standard of living/quality of life in Spain

[Bob008]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

 

[KiwiJohn]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Perhaps a socially advanced nation, whose politicians are bi-partisan and try to provide for all of the population! ??

 

[J Willhaus]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Don't know where you are from, but QOL from region to region in Spain and US regions vary widely in both. Communities on the various Caminos may benefit from pilgrim spending.

 

[C clearly]

On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain

Only if you measure standard of living by the GNP. Therein maybe lies the flaw. There are other indicators such as Quality of Life that might better reflect what you are talking about when you say "it certainly does not feel that way."

 

[Bob008]

Don't know where you are from, but QOL from region to region in Spain and US regions vary widely in both. Communities on the various Caminos may benefit from pilgrim spending.

I get your point. The suburbs of Washington DC are thriving while some towns along the PA turnpike are decaying and downright depressing whenever I drive through them. However, considering the high cost of housing, crimes, high cost of health care, lack of public transportation system, etc., it seems the standard of living in a medium size city in Spain, Santiago for example, is indeed better than even some very prosperous suburbs in the US, which contradicts the GNP per capita data. It's just my impression after spending only 1-2 weeks in Spain, so I could be completely wrong on this.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I get your point. The suburbs of Washington DC are thriving while some towns along the PA turnpike are decaying and downright depressing whenever I drive through them. However, considering the high cost of housing, crimes, high cost of health care, lack of public transportation system, etc., it seems the standard of living in a medium size city in Spain, Santiago for example, is indeed better than even some very prosperous suburbs in the US, which contradicts the GNP per capita data. It's just my impression after spending only 1-2 weeks in Spain, so I could be completely wrong on this.

I am from Europe so loathe to get involved!!! I guess for Spain read many other European countries. I guess healthcare and public transport underpin much of what we do. Huge generalisation given we are 50 countries.

Most interested though is asking were you surprised by what you saw in Spain. What were your preconceptions. Don’t worry I am not signing up for the old stereotype about folks from USA being unaware of anything outside their country. I know that to be nonsense but just curious.

I can imagine the train system, safety, healthcare, and the costs of living being ‘standout’?

 

[Bob008]

I am from Europe so loathe to get involved!!! I guess for Spain read many other European countries. I guess healthcare and public transport underpin much of what we do. Huge generalisation given we are 50 countries.

Most interested though is asking were you surprised by what you saw in Spain. What were your preconceptions. Don’t worry I am not signing up for the old stereotype about folks from USA being unaware of anything outside their country. I know that to be nonsense but just curious.

I can imagine the train system, safety, healthcare, and the costs of living being ‘standout’?

To be honest, I thought the GNP data would be a decent indicator of the country. Even within the US, I notice the difference in infrastructure between high-income states and low-income states. Since the GNP per capita of the US is about twice that of Spain, I thought Spain would be somewhat less prosperous than the US, which I found to be completely not the case. Public system is much better. Cities are safer. The costs of living, as far as I can tell as a tourist, are lower. Don't have first-hand experience with health-care in Spain, but I heard it is affordable unlike the US. So needless to say, my impression of Spain is quite good except for food (but that's a different issue).

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Having lived in Spain for 8 months last year, I think it's much more than just income. What I see in a lot of Spain is an inclusive culture, not dominated by income and expenditure, but by family and community. So, in the small town where I lived, if the weather was good everyone was out in the square, some at cafes, but many more just sitting on benches enjoying the company. No-one was excluded because they couldn't afford, or didn't want, to buy anything.
While the overall average income is lower than the US, I think the gap between rich and poor is smaller, which generally makes for a happier, more equal society.

 

[henrythedog]

I lived in Barcelona for a year back in the 90’s, visit Spain often - on and off the tourist track - and have longstanding Spanish friends. I speak fairly good Spanish, although my Catalan is rusty.

It’s a mixed bag. Lots of local and regional autonomy, as in the US; but basically good public services. Bureaucracy is rife however.

There are plenty of areas in towns and cities and especially rural areas which are deprived. Youth and long-term unemployment are significant issues and there is considerable wealth inequality.

Having said that, had the UK not exited the EU, my last house move would have been to Andalucía.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Having lived in Spain for 8 months last year, I think it's much more than just income. What I see in a lot of Spain is an inclusive culture, not dominated by income and expenditure, but by family and community. So, in the small town where I lived, if the weather was good everyone was out in the square, some at cafes, but many more just sitting on benches enjoying the company. No-one was excluded because they couldn't afford, or didn't want, to buy anything.
While the overall average income is lower than the US, I think the gap between rich and poor is smaller, which generally makes for a happier, more equal society.

100% agree with that! Also spend lots of time in Spain and the enjoyment of just being out sitting in the street with friends for company is huge. Italy to!

One story. I recently spent an extended period in Cordoba just by a housing estate. We went to the same place for breakfast every morning. It was packed - 50 people. Pretty much every one was over 70, and also nearly all female. Most were there for up to 2 hrs on a couple of coffee and also some nice breads. Chat chat chat, laugh laugh laugh. €5 cost.

After that would head off to the local supermarket and in the evening there they were again in local squares. No real costs to any of this. Buses are numerous, trains are readily available, healthcare is around, the streets are packed with people.

 

[Pafayac]

In most European countries, social policy reduces the standard deviation of incomes. Poors are less poors than in US, and rich people are less rich.
However do not rely upon only your first impression: being a countryman in Estremadura or a worker in Granada is not the same than being a white collar in Barcelona or Bilbao...

 

[davejsy]

Spain is a beautiful country, but not all parts are equal. There are very rich parts and very poor parts, and even parts that want to become independent. The politics and police can still be corrupt, especially at a local level. Unemployment is over 30% in some areas.

But it is the only other place in the world I would want to live.

What I see in a lot of Spain is an inclusive culture, not dominated by income and expenditure, but by family and community.

@Molly Cassidy sums up very well one of the most important things for me of what makes Spain so different to many other western countries though, and the politics and polices revolve very much around this. You only have to go in to the town or village square late in the evening to see this. As mentioned food and drink is generally very reasonable which facilitates this kind of community. Older people tend to remain with their families, or looked after by their communities as opposed to shipped off to nursing homes.

 

[Pelegrin]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

In Spain GNP per capita varies from €22.000 ( Extremadura) to € 36.000 ( Country Basque). Galicia € 26.000.
Not bad. Most countries in East Europe have less and neighbour Morroco €3500.

 

[Sirage]

Quality of Life

... is probably a useful place to start, and then think about about why?

There is the distribution of gross measures (eg GNP) between people - ie equality. The Gini coefficient is a common measure. Then there are other measures such as the Big Mac index and the Starbucks index. And then my head spins, perhaps because all the economists' heads are spinning whilst still looking for a useful but still elusive guide to answer your question.

One thought is that the form of socialism (??) guiding Spanish society (and vaguely across a lot of the EU ) provides better value to most people ""you see"" in Spain, whilst the guiding processes at play in the USA is rugged individualism for the bulk of US citizens and socialism for the rich (a quote I borrowed as it appeals to me) resulting in the bulk of US citizens struggling economically because rugged individualism does not appear to enhance most peoples lives.

 

[CWBuff]

re:Hospitalization costs. I walked into ER in Burgos. Upon being asked if I have the EU insurance and replying "no" I was informed that I would have to pay the bill myself on the spot.
And I did... all €150 of it.
Back home I now pay close to $200/month fir the (ahem) privilege of having medical insurance (actually I have no choice in the matter as I am required by FEDERAL (!) law to have it). A trip to ER will cost me $300 deductible then some $$$ more for copay, more fir coinsurance (I've given up long time ago to try and figure out what these things are fid I must pay them regardless) and then after writing off perhaps 50% of the bill the insurance company will pay maybe 20% of remainder with leaving the balance to me since "I have not yet met my annual deductible amount". Tryst me for those who don't know- this could wind up being in $thousands very fast...
When I walked the Camino many European pilgrims were asking me if it's true that we can buy couple of houses and\or cars through our lives. I said, yes (currently I am on my 5th house.. uprising and now downsizing as life demands and maybe my 15th car with my wife also having one as well). However I also explained that the cars are not luxury but necessity: fir a very long time both if us worked at jobs where the commute was close to 45mins driving each way (forget about public transportation as it would take you physically all over God's Creation with 3-4 changes and 3.5-4 hours time wise!!!). As far as the houses go well there us mortgage and so you wind up working long and crazy hours to pay the bills...and your typical day is get up, eat something, get to work, work, come home, eat something, maybe chill fir couple of hours and go to sleep ...
In a sense we fall victims of that "perceived luxury" but see little enjoyment from life. Go out every evening to a bar or café at 10:00pm? Yeah, right!!!
There are more of my observations but I'll stop here. As usual these are my personal opinions nothing more and no offense meant to anyone

P.S. I am sure that I am not the only one who HATES the stupid Spell-check which decides upon itself that it knows better what it is one wants to type...and lots of times comes up with totally gibberish non existing words...(see some above)

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

As @C clearly alludes to, Standard of living versus Quality of life are two very different things.

Personally I feel that the GNP data is really only a good indicator within the country concerned, where you can compare like with like ( or one region to another).

For example according to the site 'Numbeo', for a family to be able to afford a good standard of living ( a nice house or apartment, being able to go out for dinner several times a month etc in Santiago and Madrid: To have a similar stand of living you need just 2770 euros in Santiago versus 4,100 in Madrid. (The CPI including rent is 32% lower in Santiago)

According to housinganywhere.com, "on average, the cost of living in Spain is 123% cheaper than in the USA. The biggest differences in cost are in rent, utilities, groceries, daycare, and health insurance."

What I see in a lot of Spain is an inclusive culture, not dominated by income and expenditure, but by family and community

I think this absolutely nails it.

Plus which serious crime rates are so, so much lower in Spain than the USA. I've seen several sites that claim that the murder rate in the USA is 10 times that of Spain, the statistics would appear to bear that out. You are significantly less likely to suffer any form of serious crime and the country is reportedly far safer in terms of discrimination (color, sexual orientation et al).

Add in the generally excellent public transport and the social welfare systems (for example good public health care) and you have a sizable chunk of the recipe for good quality of life.

Yes, there is still significant social disparity between the rich and the poor, from one region to another. But overall - hey, I really like many aspects of America, but overall I would far rather live in Spain.

 

[Jan Jones]

Sorry, it’s late and I haven’t read all the previous replies so this has probably been said already - but I will sleep better if I post this now .
I am a sociologist and I love it when people think about the questions you raise and when people recognise that numbers are useful in helping to explain part of our social experience.
If you Google: gini coefficient, income inequality, private public healthcare expenditure, etc etc as comparisons by nation it will help to set you off into the beginning of some answers. Political economy is the place to get the more profound answers.

 

[Gringazolana]

I fell in love with Spain and Spanish culture for all the reasons y’all mention above. I’m from the US but have traveled and lived in several Latin American countries. I guess I was expecting Spain to be similar, but was surprised at how different I found it. I felt much safer in Spain! My son likes to say that Spain has all the charm of Venezuela and none of the violent crime.

 

[Bradypus]

I guess I was expecting Spain to be similar, but was surprised at how different I found it. I felt much safer in Spain!

Some time back a thread became quite heated when someone asked which she should bring for personal protection while on the Camino - Mace, a knife or a gun? I think that question said a great deal more about her situation at home than the situation on the Camino.

 

[TravellingMan22]

By w

As @C clearly alludes to, Standard of living versus Quality of life are two very different things.

Personally I feel that the GNP data is really only a good indicator within the country concerned, where you can compare like with like ( or one region to another).

For example according to the site 'Numbeo', for a family to be able to afford a good standard of living ( a nice house or apartment, being able to go out for dinner several times a month etc in Santiago and Madrid: To have a similar stand of living you need just 2770 euros in Santiago versus 4,100 in Madrid. (The CPI including rent is 32% lower in Santiago)

According to housinganywhere.com, on average, the cost of living in Spain is 123% cheaper than in the USA. The biggest differences in cost are in rent, utilities, groceries, daycare, and health insurance.


I think this absolutely nails it.

Plus which serious crime rates are so, so much lower in Spain than the USA. I've seen several sites that claim that the murder rate in the USA is 10 times that of Spain, the statistics would appear to bear that out. You are significantly less likely to suffer any form of serious crime and the country is reportedly far safer in terms of discrimination (color, sexual orientation et al).

Add in the generally excellent public transport and the social welfare systems (for example good public health care) and you have a sizable chunk of the recipe for good quality of life.

Yes, there is still significant social disparity between the rich and the poor, from one region to another. But overall - hey, I really like many aspects of America, but overall I would far rather live in Spain.

i guess the strongest advocacy I can give of Spain….

I am currently looking for somewhere to live and settle. I have been nomadic for 4 years and maybe will be for another 2 years but it can’t go on forever.

I have about 10 key criteria of varying importance and Spain ticks everyone and ‘wins’ by a good margin. Only really thinking Europe tho South East Asia was also a consideration. Croatia, Italy and Portugal score well too but Spain ticks all the boxes.

Weather, affordable housing, healthcare and public transport are the ‘big four’ I guess.

A sense of community, a strong football culture, places for breakfast that open early, places for drinking that close late, lots of visiting music bands, contactless and card using culture, close to UK and a few others.

 

[CWBuff]

On a recent trip to USA, having problems sleeping, I was struck by the TV adverts all seem to revolve around Pharma, religion and lawyers!

really - religion? WOW! I honestly do not recall any time (simple "holiday greetings"-type ones not counting) when a religious ad was on TV. Interesting.....

Plus which serious crime rates are so, so much lower in Spain than the USA. I've seen several sites that claim that the murder rate in the USA is 10 times that of Spain, the statistics would appear to bear that out. You are significantly less likely to suffer any form of serious crime and the country is reportedly far safer in terms of discrimination (color, sexual orientation et al).

While I absolutely do not disagree about the crime-related rate, IMHO in the context of what we are talking to me its immaterial. Thankfully I live in a relatively safe suburb of a major US city (which is not to say that something cannot occur even in my neck-of-the-woods). But everything around me is a combo of residential properties, some 1/2-empty shopping mall and a number of so-shopping strips (just a small number of various stores with applicable parking lot). There are no restaurants I can walk to (I mean by Camino standards of course - the closest one may only be 1-2 km away, but thats far cry from walking out your door and walk 2 blocks), there are no parks, squares, plazas - public places to congregate! Most of it - there are no walking sideways as well. So short of me getting into my car (again) and driving myself someplace - there is NADA! If i lived in the city proper I can also guarantee you that short of living in the immediate Center City area - its the same (and NOW you can add that 'safety issue' in some neighborhoods) I it just not simply 'the same'. Its not even Mars vs Venus its more like Venus vs Planet Iscandar (1000 Pilgrim points to Gryffindor if anyone remembers where this comes from )

And its a shame, in so many different ways.

 

[TravellingMan22]

really - religion? WOW! I honestly do not recall any time (simple "holiday greetings"-type ones not counting) when a religious ad was on TV. Interesting.....



While I absolutely do not disagree about the crime-related rate, IMHO in the context of what we are talking to me its immaterial. Thankfully I live in a relatively safe suburb of a major US city (which is not to say that something cannot occur even in my neck-of-the-woods). But everything around me is a combo of residential properties, some 1/2-empty shopping mall and a number of so-shopping strips (just a small number of various stores with applicable parking lot). There are no restaurants I can walk to (I mean by Camino standards of course - the closest one may only be 1-2 km away, but thats far cry from walking out your door and walk 2 blocks), there are no parks, squares, plazas - public places to congregate! Most of it - there are no walking sideways as well. So short of me getting into my car (again) and driving myself someplace - there is NADA! If i lived in the city proper I can also guarantee you that short of living in the immediate Center City area - its the same (and NOW you can add that 'safety issue' in some neighborhoods) I it just not simply 'the same'. Its not even Mars vs Venus its more like Venus vs Planet Iscandar (1000 Pilgrim points to Gryffindor if anyone remembers where this comes from )

And its a shame, in so many different ways.

Yes saw plenty on religion. Not prime time, but 3am sort of thing. Imagine it’s heavily regionalised. Might have been some off beat channel. I was in So Cal. Not saying NBC, ABC or CNN are running them!

 

[CWBuff]

I have about 10 key criteria of varying importance and Spain ticks everyone and ‘wins’ by a good margin. Only really thinking Europe tho South East Asia was also a consideration. Croatia, Italy and Portugal score well too but Spain ticks all the boxes.

Weather, affordable housing, healthcare and public transport are the ‘big four’ I guess.

A sense of community, a strong football culture, places for breakfast that open early, places for drinking that close late, lots of visiting music bands, contactless and card using culture, close to UK and a few others.

Ole Ole Ole Ole!

While I do come from Europe originally, my wife is US born and bred. And while we both continue Oohh and Ahhh on so many things European when we are in Europe, she will not-nevah relocate!
No reasoning that the kids and grandchildren will have a beautiful place to go to when going on vacation resplendent with Platja de la Barceloneta or Plage de la Gravette seems to move her!

 

[Bob P]

I wondered the same before and looked at stats as well.
At that time, it showed 28% unemployment and median income of 24,000 euro annual, so it's NOT about the money.
Then, at home I paid more attention to people. I looked around inside my stores and restaurants. I watched people interacting at events. I watched people at public gatherings.
Focus on those things and you will see the difference between US and Spain.

 

[Pelegrin]

What I like the most about Spain ( my country) is how easy it is eating healthy food (vegetables and fish) with menu del dia. Recently I visited Berlin and it was really different. I don' t mean it was bad food but not mine.

 

[TravellingMan22]

What I like the most about Spain ( my country) is how easy it is eating healthy food (vegetables and fish) with menu del dia. Recently I visited Berlin and it was really different. I don' t mean it was bad food but not mine.

Indeed I love Germany but eating well as a tourist is tough. For Germany read many Central and Western European countries. Italy, Portugal are decent but Spain excels.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Let's say an American buys a large expensive pickup truck on credit and then has to buy lots of gas and pay high insurance premiums. And then the truck crashes into a small car causing severe injuries to its occupants and high medical costs. All this is good for the country's GNP but doesn't do so much for its standard of living or quality of life.

 

[LTfit]

In most European countries, social policy reduces the standard deviation of incomes. Poors are less poors than in US, and rich people are less rich.
However do not rely upon only your first impression: being a countryman in Estremadura or a worker in Granada is not the same than being a white collar in Barcelona or Bilbao...

True. I've been living in The Netherlands for the past 30 years and have also lived in Paris, Geneva and Luxembourg so half of my life I've lived in Europe and the first half in the U.S.

Work/life balance I have found to be much more healthy in Europe. One's health care and education do not depend on having money or connections, it is a right. Period.

 

[J Willhaus]

We have day dreamed about living in a small town in Spain a lot. Don't know if we'd really enjoy it or not, but we do love temporarily "living" in a village and volunteering at their albergue for at least a couple of weeks each year.

No desire to move to or live in a city though.

 

[Joan O.]

Molly Cassidy (posting above) hit a nail on the head!

I lived 5 years in the USA. Left. The bottom line there was, and still is, the mighty dollar.

Why (above a certain threshold of course ) would one expect increasing GDP to linearly reflect increasing quality of life? How much ´stuff’ is enough to make a society happy?!?
More likely there is also another threshold -increases above which result in ruin for a society?

I spend a lot of time in Spain ( have experience of the medical system both there and in the States ) and am considering Spain for my next move.
The bottom line there is family/community and living a good life.

Note: Perhaps most telling of all is the fact that in Spain ‘socialism’ is NOT a dirty word .

 

[WayWalker]

Yes saw plenty on religion. Not prime time, but 3am sort of thing. Imagine it’s heavily regionalised. Might have been some off beat channel. I was in So Cal. Not saying NBC, ABC or CNN are running them!

I live in Colorado. Plenty of pharma commercials and injury lawyer commercials but no religion. in love with my mute button.

 

[Pelegrin]

Note: Perhaps most telling of all is the fact that in Spain ‘socialism’ is NOT a dirty word .

It is not a dirty word for more or less half of the population. People are now really divided on this issue in Spain.

 

[CalgaryLynn]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

I think you have to take into account too, the high end of a median income in the US.....there are many, many, many really wealthy people and that would skew the median up whereas in Spain there probably isn't the same numbers of wealthy people......take the average income of the 1% in the US and take that out of the equation, I would bet the average income would be significantly lower. Median income really doesn't give a clear picture.

 

[C clearly]

123% cheaper than

How does this compute?

 

[TravellingMan22]

I think you have to take into account too, the high end of a median income in the US.....there are many, many, many really wealthy people and that would skew the median up whereas in Spain there probably isn't the same numbers of wealthy people......take the average income of the 1% in the US and take that out of the equation, I would bet the average income would be significantly lower. Median income really doesn't give a clear picture.

Not so sure! I take the point but am sure the folks who produce the numbers would need to smooth them and take out folks at highest and lower end of earning scales otherwise they would not be credible!

 

[CWBuff]

I think you have to take into account too, the high end of a median income in the US.....there are many, many, many really wealthy people and that would skew the median up whereas in Spain there probably isn't the same numbers of wealthy people......take the average income of the 1% in the US and take that out of the equation, I would bet the average income would be significantly lower. Median income really doesn't give a clear picture.

With all my complaining above I'm sorry to state that the much spoken of 1% is a myth.
In addition re:many many many wealthy people... I always maintained that no matter were one stands in the wealth configuration- chances are pretty darn good that there us nearly always someone poorer. Your possessions (meager as they may be) are someone else's dream.
To quite a number of folks I am "wealthy" but somehow it just does not feel this way.

 

[Trekker One]

The US recently sent 100 billion in military aid between Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan rather than spending it on there own infrastructure at home or it's own citizens. They do this quite often.
Most US cities look old, tired and stuffed with homeless people.
Priorities.

 

[TravellingMan22]

How does this compute?

I will let Peter answer but the numbers and methodologies vary widely on this sort of thing. How you weight the poorest part of Germany (east) and its population versus say the wealthier part of USA example, how you deal with incomes etc. generally many studies claim the ‘gap’ around 35%.

As a recent tourist to the USA the costs seem off the scale. Even a burger for two at Denny’s was $50. I am glad I took my children to Disney 25 years ago!

That’s obv a tourist view rather than a ‘living there’ view which I guess is more pertinent here.

 

[WalkinRon]

My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc.

@Bob008 I noticed this too... I wondered if it was just that the Camino Frances was taking me through the nicer parts of Spain. I can't wait to go back to experience more of the country and its people!

 

[Jarrad]

@CalgaryLynn, I think you mean average income does not give a clear picture. The median addresses the issue describe around the "1%" fairly well because of the concentration of wealth among a few. Also, overall affluence in the US is quite good, with over 30 percent of households earning over $100k per year. While wealth overall is concentrated among 1% of Americans, that wealth does not necessarily reduce the affluence of other US citizens. That said, some economists (not all) point to rising wealth inequality as a a threat to social stability. Similarly, the US does not see much in the way of emigration (i.e., leaving the US) as a result of lack of opportunity (jobs) or wealth.

As others have already said in so many words, affluence does not equal quality of life.

 

[C clearly]

cost of living in Spain is 123% cheaper than in the USA.

I will let Peter answer but the numbers and methodologies vary widely on this sort of thing.

My question is simply about the arithmetic. If the cost is $1000 , how much is "123% cheaper"?

 

[TravellingMan22]

My question is simply about the arithmetic. If the cost is $1000 , how much is "123% cheaper"?

Sorry you’ve lost me! I will leave it to Peter.!

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

My question is simply about the arithmetic. If the cost is $1000 , how much is "123% cheaper"?

Well, as as I said that was a direct quote.

As @TravellingMan22 said, methodologies vary widely.

It's actually easier to demonstrate in reverse: if something costs €100 in Spain, but €223 in the USA, you could say it's 123% cheaper in Spain.

Why they word it that way rather than saying it's 123% more expensive in the USA than in Spain (which to my mind seems more accurate) I do not know.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Well, as as I said that was a direct quote.

As @TravellingMan22 said, methodologies vary widely.

It's actually easier to demonstrate in reverse: if something costs €100 in Spain, but €223 in the USA, you could say it's 123% cheaper in Spain.
Why they word it that way rather than saying it's 123% more expensive in the USA than in Spain (which to my mind seems more accurate) I do not know.

Sorry! I got lost! I couldn’t see where you quoted $1000!

 

[C clearly]

Why they word it that way... I do not know.

It completely lacks mathematical logic, suggesting that the person saying it really does not know what it might mean. Does 100% cheaper mean something is free? Then how about 123% cheaper?

I found some discussion on this site:
"The phrasing is a logical impossibility, where the reader has to guess the intent of the author - of which there are several interpretations. The key here is that this is a language "thing" only and certainly not a construct of logic or math."

I got lost! I couldn’t see where you quoted 1000!

I just used it as an example for doing the calculation - i.e. what is 125% less than any number?

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

quite a number of folks I am "wealthy" but somehow it just does not feel this way.

I know exactly what you mean.

Many years ago I was traveling in Africa. I was in Zaire, at a time when tourists were practically unheard of. Myself and a few companions were camping in the gardens of a ruined Belgian house. I spent the evening talking to a charming young man from a local Village who really wanted to practice his English.

His dream was to go to university. It would cost around 300 US dollars a year, his family income was $500 PA. I literally had that money in my money belt around my waist at the time. My entire trip cost me four times that - and yet compared to my friends back home (many of whom were already homeowners) I was poor. I owned nothing but my rucksack and it's contents; my bank account stood at about £3,000. To him, I must have been practically a millionaire.

Perspective

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

It completely lacks mathematical logic, suggesting that the person saying it really does not know what it might mean. Does 100% cheaper mean something is free? Then how about 123% cheaper?

I found some discussion on this site:
"The phrasing is a logical impossibility, where the reader has to guess the intent of the author - of which there are several interpretations. The key here is that this is a language "thing" only and certainly not a construct of logic or math."


I just used it as an example for doing the calculation - i.e. what is 125% less than any number?

I agree completely, however as I said that sentence is a direct quote - please don't shoot the messenger!

 

[J Willhaus]

I heard a speaker once discuss his upbringing as a child on a dairy farm in an Oklahoma summer.

He said "We didn't even know that we were hot until we visited a friend who had air conditioning."
Prior he had nothing with which to compare his circumstances.

Is the grass greener in Spain? I'd like to find out although every place has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

[TravellingMan22]

It completely lacks mathematical logic, suggesting that the person saying it really does not know what it might mean. Does 100% cheaper mean something is free? Then how about 123% cheaper?

I found some discussion on this site:
"The phrasing is a logical impossibility, where the reader has to guess the intent of the author - of which there are several interpretations. The key here is that this is a language "thing" only and certainly not a construct of logic or math."


I just used it as an example for doing the calculation - i.e. what is 125% less than any number?

Ah ok sorry! Just divided the number by 2.23 to get 123% cheaper but it’s a long time since I went to school and clumsily put!

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

The US recently sent 100 billion in military aid between Ukraine, Israel and Tiawan rather than spending it on infrastructure at home or it's citizens. They do this quite often.
Most US cities look old, tired and stuffed with homeless people.
Priorities.

the most truthful comment on this thread....

 

[Bradypus]

Perspective

Indeed. In India way back in 1989 I was talking with a local church worker. We were comparing average incomes and prices with the UK. When I mentioned approximately what a typical UK wage would be in rupees the man was stunned at the level of wealth. But when I mentioned the cost of ordinary food items he was equally shocked and asked how many people were starving because of those prices.

 

[davejsy]

It's actually easier to demonstrate in reverse: if something costs €100 in Spain, but €223 in the USA, you could say it's 123% cheaper in Spain.

That would actually be 55% cheaper - I think something has got lost in translation!

Edit - the % is based on the higher number hence why it can be over 100% in other circumstances, ie. a pint of beer is 300% cheaper in Spain than France etc (2 euro v 8 euro).

 

[C clearly]

please don't shoot the messenger!

No shooting! Just a minor pet peeve of mine, more directed at the original reporting of the information.

 

[dougfitz]

It's actually easier to demonstrate in reverse: if something costs €100 in Spain, but €223 in the USA, you could say it's 123% cheaper in Spain.

Really!!! Do the arithmetic. The difference is 123 Euro, which makes the 100 euro 55% cheaper than the US price. It is the simplest mathematics. Anyone who suggests that something is 100% or more less than something else clearly does not understand basic arithmetic.

Edit: and the suggestion that something can be 300% cheaper is equally ridiculous. The 2 euro beer is 75% cheaper than an 8 euro beer, or the 8 euro beer is 400% dearer. There is no 300% anywhere in that calculation!!

 

[CWBuff]

As a recent tourist to the USA the costs seem off the scale. Even a burger for two at Denny’s was $50. I am glad I took my children to Disney 25 years ago!

LOL. In 2016 my wife and I were visiting London. Unbeknown to her I made a reservation at Darwin Brasserie - London’s highest rooftop brasserie overlooking the Thames on Level 36 of the famous "Walkie-Talkie" building. We had a wonderful time and, despite us being the tourists and Yanks to boot , the staff was super awesome and hearing that it was our 1st time gave us a corner table. We were looking at St.Paul's from one window and at The Shard from another! We knew well enough that the prices we'd pay were not for being in some 5-star Michelin place but rather "for experience" and were perfectly fine with it; and to be fair, the food was quite descent. In any case, we were joking that at $25.00 (once converted from GBP)ours were the most expensive burgers we ever ate! Here we are, mere 8 years later and, as you noted, substantial amount of burgers in many chain places back home. are just about that.

re: Disney (and I am sure there will be someone who can 'top' me). 1980; 6days/5nights in a hotel next to WDW (Florida that is), breakfast included, transportation to WDW Transportation Center included, unlimited transportation to magic Kingdom on any of Disney transportation (the monorail, ferries across the lake) included as well as to any other Disney property (Contemporary Hotel, Polynesian Village), 6 days unlimited entry to Magic Kingdom, Treasure Island (since defunct) and Discovery Cove (since defunct) - all for $133.00/pp. Today 1 child ticket for one day to only one park is over $120.00 (Yeah Im glad our children are pushing 40 and I dont have to take them to Disney anymore! AaMOF - I think I'm pretty much done taking myself to Disney "any more" )
OK just FYI - Magic Kingdom is the only park - they are just beginning to build EPCoT; still...

H... we ARE talking about "quality of life", n?

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Really!!! Do the arithmetic. The difference is 123 Euro, which makes the 100 euro 55% cheaper than the US price. It is the simplest mathematics. Anyone who suggests that something is 100% or more less than something else clearly does not understand basic arithmetic.

Oh dear not you as well ! I've already said I agree completely and that it's a direct quote. Something being 123% cheaper is clearly not mathematically possible, why they chose to use that terminology/ phrasing is completely beyond me. Clearly what they should have said is that the USA is 123% more expensive than Spain however they did not, and I was quoting.

As per @davejsy ,: "Edit - the % is based on the higher number hence why it can be over 100% in other circumstances, ie. a pint of beer is 300% cheaper in Spain than France etc (2 euro v 8 euro)."

 

[CWBuff]

I'm with @C clearly - I think I will aspire to set a goal to walk my next Camino 123% cheaper than my 1st one! That should include the R\T transportation from home (or even better - my front door) to place where Camino begins and from where Camino ends (which does not have to be SdC)

Sheesh, whoever wrote that initially (not @Peterexpatkiwi ) had their marbles screwed on the wrong way!

 

[davejsy]

Do the arithmetic.

Ok I'll have a go.
8-2 = 6 (the difference in cost)
2 (cost in Spain)/6 (difference in cost to France) as a percentage = 300%
So the price you are paying is 300% cheaper than you would in France (in this example).
This is basic arithmetic.

 

[CWBuff]

@davejsy - yes but now you have to do the same with 123%!

 

[davejsy]

@davejsy - yes but now you have to do the same with 123%!

Yes I have realised my oversight there! I never was good at basic arithmetic!

 

[henrythedog]

Ok I'll have a go.
8-2 = 6 (the difference in cost)
2 (cost in Spain)/6 (difference in cost to France) as a percentage = 300%
So the price you are paying is 300% cheaper than you would in France (in this example).
This is basic arithmetic.

Are we allowed to say ‘bollocks’? We’ll see.

The higher price is four times the price of the lower, or 300% more.

The lower price is 25% of the higher or 75% less.

Nothing can be more than 100% less than anything unless it’s negative.

I’m assuming that somewhere up the thread someone was trying to communicate something so that it might be understood? Not always a given.

 

[C clearly]

a pint of beer is 300% cheaper in Spain than France etc (2 euro v 8 euro).

2 (cost in Spain)/6 (difference in cost to France) as a percentage = 300%

???? 2 divided by 6 = 0.33 = 33%, not 300%. The price you are paying is 67 33% less.

People mix up the use of "times" (a multiplication product) with "more/less" (an addition).

I’m assuming that somewhere up the thread someone was trying to communicate something so that it might be understood?

Better to have said that something was "significantly less" than something else.

 

[CWBuff]

Are we allowed to say ‘bollocks’? We’ll see.

I think I go with a fine example of Nadsat: Yarbles bolshy great yarblockos to thee and thine

 

[CWBuff]

???? 2 divided by 6 = 0.33 = 33%, not 300%. The price you are paying is 33% less.

Technically, above: 2 is 33% of 6 so the price we are paying is 67% less (if 6 = 100% and 2 = 33% then the difference is)

That said, never we mind this 2\6 since the original example given was 2 euro Spain vs. 8 euro France.
Hence as was noted before its 75% cheaper.

Which still does not even remotely comes to given 123% less

(Im sorry but methinks me much rather discuss the oft-maligned Ps vs Ts - this math gives me a Haddock!)

 

[Molly Cassidy]

Not so sure! I take the point but am sure the folks who produce the numbers would need to smooth them and take out folks at highest and lower end of earning scales otherwise they would not be credible!

Median measures should counter this.

 

[C clearly]

2 is 33% of 6 so the price we are paying is 67% less

You are correct. I've edited my post.

To sum up, before I go find a life:

67% of 6 is: (0.67 x 6) = 4
67% times 6 = (0.67 x 6) = 4
67% less than 6 is: [6 - (0.67 x 6)] = 2.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Will somebody please take us back to the original purpose of this thread: "standard of living/quality of life in Spain". We appear to have strayed somewhat (how unusual for this forum... )

The worst of it is is that I started it by carelessly quoting such a poorly crafted sentence

 

[davejsy]

You are correct. I've edited my post.

To sum up, before I go find a life:

67% of 6 is: (0.67 x 6) = 4
67% times 6 = (0.67 x 6) = 4
67% less than 6 is: [6 - (0.67 x 6)] = 2.

But don't forget that 6 is 300% of 2

 

[CWBuff]

Will somebody please take us back to the original purpose of this thread: "standard of living/quality of life in Spain". We appear to have strayed somewhat (how unusual for this forum... )

The worst of it is is that I started it by carelessly quoting such a poorly crafted sentence

The purpose of the thread is that life in Spain is 123% less than the life in US while 8Euro beer in France is 67% more expensive than 6Euro beer does not matter where! ...WAIT....

And here ends the Lesson of the DAY

 

[Rita Flower]

Not so sure! I take the point but am sure the folks who produce the numbers would need to smooth them and take out folks at highest and lower end of earning scales otherwise they would not be credible!

Herein lies the flaw. Often the numbers don’t need to be credible, they just need to show the picture that the number crunchers wishes to show.

 

[Bob008]

Are Lugo, Melide, Arzua true representation of small cities/towns in Spain? Or they just seem so vibrant and livable only because of pilgrim spending? The 3 cities could easily be on the top 10-20 lists of most livable small cities in the US.

 

[Bradypus]

Are Lugo, Melide, Arzua along the Caminos true representation of small cities/towns in Spain? Or they just seem so vibrant and livable only because of pilgrim spending? The 3 cities could easily be on the top 10-20 lists of most livable small cities in the US.

Pilgrim spending may add a sizeable sum to the income of Arzua and Melide but I doubt it is a very large percentage in the overall economies. There are equally vibrant towns on the Via de la Plata which receive very few pilgrims. Easy to exaggerate the effect of the Caminos in a large town. Pilgrim spending is fairly narrowly focussed mainly in the hospitality sector. I suspect that in the case of Lugo pilgrims barely register on the economic scale at all - numbers on the Primitivo are tiny in relation to the size of the town.

 

[dougfitz]

Ok I'll have a go.
8-2 = 6 (the difference in cost)
2 (cost in Spain)/6 (difference in cost to France) as a percentage = 300%
So the price you are paying is 300% cheaper than you would in France (in this example).
This is basic arithmetic.

Let us all know when you retire and start running a pub. I will be the first at your door asking you to pay me for drinking your beer!! At 300% less than the 8 euro beer, you would be paying me 16 euro - that would be wonderful for the short time you remained in business

 

[C clearly]

Are Lugo, Melide, Arzua true representation of small cities/towns in Spain?

There are many many small cities and towns in Spain that you have never heard of, and which seem to be very livable. Of course there are also many many depopulated villages that people have left to find employment.

 

[dougfitz]

Oh dear not you as well !

@Peterexpatkiwi, my apologies. I should have acknowledged your correction. It was careless of me not to do that.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I can hear birds singing outside at 2 a.m. I wake to the sound of church bells. The children playing in the plaza speak three languages among them, but they understand one another. We can watch them play from the terrace of the local bar, where a glass of quality wine costs 1.30 euro, and comes with a good tapa.
It is extremely hard to find skilled craftsmen out in the country, and the vaunted public transportation and utilities systems have pretty much abandoned these tiny towns. There's litter, and plenty of solo elderly folks living in poverty, without indoor hot water or laundry facilities.
There are also plenty of bigots. You can be a socialist here, but the guy serving your wine still votes for the old Franco Falange party!
I am American, I've lived in a Spanish village for 18 years. It's a mixed bag. But I cannot imagine going back.

 

[Pilgrim9]

My question is simply about the arithmetic. If the cost is $1000 , how much is "123% cheaper"?

I was puzzled by that too. Here is one way to make sense of it:

For X to be 100% cheaper than Y would require X to cost nothing, regardless of the cost of Y.

Arguably, for X to be 123% cheaper than Y would require that persons acquiring units of X would be paid 23% of the prevailing unit cost of Y, i.e., the producers of X would pay people to take units of X away. This is negative pricing and did actually occur for a very brief period several years ago when the price of oil fell below zero. Getting rid of garbage is another example: one must pay the acquirer to take it away.

 

[dougfitz]

Are Lugo, Melide, Arzua true representation of small cities/towns in Spain? Or they just seem so vibrant and livable only because of pilgrim spending? The 3 cities could easily be on the top 10-20 lists of most livable small cities in the US.

I think the camino effect would be much more evident in smaller towns and villages. When I walked in 2010, Foncebadon was still very much coming out of its ruins. Six years later it was a much different place. While it might be one of the more obvious places to have benefited from pilgrims, I am sure other small villages will have infrastructure that only survives on pilgrim traffic, and which would fade away if that ceased or slowed.

I also wonder whether there is a 'guidebook effect' where places identified as stage endpoints get greater benefit than those in between. This might be a chicken and egg effect. Guidebook authors choose places that have a reasonable prospect of providing accommodation for larger numbers of pilgrims as end points, which increases the demand for accommodation there, and locals respond, eg by renovating some spare rooms and getting approval to offer them for pilgrims and others. This generally increases the income for the whole town if other businesses are engaged in providing the support services that come with the increase in pilgrim numbers staying there.

 

[brian560]

To be honest, I thought the GNP data would be a decent indicator of the country. Even within the US, I notice the difference in infrastructure between high-income states and low-income states. Since the GNP per capita of the US is about twice that of Spain, I thought Spain would be somewhat less prosperous than the US, which I found to be completely not the case. Public system is much better. Cities are safer. The costs of living, as far as I can tell as a tourist, are lower. Don't have first-hand experience with health-care in Spain, but I heard it is affordable unlike the US. So needless to say, my impression of Spain is quite good except for food (but that's a different issue).

GNP is not a good indicator of overall wealth given the huge number of very rich people in the USA.

 

[CWBuff]

Oh and now it's a "huge number of very rich"
Surely more than 1%
HUUUUGE

I will repeat myself again (with obvious addition) - to some poor block out there YOU are very rich!!!

And as many already pointed out in this thread it is conjecturerable at best depending on location. In say WVa $1,000,000 may still be "something " but in CA it's chump change

 

[Pelegrin]

Are Lugo, Melide, Arzua true representation of small cities/towns in Spain? Or they just seem so vibrant and livable only because of pilgrim spending? The 3 cities could easily be on the top 10-20 lists of most livable small cities in the US.

Melide and Arzua are examples of " cabezas de comarca in Spain" heads of region where supers, bars, restaurants and a few businesses are located to give services to the villages around. So, they are " vibrant" in the shopping period, the rest of the time are quiet. Lugo is a capital of province and therefore has much more businesses, a hospital, etc and the vibrant period is longer.

 

[davejsy]

Let us all know when you retire and start running a pub. I will be the first at your door asking you to pay me for drinking your beer!! At 300% less than the 8 euro beer, you would be paying me 16 euro - that would be wonderful for the short time you remained in business

The worrying thing is that I was an investment banker for 20 years (however I have to state I was not responsible for any of the financial crashes due to my basic arithmetic).

You will be welcome to a beer if I open my pub, but please bear in mind that if I open my pub in France your beer will be 300% more expensive than if my pub is in Spain

 

[David Tallan]

Having lived in Spain for 8 months last year, I think it's much more than just income. What I see in a lot of Spain is an inclusive culture, not dominated by income and expenditure, but by family and community. So, in the small town where I lived, if the weather was good everyone was out in the square, some at cafes, but many more just sitting on benches enjoying the company. No-one was excluded because they couldn't afford, or didn't want, to buy anything.
While the overall average income is lower than the US, I think the gap between rich and poor is smaller, which generally makes for a happier, more equal society.

I'm not going to touch the math issue with a ten foot pole.

And before I offer my own observation, I want to thank the people in this discussion for, for the most part, not letting this devolve into a polarized political discussion.

That said, I think there may be something worth considering in the observation about how much more life tends to be lived out in the community in Spain: in the plaza, cafes (and bars), or just sitting on the benches. I can't speak for the US, but that is noticeably more the case in Spain than in Canada where I live.

It makes sense to me that people might be more willing to invest their resources (however much of those resources there are) in places where they spend their time. If people are spending their time in their homes, they may be less interested in investing in their communities. If they are spending much of their time out in their community, investing as much in their private space might become a little less important.

Of course, this creates a chicken and egg question.

 

[trecile]

That said, I think there may be something worth considering in the observation about how much more life tends to be lived out in the community in Spain: in the plaza, cafes (and bars), or just sitting on the benches. I can't speak for the US, but that is noticeably more the case in Spain than in Canada where I live.

Speaking for the US, at least my corner of it, that's true.
And interestingly, my husband and I went on a walking tour in Barcelona today. Our guide was a young French woman who has lived here for six years. My husband asked her why she likes living in Barcelona, and one of her reasons was exactly this.

 

[trecile]

That said, I think there may be something worth considering in the observation about how much more life tends to be lived out in the community in Spain: in the plaza, cafes (and bars), or just sitting on the benches. I can't speak for the US, but that is noticeably more the case in Spain than in Canada where I live.

Speaking for the US, at least my corner of it, that's true.
And interestingly, my husband and I went on a walking tour in Barcelona today. Our guide was a young French woman who has lived here for six years. My husband asked her why she likes living in Barcelona, and one of h reasons was exactly this. She said that it is very easy to be part of a community in Spain.

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

Speaking for the US, at least my corner of it, that's true.
And interestingly, my husband and I went on a walking tour in Barcelona today. Our guide was a young French woman who has lived here for six years. My husband asked her why she likes living in Barcelona, and one of h reasons was exactly this. She said that it is very easy to be part of a community in Spain.

Same is true for us, when we're in small-town Portugal. Here in Canada, people are very private, and as you say, a lot of their/our lives is spent at home. In Barquinha, life is to some degree lived on the street. Although we're foreigners, and our Portuguese is pretty painful, and there's not that much English spoken locally, we are included in community events by our neighbours, without hesitation. And there's far more of those community events, and they're usually free/cheap enough that everyone can participate--events funded by a local village club, paid for by the parish, or some combination of the two.

People are very friendly. Families stick together for sure, but open their circles to those who don't have local family, like us and just a few of our neighbours.

We bought our home--a Portuguese almost-ruin-- in 2017, have come and gone as much as we've been able to, since--with the pandemic, family duties and emergencies, and life generally, keeping us from making a move. Meanwhile, we and a variety of tradespeople have fixed the roof, fixed the walls, installed some decent heat, and finally, put together a working kitchen. The contrast between how we lived when we first visited, and now, is quite dramatic. The two visits of 3 months each where I had to do dishes in the bathroom, and cook on a hotplate in an almost-closet, were definitely a low point.

Last month we got our D7 visas from our local Portuguese consulate, and by autumn, we should be EU residents, if only temporary, for the first few years. We are itching to finish up here in Canada, and get going. We're almost there!

I totally understand Bob's original post. Spain has the same kind of inclusive culture as Portugal. The quality of life can seem amazing to those of us from North America.

 

[Jan Jones]

European pilgrims frequently ask me why I travel all the way from Australia to Spain to walk.Of course the landscape is a major reason but I simply love the conviviality of Spain. It just doesn’t happen in the same way in my part of the world. Of course the decay of the villages is sad - I try not to romanticise my experience, but when I am in the midst of it and observing that interaction I am very content in a way I don’t feel at home.

 

[Dougie]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

GDP per capita doesn't really reflect the wealth of the average person, while Norway and United Arab Emirates have similar GDP per capita,only 12% of the UAE residents hold 88% of the countries wealth, while in Norway 82% of its residents have 76% of the countries wealth.

 

[Simperegrina]

The US recently sent 100 billion in military aid between Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan rather than spending it on there own infrastructure at home or it's own citizens. They do this quite often.
Most US cities look old, tired and stuffed with homeless people.
Priorities.

Gonna bite my tongue on this one as I dont want to incur the mods’ hammer

 

[CWBuff]

Gonna bite my tongue on this one as I dont want to incur the mods’ hammer

Ditto

 

[Bob P]

Another thing being overlooked is weather.

In my small town US community, when the weather is cooperative, (early spring and late fall) we have dances on the plaza and street dining at main street restaurants.
But,,, that's a very limited amount of the year. When it's 30C+ and 70% humidity until after dark, people want to be in air conditioned spaces.

 

[David Tallan]

Another thing being overlooked is weather.

In my small town US community, when the weather is cooperative, (early spring and late fall) we have dances on the plaza and street dining at main street restaurants.
But,,, that's a very limited amount of the year. When it's 30C+ and 70% humidity until after dark, people want to be in air conditioned spaces.

Weather, combined with typical daily schedules. I think there are plenty of places in Spain where the streets are deserted during the day due to the heat. But they fill up at night, even with kids playing in the plaza at 11pm. (At least, that's how I remember it.) Here in Canada, kids would be asleep before  cena time in Spain.

 

[dailycamino]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

You're not missing anything

 

[t2andreo]

I am a pilgrim. My needs are simple. I have clothes on my back, extra things in my rucksack.

I have funds adequate to my purpose. In fact, I have enough to share with others, less fortunate.

Wherever I go on Camino, I try to go along to get along. For six-years, I have been teaching myself Spanish using Duolingo. So, I am able to communicate and make myself understood.

When I am in Spain, I try to live life, and relate to my surroundings as a Spaniard.

All of this discussion about the cost of living, etc., just sounds silly to me. IMHO, it completely misses the point of going on Camino, or living in another society, albeit briefly.

I try, and I encourage everyone, to keep all these things in the correct, Camino, perspective. Rebekah’s post was the best one in this thread.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[RickyBGood]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

I have visited Spain every year since 2022 and headed back in September for 3 months. I usually stay 45-80 days. I say that to give you a sense of my experience there. I am an American but of Spanish descent (in fact there’s a small town 100 KM east of Madrid that Carrie’s my last name).

My sense is that Spanish culture is not one of consumption whereas Americans—generally speaking—consume and we define ourselves by what we possess. I say that not necessarily as a negative but as a reality of what it means to be American. By contrast, Spaniards tend to value relationships or connections with family and friends more than owning material things. The Spaniards I spoke with point out that they do t earn as much as their European counterparts. They are equally as quick to point out that their quality of life is fantastic even though they earn less. To a Spaniard—generally speaking—a well balanced life with comfortable housing, decent salary but time to enjoy life is the way of life they prefer.

So I work my ass off in Florida and then spend 3 months Spain. .

 

[tomwins]

The US recently sent 100 billion in military aid between Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan rather than spending it on there own infrastructure at home or it's own citizens. They do this quite often.
Most US cities look old, tired and stuffed with homeless people.
Priorities.

It doesn't need to be an either/or. The US has enough to do both.

 

[tomwins]

I moved to Spain (from the US) two years ago after visiting many parts of it over a few decades.
My QoL in Spain has improved dramatically. I've been retired for ten years and am more engaged and involved here than I ever was in the US. I was bordering on obesity and now am back to a BMI in the healthy range and feeling more energetic and sometimes even spry. I live near the beach and there are people walking with friends/family ALL the time, especially in the evening.

Life in Spain is slower than in the US and is inter-connected with those around you. Friends who visit tell about driving from the house to the parking space and it reminds me of how disassociated from others I felt when I lived in the US.

I don't own a car and hop on a train to go to events or see friends all over Europe. Tomorrow I'm flying to London to meet my brother and his two adult children. We'll travel to Paris, Switzerland and Italy. I hope they see what I have found and start resisting the hurried and harried push of life in the US.

 

[WGroleau]

Most interested though is asking were you surprised by what you saw in Spain. What were your preconceptions. Don’t worry I am not signing up for the old stereotype about folks from USA being unaware of anything outside their country. I know that to be nonsense but just curious.

All stereotypes are nonsense, but many (and CERTAINLY this one) have a bit of reality inspiring them.

 

[Bradypus]

All stereotypes are nonsense, but many (and CERTAINLY this one) have a bit of reality inspiring them.

I am a Brit and should probably confess to my fair share of stereotyping with regard to our former western colonies. But I owe my introduction to the Caminos to a citizen of the USA - my late mother-in-law Barbara whose childhood and adolescence was divided between Ontario and Vermont. And through Barbara's recommendation the superb book by Laurie Dennett - another native of Toronto - which described Laurie's journey in the 1980s when the paint on the first yellow arrows was barely dry. When I feel the need of background information on places of interest along the Francés which is not instantly found through Google then I turn to the encyclopedic guide by Gitlitz and Davidson. I have the great good fortune to have been a guest of @Rebekah Scott on a couple of occasions and count her as a friend. Camino connections with the USA run deep and long. A mistake to think that all that jazz started with the 2010 movie.

 

[Liltravlr]

I visited Spain for the first time and came back to the US few weeks ago. My overall impression of the country, after visiting major cities to small towns, is that Spain seems to have higher standard of living/quality of life than the US. Streets are clean, no blighted and dangerous areas, didn't have to use it but I heard that they have excellent yet affordable health care, restaurants are not crazy expensive like in the US so people can go out and enjoy, even small cities have good walking/biking trails and recreation facilities, public transportation system is well-developed, etc. Nominal GNP per capita in the US (~$76000) is more than twice that of Spain (~$32,000). Even GNP per capita at purchasing power parity, which might be a better indicator of real income, shows that the US (~$78,000) is much higher than Spain (~$46,000). On paper, the US should have twice the living standard of Spain (or Spain 2 times poorer than the US), but it certainly does not feel that way. What am I missing here? Can anyone enlighten me on this?

In the US (and Canada, because we are so influenced by the US), we grow up with an expectation of having a house and car, and all the luxuries on TV like Starbucks and Air Jordans. Like, the influence is so strong that we simply expect to have it, live in a big five bedroom house with a big grass yard and a dog. So that’s all you do, you go to school to get a good paying job, then you work that job to pay off the house. From going to Europe, and talking to everyone I know from Europe, they do not have that expectation. I live in Vancouver, one of the most expensive cities in the world due to crazy real estate. I am a lawyer, but as a single mom, I have a two bedroom apartment with a 25 year mortgage that still takes half of my income. My single friends all have small apartments, and we generally will go out and socialize and go to parks. Anyone I know who has a house never goes out because they spend all their time and money taking care of the house & the yard, and may invite people over, but tend to go out less. Houses require land, and they want land between them and their neighbor, which is by definition isolating. Netflix and social media are extremely pervasive, so people stay in for entertainment. The US also has a huge immigrant population, which tend to be poor on arrival, and many of the world’s billionaires, so there is a huge gap between them, and the rich don’t want to live anywhere near the poor. The US donate a huge amount to other countries and have a huge military, which is very expensive. Their basic culture from inception is independence - you eat what you kill, that is, your life is what you make it, with no real concern for Socialism at home, although they do spend a lot policing & helping the world. Spain is smaller & denser & therefore can have better public transit. Europeans have a broader outlook- they can hop on a bus or train & experience 3 countries & cultures in one day. After 40 years of travelling around to 115 countries, I have to repeat that having a house seems to be the difference. I don’t know anyone in Europe who owns a house, except one retired married teacher in Switzerland, and even he has to take a whole day trip if he wants to visit somewhere else because he is in the countryside. People with houses just don’t have the ability usually to walk to a neighbourhood bar to hang out for a two dollar glass of wine, they have to drive, so they don’t. Also, Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms, which means there are a whole lot more guns in the country, and therefore more violent crime. My suburb is fairly walkable, but certainly if you want to go anywhere in Canada outside of big cities, you have to have a car.