Ruins of a tower between Hontanas and Castrojeriz

[Bert45]

Can you tell me anything about the structure in my photograph? What was it part of, when was it built? that sort of thing. Thanks.

 

[J Willhaus]

In the Brierly guidebook it intimates that it is part of the ruins of a mill. Another source says the ruins were from Molino de Cubo and part of the village of San Miguel.

 

[Pilgrim9]

The mysterious tower is at
(42.3108327, -4.0686831)

In my overstimulated imagination, it was attached to a rural residence, and the little porthole near the top enabled the country folk who lived there to sit inside and keep an eye on the doings of the big city folk in Hontanas, without themselves being seen.

 

[Bert45]

Hmm. A village called San Miguel? I'd expect more ruins. A mill? I'm ruling nothing out. I wish (just a bit) that I'd walked the 'real' camino from Hontanas to Castrojeriz, rather than taking the easy route along the smooth, level, tarmac road. [Don't condemn me! I walked the real, i.e. signposted, camino in 2003, but I was using film in those days, and probably felt I could not spare a frame for that structure.] I could have had a closer look at the tower. Is it a tower, even? It seems too small in width (both ways) to have a staircase within it. It cannot be a water mill, as there is no stream nearby. Windmills are not common round there – at least, I've never seen one.

 

[Kathor1]

Erm ... everybody can see that that's not the ruins of a mill in the photo, whether water or wind driven.

Brierley merely writes that the path takes you past the ruins of an old mill and the ruins of an abandoned (medieval) village called San Miguel. He does not say whether he saw either of them and how close they are together but he probably noticed what's left of the church tower. Who doesn't? The website of the town of Hontanas has photos of both ruins - the mill and the tower.

 

[Pilgrim9]

The tower might have served a mundane purpose such as, for example, anchoring overhead electrical cables and feeding them down (inside the tower) to a transformer or switchgear housed in a small attached stone cabin. That would be consistent with the compact footprint of the building rubble seen in overhead view.

I have seen in northern Spain similar narrow stone towers that are actually electrical system structures, including one in 2017 about 500 metres north of the CF somewhere along the meseta high ground, just before the CF descended into one of the river valleys. When I walked by the site in 2022 the stone tower had been razed and replaced by a steel tower.

 

[Bert45]

It seems there are two streams near to the tower (Garbanzuelo and Valderubaya), but not near enough for the tower to be part of a water-mill. Google Maps marks the tower "Ruinas de una torre".
I've looked for the website of Hontanas. Found this: https://www.hontanas.es/inicio . Clicked on 'Galería de Imágines.' Two photos! Both of the church. Hardly what I'd call a 'Gallery'. So I clicked on 'Lugares de Interés. I found Molino del Cubo, a photo of mill wheels covered in 15cms of snow - ver mas - click - a map! A marker on Calle Manzana. Then I went to Iglesia de San Vicente - ver mas - a map! A marker on Calle Manzana – the same place! Nobody's prefect, I always say . In fact, all 6 places of interest are in the same place on the map. But I'll take "Ruins of the Church of San Vicente" as my caption. It's quite a long way from Hontanas, though. Was it the church of the village of San Miguel? Wait a minute! That doesn't make sense! The church of the village of San Miguel would surely be dedicated to San Miguel. There are three more photos that I didn't see at first. One makes it clear that the 'tower' is solid, and a description, translated, reveals: "These are the remains of the church of an ancient medieval village, which still preserves a corner wall." So it was a buttress, I think. I read that word somewhere in the last few hours, in connection with this topic, but I can't remember where.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

It cannot be a water mill, as there is no stream nearby. Windmills are not common round there – at least, I've never seen one.

Horse mill - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bert45]

Horse mill - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is significant, perhaps, that the road leading out of Hontanas towards the Camino Santiago Francés is named as Camino del Cubo. 'Cubo' means 'mill-pond' (among other things) which ties in with 'Molino del Cubo' on the Hontanas website. So, although the 'tower' is some distance from a stream, the molino must have been on one of the streams.

 

[J Willhaus]

Question: @Bert45 you are often asking questions about specific places and sites. Are you a historian or just really interested in history of the places on the Camino.

 

[Bert45]

Question: @Bert45 you are often asking questions about specific places and sites. Are you a historian or just really interested in history of the places on the Camino.

I am not a historian. I have taken thousands of photos on my caminos. I like to caption them with information about the subject of the photo. I sometimes get the information I need from something displayed next to the subject, sometimes I get information from the internet. Unfortunately, it seems that, if I look at two results from a Google search, the information is different, like with the Casa de Tejada. Then I turn to the forum. I also turn to the forum if I cannot find any information on the internet. This was a case where I couldn't find any information about the 'tower' on the internet. But I wasn't looking in the right place. The information is there, on the Hontanas website, but I might not have found it, even then. Because of the photos, I suppose you could say I'm really interested in the history of places on the internet.

 

[mattythedog]

Hmm. A village called San Miguel? I'd expect more ruins. A mill? I'm ruling nothing out. I wish (just a bit) that I'd walked the 'real' camino from Hontanas to Castrojeriz, rather than taking the easy route along the smooth, level, tarmac road. [Don't condemn me! I walked the real, i.e. signposted, camino in 2003, but I was using film in those days, and probably felt I could not spare a frame for that structure.] I could have had a closer look at the tower. Is it a tower, even? It seems too small in width (both ways) to have a staircase within it. It cannot be a water mill, as there is no stream nearby. Windmills are not common round there – at least, I've never seen one.

Mills are not all powered by wind or water. Humans and animals can be used.

 

[Kathor1]

It is significant, perhaps, that the road leading out of Hontanas towards the Camino Santiago Francés is named as Camino del Cubo. 'Cubo' means 'mill-pond' (among other things) which ties in with 'Molino del Cubo' on the Hontanas website. So, although the 'tower' is some distance from a stream, the molino must have been on one of the streams.

You can see the ruins of the mill from the Camino (I don't recall that we noticed it. We certainly did not see the millstones). It is next to the stream called Garbanzuelo. You can see the location in Google Earth. It is to the left of (south of) the Camino de Santiago, about 500 metres before you reach the church ruins. Apparently, the millpond has disappeared but its dam can still be seen.


Another photo is here: https://es.wikiloc.com/rutas-sender...z-camino-de-santiago-157845115/photo-99054274

 

[jungleboy]

I don't have any info on the ruin, but I was also quite struck by it when I walked past.

 

[Kathor1]

a buttress

I can't see that the church ruins are part of what is left of a buttress when you look at it from all angles, for example @jungleboy's great photo or the photo below. It looks like the facade, i.e. the front end, of these (to me) typical Spanish churches where the bells are not enclosed in a tower but are on top of a wall that is higher than the other three walls. There is probably a Spanish word for it. This would also fit with the traditional east-west orientation of medieval churches. @Bert45, you took your photo in the morning?



PS: Found it. The bell-gables or espadañas are a feature of Romanesque architecture in Spain. They replaced the bell tower beginning the 12th century due to the Cistercian reformation that called for more simplified and less ostentatious churches, but also for economical and practical reasons as the Reconquista accelerated and wider territory needed to be re-christianized building more churches and espadañas were cheaper and simpler to build. Today, they are a common sighting in small village churches throughout Spain and Portugal. (Wikipedia).

 

[Bert45]

I can't see that the church ruins are part of what is left of a buttress when you look at it from all angles, for example @jungleboy's great photo or the photo below. It looks like the facade, i.e. the front end, of these (to me) typical Spanish churches where the bells are not enclosed in a tower but are on top of a wall that is higher than the other three walls. There is probably a Spanish word for it. This would also fit with the traditional east-west orientation of medieval churches. @Bert45, you took your photo in the morning?

View attachment 179888

PS: Found it. The bell-gables or espadañas are a feature of Romanesque architecture in Spain. They replaced the bell tower beginning the 12th century due to the Cistercian reformation that called for more simplified and less ostentatious churches, but also for economical and practical reasons as the Reconquista accelerated and wider territory needed to be re-christianized building more churches and espadañas were cheaper and simpler to build. Today, they are a common sighting in small village churches throughout Spain and Portugal. (Wikipedia).

I took the photo at 11:20. One of the reasons that I undertook another camino earlier this year was to see the things I had read about or seen on the internet for myself. There were a few things I was still unable to see, of course, churches were locked, etc. But this discussion has highlighted a couple of things (the 'tower' and the mill) that I might need to make another camino to see for myself, even though I had resolved not to do another camino.
The site around the remains of the church (which I used to call the tower) looks remarkably clear. We'll probably never know why the church (and village?) was abandoned, but, once that happened, it is likely that people took nicely carved blocks of stone from the church and other buildings to build their houses and barns elsewhere. But why did that stop, leaving what remains of the church? Another question with no answer.

 

[Kathor1]

I took the photo at 11:20

The reason for my question / assumption that you took the photo in the morning: the direction of the shadow of the “tower” in your photo and the common east-west orientation of Christian churches in the Middle Ages.

 

[Wombat]

No one has mentioned the ruins in the valley at 42.31052062398464, -4.062017907462965 (paste this into google maps) This is probably the mill referred to in Brierley . Spanish topographic maps show 2 stream channels in the valley and the northern one is probably a leat. There appears to be a structure on this leat which could be a mill pond.

On Spanish topographic maps the tower is named as the "Torreón de Hontanas". The University of Burgos lists this site by the above name (coordinates check out) in an inventory (spreadsheet) and classify its type as "Castillo" (I searched for "Torreón de Hontanas" including quotation marks)

The tower has a good view down the valley towards San Anton and possibly was a defensible watch tower.

 

[Pilgrim9]

It's certainly interesting to try to puzzle out these vestiges based on fuzzy overhead pictures.

I think we need Tony Robinson and the Time Team.

 

[Kathor1]

There is a photo of the ruins of the mill (at 42.31052062398464, -4.062017907462965) in post #13 and a link to a another photo.

There are excellent and clear photos of the other structure - 500 metres further along the Camino (at 42.3108327, -4.0686831) - from various sides that confirm what @Bert45 said already in post #4, namely that it cannot be part of a bell tower or a watch tower and why it cannot be so, even when it is referred to as a tower on the web and in this thread.

One cannot say that nobody has mentioned this or that it has not been discussed. This thread has only 20 posts so really not yet TL;DNR.

 

[Kathor1]

The University of Burgos lists this site by the above name (coordinates check out) in an inventory (spreadsheet) and classify its type as "Castillo" (I searched for "Torreón de Hontanas" including quotation marks)

I remain unconvinced about it being a defensible watch tower, and so should you and everybody else following this thread. You did not provide a link to this spreadsheet of "The University of Burgos" but I found one relevant spreadsheet on their site. It does list the ruins as "Castillo" (it is the classification taken from a specific database) but it also lists the ruins as "Iglesia" (classification in another apparently more accurate database). Here is the link and a translation of the most relevant entry:

Its ‘Original use’ has been corrected in this BB.DD with respect to the information in the PACU file, as it is in fact ‘the remains of the church of an ancient medieval settlement that still conserves a corner wall’ (Source: https://hontanas.es/lugares-de-interes/iglesia-de-san-vicente). // On Google Maps it appears as ‘Ruinas de Torre’ (Ruins of Tower). // It is located in the middle of practically inaccessible agricultural land. // The web text and the CBPJCYL image refer to the church in the village of Hontanas. ​

BB.DD and PACU are two different databases. The information in the spreadsheet is not direct original research about this one ruin, it is a collection of information retrieved from a variety of databases and similar sources about the cultural patrimony in Castilla and Leon. Never rely on just one source you found on the web, that's my guiding principle ...

Link: Inventario de Bienes de Interés Cultural del Camino Francés en Castilla y León. Spreadsheet. You need to download it because the columns are badly formatted and you cannot see the complete content of cells with long text when merely viewed online.

 

[Pilgrim9]

The tower had to have had some functional purpose.

Chimney?

 

[Kathor1]

@jungleboy, I have to thank you again for your excellent photo and for sharing it. It helps me to retain my sanity . Below is a close up of your photo.

Am I the only one who see the tiles? The part of the wall where there was a continuation at the top of the photo as well as at the bottom of the photo? Where there is no continuation of the wall but where the wall ends smoothly? Where, at the top, there is the beginning of a round arch? The thin decorative ledge beneath it? That is a typical medieval bell gable as they had been built all over the place in their time.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Push hard enough on walls and they collapse leaving the corners because the piece of wall there is reinforced by the piece of wall behind it.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Below is a close up of your photo.

Thank you @Kathor1 for the picture and explanation. We posted at the same time and not having studied the thread's pictures and posts closely enough I thought we were discussing a corner with the remnants of two walls that appeared to be a tower only from a certain angle. Your picture showed a third wall and I assume there is a fourth one still out of sight.

There is an old thread that you may be interested in here:

Thread 'Romanesque architecture for beginners'

Nov 19, 2020

As a person with very limited knowledge of architecture and history, I'd like to get some pointers on how to recognize different styles of architecture in Spain. It is overwhelming to google and find the huge amount of detail available - I need something a little more friendly, to get me started.

Rather than trying to go chronologically through history, let's start with one style that is often mentioned in connection with the Camino - Romanesque.

My challenge is for those unnamed members who wax poetic about Romanesque, to say in one sentence, how they recognize Romanesque when...

• C clearly
• art/architecture history
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• Camino de Santiago Forum: Culture, History & Language for pilgrims

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[Kathor1]

Erm ... it's not my photo, it is @jungleboy's photo from post #14, and I had requested earlier today to have my forum name shortened.

Here is a photo of a medieval church building in Avila that has not fallen to pieces and is close in design and architecture to the Hontanas ruins. In Hontanas everything is gone except a bit of the higher wall where the bells were and a bit of the lower lateral wall, and they both formed a corner of the church.

 

[Pilgrim9]

Am I the only one who see the tiles? The part of the wall where there was a continuation at the top of the photo as well as at the bottom of the photo? Where there is no continuation of the wall but where the wall ends smoothly? Where, at the top, there is the beginning of a round arch? The thin decorative ledge beneath it? That is a typical medieval bell gable ...

Good eye and good work, Kathor1.

 

[Kathor1]

Now what's intriguing about the gable of the ruined church near Hontanas is this opening where you could think that it is a lookout if you did not know any better.

Is that a feature or a fluke? Something we will never find out?

There is a church in Catalonia with a bell gable and a similar opening, see the two photos below - it the same gable, once seen from the front and once seen from the back and the opening is clearly visible. There may be more ... we may have passed these small churches and we never noticed this nor did we take a picture.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

The architect was awarded the No Bell prize for this.

 

[Bert45]

No one has mentioned the ruins in the valley at 42.31052062398464, -4.062017907462965 (paste this into google maps)

Kathor1 did at post #13.

 

[Kathor1]

I've looked for the website of Hontanas. Found this: https://www.hontanas.es/inicio . Clicked on 'Galería de Imágines.' Two photos! Both of the church. Hardly what I'd call a 'Gallery'.

Alas ! Not everybody is a talented web designer, and once the webpages are released to the online world, somebody has to maintain them and keep them up to date and correct errors and mistakes - this does not always happen, as we know only too well. And not everybody has a knack for finding stuff that may have fallen off the proverbial online waggon, so to speak.

I found these two photos of the ruins on www.hontanas.es. They are, together with @jungleboy's excellent photo, perhaps the best that the online surfer can get . Again, one can see clearly where there used to be a wall and where there wasn't a wall and how high these walls were and this helps to visualise what the building once looked like. A click on the thumbnails gives a better view (ruins seen from the east; from the west; from far):

...

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

More pictures of the tower if anyone is still interested:

Flickr: Everyone's photos taken near 42°18' 39" N, 4°4' 07" W

The safest and most inclusive global community of photography enthusiasts. The best place for inspiration, connection, and sharing!

www.flickr.com

 

[Bert45]

Now what's intriguing about the gable of the ruined church near Hontanas is this opening where you could think that it is a lookout if you did not know any better.

Is that a feature or a fluke? Something we will never find out?

There is a church in Catalonia with a bell gable and a similar opening, see the two photos below - it the same gable, once seen from the front and once seen from the back and the opening is clearly visible. There may be more ... we may have passed these small churches and we never noticed this nor did we take a picture.

View attachment 179953

Both of those small holes, or openings, are at the same level as the axle on which the bell rotates. Is this a coincidence? Perhaps the hole allows access to the axle? For its installation or repair?