- Time of past OR future Camino
- Another one, year after year...
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I haven’t, no, in 3 caminos! There are lots of articles in the UK press about minority ethnicity groups not partaking in activities that seem to have overwhelming white participants, especially regarding walking and countryside. It’s a very complex and nuanced subject and It can get weaponised/politicised, like everything, but there are some good folks out trying to move things along. It goes a lot deeper than the Camino of course….that said I have spent most of my life in very diverse communities, and the lack of diversity from an ethnicity standpoint on the Camino was what I expected in line with below articles, though it took a lot of getting used to!! I am currently spending an extended period in Spain and the lack of diversity is very noticeable (if you come from London anyway!!!) so it’s a whole raft of things!Hello! I was having a problem of how to formulate a title for this thread. Have been looking at one of my old blogs and noticed mentioning my coming across a person of colour (a gentleman). We discussed umbrellas because he had noticed that I was carrying the same umbrella as he was carrying. I would like to throw a question to our community. We mention Japanese, South Koreans(?) etc. But the question of colour never comes up. Apart from this once I have never seen any person of colour on any of the caminos I walked - have not yet walked the CF. Has anybody here met a person of colour on a camino?
Indeed. I don’t see it as a Camino issue I guess, but it is of course noticeable on the Camino if that makes sense. I see similar on other hikes, outdoor activities(i.e visiting National Trust properties in UK, or even backpacking round South America and SE Asia for example). ‘We are where we are’ and I see it as an opportunity to broaden the demographic rather than necessarily a criticism of what’s past, although of course there is plenty of things that will contribute to where we are today.On my last Camino Frances walk in September I met two women colleagues walking together - one Belgian and the other from Uganda. But the very fact that the Ugandan woman so easily comes to my mind a couple of months later probably reflects that she was something of a rarity amongst the pilgrims I met.
Why does skin color matter to you? A pilgrim’s skin color means nothing in God’s eye, though to some people it means a great deal.But the question of colour never comes up. Apart from this once I have never seen any person of colour on any of the caminos I walked - have not yet walked the CF. Has anybody here met a person of colour on a camino?
Why does skin color matter to you? A pilgrim’s skin color means nothing in God’s eye, though to some people it means a great deal.
I believe in and pray for Dr. Martin Luther King’s words to become a reality. “I have a dream that … little children will … be judged not for the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
I don't think that it matters to @pelerine - it's just that she has noticed a big lack of diversity on the Camino, and wonders why.Why does skin color matter to you? A pilgrim’s skin color means nothing in God’s eye, though to some people it means a great deal.
Indeed, and it’s an equally big point of discussion across equivalent bodies in UK. The data is very clear. Good to explore some thoughts.Please, people, if you do not want to participate in the discussion, don’t participate. No need to disparage and trivialize the sincere questions of others. This is a serious topic that has been raised in other similar settings — the US National Park Service has been wrestling for years with the fact that both the workers and visitors to the parks are disproportionately white. Any of us who have walked a camino have surely noticed the same phenomenon in terms of racial preponderance. It isn’t a bad thing to think about why that could be.
I thought back on this … and in many thousands of kms on various caminos I can recall meeting and spending time with just two people of colour - one young French man and one young American woman.Has anybody here met a person of colour on a camino?
Yes, I took him with me last time, my husband. We're very different walkers though, he's of the plan and book-ahead school, I'm of the wing-it, make it up as you go school. Being coeliac, he's a lot harder to feed as well.Hello! I was having a problem of how to formulate a title for this thread. Have been looking at one of my old blogs and noticed mentioning my coming across a person of colour (a gentleman). We discussed umbrellas because he had noticed that I was carrying the same umbrella as he was carrying. I would like to throw a question to our community. We mention Japanese, South Koreans(?) etc. But the question of colour never comes up. Apart from this once I have never seen any person of colour on any of the caminos I walked - have not yet walked the CF. Has anybody here met a person of colour on a camino?
It is a good question and as noted upthread, it has a nuanced answer. There are some socio-cultural issues, and some economic disparity ones that apply to groups even though individuals may easily vary. But here’s 1 thing: many Euro-Americans grow up with leisure time and “outdoor access” that minoritized groups do not. As a “habitus” — being ‘outdoorsy” is for those who can afford it, are sent to things like summer camps… and something similar applies to the idea of being able to go on a retreat (Dunno about here you live, but where I live, retreats range from a few hundred to about 2000 dollars for a week-end to 2-weeks of dedicated time to follow one’s spiritual needs). If one is not habituated to such things as “features of life”, then things like train fares and overseas airfares can be real barriers to entry onto long outdoorsy privileges.By the way I try not to offend anybody. I just thought we might ask ourselves why we are not more diversified and what can be done about it. Will discuss this with “Alessandra from London” when I meet her.
I have a wonderful virtual friend "of color" and she participates quite often on this forum. We daily play "Words With Friends" (an online scrabble game) which has a chat box, so we have gotten to know each other better through that connection.
If she happens to see this thread, possibly she may choose to reply on how she first heard of the Camino and decided to walk it several times. I think she has shared her story a few times in the past.
I just love this post so much, and I’m so delighted you chimed in as I hoped you would — for I cannot think of another regular poster with a Black avatar. Thank you.To one and all, I didn’t happen upon this thread, Chrissy told me about it on: WWF.
CC, sometime next year we MUST leave our virtual existence and meet up.
Although, as Trecile knows currently I am quite reluctant to meet anyone “new”.
After a year-and-half on steroids in order to preserve life the 80 pounds gained and toothsome smile lost have made me meet and greet shy.
Methinks one reason few non whites walk may simply due to lack of happenstance exposure. That’s how all those Koreans discovered it a program in their nation. I met Brazilians who read Paulo Coelho’s book on topic. That was their entre to The Way.
Many Americans found the Camino via: Rick Steves, The Way, friends, et cetera.
But, for persons of color there maybe added bits and bobs to hinder sewing up a camino completion.
In 2000, I was teaching Sunday School at a predominantly white Episcopal parish. The rector’s wife was walking the way for her first time for her 50TH b’day. My way onto the way.
I investigated the route. Then, I decided to walk August 2001with mom insisting on going along for my protection. Or, so she said. She was 70 only walked a single orbit within the nearby mall, to my very, very professional dancer shape 39.
At that time my mom was: a college graduate from a PWI, (predominantly white institute), a divine nine (9) sorority girl. She was retired and had already traveled to Notre Dame, Vatican, Portugal and Spain, Canada, and so on.
However, however!
Her comments the first few days were interesting. From Roncesvalles to somewhere just after Pamplona she said often: “pilgrimage is for white folks, let’s leave and go to Greece”. Does every African-American feel this way? I neither know nor can speak for them. But, that’s what my well traveled mom said to me.
Once we reached Santo Domingo de la Calzada we’d worked out her bus train journey, while I walked, overcome communication problems via Internet Cafes and our Lozano guidebooks.
To this day, by the time I walked into Santiago where she’d spent a week awaiting me I don’t know who had more more fun on pilgrimage. She or I.
Also, when a white person walks into foreign predominantly white territory such as the way, concerns might revolve around fitting in, getting along, navigating the experience, budgets, can I really do this.
For me, I too have those concerns but they’re colored, pun intended, by notion of acceptance. It’s a back of brain issue but one nonetheless.
On my second camino in 2002 by day three or four I was greeted with tons of greetings and salutations from other pilgrims. The white American Jesuits with whom I was walking asked me how come so many folks already know you. I stated the obvious, I am the only person who looks like me out here.
One day those same Jesuits entered a store in a small town while I sat outside resting. Upon leaving they asked me if I had any problems on camino due to my race. I said: “no why”. They proceeded to tell me the proprietor expressed contempt towards them for walking with “la morena”.
I consider myself profoundly lucky to have had the exposure I have had. My dad insisted I attend a predominately black elementary school grades: 3-6. My mom insisted I attend the predominantly white junior high. And, my last two years of high school two races vied for predominance: Asians and Hispanics with Blacks and Whites rounding out the numbers.
And yet, even there…. There were two brainiacs at my high school a black girl and a white guy.
One day I overheard the chemistry teacher, a white guy, say to his colleague: “because of the brilliant black girl he will never again believe blacks can’t learn”. My jaw dropped. A: he’d thought blacks couldn’t learn? B: it took brilliance to show him otherwise. Sad.
These repeated experiences year in year out color travel decisions. I can’t speak for all persons of color.
Although, in general for many of us our actions regarding travel in country or without are colored by color. In the USofA blacks are still challenged when we’re at restaurants, hotels, motels. Idea being “you” should not be here.
Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
While I am yapping away. I took a few years on this platform before I made my ethnicity known. I thought long and hard. I knew I would be become the other. Did I wish that for myself. Finally, I decided this is who I am within and without with the content of my character as part of the package.
Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
Exactly so… same for the trepidations of queer folk (many of whom are, indeed, religious) being legitimately fearful that the Camino is not socially safe territory.Thank you @nycwalking for sharing your experiences with us.
Usually in these types of threads pilgrims of white European descent will say that there is no prejudice at all on the Camino, but it's something that we cannot know since we can't experience walking "in your skin."
And one of these days we will get together when I'm visiting my daughter in LA!
What an engaging and, for me, possibly confronting post. When I read the OP I thought, "It's true, I have never seen a black person on camino". But disturbingly, I had never even noticed the absence and therefore it had never occured to me to ask the question, why not?Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
This is the second comment I've noticed where you start off with "no offense", then proceed to say something offensive. Don't engage if it's irrelevant to you.No offense to the OP but this a rather silly thread
I invite you to reflect how and why the misguided platitude "skin color means nothing" (link included) is really a form of erasure. People of color have vastly different experiences than folks like myself (in this case, a white woman). To not acknowledge skin color is to not acknowledge someone's background, reality, experience, story etc etc. Quoting Dr. King is nice, but lest we forget, he was a radical and many people wanted him dead.A pilgrim’s skin color means nothing in God’s eye, though to some people it means a great deal.
Precisely!Usually in these types of threads pilgrims of white European descent will say that there is no prejudice at all on the Camino, but it's something that we cannot know since we can't experience walking "in your skin."
Thank you. That's an excellent piece.I invite you to reflect how and why the misguided platitude (with a link included) "skin color means nothing" is really a form of erasure.
Camino appears to not be very racially diverse. It may be due to location, where Europeans and North Americans may be more familiar with the routes due to word or mouth, celebrities mentioning it. films, church groups or hiking/walking groups. Or maybe it is just not well known outside of certain bubbles.
There have never been many blacks on the Camino, nevertheless I saw a larger number of black pilgrims on my last Camino than I ever had before ; and not just in raw numbers terms from walking from Santiago to SJPP, but (except in Winter) I'd see a black pilgrim on the Francès every few days, which has never been the case before, even during previous shorter journeys in "reverse". Used to be one every 7 to 10 days or so.
Having said that, I saw none at all on the Portugues last year, indeed very few blacks or North Africans even among the residents of the country.
Well said Chrissy. And I add my thanks to you @nycwalking for your post.@nycwalking, thank you for posting on this thread and sharing such candid, detailed observations of a slice of your life, along with your transparency of heart. The time you have invested in writing will be an eye-opener for many.
Good, I was waiting for you to show up. Your style is inimitable! Thanks.To one and all, I didn’t happen upon this thread, Chrissy told me about it on: WWF.
CC, sometime next year we MUST leave our virtual existence and meet up.
Although, as Trecile knows currently I am quite reluctant to meet anyone “new”.
After a year-and-half on steroids in order to preserve life the 80 pounds gained and toothsome smile lost have made me meet and greet shy.
Methinks one reason few non whites walk may simply due to lack of happenstance exposure. That’s how all those Koreans discovered it a program in their nation. I met Brazilians who read Paulo Coelho’s book on topic. That was their entre to The Way.
Many Americans found the Camino via: Rick Steves, The Way, friends, et cetera.
But, for persons of color there maybe added bits and bobs to hinder sewing up a camino completion.
In 2000, I was teaching Sunday School at a predominantly white Episcopal parish. The rector’s wife was walking the way for her first time for her 50TH b’day. My way onto the way.
I investigated the route. Then, I decided to walk August 2001with mom insisting on going along for my protection. Or, so she said. She was 70 only walked a single orbit within the nearby mall, to my very, very professional dancer shape 39.
At that time my mom was: a college graduate from a PWI, (predominantly white institute), a divine nine (9) sorority girl. She was retired and had already traveled to Notre Dame, Vatican, Portugal and Spain, Canada, and so on.
However, however!
Her comments the first few days were interesting. From Roncesvalles to somewhere just after Pamplona she said often: “pilgrimage is for white folks, let’s leave and go to Greece”. Does every African-American feel this way? I neither know nor can speak for them. But, that’s what my well traveled mom said to me.
Once we reached Santo Domingo de la Calzada we’d worked out her bus train journey, while I walked, overcome communication problems via Internet Cafes and our Lozano guidebooks.
To this day, by the time I walked into Santiago where she’d spent a week awaiting me I don’t know who had more more fun on pilgrimage. She or I.
Also, when a white person walks into foreign predominantly white territory such as the way, concerns might revolve around fitting in, getting along, navigating the experience, budgets, can I really do this.
For me, I too have those concerns but they’re colored, pun intended, by notion of acceptance. It’s a back of brain issue but one nonetheless.
On my second camino in 2002 by day three or four I was greeted with tons of greetings and salutations from other pilgrims. The white American Jesuits with whom I was walking asked me how come so many folks already know you. I stated the obvious, I am the only person who looks like me out here.
One day those same Jesuits entered a store in a small town while I sat outside resting. Upon leaving they asked me if I had any problems on camino due to my race. I said: “no why”. They proceeded to tell me the proprietor expressed contempt towards them for walking with “la morena”.
I consider myself profoundly lucky to have had the exposure I have had. My dad insisted I attend a predominately black elementary school grades: 3-6. My mom insisted I attend the predominantly white junior high. And, my last two years of high school two races vied for predominance: Asians and Hispanics with Blacks and Whites rounding out the numbers.
And yet, even there…. There were two brainiacs at my high school a black girl and a white guy.
One day I overheard the chemistry teacher, a white guy, say to his colleague: “because of the brilliant black girl he will never again believe blacks can’t learn”. My jaw dropped. A: he’d thought blacks couldn’t learn? B: it took brilliance to show him otherwise. Sad.
These repeated experiences year in year out color travel decisions. I can’t speak for all persons of color.
Although, in general for many of us our actions regarding travel in country or without are colored by color. In the USofA blacks are still challenged when we’re at restaurants, hotels, motels. Idea being “you” should not be here.
Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
While I am yapping away. I took a few years on this platform before I made my ethnicity known. I thought long and hard. I knew I would be become the other. Did I wish that for myself. Finally, I decided this is who I am within and without with the content of my character as part of the package.
Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
Wow!...Just Wow!To one and all, I didn’t happen upon this thread, Chrissy told me about it on: WWF.
CC, sometime next year we MUST leave our virtual existence and meet up.
Although, as Trecile knows currently I am quite reluctant to meet anyone “new”.
After a year-and-half on steroids in order to preserve life the 80 pounds gained and toothsome smile lost have made me meet and greet shy.
Methinks one reason few non whites walk may simply due to lack of happenstance exposure. That’s how all those Koreans discovered it a program in their nation. I met Brazilians who read Paulo Coelho’s book on topic. That was their entre to The Way.
Many Americans found the Camino via: Rick Steves, The Way, friends, et cetera.
But, for persons of color there maybe added bits and bobs to hinder sewing up a camino completion.
In 2000, I was teaching Sunday School at a predominantly white Episcopal parish. The rector’s wife was walking the way for her first time for her 50TH b’day. My way onto the way.
I investigated the route. Then, I decided to walk August 2001with mom insisting on going along for my protection. Or, so she said. She was 70 only walked a single orbit within the nearby mall, to my very, very professional dancer shape 39.
At that time my mom was: a college graduate from a PWI, (predominantly white institute), a divine nine (9) sorority girl. She was retired and had already traveled to Notre Dame, Vatican, Portugal and Spain, Canada, and so on.
However, however!
Her comments the first few days were interesting. From Roncesvalles to somewhere just after Pamplona she said often: “pilgrimage is for white folks, let’s leave and go to Greece”. Does every African-American feel this way? I neither know nor can speak for them. But, that’s what my well traveled mom said to me.
Once we reached Santo Domingo de la Calzada we’d worked out her bus train journey, while I walked, overcame communication problems via Internet Cafes and our Lozano guidebooks.
To this day, by the time I walked into Santiago where she’d spent a week awaiting me I don’t know who had more more fun on pilgrimage. She or I.
Also, when a white person walks into foreign predominantly white territory such as the way, concerns might revolve around fitting in, getting along, navigating the experience, budgets, can I really do this.
For me, I too have those concerns but they’re colored, pun intended, by notion of acceptance. It’s a back of brain issue but one nonetheless.
On my second camino in 2002 by day three or four I was greeted with tons of greetings and salutations from other pilgrims. The white American Jesuits with whom I was walking asked me how come so many folks already know you. I stated the obvious, I am the only person who looks like me out here.
One day those same Jesuits entered a store in a small town while I sat outside resting. Upon leaving they asked me if I had any problems on camino due to my race. I said: “no why”. They proceeded to tell me the proprietor expressed contempt towards them for walking with “la morena”.
I consider myself profoundly lucky to have had the exposure I have had. My dad insisted I attend a predominately black elementary school grades: 3-6. My mom insisted I attend the predominantly white junior high. And, my last two years of high school two races vied for predominance: Asians and Hispanics with Blacks and Whites rounding out the numbers.
And yet, even there…. There were two brainiacs at my high school a black girl and a white guy.
One day I overheard the chemistry teacher, a white guy, say to his colleague: “because of the brilliant black girl he will never again believe blacks can’t learn”. My jaw dropped. A: he’d thought blacks couldn’t learn? B: it took brilliance to show him otherwise. Sad.
These repeated experiences year in year out color travel decisions. I can’t speak for all persons of color.
Although, in general for many of us our actions regarding travel in country or without are colored by color. In the USofA blacks are still challenged when we’re at restaurants, hotels, motels. Idea being “you” should not be here.
Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
While I am yapping away. I took a few years on this platform before I made my ethnicity known. I thought long and hard. I knew I would be become the other. Did I wish that for myself. Finally, I decided this is who I am within and without with the content of my character as part of the package.
Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
Wow!...Just Wow!
The post of any year!
Something worth reading and rereading.
And more importantly....understanding.
You are a treasure!
Firstly, and most importantly, thank you NYC for sharing your perspective. As a traveller of many years standing I like to think that I am always 'open and inclusive' - whatever that means - however you have most definitely given me food for thought.Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
You probably didn't walk the CF in winter then. Koreans were the largest single nationality recorded by the SJPDP pilgrim office for the first three months of this year. With Americans a close second place. But walking in January this year I estimate that about 1/3 of all the pilgrims I met were Korean but I can't recall meeting a single person from the USA. Timing seems very important.(Although I must admit, I have met both Chinese and Taiwanese however I have yet to meet Koreans on Camino !).
I have a problem: I cannot distinguish colours.Has anybody here met a person of colour on a camino?
Kirkie, you used a very good adjective to describe NYC's style of writing. (A new word for me.)Good, I was waiting for you to show up. Your style is inimitable! Thanks.
I have a problem: I cannot distinguish colours.
Only human beings.
To one and all, I didn’t happen upon this thread, Chrissy told me about it on: WWF.
CC, sometime next year we MUST leave our virtual existence and meet up.
Although, as Trecile knows currently I am quite reluctant to meet anyone “new”.
After a year-and-half on steroids in order to preserve life the 80 pounds gained and toothsome smile lost have made me meet and greet shy.
Methinks one reason few non whites walk may simply due to lack of happenstance exposure. That’s how all those Koreans discovered it a program in their nation. I met Brazilians who read Paulo Coelho’s book on topic. That was their entre to The Way.
Many Americans found the Camino via: Rick Steves, The Way, friends, et cetera.
But, for persons of color there maybe added bits and bobs to hinder sewing up a camino completion.
In 2000, I was teaching Sunday School at a predominantly white Episcopal parish. The rector’s wife was walking the way for her first time for her 50TH b’day. My way onto the way.
I investigated the route. Then, I decided to walk August 2001with mom insisting on going along for my protection. Or, so she said. She was 70 only walked a single orbit within the nearby mall, to my very, very professional dancer shape 39.
At that time my mom was: a college graduate from a PWI, (predominantly white institute), a divine nine (9) sorority girl. She was retired and had already traveled to Notre Dame, Vatican, Portugal and Spain, Canada, and so on.
However, however!
Her comments the first few days were interesting. From Roncesvalles to somewhere just after Pamplona she said often: “pilgrimage is for white folks, let’s leave and go to Greece”. Does every African-American feel this way? I neither know nor can speak for them. But, that’s what my well traveled mom said to me.
Once we reached Santo Domingo de la Calzada we’d worked out her bus train journey, while I walked, overcame communication problems via Internet Cafes and our Lozano guidebooks.
To this day, by the time I walked into Santiago where she’d spent a week awaiting me I don’t know who had more more fun on pilgrimage. She or I.
Also, when a white person walks into foreign predominantly white territory such as the way, concerns might revolve around fitting in, getting along, navigating the experience, budgets, can I really do this.
For me, I too have those concerns but they’re colored, pun intended, by notion of acceptance. It’s a back of brain issue but one nonetheless.
On my second camino in 2002 by day three or four I was greeted with tons of greetings and salutations from other pilgrims. The white American Jesuits with whom I was walking asked me how come so many folks already know you. I stated the obvious, I am the only person who looks like me out here.
One day those same Jesuits entered a store in a small town while I sat outside resting. Upon leaving they asked me if I had any problems on camino due to my race. I said: “no why”. They proceeded to tell me the proprietor expressed contempt towards them for walking with “la morena”.
I consider myself profoundly lucky to have had the exposure I have had. My dad insisted I attend a predominately black elementary school grades: 3-6. My mom insisted I attend the predominantly white junior high. And, my last two years of high school two races vied for predominance: Asians and Hispanics with Blacks and Whites rounding out the numbers.
And yet, even there…. There were two brainiacs at my high school a black girl and a white guy.
One day I overheard the chemistry teacher, a white guy, say to his colleague: “because of the brilliant black girl he will never again believe blacks can’t learn”. My jaw dropped. A: he’d thought blacks couldn’t learn? B: it took brilliance to show him otherwise. Sad.
These repeated experiences year in year out color travel decisions. I can’t speak for all persons of color.
Although, in general for many of us our actions regarding travel in country or without are colored by color. In the USofA blacks are still challenged when we’re at restaurants, hotels, motels. Idea being “you” should not be here.
Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
While I am yapping away. I took a few years on this platform before I made my ethnicity known. I thought long and hard. I knew I would be become the other. Did I wish that for myself. Finally, I decided this is who I am within and without with the content of my character as part of the package.
Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
I have a problem: I cannot distinguish colours.
Only human beings.
The second quote is an apt response to the first.I invite you to reflect how and why the misguided platitude "skin color means nothing" (link included) is really a form of erasure.
I think I understand your positive intention with this statement. You are saying you don't distinguish on the basis of colour - not that you don't see colour. You treat people as you find them, not based on their 'colour'.I have a problem: I cannot distinguish colours.
Only human beings.
Doesn't surprise me -- though walking in "reverse" towards your own early January start from SJPP late last year (from my POV), I'd say 1 in 6 were Koreans or other Asians (there were quite a few Japanese in December, and even some expat Chinese, and some ethnic Asians from the West).You probably didn't walk the CF in winter then. Koreans were the largest single nationality recorded by the SJPDP pilgrim office for the first three months of this year. With Americans a close second place. But walking in January this year I estimate that about 1/3 of all the pilgrims I met were Korean but I can't recall meeting a single person from the USA. Timing seems very important.
Doesn't surprise me -- though walking in "reverse" towards your own early January start from SJPP late last year (from my POV), I'd say 1 in 6 were Koreans or other Asians (there were quite a few Japanese in December, and even some expat Chinese, and some ethnic Asians from the West).
Most were still Spanish, which the SJPP stats will simply not reflect, as Spaniards tend to start in Spain, and not from SJPP.
I met many English-speakers last November and December, though the Americans were one minority among several.
Still, by far the largest national group of pilgrims on that Winter Camino were the Spanish. Many French too.
YMMV of course ...
Indeed.I walked winter/spring 2014 February to April.
I met quite a few Koreans. One of them told me their university break happened in winter. That’s why so many walk walk then.
Thanks so much @nycwalking for this beautifully crafted and considered post. And thanks @pelerine for starting the conversation.To one and all, I didn’t happen upon this thread, Chrissy told me about it on: WWF.
CC, sometime next year we MUST leave our virtual existence and meet up.
Although, as Trecile knows currently I am quite reluctant to meet anyone “new”.
After a year-and-half on steroids in order to preserve life the 80 pounds gained and toothsome smile lost have made me meet and greet shy.
Methinks one reason few non whites walk may simply due to lack of happenstance exposure. That’s how all those Koreans discovered it a program in their nation. I met Brazilians who read Paulo Coelho’s book on topic. That was their entre to The Way.
Many Americans found the Camino via: Rick Steves, The Way, friends, et cetera.
But, for persons of color there maybe added bits and bobs to hinder sewing up a camino completion.
In 2000, I was teaching Sunday School at a predominantly white Episcopal parish. The rector’s wife was walking the way for her first time for her 50TH b’day. My way onto the way.
I investigated the route. Then, I decided to walk August 2001with mom insisting on going along for my protection. Or, so she said. She was 70 only walked a single orbit within the nearby mall, to my very, very professional dancer shape 39.
At that time my mom was: a college graduate from a PWI, (predominantly white institute), a divine nine (9) sorority girl. She was retired and had already traveled to Notre Dame, Vatican, Portugal and Spain, Canada, and so on.
However, however!
Her comments the first few days were interesting. From Roncesvalles to somewhere just after Pamplona she said often: “pilgrimage is for white folks, let’s leave and go to Greece”. Does every African-American feel this way? I neither know nor can speak for them. But, that’s what my well traveled mom said to me.
Once we reached Santo Domingo de la Calzada we’d worked out her bus train journey, while I walked, overcame communication problems via Internet Cafes and our Lozano guidebooks.
To this day, by the time I walked into Santiago where she’d spent a week awaiting me I don’t know who had more more fun on pilgrimage. She or I.
Also, when a white person walks into foreign predominantly white territory such as the way, concerns might revolve around fitting in, getting along, navigating the experience, budgets, can I really do this.
For me, I too have those concerns but they’re colored, pun intended, by notion of acceptance. It’s a back of brain issue but one nonetheless.
On my second camino in 2002 by day three or four I was greeted with tons of greetings and salutations from other pilgrims. The white American Jesuits with whom I was walking asked me how come so many folks already know you. I stated the obvious, I am the only person who looks like me out here.
One day those same Jesuits entered a store in a small town while I sat outside resting. Upon leaving they asked me if I had any problems on camino due to my race. I said: “no why”. They proceeded to tell me the proprietor expressed contempt towards them for walking with “la morena”.
I consider myself profoundly lucky to have had the exposure I have had. My dad insisted I attend a predominately black elementary school grades: 3-6. My mom insisted I attend the predominantly white junior high. And, my last two years of high school two races vied for predominance: Asians and Hispanics with Blacks and Whites rounding out the numbers.
And yet, even there…. There were two brainiacs at my high school a black girl and a white guy.
One day I overheard the chemistry teacher, a white guy, say to his colleague: “because of the brilliant black girl he will never again believe blacks can’t learn”. My jaw dropped. A: he’d thought blacks couldn’t learn? B: it took brilliance to show him otherwise. Sad.
These repeated experiences year in year out color travel decisions. I can’t speak for all persons of color.
Although, in general for many of us our actions regarding travel in country or without are colored by color. In the USofA blacks are still challenged when we’re at restaurants, hotels, motels. Idea being “you” should not be here.
Travel anywhere means persons of color often ask themselves if I go will I be received? If not, about it, what will I do?
While I am yapping away. I took a few years on this platform before I made my ethnicity known. I thought long and hard. I knew I would be become the other. Did I wish that for myself. Finally, I decided this is who I am within and without with the content of my character as part of the package.
Anyway, back to my original statement. On forum it seems as if everybody in the world knows about this great walk.
Yet, we all know that’s not so. How many of us of all cultures, nationalities, ethnicities have met others within our non peregrino circle who have walked the way?
I hadn't even considered the needs for visas! I wonder if there will be less North Americans on Camino when the EITAS comes into being.This reminds me....passport privilege. By and large the global south does not have the same kinds of mobility as the global north. For instance, if you hold an Indonesian passport, the hoops (and costs) one has to endure in order to obtain a visa to the EU (or US) is mindboggling.
ETIAS is not a visa. It is a simple online registration that takes minutes in the vast majority of cases, and costs only a few Euros. I cannot imagine it would cause any change in the number of travelers. Many countries already have similar systems in place.I wonder if there will be less North Americans on Camino when the EITAS comes into being.
Agree!No offense to the OP but this a rather silly thread. Also I have observed and met on my Caminos pilgrims of all ethnic backgrounds, demographics, religions, gender, age group, height, weight, job variety etc.
It's quite the mix. You just gotta look.
I walked winter/spring 2014 February to April.
I met quite a few Koreans. One of them told me their university break happened in winter. That’s why so many walk walk then.
Here's a thread with that very question, and predictably the first few responses from non black members say "of course not," though I don't know how they can be so sure.I cannot remember one question from someone of a heritage that has given them a brown skin ... so maybe not just the Camino - maybe the forum too?
Are you an actor - an American tv series I think then? If so I met you in Puenta la Reina and at Eunate.
I just finished reading that entire thread (again), and there were several posts from people who had experienced some degree of racism on the Camino. It's not always (or usually) overt, but small things can add up. Kind of like "death by a thousand cuts."Thanks, @trecile, for looking that up. It's the one I was thinking of yesterday.
I don't think it is so strange for people in marginalized groups to wonder how inclusive and welcoming the camino is. I guess, for those of us who like to think that the camino is one of the more welcoming and inclusive spaces, it may seems strange. Of course it is! No one will have any problems! Some of the replies on this thread (including one from a few days ago) indicate that isn't the case and the question is reasonable. It is just our privilege that makes us so confident that it is a non-issue.
This came up before and I think it is a legitimate question for a non-white pilgrim to ask. But I would strongly suggest that it can only be answered by other non-white pilgrims. As a white person, we don't see the many ways that discrimination can be perpetrated or felt. I think it is insensitive to pretend that we can.
There are plenty enough black and brown people on the Way, we see at least a couple every week in the high season. More and more each year. A large number of them are from the USA. I met a couple from Mauritius this year, and a lady from Ivory Coast, and two sisters from St. Kitts... nice.
Different cultures, different countries, different ethnicity have different interests and hobbies. I think that's a difficult thing for a lot of people to grasp and in their minds they feel that there's some sort of nefarious reason why they don't see people from other demographics doing something that they do. It's like they just can't fathom that maybe they're just not interested in it. Perhaps the same with walking the Camino. Perhaps walking the Camino is just something that mainly certain demographics want to do.The Camino is very diverse indeed, people from so many nations and peoples but if this new meaning to diversity - white/brown skin is meant then yes, the Camino is not diverse. In fourteen years I have met only two pilgrims with originally African heritage and none from the Indian sub continent.
I find this question fascinating because I have been pondering a similar thing here in England. My hobby is metal detecting and I went to a big weekend camping rally at the end of summer, nearly a thousand of us - very diverse in the sense of participants from just about every European nation plus some Americans and Canadians.
On the Friday night in the big marquee there was a stand up comedy night .. every single comedian made jokes about the lack of diversity ... I looked around, some 600 in the marquee, and every face was a white face and I have been wondering about this ever since.
In England we have a large proportion of citizens who originally came from the West Indies, Indian sub continent, various African nations, etc. Many have been here so long that there are grand children, great grand children, so they are all British and I just assumed that we were culturally integrated .. but we obviously aren't!
Detecting isn't club, you buy a detector, go to a rally, simple as that, but in over 30 years I have only met one detectorist with brown skin (Brixton, London) - in my country born and bred Brits with African or Indian sub continent or Arab, or Chinese do not go detecting .. but I now realise almost none of them are bird watchers, hikers, ramblers, canoeists, canal boat owners, motorhome owners, campers, holiday cyclists - and I have no idea why - my point is that it isn't just the Camino -
My question is - what do the people in these mini societies within society do in their leisure time? Where are they? Where do they go to enjoy themselves, to share with others?
On Camino, and in the mentioned outdoor leisure activities in my country there would be absolutely no bar or resentment if they joined in - why would there be?
We have seen gay people on here asking if they would be "ok" on Camino - so sad that they feel the need to ask - but I cannot remember one question from someone of a heritage that has given them a brown skin ... so maybe not just the Camino - maybe the forum too?
Sorry to have gone on but I have been pondering this for a while .. could it possibly be that due to the history of white Europeans there is an inbuilt residual conditioning to avoid us? to keep to themselves? That they don't 'trust' us in some way? Or is it just a cultural thing? If so I find it terribly sad - there are only humans on this planet.
Did you pay the bill?Can I add into this again? Forgive me.
I am white English, nearly 76 now so brought up and educated in the then best Grammar school in London, 625 boys, masters wearing mortar boards and black gowns and all male and plenty of caning, in the last years of the British Empire educational system (you can imagine what we were taught about the world and the peoples in it? )- and reading the @nycwalking post again (for the fourth time) I now realise that my point of view on this subject is probably hopelessly invalid, invalid because I am white and English and old school and don't have to live with (or even notice) the small and 'insignificant' slights that people of colour have to endure every day - probably much more in the USA than elsewhere.
Here's the thing - my only racist 'insignificant' story. Many decades ago I was in Casablanca, Morocco, and I met an American guy, from LA .. he was broke (had run out of cash until the banks reopened after a holiday, no cashpoints back then) so I suggested we went for a cup of tea.
We went to a cafe with outdoor terrace and sat outside and I ordered - merely because it was my invite. The waiter seemed 'normal' but when he returned he placed a tea in a cup and saucer with tea spoon, with a small plate with a biscuit on it at my new friends' place, and to me set down a cup of tea, no saucer, no spoon, no plate with biscuit, and walked away.
My new friend didn't notice until I pointed it out to him and then he roared with laughter, it choked him up. Why? Because he was a young black guy and what the waiter had done was to treat me the way black people get treated all the time, because he and the waiter were black and I was white. He told me that this was the first time in his life that this had ever happened.
That has never left me, and, pondering more, maybe I do actually know why there are almost no metal detectorists who are black, and why so few on Camino - not because of those of we to whom it isn't important but because of all those others, Spanish and pilgrims, who would do those daily tiny slights that cut so deep.
So my thoughts. If I am wrong here I apologise.
There are plenty enough black and brown people on the Way, we see at least a couple every week in the high season. More and more each year. A large number of them are from the USA. I met a couple from Mauritius this year, and a lady from Ivory Coast, and two sisters from St. Kitts... nice.
Sorry, but since you have walked the Camino since 1977 and can only find one pic from 11 years ago pretty much substantiates the OP's point.My 2012 "Camino Family" about to set out.... A moment - and a photo - that I treasure!
(That's Anniesantiago kneeling in the foreground.)
View attachment 160745
What an attractive group of happy pilgrims! I notice the Reverend R. is the only man in that group of eight ladies.My 2012 "Camino Family" about to set out.... A moment - and a photo - that I treasure!
(That's Anniesantiago kneeling in the foreground.)
View attachment 160745
Chrissy, to be fair it does look like he just walked up and lurked without them knowing!! Sorry RevWhat an attractive group of happy pilgrims and I notice the Reverend R. is the only man in the group of eight ladies.
Then yes, you do have a problem. You're quite literally ignoring a critical aspect of a person's experience, daily life, and identity. As well as your own skin privilege and what it affords you, as a white person.I have a problem: I cannot distinguish colours.
Only human beings.
Chrissy, to be fair it does look like he just walked up and lurked without them knowing!! Sorry Rev
Yes! The "no, but where are you FROM from?" is seen as a demand for one to account for themselves, when they've already given the answer. It may not be the interrogator's intent, but the unconscious bias could feel like "to what extent do you belong?"Pilgrim friends of color have shared how it gets uncomfortable when that question is repeated. “But where are you really from?” or “Where is your family from originally?”
To clarify one portion of this -- the great majority of the blacks I did come across in Portugal last year were of Brazilian origin, and native Portuguese speakers, rather than Africans.indeed very few blacks or North Africans even among the residents of [Portugal].
Portuguese is spoken by a large number of people in Angola, Mozambique, Sao Tomé e Principe, the Cabo Verde islands and Guinea Bissau either as a first or second language. When I lived in Portugal it was fairly unusual to meet Brazilians at all but quite common to meet both black and white people from one of the former Portuguese colonies, especially in Lisbon and Oporto.To clarify one portion of this -- the great majority of the blacks I did come across in Portugal last year were of Brazilian origin, and native Portuguese speakers, rather than Africans.
Actually, everyone has an accent. If you mean foreign accent, it can still be inappropriate, especially as an opening gambit. It is totally unacceptable when it is based on someone´s appearance.the question "where are you from" is fine if the other person has an accent
And I think that almost all are urban people.I just looked at some easily available stats, by nationalities. The majority that walk the Camino are Spanish at 70%. Other UK and European 15%.
The remainder from the Americas, Asia and Pacific, Australasia. That is, places where Christianity became established.
Those from diverse origins are most likely to come from those countries. So it's likely that the Camino is as diverse as it can be.
I tend to agree, however such topics raise lot of ire and promote torrid disagreement, which is a good reason for them being excluded from this forum.It we cannot talk about that then it’s poor show.
Last paragraph 100% nails it!I often ask people where they are from, including if they have an accent I cannot identify. It has nothing to do with the colour of their skin, and certainly is not asked in order to exclude them. I ask because I am interested in them and their experiences. I am interested in people who move from one country to another, or learn different languages.
Added: Obviously, context and tone are extremely important, and one must judge when and where this question - or any other personal question - is appropriate.
Thank you for this definition.I thought l thought I would look up the OED definition of diversity… it says
“diversity” is defined as “the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc.”
It we cannot talk about that then it’s poor show.
It’s a positive thing not a negative thing.
Maybe we will reach some broad thoughts. Maybe even ways the ‘Camino ’ can buck the trend and achieve a level of diversity that other hikes cannot. Maybe it has the iconic status to do that! It wouldn’t be easy and it might not be free… who holds the budget?!!!
In fact, what we want to exclude from the forum are the insults and personal arguments. If we can discuss these topics in a respectful way, then we all learn.such topics raise lot of ire and promote torrid disagreement, which is a good reason for them being excluded from this forum.
I understand your view. Conscious of rule 3 but we are conditioned to think of diversity as controversial, ‘PC gone mad’ and so on. Understandable as many of us are bombarded with it every day via the media. It’s doesn’t have to be that way.I tend to agree, however such topics raise lot of ire and promote torrid disagreement, which is a good reason for them being excluded from this forum.
All we are discussing is that some folks feel the ‘Camino door’ may not be open to them for various reasons, how do we open that door to them, and bring them into the fold.
I have been advised that I can talk to moderators about my deleted posts. How do I do this?
It’s a great post and I will relate an experience. I am not remotely suggesting it gets anywhere near anything based on ethnicity but try this…Thank you for this definition.
In the past we also had threads about different social backgrounds, for example incomestatus. Seeing I do not want to hijack the valuable post from the OP I am not going into detail.
Especially as colour and incomestatus are not always linked ( might be in some some countries of course ).
What I just want to make clear is that as a cisgender white female , living in a country with decent social security and a job that makes me middleclass ( oh I dislike that description ) I know I am privileged.
I will never completely understand what it does to a person when you are treated different in a bar or club due to your colour. I will also not understand what it means to stand in line for a foodbank.
IMO these important themes are not about " woke " or " cancelling ".
Call me naive but I still believe we can solve lots of worldissues with respect, listening to the other , kindness, compassion and simple and honest humanity.
Humour and context can help too...
If this is too much rambling, please mods, intervene.
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