Ethics

[MARSKA]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

 

[VNwalking]

The desamortización de Mendizábal in the 19th C. didn't arise in a void.

And certainly the ordinary (and not so ordinary) people of Mesoamerica had less, because of all the gold flowing into Spain. Far less, with effects to this day. I think of that every time I see an ornate golden retablio.

We can't change the past (it's hard to know even in the present what to do about obscene wealth disparities). So being reminded of inequality and theft by the art and architecture that came from that? Yes. But it doesn't appreciation of what is beautiful.

 

[Gobsmacked by the World]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

 

[Paladina]

I would be concerned more with current inequalities in income and living conditions for which the Church is not primarily responsible. Few pilgrims travelling to Spain are likely to venture off the trail as far as the squalid encampment of Cañada Real. I am acutely aware that the Madrid hostel that provided me with a few nights’ affordable and very welcome lodging might be put to better use in housing the homeless in more dignified, safe and sanitary conditions.

 

[Bumpa]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

I am reminded of an experience with the Burgos cathedral. As I walked out the door with my eyes still dazzled by the ornate exuberance of the interior, I turned a corner. There I found a young woman, with a child in a stroller, going through the church's garbage dumpster. A whole different world separated by a wall.

 

[bullingtonce]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

Well, yes; on a superficial perspective this could well be true, but it is also one of the most beautiful, joyful, and spiritual manmade creations in human history. I can get a small glimpse of what it was like for a poor, struggling peasant to see such structures and to, hopefully, enter one. such architectural marvel.
The church had more because the church had more. Human history has always been one of suffering and inequality and will always be as we drive our Tesla vehicle and eat organic food while slavery still goes on, on a large scale, in this world--there are more slaves today than during the time of the Atlantic slave trade and people forget that were over 2,000,000 slaves during the Moorish times--many of them castrated so as to reduce the levels of slavery and, in tandem, increase the value of an individual slaves.
The good news is that, over time, the human race gradually improves/gradually gets better even though there are times when there is retrograde. There is no 'Good Ole Times' as the age we are living in is the best there ever was. It is said that common people have possess more now than a king did in the old days. And like you point out, the church had more then and the tech world/AI has millions of times more than the average person. Such will always be the case. Inequality is a permanent fixture of life and, oddly to say, should always be the case; otherwise, such marvelous creations (not 'creations' in the biblical sense) would never take place. The reason we have cures for cancer is due to inequality. Please keep inequality; I like cures for cancer. You will notice these almost miracle technological advances do not take place on a significant order of magnitude in socialist/communist governmental entities. Do not depend on a Venezuela or a Cuba to produce such marvels. Won't happen.
Take hope and appreciation that during those many centuries ago such wondrous and godly masterpieces were created. In the midst of all the suffering and wars going on during those times, came beauty, wonder, and spirituality--all speaking to striving to levels unimaginable that continues to this day.
My one cent's worth or maybe my 1/2 cent's worth. Chuck

 

[MesaWalker]

It´s no coincidence that the gold-leafed, baroque interior architcture in Spanish churches coincided with the riches flowing from the Americas. There must have been a sense of endless money at the time, and nearly nobody in Spain was worried about the plight of the peoples in the New World generating that wealth, except perhaps a few Dominicans out of Salamanca - very interesting display there. Between all the architecture and ill-fated military campaigns like the Spanish Armada, Spain must go down in the history books with maybe a few autocratic oil-rich countries as ultimately squandering immense wealth without really improving the lives of its citizens. The Catholic Church was squarely in the middle of it all

That said, the Church has done wonderful things, too. It´s true that it was important to a lot of people, rich and poor, that church spaces give a glimpse of the wonder and majesty of heaven otherwise missing from ordinary people´s live. It´s hard to reconcile that, especially from our modern mindset.

Personally, I admire some of the ornate churches like the cathedrals in Burgos, León, Santiago de Compostela, and maybe Sevilla, largely as magnificent art museums. If I want to feel closer to God, I look for the simple, original Romanesque churches.

 

[dougfitz]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

I think this is a rather simplistic, even naive, way to frame any discussion on this subject. The answer to your direct question, the Dorothy Dixer that you have proposed, is 'of course'. What you don't address:

• who were the ordinary people who contributed to the building and decoration of their local church? Were they local parishioners who willingly donated from the income they generated by farming, trading, etc in their town or region? Or were they someone who had ventured to the New World, Africa or Asia, and had built their wealth on the exploitation of the people and resources there?
• Or were they returning soldiers who had plundered in the New World. This appears to have been a common practice, not isolated to the Spanish and Portuguese, and practiced by armies across time. It would not then, or even quite recently, have been seen as anything but an honourable adjunct to soldiering and privateering to receive a share of any booty captured. Deplore it today if you will, but don't deny these historical realities.
• were these 'ordinary people' the more wealthy members of the community who sponsored major works like the altarpieces, religious works of art, or even the commissioning of a chapel in their name, as acts of devotion. One might debate the circumstances in which they were able to accumulate this wealth, but it often appears that what I might think of as ordinary people were not remembered for their contributions to these so-called 'ornate religious structures'.
• Just looking at these structures will not reveal whether those who made those contributions made other philanthropic contributions to their communities. My daughter's recent work on her family history has revealed that my grandmother spent part of her childhood in an orphanage funded by philanthropic contributions from the community. I suspect that many ordinary people contributed to similar causes throughout history, and there are well established patterns to promote that in most religions so far as I can tell.
• your question doesn't explore what roles religious buildings might have played in the community aside from their use as places of worship. In the age before printing and the spread of literacy as we know it today, the spoken word and drawings, paintings, sculptures, etc seem more likely to have been the mechanisms for recording and passing on the 'stories' that were at the heart of the societies that existed at the time.

 

[J.Patrick]

I can’t help thinking that this topic is venturing into forbidden forum territory, and presumes a distinction between “church” and town folk that is uninformed.

The “church” in a town is the people of that town. They built the beautiful building. It’s their beautiful building. It belongs as much to the village beggar who prays in it as it does to the priest who presides in it but does not own it.

 

[Dani7]

@MARSKA to answer your question, the opulence of the cathedrals I saw along the Camino Frances did not make me feel connected to a higher power or to feeling spiritual while inside or outside of them. They felt cold and disconnected from my Spirit.

The rural and smaller churches made me pause, and feel humble and grateful for being able to do the journey. They made me want to spend time there, at times to ponder…other times to pray. This is where I met the most gentle souls of nuns and volunteer caretakers, and this is where I felt at peace and oh so connected to myself. Being outside in nature, walking all day gave me that same peace.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I, like others, feel more "spiritually minded" and motivated for personal reflection in the small, austere and simple chapels.
That said, I am still always able to fully appreciate the beauty of the incredible cathedrals I visit. I marvel at the complex engineering details, and that men were able to execute the building of them hundreds of years ago using the archaic tools of that time.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Pre-Napoleonic Spain had a complex network of charitable institutions-- orphanages, hospitals, refuges for the agèd and poor. Many were funded and established by the confraternities-- we see them at passiontide lifting up huge crosses and towing floats. There were even confraternities for the enslaved and African freedmen, providing what was effectively insurance, both for life and burial, as well as mutual support. Most of them disappeared during the laicization of the 1820s, but then slowly became re-established.

The Spanish diplomat who had described (at length!!) this complicated world said that they happened at the same time and for the same reasons that huge sums were directed toward the elaborate decoration of churches. It comes from a period of intense religious feeling which is very foreign to how we think now.

My own preference is for the plain stone country churches in obscure pueblos, but that's me-- I was not one of the 17c hidalgos or newly-freed west African slaves of Seville, and I live at another time.

@dougfitz might like to know that Spanish diocesan archives contain much documention of the establishment of confraternities as well as the funding of churches and monasteries. As in England, church courts were responsible for probating wills, and most testaments laid out in detail the wishes and rationale of donors.

 

[RobertS26]

It's funny, I did not look at the churches on the Camino and think to myself, "Now that's a waste of money." Rather I looked at $200 carbon fiber hiking poles, $500 sunglasses, and designer day packs costing who knows what, and thought, "Now there is a waste of money."

 

[bigcaminolover]

I think this is a zero sum mentality: " did not ordinary people have less because the church had more" ... a beautiful church brings a lot of stability, wealth, peace etc. to a community ...

 

[Tincatinker]

‘Sfunny innit. I have from time to time looked at the various (Solomon R) Guggenheim institutions and thought “if he’d only paid his workers another few $/Francs an hour or even handed out the occasional Christmas bonus I wouldn’t have to discover his appalling taste in art and architecture in so many cities that were doing fine before that obscene wealth smeared itself all over everywhere all at once”.

@MARSKA, I’m not sure where your question is coming from but it might be the wrong direction. How come it took until 1937 before the impoverished and oppressed peasantry of Spain started to burn churches? - might have been a good question though not one for this forum.

You may have noticed that the poor always have less. The institutions that have more are usually more visible. The poor only become noticeable when they stop staying out of sight

 

[CWBuff]

Can i humbly interject that the Cathedrals were built (first and foremost, no matter what secondary reasons are) To The Glory Of God.
I was absolutely stunned by the beauty and vision of La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona! The opulence of Burgos is formidable, but of course pales in comparison of Basilica Papale di San Pietro in Citta di Vaticano...and at the same time the simplicity of Leon but also breathtaking with everything flying so high up...
I try not to theorize as to why, who, whee and how did the $$$ come from (as @dougfitz mentioned above- good number of churches, cathedrals etc. were built with solid and sizable dotations of "ordinary people" that were shall we say slight better off). The world has yet to change, and I doubt that it ever will (much to our desire or chagrin - take your pick).
All I know is that if the finances were spent on something else - we simply would not have these beautiful buildings to marvel at.

 

[ParisOslo]

This is a YouTube video of the cathedral!

Impressive to say the least!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I thought the Burgos cathedral was stunning and I really liked that the interior was quite light.
Leon's cathedral interior was much darker, but it had an unusually large amount of colorful stained glass windows throughout. I thought both were impressive, yet very different.

 

[RJM]

You are overthinking it, IMO.
If one were to remove all the gold and other precious things and sell them that amount of money would, in relative terms, be a pittance and not solve any poverty or disparity in Spain or the world as a whole.
Also, if all those extravagant displays bring in tourism which in turn brings in jobs and money for the local economy, then they have actually done a positive thing and paid for themselves many times over.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I love the beautiful old cathedrals, as well as the small parish churches, and I'm glad they are here. As I mentioned in a prior thread, this athiest Jew came closest to having a "religious" experience upon first seeing the Baldacchino in Rome.

Still, I don't think it wrong to view these buildings in the context of history, and remember that much of this wealth was stolen from indigenous peoples, that thousands of people died in their construction, and that many cultures and peoples have suffered greatly* under the guise of religious expansionism.

*e.g., Native Americans in the US West and Southwest; Jews in Spain and Portugual; etc.

 

[bigcaminolover]

Still, I don't think it wrong to view these buildings in the context of history, and remember that much of this wealth was stolen from indigenous peoples, that thousands of people died in their construction, and that many cultures and peoples have suffered greatly* under the guise of religious expansionism.

*e.g., Native Americans in the US West and Southwest; Jews in Spain and Portugual; etc.

And let's not forget: Christians in Spain (and elsewhere) under Islamic rule ...

With regard to 'stolen wealth from indigenous peoples,' in the context of the Spanish Empire, we have some work by historians Regina Grafe and Alejandra Irigoin that refutes this notion. They argue that the Spanish Empire was not an extractive empire but I believe it will take some time for this position to become mainstream history.

With regard to the statement 'thousands of people died during their construction,' I find it an interesting topic to explore. The mental image that comes to mind is one of thousands of worker-slaves in the Middle Ages, toiling day and night to build a cathedral, as dictated by the king and the pope. However, this mental image contradicts some historical facts. For example, the eight-hour workday was created in 1594 by the King of Spain, and it seems that medieval people had more time off than we do today.

 

[Tincatinker]

I have a notion that thousands of people died during the construction of most of these great edifices. Most of those great churches, palaces and fortresses took many decades, some centuries, to build. Lots and lots of people will have died over those years. Very few will have had anything to do with the building of Cathedrals. The Masons; Carpenters; Joiners and others who built those structures were experts in their trades. They knew what they were doing and did it well, and safely.

The image of the downtrodden serf stacking blocks with blood soaked mortar is as laughable as Charlton Heston’s Pharaohs flogging the Israelites all the way to the top of the pyramid.

Society in the Middle Ages wasn’t that different to our own. The plumbing might have been a bit dodgy by our current standards but at least they didn’t have the bloody internet to spread even more mythologies than the Priesthood.

 

[Tincatinker]

Apropos of nearly nothing but I refer m’learned friends to the sage words of Phil Gaston reflecting on this modern age and not the cruelties of the past:

The canals and the bridges, the embankments and cuts,
They blasted and dug with their sweat and their guts
They never drank water but whiskey by pints
And the shanty towns rang with their songs and their fights.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.
They died in their hundreds with no sign to mark where
Save the brass in the pocket of the entrepreneur.
By landslide and rockblast they got buried so deep
That in death if not life they'll have peace while they sleep.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.
Their mark on this land is still seen and still laid
The way for a commerce where vast fortunes were made
The supply of an empire where the sun never set
Which is now deep in darkness, but the railway's there yet.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

And let's not forget: Christians in Spain (and elsewhere) under Islamic rule ...

This thread is not about how we might feel upon viewing the Alhambra or the Taj Mahal. This deflection may make you personally feel better, but it ignores and belittles the actual suffering by those who were targeted by the Inquisition, the Expulsion of Jews, and the enslavement of Native Americans by Spanish Missionaries, all of which is very well-documented.

As for the thousands who died -- I did not say they were enslaved or forced to do the work. The fact is, though, that many workmen, skilled and unskilled, died in building those magnificent buildings, and it shouldn't be forbidden to give that a thought or two when marveling of them.

 

[bigcaminolover]

This thread is not about how we might feel upon viewing the Alhambra or the Taj Mahal. This deflection may make you personally feel better, but it ignores and belittles the actual suffering by those who were targeted by the Inquisition, the Expulsion of Jews, and the enslavement of Native Americans by Spanish Missionaries, all of which is very well-documented.

As for the thousands who died -- I did not say they were enslaved or forced to do the work. The fact is, though, that many workmen, skilled and unskilled, died in building those magnificent buildings, and it shouldn't be forbidden to give that a thought or two when marveling of them.

If the thread is "how we might feel upon viewing" the cathedrals on the Caminos, I'm ok to go with it.
The cathedrals of the Camino are my favourite cathedrals but I know that other european countries also have beautiful cathedrals. For example, Poland, Croatia, Montenegro, Georgia ..absolutely beautiful cathedrals and churches and these countries never had colonial empires. Spain would have had beautiful cathedrals even without its colonial empire.

 

[dick bird]

Spain would have had beautiful cathedrals even without its colonial empire.

That´s a good point, especially as most of Spain´s cathedrals were built well before Europe even knew the Americas existed (Baroque façades and chapels are a different matter of course)

I have a notion that thousands of people died during the construction of most of these great edifices

Thousands may be an exaggeration, but given that construction is even now one of the most dangerous industries, maybe not a great one. But if it had been that dangerous, they could have just walked off the job, they were free employees, not serfs or slaves and quite well paid in some cases (e.g. Master Mateo, William of Sens). This raises another issue: economic stimulus. The building of cathedral must have given a massive boost to local business, rather than wealth consuming, cathedrals may have been wealth generating.

I think this is a rather simplistic, even naive, way to frame any discussion on this subject.

Not really, it is simple, but most ethical questions are simple, it is the answers that are complex. We enjoy and benefit from visiting religious buildings, are we benefiting from someone else´s suffering and hardship? If 'yes', that is basically wrong unless there are mitigating circumstances, and it is a big 'if'.

The Americas were yet to be discovered and plundered, Jews were unwelcome but not officially persecuted before the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, Muslims were actually employed on many churches, local and itinerant artisans were employed, businesses and ancillary industries such as quarries and forestry were busy, so it was a win-win, no? Well not exactly. Every society generates wealth, but that wealth is not necessarily spent for the benefit of all its members. The decision makers in medieval times were the monarchy, the nobility, and the church and monastic hierarchy. They were not the wealth creators. They spent the wealth on grandiose and often self-aggrandising schemes and even worse on pointless and petty warfare, not to mention the Crusades.

So how do I feel when I stand inside Burgos cathedral? Pretty impressed, actually. The skill and craft is overwhelming, it is a stunningly beautiful building, as are all medieval cathedrals more or less. I spare a thought for the hardship of the common people, which I can't redress, but mainly I respect their achievement and artistry in creating this marvel.

 

[Bradypus]

So how do I feel when I stand inside Burgos cathedral? Pretty impressed, actually. The skill and craft is overwhelming, it is a stunningly beautiful building, as are all medieval cathedrals more or less. I spare a thought for the hardship of the common people, which I can't redress, but mainly I respect their achievement and artistry in creating this marvel.

A friend of mine visited Wells cathedral in the south-west of England today. He reminded me of my own visit there a few years ago when I looked down the central aisle for the first time and was stunned and frozen by the sight of the scissor arches supporting the central tower. I was gobsmacked at something which was simultaneously so monumental and beautiful and elegant and apparently so simple. At first I assumed it must be modern work but I soon discovered they dated from the 14th century and were an astounding solution to a difficult technical problem created by a 14th century master mason and architect - William Joy. I don't think I have ever felt such an instant powerful connection and admiration for a named individual from history before or since. One of those moments when one realises the truth of the notion that whatever our modern achievements may be they come from "standing on the shoulders of giants".

 

[NualaOC]

The “church” in a town is the people of that town. They built the beautiful building. It’s their beautiful building. It belongs as much to the village beggar who prays in it as it does to the priest who presides in it but does not own it.

That’s why I prefer the little ermitas to the cathedrals.

 

[Kathor1]

If the thread is "how we might feel upon viewing" the cathedrals on the Caminos, I'm ok to go with it.

I've been wondering whether this is indeed the purpose of the thread: "How does it make you feel when viewing these "ornate religious structures", and not a discussion of medieval economics and the finance plans and fund raising for the construction and maintenance of these cathedrals and other churches.

I also wondered what ornate religious structures means, and I guess it means what one mainly visits and views, namely the large and not so large cathedrals of the Camino Francés - Burgos, Leon, Santiago, Pamplona, Roncesvalles and so on - all of them Gothic or even Romanesque, i.e. all of them built, with a construction time often spreading over several centuries, and finished before the big changes in 1492; and then later during 1500-1800, their Renaissance/Baroque additions like the Obradoiro façade and the High Altar in the Santiago Cathedral and the huge retablo in the church of Navarrete - neither of them made of pure gold, just in case someone thinks so ;-).

Romanesque art, such as in cloisters, is presumably also included which was probably not cheap to produce either because the monasteries had to attract and pay skilled craftsmen. Maybe it is because the Baroque style (or rather its Spanish-Portuguese version) does not appeal to me that I never visited a Baroque church along the Camino Francés. There must be some.

And the ordinary citizens are presumably not the poor but the town people - again skilled craftsmen, tradesmen dealing with business partners all over Europe and the whole Med and into Asia, and their employees, and perhaps the lower nobility? All of them contributed to financing these buildings and they did so voluntarily. There was of course the tithe (but I don't know exactly how this was regulated in Spain), and the cathedral in Santiago had their income from their famous "voto de Santiago" system, and the better the relics and the fame of the cathedral the more income from pilgrims who also contributed voluntarily and often more than a fiver during collection time as today.

Since Burgos has been mentioned, and I don't know too much, wasn't the town quite rich (trade? with Flanders and England and France?) in the Middle Ages? I vaguely remember to have read that they had some 100 "hospitals" catering not only for pilgrims and other travellers but also for their own sick and poor people. Presumably also financed by voluntary donations, either made directly to the hospitals' founders or to church institutions and monasteries with precise specifications what the purpose of their donations is.