Perambulating Griffin
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- 2022
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But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...
Indeed. And yet the phrase "counsel of perfection" keeps springing to mind. It looks very likely that half a million people will claim a Compostela this year. Others like myself will walk at least part of a Camino without being counted in those statistics. When the numbers are so large and drawn from such a diverse background then expecting unanimity on anything is a losing battle. In reality I think that your practice of creating physical distance between yourself and the most egregious specimens of obnoxious speech or behaviour is the best that you can reasonably expect to achieve. I have occasionally added 10km or more to my day to leave some prize specimen well behind me.But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...
I'm sorry -- but no. I just saw a post on the forum in which someone made a completely rude, uncalled-for snark about a gender neutral pronoun for a third party.Of course hatred and hostility is a bad thing anywhere, not just on the Camino, but everyone is different. We humans are perfectly imperfect and that's the way we're supposed to be. To be honest your post is a bit self righteous and your opinion on what's offensive may not be shared by every pilgrim. A wee bit of casting the first stone
Absolutely!Absolutely! –and how much nicer if they started training on those virtues while still at home…
I see your effort to settle the waters and compromise and I wish that it worked, but it doesn't. I am going to put forward that it's time for the social dinosaurs to rethink or go extinct.You did the right thing.
But I also think we need to avoid, if possible, taking refuge in our own little bubble where everyone thinks the same way. Within limits, of course! But you can try to convince others to be more inclusive. Sometimes with a little empathy it is quite impressive how you can get people who think differently to reconsider their views. And we ours, who knows...
I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.I see your effort to settle the waters and compromise and I wish that it worked, but it doesn't. I am going to put forward that it's time for the social dinosaurs to rethink or go extinct.
As the one that the ex-military guy was going to *punch* because after he had finished with his paranoid hallucinations about the young Israeli couple, he moved on to *me*... it's not up to me to teach a sexist misogynist to do better. Fortunately, the general group rallied around me, kept me safe... and Mr. "I hate everyone who isn't a white dude like me" left the trail around Burgos as far as anyone knew. But the days from SJPdP to Estella had *someone* from a marginalised group in his sites at any given time and *his camino* was actively getting in the way of a lot of other people's camino efforts.
I did put up with the moaning that seemed fashionable at the time, on the same first camino I undertook, for men of a certain age to bemoan that their workplaces were no longer a hunting ground for sex. Giant eye-roll, and moving right along because they were all about to retire if not already. Still: annoying not to be able to get away on my mobile retreat from what already plagued daily life as a mid-career professional at that point.
It isn't asking much for people who express snark at things not hurting them to stop it. (Because really? Really? one can't cope with the fact that someone uses a non-specific pronoun? It's causing so much consternation that one has to make fun of such people by snarking on this very forum? And it's the person with the different pronoun, who is at risk of physical violence, who has to suck it up?).
Comments about race and ethnicity can put fear into people who either don't appear as the speaker expects a mixed-race person to appear (and so they blab their nasty opinions)... but it's up to the victims to have empathy for the bigots and assailants?
I have spent far too many decades of my nearly 60 years compromising to the whims of the powerful. I do not want it for future generations, nor for myself any longer, and not least of all when on *pilgrimage* (which is what it is for me).
It's not a big request: don't be an entitled, bigot. If you're actually a nice person with an unexamined bias, then when it's pointed out as annoying/harmful... whatever, then the adult response isn't to stomp one's feet about 'politically correct speech' (bla bla blah). The adult thing to do is say, "I'd never realised X, and I will try to do better..."
We see often enough that women on caminos are targeted by men who seem not to be able to hold on to their trousers and undergarments... and the forum is generally, quite rightly, there to support the women and advise on what can be done. Yet there is resistance to hearing that sexism, racism, homo-and-trans hostility, and predatory attitudes expressed by other walkers should just be accepted with grace?
If it's too big a request to leave one's prejudices and bigotry behind to the best that one can, maybe all the training for camino won't do much good.
I walked twice with my very obviously nonbinary child and found zero open hostility toward them or us. Sure, there were a few people who might have looked at them a bit longer, either not used to seeing a nonbinary person or trying to figure out if they were either male or female, but never really with disgust or anger. So, I really wouldn't worry about walking with your kid. Seriously. And while we've had a very lengthy thread recently on being Black on the Camino, and what that entails, I don't recall anyone commenting that they were subject to or had seen open hostility (not that there weren't plenty of microaggressions).As the parent to someone who is gender non-conforming, and as a "cute" woman who get snarked at for not having a feminine voice, snark about pronouns is actually *frightening*. Is that person going to shove me off a path? Or my kid should I choose to take *THEM*?
Um... wow.I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!
I don't think she's tarring all men with the same brush.I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!
It depends... and I've seen it overtake a group from the one rare person who kept popping off at the innocent.I walked twice with my very obviously nonbinary childand found zero open hostility toward them or us. Sure, there were a few people who might have looked at them a bit longer, either not used to seeing a nonbinary person or trying to figure out if they were either male or female, but never really with disgust or anger. So, I really wouldn't worry about walking with your kid. Seriously. And while we've had a very lengthy thread recently on being Black on the Camino, and what that entails, I don't recall anyone commenting that they were subject to or had seen open hostility (not that there weren't plenty of microaggressions).
In short, yes, all kinds of people walk the Camino, and I'm sure there are misogynists, racists and homophobes among them, its been my experience that outward displays of these traits are rare.
The camino for many is an artificial world of butterflies, christmas cookies and joyous whatever. For others it is just a microcosm of what the world looks like. I think that this is magnified because there are so many that are so "joyous" to be there. Personally some of these people can be annoying to me so like the assh**ls I keep my distance. No matter what we "wish" for people are still going to come as who they are before they arrive. They may hid it some but things will always get so stressful their true colors become apparent.Do not bring hatred or hostility in your kit.
Any of us will carry an unknown bias (that's how it works)... but phobias and hostilities about sex/gender... don't bring that with you.
Don't bring sexism, misogyny, ageism, racism, ethnocentrism etc. on the camino. Remember that for any given walker the camino may be their first opportunity to get away from the prejudices that they endure at home, and while the camino is part of the real world, it would be nice if those of us out there on camino were doing our best not to impose more of the worst...
I've encountered all of this out there or witnessed it being directed at others.
From the "Spanish cultural practice X is getting in my way..." to blatant hostilities of all stripes... put in enough miles and it becomes common to encounter problems in these attitudes.
As a solo walker, small person, I have walked on to get away from a newly divorced man who had a hate on for every woman, and for a lovely young Israeli couple... I have walked on from people with age-based hostilities, and I have removed myself from groups of people speculating and snarking about queer festivals in Spain in the summer.
But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them...
I think this writer is addressing a fairly specific group of men, not “all men.” Trying to make these comments about “all men” is a way to dismiss what is being said.I think you should stop tarring all men with the same brush. Last year on my first Camino, I enjoyed the company of all females, without resorting to misogynistic comments or actions. That pleasant interaction was recognised and reciprocated.
So please just lighten up, and perhaps post a few positive, humorous anecdotes on men!
Go well!
Tried that... the compassion approach. The group who exited on the same day from the same albergue in SJPdP tried reassurances that none of the plotting and other things he accused the young couple of had actually happened... he stuck to his assertions and so we just tried to keep him away from the young folk until they put miles and miles between us olds and them after Pamplona...I think it's also important to not stigmatize people with mental health issues. The ex-military guy, heavily medicated, shouldn't be judged on his behavior he may not be able to control. The fact he was hallucinating indicates to me he was probably on some pretty powerful drugs. Excluding him for things said you find offensive doesn't help him in any way. Perhaps this soldier suffered from PTSD, and warranted some compassion and sympathy rather than judgement. Sometimes you have to look beyond the surface and seek understanding. I taught kids with behavioral problems for 20 years and found it helpful to try and understand why the individuals behavior made sense to the individual. Even if their behavior was offensive to some.
I tend to be in very much agreement with you here. Yet I suspect we have different views on the subject.No matter what we "wish" for people are still going to come as who they are before they arrive. They may hid it some but things will always get so stressful their true colors become apparent.
In posts I write and in life at times I can appear and sound pretty cynical. I think it comes from my upbringing in a pretty tough working class neighborhood in the Bronx and looking around at the utter stupidity of people worldwide. It is a pandemic of thought. But I digress.I tend to be in very much agreement with you here. Yet I suspect we have different views on the subject.
I absolutely think that a Camino is a place where people tend to be their authentic self. Partly, this is because, as you say, their true colours become apparent under stress. Partly it is because they have left the roles, responsibilities, and expectations at home and are free to just be themselves.
Personally, I think that is one of the joys of the Camino. It is an opportunity to see how good most folks are when they can just be themselves. I find I tend to like other pilgrims. But maybe I live in a world of butterflies, christmas cookies (or hamentashen), and whatever.
So true.Let me put it differently: maybe you will carry your prejudices anyway, but the camino is not an opportunity to blast the marginalised.
I understand your wish to defend the OP but the final lines sums up the OPs view "But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them..." If all the people. No attempt to address a fairly specific group of men. The OP started by dictating what people must do (That never goes down well) then argued a reasonable case but then added that line at the end so it is fair to say "tarring all with the same brush"I think this writer is addressing a fairly specific group of men, not “all men.” Trying to make these comments about “all men” is a way to dismiss what is being said.
I'm afraid you have not understood the difference between *all people* and a *specific set of examples* in the original post.I understand your wish to defend the OP but the final lines sums up the OPs view "But how much nicer it would be if all the people on camino were actively working to leave behind their hostilities to those not like them..." If all the people. No attempt to address a fairly specific group of men. The OP started by dictating what people must do (That never goes down well) then argued a reasonable case but then added that line at the end so it is fair to say "tarring all with the same brush"
I think one of the lessons of this is that we need not to judge the lived experiences of others by our own lived experience, especially when it comes to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.I think the point some people are making is that it isn't what you say, but how you say it.
For example, you say you were surprised and dismayed to encounter bigotry on the Camino. I will assume that's before your first Camino. Others that have walked the Camino say that wasn't their experience. You say saying that is dismissive of the bigotry you experienced, and it basically means "the suffering of others is no concern of mine."
But I think it's quite possible that, like you before walking the Camino, they, after experiencing the Camino, are surprised at what you went through. Possibly because it contradicts their lived experience. In no way would I conclude it means they don't care about the suffering of others. It could just mean that wasn't their experience.
I think everyone though, agrees with your original idea of people not being racist etc. and not bringing it with them.
Indeed. This is very true.If *all people* put the effort into avoiding being jerks and less energy into defending jerks, things would be better.
The lighter the pack the more pleasant the walk, so leave all the extra baggage at home.I can understand the OP's adverse reaction to the type of toxic person she was describing. I would add, however, that the resultant sense of fear or disgust should be aimed more at the likelihood that he is simply unhinged (further raising the issue as to where the threshold between unpleasant personality and mental illness lies) and less on that person's socio-poltical beliefs.
Regarding the latter, I often feel repelled by some proponents of 'progressive' ideology, not because I am staunchly conservative (far from it) but because (yes, even on the Camino) some become quite aggressive in their advocacy, wrongly assuming that those who don't subscribe to a very narrow set of ideological touchstones are ipso facto biased, hateful, or 'dinosaurs', with the further implication that such people are unelightened or unaware of the associated discourses and therefore need to be 'educated', often imparted in a very patronizing manner. At its worst, non-subscribers become vulnerable to the litany of '---ist' epithets that can punctuate such encounters.
One should keep in mind that there is a constant danger of hypocrisy when assuming the mantle of compasstion and tolerance for oneself and ones own socio-poltical stances. How so? Rather than appreciating a true diversity of perspectives, 'tolerance' or 'inclusion' often become, ironically, mere euphemisms for, 'people who have the exact same beliefs and values as I do', to the exclusion of, and intolerance towards, any deviation from this orthodoxy.
In short, it is not the belief system that bothers me. I'm quite willing to listen. Rather, my wish to extricate myself from interactions with such people will be based on the personality or manner in which it is conveyed.
Perambulating Griffin posted about bigotry, hatred, hostility. As far as I've seen, the above quote was the first mention of lewd conduct.I have held back from commenting on this thread but the oft repeated post based on personal experience in which testimony is given that the forum member has never seen or encountered such instances as that experienced by @Perambulating Griffin has troubled me. I would assume that the instances of male pilgrims coming across a man with his trousers down and his private parts in his hand are few and far between.
@WGroleau, yes it was the first mention, but if you read the whole of my post you will (perhaps) understand it attempted to highlight factors that contribute to some walkers of the Camino writing that they have never witnessed, or been on the receiving end of bad actions.Perambulating Griffin posted about bigotry, hatred, hostility. As far as I've seen, the above quote was the first mention of lewd conduct.
Indeed, but @Perambulating Griffin then reacted to some of the responses to her original post & it was in light of those subsequent posts that I wrote what I did. As we know from years of experience of following forum threads, there is can be a tendency to move away from the main topic: on serious matters because of the complexities of the issues raised or triggered, on lighter discussions because people want to be playful. I leave it to the moderators to determine whether or not my contributions go ‘off piste’.@SEB2, I understand the point that you are making, namely that not every pilgrim witnesses bad and even abysmal behaviour.
However, I think that the main topic of the thread is how pilgrims interact with each other and how they behave towards other pilgrims, and not what happens between pilgrims and persons who live along the Caminos, i.e. how (very few) local men behave towards peregrinas.
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