Ethics

[MARSKA]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

 

[VNwalking]

The desamortización de Mendizábal in the 19th C. didn't arise in a void.

And certainly the ordinary (and not so ordinary) people of Mesoamerica had less, because of all the gold flowing into Spain. Far less, with effects to this day. I think of that every time I see an ornate golden retablio.

We can't change the past (it's hard to know even in the present what to do about obscene wealth disparities). So being reminded of inequality and theft by the art and architecture that came from that? Yes. But it doesn't appreciation of what is beautiful.

 

[Gobsmacked by the World]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

 

[Paladina]

I would be concerned more with current inequalities in income and living conditions for which the Church is not primarily responsible. Few pilgrims travelling to Spain are likely to venture off the trail as far as the squalid encampment of Cañada Real. I am acutely aware that the Madrid hostel that provided me with a few nights’ affordable and very welcome lodging might be put to better use in housing the homeless in more dignified, safe and sanitary conditions.

 

[Bumpa]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

I am reminded of an experience with the Burgos cathedral. As I walked out the door with my eyes still dazzled by the ornate exuberance of the interior, I turned a corner. There I found a young woman, with a child in a stroller, going through the church's garbage dumpster. A whole different world separated by a wall.

 

[bullingtonce]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

Well, yes; on a superficial perspective this could well be true, but it is also one of the most beautiful, joyful, and spiritual manmade creations in human history. I can get a small glimpse of what it was like for a poor, struggling peasant to see such structures and to, hopefully, enter one. such architectural marvel.
The church had more because the church had more. Human history has always been one of suffering and inequality and will always be as we drive our Tesla vehicle and eat organic food while slavery still goes on, on a large scale, in this world--there are more slaves today than during the time of the Atlantic slave trade and people forget that were over 2,000,000 slaves during the Moorish times--many of them castrated so as to reduce the levels of slavery and, in tandem, increase the value of an individual slaves.
The good news is that, over time, the human race gradually improves/gradually gets better even though there are times when there is retrograde. There is no 'Good Ole Times' as the age we are living in is the best there ever was. It is said that common people have possess more now than a king did in the old days. And like you point out, the church had more then and the tech world/AI has millions of times more than the average person. Such will always be the case. Inequality is a permanent fixture of life and, oddly to say, should always be the case; otherwise, such marvelous creations (not 'creations' in the biblical sense) would never take place. The reason we have cures for cancer is due to inequality. Please keep inequality; I like cures for cancer. You will notice these almost miracle technological advances do not take place on a significant order of magnitude in socialist/communist governmental entities. Do not depend on a Venezuela or a Cuba to produce such marvels. Won't happen.
Take hope and appreciation that during those many centuries ago such wondrous and godly masterpieces were created. In the midst of all the suffering and wars going on during those times, came beauty, wonder, and spirituality--all speaking to striving to levels unimaginable that continues to this day.
My one cent's worth or maybe my 1/2 cent's worth. Chuck

 

[MesaWalker]

It´s no coincidence that the gold-leafed, baroque interior architcture in Spanish churches coincided with the riches flowing from the Americas. There must have been a sense of endless money at the time, and nearly nobody in Spain was worried about the plight of the peoples in the New World generating that wealth, except perhaps a few Dominicans out of Salamanca - very interesting display there. Between all the architecture and ill-fated military campaigns like the Spanish Armada, Spain must go down in the history books with maybe a few autocratic oil-rich countries as ultimately squandering immense wealth without really improving the lives of its citizens. The Catholic Church was squarely in the middle of it all

That said, the Church has done wonderful things, too. It´s true that it was important to a lot of people, rich and poor, that church spaces give a glimpse of the wonder and majesty of heaven otherwise missing from ordinary people´s live. It´s hard to reconcile that, especially from our modern mindset.

Personally, I admire some of the ornate churches like the cathedrals in Burgos, León, Santiago de Compostela, and maybe Sevilla, largely as magnificent art museums. If I want to feel closer to God, I look for the simple, original Romanesque churches.

 

[dougfitz]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

I think this is a rather simplistic, even naive, way to frame any discussion on this subject. The answer to your direct question, the Dorothy Dixer that you have proposed, is 'of course'. What you don't address:

• who were the ordinary people who contributed to the building and decoration of their local church? Were they local parishioners who willingly donated from the income they generated by farming, trading, etc in their town or region? Or were they someone who had ventured to the New World, Africa or Asia, and had built their wealth on the exploitation of the people and resources there?
• Or were they returning soldiers who had plundered in the New World. This appears to have been a common practice, not isolated to the Spanish and Portuguese, and practiced by armies across time. It would not then, or even quite recently, have been seen as anything but an honourable adjunct to soldiering and privateering to receive a share of any booty captured. Deplore it today if you will, but don't deny these historical realities.
• were these 'ordinary people' the more wealthy members of the community who sponsored major works like the altarpieces, religious works of art, or even the commissioning of a chapel in their name, as acts of devotion. One might debate the circumstances in which they were able to accumulate this wealth, but it often appears that what I might think of as ordinary people were not remembered for their contributions to these so-called 'ornate religious structures'.
• Just looking at these structures will not reveal whether those who made those contributions made other philanthropic contributions to their communities. My daughter's recent work on her family history has revealed that my grandmother spent part of her childhood in an orphanage funded by philanthropic contributions from the community. I suspect that many ordinary people contributed to similar causes throughout history, and there are well established patterns to promote that in most religions so far as I can tell.
• your question doesn't explore what roles religious buildings might have played in the community aside from their use as places of worship. In the age before printing and the spread of literacy as we know it today, the spoken word and drawings, paintings, sculptures, etc seem more likely to have been the mechanisms for recording and passing on the 'stories' that were at the heart of the societies that existed at the time.

 

[J.Patrick]

I can’t help thinking that this topic is venturing into forbidden forum territory, and presumes a distinction between “church” and town folk that is uninformed.

The “church” in a town is the people of that town. They built the beautiful building. It’s their beautiful building. It belongs as much to the village beggar who prays in it as it does to the priest who presides in it but does not own it.

 

[Dani7]

@MARSKA to answer your question, the opulence of the cathedrals I saw along the Camino Frances did not make me feel connected to a higher power or to feeling spiritual while inside or outside of them. They felt cold and disconnected from my Spirit.

The rural and smaller churches made me pause, and feel humble and grateful for being able to do the journey. They made me want to spend time there, at times to ponder…other times to pray. This is where I met the most gentle souls of nuns and volunteer caretakers, and this is where I felt at peace and oh so connected to myself. Being outside in nature, walking all day gave me that same peace.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I, like others, feel more "spiritually minded" and motivated for personal reflection in the small, austere and simple chapels.
That said, I am still always able to fully appreciate the beauty of the incredible cathedrals I visit. I marvel at the complex engineering details, and that men were able to execute the building of them hundreds of years ago using the archaic tools of that time.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Pre-Napoleonic Spain had a complex network of charitable institutions-- orphanages, hospitals, refuges for the agèd and poor. Many were funded and established by the confraternities-- we see them at passiontide lifting up huge crosses and towing floats. There were even confraternities for the enslaved and African freedmen, providing what was effectively insurance, both for life and burial, as well as mutual support. Most of them disappeared during the laicization of the 1820s, but then slowly became re-established.

The Spanish diplomat who had described (at length!!) this complicated world said that they happened at the same time and for the same reasons that huge sums were directed toward the elaborate decoration of churches. It comes from a period of intense religious feeling which is very foreign to how we think now.

My own preference is for the plain stone country churches in obscure pueblos, but that's me-- I was not one of the 17c hidalgos or newly-freed west African slaves of Seville, and I live at another time.

@dougfitz might like to know that Spanish diocesan archives contain much documention of the establishment of confraternities as well as the funding of churches and monasteries. As in England, church courts were responsible for probating wills, and most testaments laid out in detail the wishes and rationale of donors.