New Zealand camino community?

[LittleAkaloa]

Hi all, is there a New Zealand camino sub forum here or on another online platform?

Thanks

Bernie

 

[LeslieC]

Hi Bernie. Welcome to the forum.

There's certainly a bunch of us on here. Have a look at https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/forums/australia-and-new-zealand.87/

We seem to contribute to a range of topics, not just specific 'antipodean' ones!

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Hi all, is there a New Zealand camino sub forum here or on another online platform?

Thanks

Bernie

No

Someone, at some stage lumped Kiwis in with Ozzies on a sub-forum but no one has contributed for yonks.

For me that is a bit like lumping the French in with the Germans.

At some levels that might make sense to some people, after all they are close geographically and shares some level of similarity in social mores, especially as a result of the EU standardisation process but beyond that they are different. The geography of their countries differ.

Of course there are some people in the world who think that you can get from Auckland to Sydney by driving across the Auckland Harbour Bridge but really, there is no real hope for these people.

 

[jungleboy]

No

Someone, at some stage lumped Kiwis in with Ozzies on a sub-forum but no one has contributed for yonks.

For me that is a bit like lumping the French in with the Germans.

Because we all know that France and Germany fought on the same side during the world wars? Sorry, but this is a poor analogy for many obvious reasons.

 

[Kiwi-d]

I very much doubt the poster was thinking about France and Germany fighting on the same side in World Wars. I suspect it was more that France and Germany are on the same side of the world and people think because Australia and New Zealand are both on the other side of the world they must be the same. Wrong.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Because we all know that France and Germany fought on the same side during the world wars? Sorry, but this is a poor analogy for many obvious reasons.

Aotearoa New Zealand fought on the same side of the second world war as Russia. Should ANZ and Russia be paired on the forum?

I think that the factor that you plucked out of somewhere to be the attribute which pairs ANZ with Australia is a poor factor for obvious reasons.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I guess that we could tit-for-tat for a while on this subject without getting any real resolution.

I concede that people who are not from Aotearoa New Zealand or Australia may well pair the two countries in their mind and in some isolated areas that pairing might make some sense but in terms of the forum most of those isolated areas are not unique to these two countries and there are enough differences that would make it rather silly.

Both ANZ and Australia are in the Southern Hemisphere and so share some seasonal similarities but (clearly to me) there are many more Southern Hemisphere countries that have residents that regularly turn up on Caminos in Spain.

Both countries are a long way away from Spain but again a number of other countries are far from Spain.

ANZ is in the Pacific and part of a larger grouping of Pacific Nations that are collectively called Oceania. I don't know if Australians consider themselves to be part of Oceania or not but if they do then this might be a more inclusive name for a sub-forum from this region.

Some differences between ANZ and Australia include that Australian residents rarely travel to Spain via ANZ and vici-verco Kiwis do not often choose to travel to Spain via Australia and so mostly we don't share travel experiences with only each other. Maybe we share something with all countries that are far from Spain.

The physical geography of both countries is, in general, quite different with perhaps Tasmania sharing some geographic features.

The wildlife and flora are almost completely different.

The climate in each country is different.

There are many other differences.

Of course, people who don't really know each country sometimes (often) think that our accents are the same but ask any Kiwi or Ozzie if they have the same accent and then stand back while you get a blast.

I don't really want to use a word like ig****nt as that is likely to cause offence but maybe I can say that people who think that these countries are the same should perhaps get out a bit more often and learn about the world.

 

[David Tallan]

No

Someone, at some stage lumped Kiwis in with Ozzies on a sub-forum but no one has contributed for yonks.

For me that is a bit like lumping the French in with the Germans.

At some levels that might make sense to some people, after all they are close geographically and shares some level of similarity in social mores, especially as a result of the EU standardisation process but beyond that they are different. The geography of their countries differ.

Of course there are some people in the world who think that you can get from Auckland to Sydney by driving across the Auckland Harbour Bridge but really, there is no real hope for these people.

It might be because having a separate subforum for every country was deemed unduly cumbersome and difficult to navigate, and not worth it for the amount of traffic these "home region" forums generate. So the decision was made to group them geographically. If you look, I think you will find that Germany and France do not have separate forums (the forum for "Routes in France" is a different beast altogether) and do, in fact, share a forum.

Rather than separate Australia and New Zealand into two separate forums, I would add Oceania to the mix. Perhaps that hasn't been done because no Camino groups outside of Australia and New Zealand have come forward from Oceania.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

So the decision was made to group them geographically

That was a poor decision.

Personally, I would prefer that there wasn't a separate sub-forum. If Australians want one and the forum "management" want to allocate them one then so be it but I see little value in including Aotearoa New Zealand in that sub-forum.

Other Kiwis can speak for themselves.

Perhaps that hasn't been done because no Camino groups outside of Australia and New Zealand have come forward from Oceania.

When I look at the statistics from the Santiago de Compostela church website I see regular evidence of pilgrims from other countries in the Oceania grouping.

I doubt that there is much point in having a separate Oceania sub-forum but neither do I see the point of including ANZ as an afterthought for an Australian sub-forum.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I think you will find that Germany and France do not have separate forums

You present an excellent argument for not having separate sub-forums for individual countries. I believe that the exact same, excellent logic should be applied to the pairing of Australia with Aotearoa New Zealand.

As I said in a prior post, I can see no good reason for this sub-forum.

With the excellent "label" facility it is easier and more targeted to use an "Aotearoa New Zealand" label for posts that might be of particular interest to other Kiwis and a separate "Australia" label to posts that might be of interest to other Ozzies and in some rare cases it might be appropriate to use both labels on a small number of posts.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

For me that is a bit like lumping the French in with the Germans.

Because we all know that France and Germany fought on the same side during the world wars? Sorry, but this is a poor analogy for many obvious reasons.

I disagree, it's actually an extremely good analogy. The immediate inference is very clear: they are geographical neighbours.

Agreed, Australian and New Zealand cultures appear more similar than French and German.
However they are different, and as pointed out above there are also significant differences in other areas.

Heck, unlike the French and Germans we don't even share a currency.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Hi all, is there a New Zealand camino sub forum here or on another online platform?

Thanks

Bernie

Hi Bernie

There are a number of active Kiwis on this forum. If you have a question from a Kiwi perspective then please feel free to ask and ignore the blast from me aimed elsewhere.

If you prefer to talk more personally then there is a direct message facility that you can use to talk with specific people.

Buen Camino and welcome to the forum

 

[David Tallan]

When I look at the statistics from the Santiago de Compostela church website I see regular evidence of pilgrims from other countries in the Oceania grouping.

I doubt that there is much point in having a separate Oceania sub-forum but neither do I see the point of including ANZ as an afterthought for an Australian sub-forum.

Having individual pilgrims from Oceania I'd different from pilgrim associations in Oceania. These forums were created so that pilgrims could take about pilgrim activities at home, generally organized by pilgrim associations. I disagree that ANZ is an "afterthought".

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

If you prefer to talk more personally then there is a direct message facility that you can use to talk with specific people.

@LittleAkaloa - apologies I too should have welcomed you before joining in above!

Be aware that in order to use the pm facility you need first to have posted (I think six?) public messages.

Please make yourself familiar with the search function (magnifying glass top right), all of the more common questions have been asked many times and you will frequently find the answer there.
That said the only dumb question is the one that you did not ask..... and there are many on here who will happily respond.

 

[David Tallan]

You present an excellent argument for not having separate sub-forums for individual countries. I believe that the exact same, excellent logic should be applied to the pairing of Australia with Aotearoa New Zealand.

As I said in a prior post, I can see no good reason for this sub-forum.

With the excellent "label" facility it is easier and more targeted to use an "Aotearoa New Zealand" label for posts that might be of particular interest to other Kiwis and a separate "Australia" label to posts that might be of interest to other Ozzies and in some rare cases it might be appropriate to use both labels on a small number of posts.

There is, however, a forum for Europe. And there is a forum for North America where the pilgrims can post about activities organized by the CCOP, APOC, and ACSM. Are you suggesting that there be no such forum to discuss activities organized in New Zealand or Australia? A label isn't sufficient, because posts have to be in a forum in order for a label to be applied. Which forum should they go in?

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Having individual pilgrims from Oceania I'd different from pilgrim associations in Oceania. These forums were created so that pilgrims could take about pilgrim activities at home, generally organized by pilgrim associations. I disagree that ANZ is an "afterthought".

There is no pilgrim association in Aotearoa New Zealand.

This leads me to wonder why someone chose to add "and New Zealand" on the end of Australia in the sub-forum name?

If the criteria for creating a sub-forum is having a Pilgrim Association then the criteria has been inappropriately and inconsistently applied.

 

[David Tallan]

There is no pilgrim association in Aotearoa New Zealand.

Clearly, one needs to be started!

I've raised the labeling of the forum with other moderators who may not be following this thread.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Clearly, one needs to be started!

I've raised the labeling of the forum with other moderators who may not be following this thread.

Please would you also discuss creating separate "Aotearoa New Zealand" and "Australia" tags because I think that using these tags would be much more useful for me and hopefully other Kiwis.

 

[David Tallan]

Please would you also discuss creating separate "Aotearoa New Zealand" and "Australia" tags because I think that using these tags would be much more useful for me and hopefully other Kiwis.

Which then would lead us down the path of having to make separate tags for every country.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

@DoughnutANZ I think the reasons behind Ivar introducing it were sound, and in context the name makes sense:

Thread 'Please read this first!'

Jun 20, 2010

This area of the forum is to help prospective and past Kiwi and Australian pilgrims to introduce themselves, and perhaps to make contact. It is not intended as an alternative to the general forums but to make the organisation of meetings and get-togethers easier.

You might like to include details such as the region you are from, whether you have already walked a Camino route or are planning to in the future, and which route(s).

(More personal details like real name, phone number etc might best be shared later via PM if you decide you want to make contact with someone.)

Buen Camino!

• ivar
• Replies: 6
• Camino de Santiago Forum: Australia and New Zealand

• 

Oceania is a term that is potentially little known to forum members outside of the area concerned. In fact many of the 14 countries within it probably don't even think of themselves as such.

Personally, I'd rather be labeled an ANZAC than a member of Oceania.
But then that doesn't exactly help either.

New Zealand and Australia have always been close, with a long and proud history of cooperation, cultural, political, security and economic ties.
On an individual level I liken it more to being part of a family: we may have our squabbles but I know that in times of true adversity they will have my back.

If we need a sub forum then it requires a name: I have no problem with it as it stands.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Which then would lead us down the path of having to make separate tags for every country.

Not necessarily. I suggest that you listen to your "customers" when they request a new tag.

If Australians don't want a specific tag for their country then there is no need to create one.

I would like one for ANZ.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

@DoughnutANZ I think the reasons behind Ivar introducing it were sound, and in context the name makes sense:

Thread 'Please read this first!'

Jun 20, 2010

This area of the forum is to help prospective and past Kiwi and Australian pilgrims to introduce themselves, and perhaps to make contact. It is not intended as an alternative to the general forums but to make the organisation of meetings and get-togethers easier.

You might like to include details such as the region you are from, whether you have already walked a Camino route or are planning to in the future, and which route(s).

(More personal details like real name, phone number etc might best be shared later via PM if you decide you want to make contact with someone.)

Buen Camino!

• ivar
• Replies: 6
• Camino de Santiago Forum: Australia and New Zealand

• 

Oceania is a term that is potentially little known to forum members outside of the area concerned. In fact many of the 14 countries within it probably don't even think of themselves as such.

Personally, I'd rather be labeled an ANZAC than a member of Oceania.
But then that doesn't exactly help either.

New Zealand and Australia have always been close, with a long and proud history of cooperation, cultural, political, security and economic ties.
On an individual level I liken it more to being part of a family: we may have our squabbles but I know that in times of true adversity they will have my back.

If we need a sub forum then it requires a name: I have no problem with it as it stands.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.

I recognise my Pasifika roots and I would much rather be under an Oceania label, if there is one.

Interestingly, the things that you say link ANZ and Australia apply equally to recent relationships between France and Germany. It is one of the reasons that I chose that specific pairing.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Which then would lead us down the path of having to make separate tags for every country.

Interesting, so you are saying that it is not appropriate to have a tag for individual countries but somehow it is okay to have a separate sub-forum for two particular countries just so (only) the people from those countries can introduce themselves to each other.

Isn't that a little bit inconsistent?

Is there something unique about these two countries that justifies a separate sub-forum but not tags?

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.

I recognise my Pasifika roots and I would much rather be under an Oceania label, if there is one.

Interestingly, the things that you say link ANZ and Australia apply equally to recent relationships between France and Germany. It is one of the reasons that I chose that specific pairing.

I am aware. Historically however they also had significant periods of conflict - unlike us Anzacs.
I initially typed it out (and considerably more) but it became somewhat of an essay.

Incidentally and this is just my opinion but ANZ to me (and many other New Zealanders) is a bank. And to Google. I understand why you use the abbreviation, I just don't like it.

I applaud your recognition of your Pasifika roots, however like the majority of other New Zealanders (92% according to Google) I do not share them. And I'm not sure how that has led to you calling NZ 'Aotearoa New Zealand', but then I have been an expat kiwi for over 6 years now, perhaps I'm missing something.

Both I and my son (a completely different generation with very different schooling) refer to New Zealand as either New Zealand or Aotearoa. Whilst I have no objection if you refer to me as a New Zealander, I am not an Aotearoan (thankfully that word doesn't even exist), I am a Kiwi.

Perhaps that is something for a private conversation, you're very welcome to PM me.

I think the point with sub forum names is to make them easier to find. It would never occur to me to search for Oceania.

 

[David Tallan]

Interesting, so you are saying that it is not appropriate to have a tag for individual countries but somehow it is okay to have a separate sub-forum for two particular countries just so (only) the people from those countries can introduce themselves to each other.

Isn't that a little bit inconsistent?

Is there something unique about these two countries that justifies a separate sub-forum but not tags?

I don't think that is the purpose of the subforum. We are aware that some discussion goes on in the forum about Camino-related events and activities that are local to where pilgrims live, nor to where they walk. We don't think those are contrary to the purpose of the forum
For example, if there were to be a showing of a Camino-related film in Toronto, or a walk organized by the Toronto Camino Community, I might want to post it here because other members from Toronto (or close enough to make the trip) might be interested. People living in Tokyo are less likely to find it useful. That's why we created the geographic forums.

If we just used tags, and someone wanted to post about a gathering for Camino pilgrim's in Sydney or Aukland, where would you suggest they post it? I know it can be tagged, but it has to be posted somewhere.

 

[dick bird]

How about Australasia instead of Oceana? I confess I am not entirely sure what the discussion is about here.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

I don't think that is the purpose of the subforum. We are aware that some discussion goes on in the forum about Camino-related events and activities that are local to where pilgrims live, nor to where they walk. We don't think those are contrary to the purpose of the forum
For example, if there were to be a showing of a Camino-related film in Toronto, or a walk organized by the Toronto Camino Community, I might want to post it here because other members from Toronto (or close enough to make the trip) might be interested. People living in Tokyo are less likely to find it useful. That's why we created the geographic forums.

If we just used tags, and someone wanted to post about a gathering for Camino pilgrim's in Sydney or Aukland, where would you suggest they post it? I know it can be tagged, but it has to be posted somewhere.

Are you suggesting that I might want to fly 2155 kilometers from Auckland to Sydney in order to watch a Camino related film that is currently showing in Sydney?

If so I would ask for some of what you are currently smoking please.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

How about Australasia instead of Oceana? I confess I am not entirely sure what the discussion is about here.

No thanks.

It would be interesting to get feedback from other Kiwis beside just myself and @DoughnutANZ . @Kiwi-family, @AlwynWellington, @lovingkindness, etc

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Perhaps flying the 4867 kilometers between Dunedin and Perth, Australia makes more sense to you.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

On the other hand if someone posted something under miscellaneous topics that was about a Camino related movie that was currently showing in Hamilton and it had an ANZ flag then I may well look at it and ponder driving south to Hamilton.

While you could note the ANZ flag and realise that this is not the Hamilton in Canada that is being talked about

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Given the distance between Toronto and Tokyo is 6429 kilometers then that is not significantly further than Dunedin to Perth, Australia and so that makes your argument supporting lumping the two countries into the same forum even sillier.

 

[David Tallan]

Are you suggesting that I might want to fly 2155 kilometers from Auckland to Sydney in order to watch a Camino related film that is currently showing in Sydney?

If so I would ask for some of what you are currently smoking please.

Nor do I want to fly to Austin, Texas for a get together there, or across Canada for a get together in Vancouver. But they are all lumped in the North America forum because otherwise we are back to one for every country, or worse, town. At least with North America I don't see posts from elsewhere around the world unless I go looking for them.

 

[David Tallan]

On the other hand if someone posted something under miscellaneous topics that was about a Camino related movie that was currently showing in Hamilton and it had an ANZ flag then I may well look at it and ponder driving south to Hamilton.

While you could note the ANZ flag and realise that this is not the Hamilton in Canada that is being talked about

Ah, I see now. You are suggesting that we get rid of the geographic forums for activities elsewhere and put it all under "Life on the Camino".

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Nor do I want to fly to Austin, Texas for a get together there, or across Canada for a get together in Vancouver. But they are all lumped in the North America forum because otherwise we are back to one for every country, or worse, town. At least with North America I don't see posts from elsewhere around the world unless I go looking for them.

But at least by calling the sub-forum North America you include all three countries within that geographic area.

Australia and New Zealand excludes all the other islands of Oceania.

At least Oceania is inclusive while Australia and New Zealand is exclusive.

BTW, slightly relevant fact: Santiago de Compostela is very close to the same distance from Toronto that Auckland is from Perth Australia.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

Time for me to go to sleep. I guess we continue this never ending theme tomorrow.

 

[VNwalking]

there are also significant differences in other areas.

Just a few.

Australia

Not to mention and killer 🕷

NZ

And no or killer🕷

The OP asked an innocent question, and mostly has gotten a different discussion in return. Not so helpful, even if it is diverting.

But as a subforum, it makes some sense to combine A and NZ to ANZ. The travel logistics have much in common...both places are a really long way from Spain. From NZ it's 24 hous in a plane, not counting layovers. Sydney is a bit closer...and Perth significantly more so. But still.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The OP asked an innocent question, and mostly has gotten a different discussion in return. Not so helpful, even if it is diverting

I agree, I thought I'd asked if the moderators would consider moving it to a different thread but I'd see that was part of the stuff that I deleted. Oops.

 

[Dudley]

@DoughnutANZ I think the reasons behind Ivar introducing it were sound, and in context the name makes sense:

Thread 'Please read this first!'

Jun 20, 2010

This area of the forum is to help prospective and past Kiwi and Australian pilgrims to introduce themselves, and perhaps to make contact. It is not intended as an alternative to the general forums but to make the organisation of meetings and get-togethers easier.

You might like to include details such as the region you are from, whether you have already walked a Camino route or are planning to in the future, and which route(s).

(More personal details like real name, phone number etc might best be shared later via PM if you decide you want to make contact with someone.)

Buen Camino!

• ivar
• Replies: 6
• Camino de Santiago Forum: Australia and New Zealand

• 

Oceania is a term that is potentially little known to forum members outside of the area concerned. In fact many of the 14 countries within it probably don't even think of themselves as such.

Personally, I'd rather be labeled an ANZAC than a member of Oceania.
But then that doesn't exactly help either.

New Zealand and Australia have always been close, with a long and proud history of cooperation, cultural, political, security and economic ties.
On an individual level I liken it more to being part of a family: we may have our squabbles but I know that in times of true adversity they will have my back.

If we need a sub forum then it requires a name: I have no problem with it as it stands.

Thanks some sense expressed here, also International clarity obvious. Please Let’s avoid the confusion using other than who the world knows us as, ie New Zealand.
ANZ is globally understood as Air New Zealand.

Lets remember this is a Camino forum after all, not talk back radio.

Thanks, I currently am preparing to walk 4 Camino, starting April 21st 2025