Albergue idea - group snorers together, away from non-snorers

[Barbara]

I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.

I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...

They do. It's called a private room. You too have this option if you don't wish to hear them.

 

[NorthernLight]

Wow, this really is not ok! Did anyone complain? Is there any system in place where other Albergues on the route can be warned about problematic people like this?

You may be pleased to know that this did not occur on the camino, just a dorm in Jerusalem many years ago. It was way grosser than you can imagine.

If that happened today and in Spain, I’d think it would amount to public indecency and Alertcops would be useful.

 

[Albertagirl]

They do. It's called a private room. You too have this option if you don't wish to hear them.

Getting a private room is not always a guarantee of quiet and the chance for a good night's sleep. I shall always remember one night in an inexpensive pension in Burgos. A couple returned from a late night out, clacking over the wooden floor and arguing energetically. They made so much noise that they woke the baby one of them was carrying, which began to howl. They banged the door of a nearby room and continued their conversation.
And then there was my attempt at a weekend retreat in a town near the pilgrim route. I was entertained by the couple in the next room, who were spending a weekend away energetically renewing their intimacy. Fortunately, I regarded that as a good joke on my retreat weekend, rather than an annoyance. I may be a pilgrim, but I am still present in this world.

 

[tpmchugh]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

But all snorers together increases the decibels that will then reverberate through the whole albergue lol. Snoring is just part of the Camino like hills and heat and rain it ain't going away. I snore so after my first Camino, realising how bad it was for those around me, I severely reduced the amount of wine with dinner. Alcohol makes me snore worse than usual, or so my wife says

 

[MassNative]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

Why stop there? Can't we have "Stage Towns" for snorers and different stage towns for non-snorers. Let's keep them all 10k apart!

Jim ( running for the exit! )

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Why stop there? Can't we have "Stage Towns" for snorers and different stage towns for non-snorers. Let's keep them all 10k apart!

Jim ( running for the exit! )

Absolutely not funny.

 

[MassNative]

Absolutely not funny.

Sorry, I guess I need a sarcasm emoji.

The Internet tells me it is this one:

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Sorry, I guess I need a sarcasm emoji.

The Internet tells me it is this one: View attachment 152339

Still not funny

 

[SabsP]

Still not funny

It really is tongue in cheek and humour!

 

[dougfitz]

Getting a private room is not always a guarantee of quiet and the chance for a good night's sleep.

So true. I recently stayed in a private room at a place where there was no dormitory. It was close to the common room and an adjacent private room, both sources of vigorous discussion well into the evening.

 

[MassNative]

Still not funny

Peter,

I am truly sorry my attempt at humor has rubbed you the wrong way.

I apologize.

It is a shame, as based on your comments and "likes" on this tread, we seem to be on the same page in terms of banishing snorers to alternative sleeping spaces. It's a bad idea.

I'll take the lesson that, attempts at humor in a multi-cultural forum may not be a good idea....

Peace.

Jim

 

[Pikolina]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

I totaly agree with you. It makes sense. Its difficult not to feel resentfull towards your pilgrim snoring neighbour who wakes up full of the joys of spring after a lovely long deep sleep when you have spent the night staring into the dark.

 

[dougfitz]

I totaly agree with you. It makes sense. Its difficult not to feel resentfull towards your pilgrim snoring neighbour who wakes up full of the joys of spring after a lovely long deep sleep when you have spent the night staring into the dark.

I find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.

 

[Chizuru]

Get a grip…?

It puts a new slant on that phrase, 'get a grip'!!

 

[JustJack]

I find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this topic. I’m also enjoying the contrary opinions that others are sharing. Always great to hear a wide range of thoughts on a topic like this.

 

[joecollins]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.
So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.

[NOTE: This post is intended for humor. If you don’t think it’s funny that is one thing. If you respond with a “Still though…” style post than I believe you are missing the spirit to which is intended.]

Now, let’s talk about those people who roll off the top bunk and come crashing down in the middle of the night causing a ruckus. What shall with do with them?

 

[dougfitz]

I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.
So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.

This is interesting, but probably of more value for your albergue neighbours to know each night.

 

[peregrina2000]

So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.

I think that if you want to do that, you should tell the people sleeping near you that it’s ok for you. I think it’s very bad advice to suggest to people that they routinely touch people to wake them up, gently or not, when they are snoring.

 

[trecile]

I snored here at home recently because I was flat on my back.
So, if I do that in a dorm room please gently roll me on my side and whisper “good night” in my ear. I don’t think that’s a lot to ask.

To make sure that you stay on your side when sleeping buy a large claw style hair clip and clip to to the middle of the back of the shirt that you sleep in. It will be an uncomfortable and instant reminder to roll back onto your side.

 

[Katykay]

I think that if you want to do that, you should tell the people sleeping near you that it’s ok for you. I think it’s very bad advice to suggest to people that they routinely touch people to wake them up, gently or not, when they are snoring.

I thought they were joking

 

[peregrina2000]

I thought they were joking

Oh, sorry! But I have seen that suggested before, and if you watch Álvaro’s video you will see that it happened to him twice in one night!

Just so we all aggree that unwanted physical touchings are not a good idea.

 

[Katykay]

Oh, sorry! But I have seen that suggested before, and if you watch Álvaro’s video you will see that it happened to him twice in one night!

Just so we all aggree that unwanted physical touchings are not a good idea.

Agree!!!

 

[wanderlustesq]

I stayed in a dorm once upon a time where the guy in the bunk below me masturbated quite loudly to put himself to sleep (he snored as well but that reassured me he was asleep). The entire bed creaked and squeaked in addition to his groaning. Sadly, he had to get up to use the toilet a few times in the night and every time, had to masturbate to fall asleep again.

It became funny in a bizarre way when he started yelling at the two young guys who were having a whispered conversation on the other side of the room, and then he went at it again.

If you think snoring is bad, get a grip. It could be worse.

As disgusting as this is, I’ve never laughed so hard at a post!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

This is an interesting thread, but if there were two rooms in the albergue, one for snorers and one for those who don't, how many beds should go in each room? Half and half? What if one night there were 12 snorers and 8 non-snorers in a 20 bed albergue. Wouldn't two snorers have to sleep in the non-snoring room? If the albergue is often "completo" I do not see how it can work.

What I really don't understand is all the serious complaints about albergue living. How can we expect perfect conditions when paying only €8-15/night, and knowing we will be sleeping together amongst strangers? It's like paying for a burger, but expecting a steak.

 

[VNwalking]

Still not funny

Sorry, Peter, but you may be the odd one out here. It's definitely funny.

The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that,

Odious? Unethical?
Strong words, and a bit over the top. To suggest that someone consider how their behaviour affects others is simple consideration and good manners. OTOH, to say to everyone, "If what I'm doing bothers you...well that's your problem. Deal with it." - well, a lot of what's wrong in the world comes from that attitude that constantly puts ME over you.

I'm not saying we shouldn't deal with our own reactivity. Certainly we all must do that. But it's both. Thinking of others, taking care of ourselves.

What I really don't understand is all the serious complaints about albergue living.

I think this was started as a lighthearted thread, not so much complaining but discussing something most pilgrims have struggled with at some point or another.
People don't choose to snore, but it's more likely to interfere with a good nights sleep than revelers, rustling bags, or headlamps. (Don't get me started on people who turn on lights in the middle of the night, though. )

 

[Dani7]

Who knew we could still have such a long debate on snoring . I like the fact that some things don’t change on this forum. The topics of heated debates remain the same and have for years now. This is one of them and the different thoughts and feelings make for an interesting read.

 

[dougfitz]

Odious? Unethical?
Strong words, and a bit over the top. To suggest that someone consider how their behaviour affects others is simple consideration and good manners. OTOH, to say to everyone, "If what I'm doing bothers you...well that's your problem. Deal with it." - well, a lot of what's wrong in the world comes from that attitude that constantly puts ME over you.

Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.

More, having been subjected to similar discriminatory treatment on my first Camino, I will also stand by my view that it is odious. While it might not have originally been intended to be so unpleasant, it quickly became evident that I was the only one upholding the arrangements that would allow me to get uninterrupted sleep at the same time as those in the dormitory. Later, it also became evident that the many of those who had pledged they were not snorers and remained in the dormitory were untruthful about that.

The net result was that removing one snorer from the dormitory did not eliminate the problem and one person, me, was subjected to what I can only describe as demeaning treatment by both other pilgrims and a hospitalero who had not adequately thought through what arrangements were needed so that everyone was treated equally and fairly. Overall, the hospitalero had achieved a worse outcome than if they had not interfered.

 

[C clearly]

I agree that known snorers are often treated unkindly in albergues. If a separate room happens to be available and people can be assigned in a respectful way, that is great. However, people who think they are superior and don't snore should stop being inconsiderate to those who are unfortunate enough to snore.

 

[VNwalking]

Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.

C'mon, Doug. I'm not saying anything of the sort, and you know it if you read my post. I never used the word demand, or anything even close. That was your addition.

To suggest that someone consider how their behaviour affects others is simple consideration and good manners.

I'm not saying we shouldn't deal with our own reactivity. Certainly we all must do that. But it's both. Thinking of others, taking care of ourselves.

It sounds like you had an awful experience, quite understandably coloring your views on the matter.

Bottom line is there's no excuse for entitlement on any side. Harmony in a albergue is a delicate thing, requiring considerate behaviour from everyone.

In that context, it's a special skill to let jerks be jerks without either becoming resentful victims or defensive and prickly. Boundaries, calmly and clearly stated, are essential.

I totally agree with @C clearly that people who think they don't snore should get off their high horses and treat known snorers compassionately. Everyone snores, sometimes.

And people who are the known snorers? Compassion in the other direction goes a long way, too. If you know you have the potential to keep a whole roomful of people awake, demanding they get a grip and live with it doesn't help much - even if they are being jerks. Fighting fire with fire never works. But communication and kindness do.

 

[MethaV]

With me!

And me, with ear plugs.

 

[T0M]

What's wrong with this idea?

Plenty.

When traveling, I always stay in hostels. Each is unique but in general, the albergue environment is similar all over the planet.

I think many pilgrims off the camino who would not consider a hostel in their other travels. Too bad about that. Such lodging can be just a rewarding on the camino as off the camino.

Certainly all readers on this board know ahead of time to expect snoring, wrapper-rattling, etc. For those who are bothered by this, why don't they make the same choice of lodging that they would for any traveling?

Happily, I think many who are apprehensive find that they like the hostels and welcome this whole new world of lodging options, off camino.

For those who insist on staying outside their comfort zone and complaining about sleeplessness: If earplugs, sleep aids, etc. don't work... perhaps one more remedy (which I've never heard suggested) ...walking greater distances.

 

[Sugaree]

I admit to snoring occasionally. A couple of days ago I was in the bottom bunk and a slightly younger woman was in the top bunk.

When she first walked in and saw me on the bottom bunk she gave me a bad look and I wondered what that was about?

Later that night I woke up to a thumping sound. I was a bit puzzled, then I noticed that the woman above me seemed to be kicking the bed, vigorously! So vigorously that I thought that she was going to fall out of bed.

Weird. I wondered if perhaps she had cramp but it stopped and so I drifted back to sleep.

Later, I again woke up to the thumping, drifted back to sleep and again wakened.

I lay there wondering if I should ask her if she needed help, then half drifted off to sleep and heard myself snore and immediately the thumping restarted and so I figured that this is what was happening.

I went to sleep and eventually started snoring and she would start thumping until I woke up and then the cycle repeated. Meanwhile the other people in the room were also snoring but that didn't seem to trigger her, only me snoring.

The night proceeded in this fashion. I did get some sleep but not a lot but somehow I doubt that the woman got any sleep at all. She was so focused on detecting my snoring and waking me up by jumping up and down and kicking her mattress that she must have been absolutely exhausted the next day.

If she had just ignored me we would have both got a lot more sleep.

We had a cousin stay at our house once who was an apnea snorer. He literally vibrated the floor of our bedroom. I can't imagine being in a bunk bed with him. Perhaps it was the vibration bothering her??

 

[joecollins]

I thought they were joking

They were

 

[CarenofOregon]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

How about all the stinky feet people in one room!? We’re a community… wear ear plugs and eye mask and get over it.

 

[Stivandrer]

Think of the dorms at the Albergue as 3rd class on a railway.
It is here the sounds and smells of the common man are as he lives and breathes. Or she....
Smells will be emitted, toilet doors banged in the night, snores in three part disharmony....
Think this as facts of life and draw your own conclusion......

Amen

over and out

 

[dangif123]

I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.

I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...

Agreed.

 

[Mkclancy1]

I appreciate there would be some logistical problems, and it would be voluntary, but I think there's some merit to the idea. There are some people that snore every night, all night, and do so loudly. Personally, if I was that person I'd feel very guilty any time I booked a bed in a dorm room, knowing full well that I'm about to ruin the sleep for every other person in that room. Those people should have an option for sleeping somewhere that won't ruin everyone's sleep.

I tried earplugs, but some snorers are simply too loud. All I could do in those cases was blast music in my earbuds, but once the music ended the snoring was back...

What about those who talk in their sleep, other uncontrolled bodily noises smells etc? Tossing and turning?

 

[JabbaPapa]

And a CPAP replaces snoring with a gentle white noise that actually helps many go to sleep!

CPAP disturbs my sleep whereas snorers do not.

YMMV

 

[JabbaPapa]

It's funny because when I did the Camino and overnighted in Orison, the worst snorer in the room was a woman whom I thought might bring the roof down with the depth & volume of her snores.... and she had the hide to get up in the morning and complain about the snoring!! My point is that a lot of people don't think they are snorers.

On my 2014 on the Aragonés, two extremely pushy peregrinas sternly warned me that if I dared to snore, they would aggressively poke me awake.

I just stared at them and said nothing.

Continued reading my book.

Within 15-20 minutes, both were snoring pretty loudly !!

Didn't matter -- THE absolute worst snorer I have ever encountered was my dad ; though one photo-finish second worst was at Sarria last year. Only one apart from my dad whose snores were disturbing 2 floors down ; and that was in my own isolated room.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Otherwise, I think it's a horrid idea.

Learn how to sleep within the snoring is a much better one IMO.

 

[Moyahope]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

It’s not so black and white. Some snorers are deep sleepers and others are not. Believe it or not it’s the people who don’t get their packs ready night before and or the ones that don’t even try to be quiet when getting ready that keeps people from getting sleep. Oh and let’s not forget about the late night readers or in the middle of the night potty people that have their bright phone lights on and waking others up. So you see, not so black and white. Ear plugs help!
Also, if you are a person that has sleep apnea, please bring your/a machine. It will save your life and your Camino will be much more enjoyable, especially for those that stay awake with worry or annoyance.

 

[gmarten]

Nope, just the excessively loud snorers. The other disturbances you've mentioned are minor and short-lived.

Nope. Once you are rudely awakened, you're awake. Just saying, not supporting snorers dorms. No one is required to sleep in albergues, and sensitive sleepers can choose other options like private rooms or industrial ear protection. Another one of life's many injustices.

 

[dougfitz]

Also, if you are a person that has sleep apnea, please bring your/a machine. It will save your life and your Camino will be much more enjoyable, especially for those that stay awake with worry or annoyance.

This might be true for some small number of very severe apnoea sufferers, but having checked this with my sleep physician, not using my CPAP is unlikely to have long term impacts if I return to using it when I get home. While I do carry one, it clearly isn't going to be life-threatening not to do so.

The short term impact is that I will snore and my sleep will be disrupted. I will join the other 40% of men who snore, and 25% of women who snore. Your, and others, comfort and convenience is unlikely to be affected by my decision not to bring a CPAP. Given my previous experience, I don't consider it a relevant factor in deciding whether or not to carry my CPAP.

I have said before that there is only one circumstance where I would definitely take my CPAP, and that is where my wife chose to walk as well. It would make both of us more comfortable, and we would be able to load balance the extra weight of the CPAP. I doubt the many random pilgrims who want us CPAP users to carry our machines to make their camino more enjoyable would be willing to walk with us even for a few kilometres sharing the extra load we might carry for their comfort.

I don't claim to speak for all CPAP users, but I will continue to put the position that there are members posting here that do not seem to have considered this question in any wider context than their own comfort and convenience. And I will continue to suggest this isn't the most appropriate analytical framework to use when considering the merits of their proposals to have others do things for that. Few seem to consider that it is up to them to ensure their own comfort, and that it isn't primarily a collective responsibility we all share.

 

[Mikey - camino]

On my 2014 on the Aragonés, two extremely pushy peregrinas sternly warned me that if I dared to snore, they would aggressively poke me awake.

I just stared at them and said nothing.

Continued reading my book.

Within 15-20 minutes, both were snoring pretty loudly !!

Didn't matter -- THE absolute worst snorer I have ever encountered was my dad ; though one photo-finish second worst was at Sarria last year. Only one apart from my dad whose snores were disturbing 2 floors down ; and that was in my own isolated room.

reading about your dad reminded me of my dad He snored incredibly loud. When he fell asleep on the couch he would stop snoring and stop breathing. My brother and i would sometimes get worried after a minute and wake him up. He would get up look at us and promptly fall asleep, snoring. Ha! Probably apnea, but this was the 70s.

I snore, yes. I don't think that bad, but you know the old story.

Really, I'm not sure you can expect special privilege's when your in a 15 Euro Albergue. The worst complainers don't seem to notice that most everyone else is sleeping. If your that 'sensitive' its your problem, buy better ear plugs or stay in private rooms.

 

[wanderlustesq]

Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest to another in the circumstances of an albergue dormitory 'your snoring bothers me, and I demand you pay for a private room so I can be comfortable', then I will re-consider my position on this.

More, having been subjected to similar discriminatory treatment on my first Camino, I will also stand by my view that it is odious. While it might not have originally been intended to be so unpleasant, it quickly became evident that I was the only one upholding the arrangements that would allow me to get uninterrupted sleep at the same time as those in the dormitory. Later, it also became evident that the many of those who had pledged they were not snorers and remained in the dormitory were untruthful about that.

The net result was that removing one snorer from the dormitory did not eliminate the problem and one person, me, was subjected to what I can only describe as demeaning treatment by both other pilgrims and a hospitalero who had not adequately thought through what arrangements were needed so that everyone was treated equally and fairly. Overall, the hospitalero had achieved a worse outcome than if they had not interfered.

Some people are victims. No matter what side they align with!

 

[Anamiri]

Snoring can be one of the first indications. Not all snoring is dangerous to the health, but a lot of the epic snorers in albergues have the kind of snoring where you stop breathing. I feel sorry for them rather than condemning them...

My husband is one of those. He now uses a Cpap, but lived in denial of his epic snoring for years (more then 40 years) . He claimed that everyone was exaggerating.
Snoring so bad, we've been evicted from campgrounds. Eventually he was forced by a dramatic health issue to seek diagnosis and treatment from a sleep clinic.
That transformed all our lives, not just his. The Cpap means that everyone in the house gets some sleep - and the diagnosis also alerted other family members to their risk.

 

[Paulene]

...and a separate room for the early morning bag rustlers, and those who like to walk in the dark and disturb everyone when they leave, and those who come back late a little merry, and those that go to the loo in the middle of the night.....will be one heck of an Alberque !

Don't forget the boisterous midnight farters

 

[MarkyD]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

Could this be a question to create responses for the fun of it?
If so, here we go. Maybe we should also consider separating the following from those who demand peace and quiet: bag rustlers, early risers, mobile phone light users, mobile phone alarm users, smelly feet, farters and people who get up to go to the toilet at night.
It's all a part of the pilgrim experience, it's not as if you have to get up in the morning and look after children, go to work etc. There are also earplugs and eyemasks that can be used without too much difficulty.

 

[dick bird]

Could this be a question to create responses for the fun of it?
If so, here we go. Maybe we should also consider separating the following from those who demand peace and quiet: bag rustlers, early risers, mobile phone light users, mobile phone alarm users, smelly feet, farters and people who get up to go to the toilet at night.
It's all a part of the pilgrim experience, it's not as if you have to get up in the morning and look after children, go to work etc. There are also earplugs and eyemasks that can be used without too much difficulty.

If we have a special room for each category of person who makes a noise or smell or sight that offends other people, we would end up with private rooms for every body. Errr, right. As you were!

 

[rosiemc75]

I would have loved to come across an albergue that grouped pilgrims according to their whether or not they snore. Snorers all go in one room, non-snorers in another. What's wrong with this idea?

Is that not segregation??
Who is going to point the finger at someone who snores?
Maybe people who are 'offended' by someone snoring should go elsewhere?

 

[Bristle Boy]

Is that not segregation??
Who is going to point the finger at someone who snores?
Maybe people who are 'offended' by someone snoring should go elsewhere?

If they go elsewhere....is this not segregation?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

If we have a special room for each category of person who makes a noise or smell or sight that offends other people, we would end up with private rooms for every body. Errr, right. As you were!

That's called a hotel.

 

[thejoker]

I snore when I'm exhausted and I was absolutely exhausted in Roncesvalles last night. I am sure the Polish couple in the same quad as well as the pilgrims in the neighboring quads would have entirely agreed with the concept of this thread title last night. I did apologize to the Polish couple and they were incredibly polite about it, but I was sorry it took them until just after 3 am to go in search of ear plugs. On the upside, from today onwards, I've been able to book private rooms.

 

[JifMoose]

Not really. If you can propose a framework in which it is ethical for one individual to suggest...

Utilitarianism would suggest exactly that. Deontology and virtue ethics you could argue either way.
[I have no real view of snoring in Albergues ... but it always very difficult to rely on meta-ethics to rule any given social more in or out of bounds]

 

[dougfitz]

Utilitarianism would suggest exactly that.

From whose perspective? Certainly not that of any snorer.

 

[JifMoose]

From whose perspective? Certainly not that of any snorer.

Off topic I know, but meta-ethics is one of my hobbies so it's fun for me to think about these things
The point of utilitarianism, and consequentialism more generally, is that it is [supposed to be] neutral with regard to point-of-view. The method is to maximise "utility" across the entire outcome i.e. the consequences of an action, rather than the justifiability of an action in terms of "rules" [deontology] or "character" [virtue ethics].
Now, how utility is weighted - the "utilitarian calculus" - will of course be contested. But as an ethical framework it makes very clear how it can be ethically right for an individual to make sacrifices - or be compelled to make sacrifices! - for the greater benefit of others.
Utilitarianism is probably the most worked-out "ethical framework" in moral philosophy. Naturally there countless objections to it (it there weren't, it would be "solved" and would cease to be philosophy). I'm more a Virtue Ethics man myself (though not sure either this nor deontology really helps you here).
All of which probably reinforces the main point - if you want to make objections based on social mores, you probably won't make much headway relying upon meta-ethical frameworks. They don't really tell you what is right and wrong per se - rather they give you a language to meaningfully talk about them.

 

[JifMoose]

Actually, just for fun it's interesting (to me at least - feel free to tell me to can it!) to see if we can make the argument either way based on the major ethical frameworks. I think this really does show how these provide a clear language to express differences:

• I think many in favour of excluding snorers are making a utilitarian argument. When others raise the (good!) objection that snorers can't help it, it isn't intentional, this draws out the key consequentialist point that it's not intentions that matter there, but outcomes. Utilitarianism is also very concerned with (relative) harms. In this case the harms are minor, but arguably there is some harm in depriving a roomful of people of sleep on one hand, and a little (hurt feelings, cost) on the other. Of course the calculus can always be pressed hard one way in any thought experiment, but in general you have to go quite a long way before it would become convincing that the loss of sleep utility becomes less important. Others have raised another great point, which is that snorers may not be aware or have serious underlying medical conditions. This actually might count in favour in a utilitarian sense - if the snorer is made aware of, and gets treatment, for their medical issues that surely increases utility?
• Deontology is tricky here. Fancy word, but basically here we try to act as if all our actions are universal rules that apply to anyone. Could you, after Kant, create a universal maxim that that excluding/not excluding snorers that we'd agree is right? Tricky. Perhaps we'd agree on something like "discriminating based on unintentional behaviour is wrong". Like all Kantian "rights", this might turn out to be more elastic than we'd hope. There might be lots of behaviours that I might unintentionally perform that would be offensive to others and we might feel it right for them to intervene. What if we substitute behaviours that cannot be changed? Would we still want to create a universal maxim that they should be tolerated? Some good posters are definitely making Kantian points here (something like: do unto others as you would like them to do unto you).
• Virtue ethics probably gives us the best argument. So this is where we explicitly exclude consequences, and instead look at actions in isolation to see if they are the result of good character. The trickiest thing here is what counts as virtues will be very contestable. But we could certainly make a good case for not excluding snorers. Something like: it is virtuous to be tolerant, not to make others feel uncomfortable, not to exclude. It maybe even be virtuous explicitly to suffer (while it decreases utility!), especially in the context of a pilgrimage. So definitely some mileage there. I suspect many here are making good virtue-ethical arguments based on the improvement of character. On the other hand, very easy to turn around and say - you have a better character if you voluntarily seclude yourself to spare a roomful of others of your snoring.
• Interesting to think about non-universal forms of ethics as mentioned. This probably gets you nowhere - you're defending the rights of a minority against a minority (often a virtuous thing to do!), and delimited forms of ethics (at the extremes, egoism, amoralism or perspectivism) will likely lead to a situation of majority rule.

My conclusion: ethical frameworks will not make this decision for us!

 

[DwainS]

Just finished my first Camino Frances June 25. Stayed in dormitory rooms 10 days out of my 32 days to reach Santiago. I was prepared for the snorers. Not with earplugs but mentally. Earplugs bother my ears so I just prepared myself mentally for the snorers, and there were snorers. They did wake me a few times but I held no animosity toward them. Some I had dinner with the next night. They were great people and probably could not afford private rooms. Now that being said, snorers made my private rooms so much sweeter. I just tried not to let the things I could not control ruin my camino and it turned out fantastic. So snorers, I hope to do camino Portuguese next year, maybe I'll meet and have dinner with a few of you.

 

[joeboybollo]

I find it very disappointing that anyone who is engaging in this thread at this stage thinks that this was a good idea. I have already expressed my thoughts on this many times on this forum. @Pikolina, you might want to read why I think this is an odious suggestion here in this thread. The short version is that I think it is completely unethical to suggest someone else take any action they might not wish to undertake to ensure your comfort. You, and you alone, are responsible for that, and if you find it that uncomfortable sharing an albergue dormitory with others who might snore, it is up to you to move, not them.

For sure,in my opinion

 

[hecate105]

I spent a couple of weeks on the Portuguese with extreme toothache, so did not sleep at all. I can vouch that EVERYONE snores at some point of the night! Everyone farts too... But the rustling, headtorch-flashing doorbanging and loud whispering seem to be chosen activities....

 

[dougfitz]

But as an ethical framework it makes very clear how it can be ethically right for an individual to make sacrifices - or be compelled to make sacrifices! - for the greater benefit of others.

Indeed, and it is used to justify many of the measures that are taken at by governments in particular at some societal level. Tax laws that discriminate based on level of income might be the most obvious example of some people paying more for the overall benefit for society in the redistribution of income through any welfare payments it enables. There is no such equivalence to government in the specific case we are discussing. Rather, there are a few vocal proponents who seem to think that it is a good idea to banish snorers for their own comfort with little consideration for the wider ramifications for that.

In this case the harms are minor, but arguably there is some harm in depriving a roomful of people of sleep on one hand, and a little (hurt feelings, cost) on the other.

That is such a massive understatement of the harms that it almost looks like you are proposing this statement as a strawman, rather than make any realistic assessment of the loss of utility. No snorer deprives a roomful of people from sleep. One would need to test the proposition that even those few who claim to have had no sleep are actually being realistic about such claims. It always appears to me that, while they might have this impression, it is potentially a massive overstatement of what actually happened. More, the effect of just separating those who know they snore is likely to be quite minimal. As others have more eloquently expressed than I will now, this will still leave those who either don't know or aren't prepared to admit that they snore.

On the other hand, you have the cost of either maintaining separate rooms for snorers for which one might expect to pay premium, either as a charge for a private room or a general increase in the cost of running an albergue that needs to be recovered from everyone.

@JifMoose, it is not clear whether you have done a Camino, and whether your position here is borne of a practical understanding of the matter, or this is just some intellectual discussion for you. The latter would explain why you seem to be able to so tritely dismiss one side of the utilitarian analysis and show little understanding of whether the other is overstating their case.

I come back to my position, which is that those who achieve any benefit from separating themselves from the snorers ought to be the ones that pay for this. It is not a privilege owed to them in albergue dormitory rooms, but one they should pay for by using a private room.

 

[VNwalking]

No snorer deprives a roomful of people from sleep

I wouldn't be so sure of yourself there, Doug.
I've experienced that more than once.

Rather, there are a few vocal proponents who seem to think that it is a good idea to banish snorers for their own comfort with little consideration for the wider ramifications for that.

You seem to be one of the more vocal people here, @dougfitz, and my impression is that you're still lugging around a grievance about how you've been treated.

Wrap as many fancy words and concepts around all of this as you like, there's no getting away from a disparity of negative effects of Olympic snoring:

• If by voluntarily taking a single room , the snoret DOESN'T deprive 8 other equally exhausted people of sleep, everybody wins. Noone is annoyed, everyone gets rest.
• OTOH, If someone who can afford a single room insists on sleeping in a dorm anyway when other options are available, potentially everyone else is deprived of sleep - one snorer wins, and 4/8/10...however many others are in the room lose. Which may explain the pushback you got, Doug.

Of course nobody decides to snore.
But as some on this thread have already said - if someone knows they snore loudly, and can afford it, choosing a solo sleeping space makes everyone happy. It's not 'banishment,' it's simply thinking of others. It goes without saying that needs to go oth ways, but it may not have occurred to you that thinking of others can be a deeply joyful thing.

those who achieve any benefit from separating themselves from the snorers ought to be the ones that pay for this. It is not a privilege owed to them in albergue dormitory rooms, but one they should pay for by using a private room.

Who pays for that seems to be the nub of the issue for you, Doug. What's wrong with magnanimity, if it's possible and affordable? If not it's a moot point.

There's such a thing as community spirit (which is what willingly - perhaps happily - engages in altrusm so that many others are comfortable) versus rigid individualism (which is what resents paying so that many others are comfortable). To be truthful, I have found the community-minded side to be a much happier place to live from.

 

[Barbara]

I wonder if some sound deadening material on walls and ceilings would actually be more helpful? Some dorm rooms seem to amplify sound rather well.

 

[VNwalking]

I wonder if some sound deadening material on walls and ceilings would actually be more helpful? Some dorm rooms seem to amplify sound rather well.

Focusing so much on the people involved, we never thought of this, and it's a good idea.
Or sound insolated pods?

 

[Former member 104756]

Actually, just for fun it's interesting (to me at least - feel free to tell me to can it!) to see if we can make the argument either way based on the major ethical frameworks. I think this really does show how these provide a clear language to express differences:

Hi @JifMoose

I’ve dipped into this thread from time to time - after the first 50 or so posts I wondered what more needed to be said But had the discussion ended earlier i would not have had the benefit of reading your post. I have an interest in ethical frameworks and applied ethics and you have offered a thoughtful and beautifully written example to apply to this topic. In my own life when I think about some of the issues we face, particularly in the area of social justice and the rights of the few and the many, I often try to apply the ‘veil of ignorance’ to inform my thinking, along the lines of - If I didn’t know my own circumstances, what would I think was just, fair etc. Anyhoo, my words are clumsy, but I think you will understand what I am trying to say. In any case, I very much appreciated you taking the time to make this contribution. Thank you

 

[VNwalking]

often try to apply the ‘veil of ignorance’ to inform my thinking, along the lines of - If I didn’t know my own circumstances, what would I think was just, fair etc.

I'm slow, sorry.
Meaning, you complete remove yourself from the equation, looking at it impartiality as an outside observer? Is that what you mean, @Pelerina?
If so, that sounds like a wonderful way to access balance and equanimity. And so wise action.

 

[Former member 104756]

I'm slow, sorry.
Meaning, you complete remove yourself from the equation, looking at it impartiality as an outside observer? Is that what you mean, @Pelerina?
If so, that sounds like a wonderful way to access balance and equanimity. And so wise action.

Hi VN. I don’t describe it well. But, yes, it’s the idea of taking yourself out of the equation. One often cited example is how would you design a taxation system if you didn’t know where you fell on the wealth and income scale.

I find it a helpful idea. It’s well referenced on the world wide webamajig. It has two underlying principles - the liberty principle and the difference principle Here's some info.

Veil of Ignorance - Ethics Unwrapped

The Veil of Ignorance is a device for helping people more fairly envision a fair society by pretending that they are ignorant of their personal circumstances.

ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu

‘Philosopher John Rawls suggests that we should imagine we sit behind a veil of ignorance that keeps us from knowing who we are and identifying with our personal circumstances. By being ignorant of our circumstances, we can more objectively consider how societies should operate.’

Sorry for the diversion, but it is something that I think can be useful in considering all sorts of topics that affect 'communities'. So, thank you again to @JifMoose for his earlier post on ethical frameworks.

 

[rosiemc75]

If they go elsewhere....is this not segregation?

No

 

[Moyahope]

This might be true for some small number of very severe apnoea sufferers, but having checked this with my sleep physician, not using my CPAP is unlikely to have long term impacts if I return to using it when I get home. While I do carry one, it clearly isn't going to be life-threatening not to do so.

The short term impact is that I will snore and my sleep will be disrupted. I will join the other 40% of men who snore, and 25% of women who snore. Your, and others, comfort and convenience is unlikely to be affected by my decision not to bring a CPAP. Given my previous experience, I don't consider it a relevant factor in deciding whether or not to carry my CPAP.

I have said before that there is only one circumstance where I would definitely take my CPAP, and that is where my wife chose to walk as well. It would make both of us more comfortable, and we would be able to load balance the extra weight of the CPAP. I doubt the many random pilgrims who want us CPAP users to carry our machines to make their camino more enjoyable would be willing to walk with us even for a few kilometres sharing the extra load we might carry for their comfort.

I don't claim to speak for all CPAP users, but I will continue to put the position that there are members posting here that do not seem to have considered this question in any wider context than their own comfort and convenience. And I will continue to suggest this isn't the most appropriate analytical framework to use when considering the merits of their proposals to have others do things for that. Few seem to consider that it is up to them to ensure their own comfort, and that it isn't primarily a collective responsibility we all share.

Wow…it was just a friendly suggestion. I really don’t care. It’s your life and your comfort. It Doesn’t affect me one bit. Just informing those that weren’t aware at the ease of carrying one, if they were considering not walking because of it.
This may sound harsh but it’s just a little unnerving how a person could write a book on a small suggestion to the masses. That’s what this forum is for…sharing information that may help even one person.

 

[peregrina2000]

I admit that I have not been following this thread too closely, but I think that it’s gotten personal and a bit sharp. I think it’s time to close since we’re at the “more heat than light” stage here.