic trait which caused me to use an above-average number of red pens in my time as a trainee school teacher...
Obviously the apostrophe is because they are sharing the camp's phone number and email address. Since they belong to the camp, the possessive apostrophe is used.@Kirkie Those errant apostrophes have found their way to France. I saw this between Bayonne and St-Jean-de-Luz
View attachment 160334
Are you sure, sir? If so, I bow to your superior knowledge.Obviously the apostrophe is because they are sharing the camp's phone number and email address. Since they belong to the camp, the possessive apostrophe is used.
Hmmm, maybe Google doesn't know everything after all, or possibly it is Irish.If I google Galician restaurants wth O' something similar to O' Cebreiro, still lot of them.
It's the only good reason I can come up with for the apostrophe. Surely they wouldn't be using it incorrectly.Are you sure, sir? If so, I bow to your superior knowledge.
That sign is obviously not addressing English speakers but French and Spanish speakers.Those errant apostrophes have found their way to France. I saw this between Bayonne and St-Jean-de-Luz
I can't speak to bun's but ado's for adolescents is not entirely without merit. The apostrophe (at least in English) originated as a mark that indicated an abbreviation of sorts, where letters (or numbers) are omitted. Hence, '90s for 1990s (century numbers omitted, isn't for is not (o is omitted), etc. The possessive apostrophe originally marked an omitted e. In this case, "lescent" has been omitted.ado's for adolescents
Except that in French, it's not a ' that is used as a marker of some abbreviation, but a ^ .I can't speak to bun's but ado's for adolescents is not entirely without merit. The apostrophe (at least in English) originated as a mark that indicated an abbreviation of sorts, where letters (or numbers) are omitted. Hence, '90s for 1990s (century numbers omitted, isn't for is not (o is omitted), etc. The possessive apostrophe originally marked an omitted e. In this case, "lescent" has been omitted.
I was amused to read today that “the apostrophe […] was introduced into English in the 16th century in imitation of French practice.”The apostrophe (at least in English) originated as a mark that indicated an abbreviation of sorts, where letters (or numbers) are omitted.
I listen to quite a few British podcasts, and different to seems quite common, but is a bit of an assault on my American ears.Different from as opposed to different to
I’ve been known to shout at the TV when I hear the latter.
Yes, I'm guilty of that!Don’t some from US say “different than”?
I was amused to read today that “the apostrophe […] was introduced into English in the 16th century in imitation of French practice.”
True?
I think that from Wilhelm the Conqueror, England had taken everything from France (except bobbys, lamb with mint sauce, Stones and Beatles).I was amused to read today that “the apostrophe […] was introduced into English in the 16th century in imitation of French practice.”
True?
I think that from Wilhelm the Conqueror, England had taken everything from France (except bobbys, lamb with mint sauce, Stones and Beatles).
I saw it on Wikipedia but I did not accept it as fact without any further checksFrom where did you quote this?
I had remembered that it was an invention of some Italian printers, and whilst the innovation spread from there into France and England especially, and the French printers (and their Dutch catspaws for the evasion of censorship) did introduce several innovations still used today ; nevertheless the major effort towards standardisation from these Continental origins came from the 18th Century English invention of the weekly newspaper and the need that it created for predictable, common forms, easily interpretable by all readers ; in lieu of the previous quite variable written (and printed) forms, even within the same language.Quote: "[The apostrophe] was imported from the Continent in the 16th century. During the 19th century its use was standardised. However the rules of its usage still seem problematic to many, including literate speakers of English."
The article includes more details about the historical development of the usage of the apostrophe mark in English and also in some other European languages.
That's true for sure ... of some. Though, it can sometimes be difficult to know on this forum. Thank heavens for emojis. Or is it 'emojii'!I think some of us were just playing
Yes, but this was the smiley in the pre-emoji days.I still call them smilies
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