A cunning plan! - no bugs, no crowds, no refugio fees ...

[Anonymous]

I was out today standing still and thinking soft to allow three deer to move around at the other end of a field I was in, in a beautiful valley in the West country of England today and was mulling over ways of being on the Frances in mid-summer and then had the thought that night time is only four or five hours long ... and refugios are mainly content for pilgrims to wash there if passing through .. and I thought - well, why not do the night shift?

If I walked at night, had breakfast and slept under my umbrella, or in a church porch, then strolled on a bit, then slept again, then strolled to a village and had something to eat and perhaps a wash and then just stroll through the night.

No crowds, no costs except food, no midday walking in the heat, no bed bugs!! - countless hours and hours of solitude ....
now I know the downside of heavy overcast nights and therefore the chance of losing the Way - but vast sections of the Frances you could walk blindfolded (almost) and starlit nights - !! - moonlit nights !!
The trick is not to switch on a torch when out in starlight. As if you adjust starlight is quite bright enough to walk under.

So - taking away the odd difficult section or heavy overcast/rain ... what are the cons ? has anyone on here done it by night?

For me, apart from the early sections of spain I think I could have done most of it under a starfield ... the meditative solitude does call ...

 

[Pablo2007]

But it would be scary .....

A friend of mine did a long walk here in Australia that is almost all bush (Forrest wilderness etc) there are only a few town in the whole 800 or so kilometers so they had to carry food water fuel etc. There are "huts" along the way but there offer just a roof over your head, they basically look like just a big bus shelter. Anyway Brian had a plan to walk it at night that way they would have the huts to themselves during the day, the other thing was that when they came back and people asked "How was it?" he could then say "Dunno it was dark, couldn't see anything"

Needless to say he didn't do it.

Your plan sounds good but I would miss the "connection" with other like minded people. Sometimes just a smile or a "buen Camino is enough to lift the spirits.

Pablo

 

[Dave]

My last time on the Camino Frances, my friends and I had a few days where we hiked in the morning, settled in to a nice town for the afternoon and evening, and then started walking again shortly before darkness set. We crashed around 2am.

It was, in all cases, awesome. Normal pilgrim hours don't mesh terribly well with life in Spain, where things don't really get started until around 10pm - when most albergues shut down. I remember one night when we left Ponferrada around 9pm. Every village along the way was open and active. I think we arrived in Cacabelos around 1am, where the streets were still fairly busy and we had a great tortilla espanola. Another night, we reached Sarria around midnight and were able to order dinner.

I found it to be a nice way to break up the routine a little bit. Wouldn't want to do it every night - you'd miss out on the camaraderie of the trail being alone all the time - but I would definitely do it a few times.

If you don't feel comfortable sleeping out (I just unrolled my poncho on some grass under a tree), or are unsure of the route, it might not be the best choice though.

 

[Arn]

When I was making preparations to do the AT (Appalachian Trail 2, 164 miles) I often walked under a new moon and found it very relaxing. That said, the Camino is a connection of town to town...there are few stages where civilization isn't around the next Bar.

If you want the night experience...take it! The Camino will decide if it's right for you!

Buen is that really cheese in the moon Camino,

Arn

 

[sillydoll]

Br David - with a bit of pre planning it should be an awesome walkk.
You could plan the timing of your walk using the Godesalco.com/plan website which gives you lunar illumination as well as sunrise and susnset times.
Buy two headlamps - one to go around your waist and one on your head. (Or buy a pair of night goggles!)
Carry one of those bivvy-bag sleeping bags so that if you do feel tired on your feet you can lie down and snooze for a while.
There are lots of links to Hiking at Night on the Internet if you feel you need to research your idea further. (And here is a story about a blind pilgrim on the camino - if he could do it so can we!)

 

[Rebekah Scott]

It is a very cool idea. Except if there are several days and nights of rain in a row and all your stuff got wet.

And I wonder how the albergues will deal with people drifting in and out to use the showers and toilets "for free." At least one or two are going to mistake you for a hobo and tell you they are not a homeless shelter or a public convenience, so it would be a good idea to offer a token donativo for their services.

Reb.

 

[sillydoll]

Reb, I was under the impression that the albergues allowed pilgrims with credentials who were camping or moving on to use their facilities even if they didn't take a bed there?

 

[Anonymous]

Hey! - nice feedback on this ... it is an interesting idea (unless wanting to see the view is important )
What a lovely image, to walk out of the dark trail into lit and bustling villages and then back out again ..and I, too, was thinking of resting on my Altus poncho ... would be very odd for the day walkers though, they would pass the same sleeping pilgrim every day :lol:

Yes, I'd think a donation at refugios would be a good thing too and one would want the credential stamped ... Would alter the stages wouldn't it .. instead of having where one will stop in one's mind all day - and further projections - it would be more of an amble along ..

Dark doesn't bother me - any creatures would be more scared of me - not sure about farm dogs though ... but don't think I'd want to do the Appalachian - day or night - you have really large bears out there don't you Arn ??

from 'tips' on doing the Appalchian ..
"A bear that enters a campsite or cooking area should be considered predatory. Yelling, making loud noises, throwing rocks, may frighten it away, however, you should be prepared to fight back if necessary.
If you are attacked by a bear, you should fight for all you are worth with anything at hand – rocks, sticks, fists. " :shock:



:shock: :shock: :shock: I'll stick with the Camino (the Pyrennean bears are further east ... aren't they??? :| )

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I have to admit the great appeal of moonlight walks on the meseta. On a clear night in summer, with a bright moon, it´s spectacular out there. The Milky Way positively twinkles, and the starfield just knocks your socks off. Seeing the huge night skies here is one of the things that made me know this is home.

But walking out there on a moonless night? It´s so black it is downright unsafe. It´s like a coalmine.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree Rebeka - it was the Meseta that I was visualising when I started thinking about the possibility ... it would be quite extraordinary but when cloudy with no moon? .... :shock: I don't think so either!
And I would loathe to do it by torchlight .. in fact, I wouldn't do it by torchlight if it was inky, I just wouldn't go ... would have to emerge into the sunlight again. ..

 

[Arn]

Br David asked: you have really large bears out there don't you Arn ??

Although I saw some bear spore (Smokey Mountains, New Jersey) I only saw one bear cub fearfully gripping a tree. Upon my approach (I did not leave the trail) it scampered down running up a nearby hillside. I increased my speed to clear the area. Where there's a cub...there's a Mom.

The shelters has a chain link front to keep hikers in.


The key is NEVER stop to feed a bear. They know what you're holding is only what you want to give them. If you've taken your pack off...they know that's the prize...if you still have your pack on...YOU become the prize!

The sign reads: WARNING...bears are found in the area and the gate should remain closed at all times. The NOTICE reads: This means you to ARN...keep the gate closed!

Buen I'll take a dog any day Camino,

Arn

 

[Anonymous]

"I'll take a dog anyday" - I cannot agree more!! :shock:

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Sorry Sil, what with all the bears ´round here I missed answering you... :shock:

You said:

I was under the impression that the albergues allowed pilgrims with credentials who were camping or moving on to use their facilities even if they didn't take a bed there?"

And I can tell you it´s up to the hospitalero and the albergue. If it´s a private albergue, I think not -- unless there´s some exchange agreed-upon. You use their hot water and electricity, and they get nothing from it. If it´s a municipal or confraternity or otherwise non-profit place, it´s a big Maybe. If you show up during open hours, if they´re not too busy to deal with you, if they´re in a good mood today...etc. etc. Some places are wide-open with these things, Ponferrada, for instance. But smaller places, run by municipal employees or single volunteers who treasure their down-time? You roll the dice.

It´s not giving you a bed that costs. It´s your use of the hot water and electricity, and their responsibility to clean up whatever you might leave behind. Fifty cents. I bet even the mendicant tent-sleeper can swing that. It´s only fair.

Reb., who thinks anyone who can afford going on a camino ought to support infrastructure, even if only in a token way.

 

[Anonymous]

Reb., who thinks anyone who can afford going on a camino ought to support infrastructure, even if only in a token way.

Oh, I do agree and I'm not quite 'mendicant' but one can support the infrastructure by buying food along the way and offering good first aid for free, don't you think? ... but .. my personal situation is that I am on a pension (this is to do with my personal income, not what I'm also involved in) and if you take all the bills out, except food, then I have about £11 a day 'free' money for myself ... so if I am doing a pilgrimage for 'me' then that is the money I have .. take out the getting there and getting back and you can see that funds are rather limited.

Now, for me this is utter wealth ... I need only think about the rest of the world for a second to feel thankful ... but you can see where I am coming from when budgeting.

One of my memberships is of a small Christian association, mainly vicars, and we have a retreat coming up. The distance means that it will cost me £120 return driving my camper .. it is for two nights and costs £120 - that is £240 in total .. most people at that level think that this is small beer .. for them it represents a deep meditational sharing - for me it represents a great guilt - to spend such sums on myself ...
so ... please don't think that I don't want to pay my way ... only that I live on a very small scale - and am glad that I do
so this thread is about meditation and walking and solitude and the camino and the practicalities of walking at night - perhaps with a snooze in between .. or, of walking without using refugios to sleep in ... is all :wink:

 

[Pablo2007]

Ahhh there's always two sides to every coin.

I have an acquaintance her is Sydney who walked in 2006 and I've met up with him a couple of times and he tells me the same story ... he was at Samos at the monetary and it was so awful and he was treated so bad that as the albergue there asked only for donations he only threw them a copper coin.

Now I find that behavior completely objectionable (Here I am saying we shouldn't be judgmental but bugger it) I've been there I didn't stay but as far as I could see it was clean, safe out of the weather what more do you want for a donation.

Everyone's situation is different for example I imagine Br Davids budgeting situation can be a bit complex at time but good on you for for battling on and as you say keeping things in perspective re the rest of the world.

Alternatively I came across people ( one particular group of retired doctors) that were so cheap and full of complaints about lack of hot water facilities etc. What do people want for a few euros?????

I paid at a few albergues that I didn't even stay at ... Laugh I stayed mostly in small hotels and B&Bs (but that's another story) But I walked in to a couple of albergues paid etc then though Umm I can't do this and then just left. No big deal.

Going back to Br Davis point, my Camino was about introspection, meditation and also connection with the outside world of people places and things (there's those 2 sides of a coin again)


But I still think it would be scary at night

Pablo

 

[Pablo2007]

Ohh I forgot I used to have a rottweiler who didn't recognise me in the dark

It used to be really tricky coming home late at night :shock:

Pablo

 

[bpondugula]

A cunning and dangerous plan indeed. Maybe take a colleague along , if you miss a step , there;s your colleague to help you out. But then again , if you want to be alone, doesnot help with a colleague hanging around.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

I´m going to put my foot in it, so here goes:

People who can´t afford to pay their way along the Camino should stay at home and save up a little while until they can afford it. Expecting Divine Providence or St. James or The Noble Tradition of Christian Charity to pay for your pilgrimage is... well. Stupid. And selfish.

Saying that spending some money on a pilgrim menu or an albergue room is "supporting the economy/infrastructure" is pure rationalization. Running a donativo pilgrim albergue is a losing proposition for the towns and groups that do it -- that is why the Xunta de Galicia began charging a flat 3-Euro fee per user last year. That´s why pilgrim albergues appear and disappear. Restaurants with pilgrim menus make their profit from feeding people who order from the regular menu, or from serving drinks. As you know, pilgrims don´t spend much.

People who think Pilgrim Money rebuilt the towns along the Way have read a bit too much Camino PR. These claims do not figure-in all the grants and infrastructure investment and EU contributions that financed the lion´s share of the redevelopment -- again, public money from the taxpayers´pockets, sold back to them as Camino de Santiago Improvements. The pilgrims benefit, but what´s in it for the lady down the street?

I love pilgrims. Most of them are wonderful, generous, spiritual seekers. I even kinda like tourists. But I deeply dislike the "you must give me everything for nothing because I am a pilgrim" attitude some of them carry along the camino... best summed-up this Fall by a young man in his hi-tech 200-€ boots who asked, "is this place donativo, or do I have to pay something?"

My neighbor, a now-unemployed truck driver, really dislikes pilgrims. He thinks they are the worst kind of freeloaders: foreigners who can afford to not work for six weeks and buy a ticket to Spain, but who have the cojones to wander up to his door and ask (or sometimes demand!) food and drink and toilet facilities. He said this very morning, "You call them pilgrims. I call them locusts. They land, they eat everything in sight and (defecate) on everything, and they disappear. What do we get? Nada."

The feelings are out there. Just so you know. Not everyone sees pilgrims as blessings. Especially the ones who will not/cannot pay their way.

That said, I return to my pre-Lenten meditation on the words of St. John Chrysostum: "We must be more kind than just. Kindness alone reconciles."

 

[andy.d]

Rebekah,

this is a really thoughtful post that has had me meditating through the day. Do you know how much the recession is having an impact on local people's attitudes to pilgrims?

The Chrysostom quote is also wonderful - do you have the citation for it?

thanks,

Andy

 

[Ian Holdsworth]

Rebekah you have not put you foot in it. You remind me of many prayers of blessing said down the years over pilgrims before departure that contain the idea that a pilgrim should be a bringer of blessing to those who live in the lands they travel through. Perhaps it is now time for all pilgrims to
focus on what they can take to Spain to share rather than on what they can get.

 

[Anonymous]

Well well, that didn't take too long did it .... crikey! ... :shock:

if it's alright with you I shall leave you with Matthew 5:45 and perhaps Luke 6:35

and drop out of this one ....

dear oh dear .... :|

 

[sillydoll]

Br David - to get you back on the path (as it were!) I have read KayBe's blog where she walked at night and bemoaned the fact that she could not see any arrows, even with a headlamp, and took a wrong turn. I remember searching for an arrow in the dark a couple of times when we started walking before sunrise.
I still think it would be a novel way of keeping cool in summer, avoiding the crowds and experiencing a really different camino. I'm sure someone's son or daughter on this Frum wanted to walk a night camino some years back? Just can't recal who it was.

 

[Deirdre]

Last summer on the Camino, there was a group of American, Canadian and French pilgrims who frequently walked at night and slept under the stars. They often rested in churchyards and definitely maintained a "different" rhythm from other pilgrims. I know that they were often turned away from albergues when they asked to use the shower - usually private albergues - but I don't think they ever offered to give anything. (although I am not certain) And they were a fairly large group - not just one individual.

On the other hand, I know of albergues like Grañon (I think) where they would allow pilgrims to shower and move on for perhaps €1 donation.

I aslways had a funny picture of waking up in a ield in the morning surrounded by a herd of cows or a flock of sheep!
Buen Camino,

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, I do like the idea of it ... almost medieval in scope and outside the realm of those who only see this earth and how we move upon it as a commercial proposition ...

though .. last night I did try a short foray under moonless cloud and it is quite quite impossible :shock: so it is definitely a very clear sky option ... thanks for the input - I shall consider it closed now, for me.

 

[Anniesantiago]

I think it could be really nice to travel at night during full moon when you could see, and on a flat walk, like the Meseta.

I do know that the one time we tried leaving in the dark, we followed what we thought was the pathway and luckily only went about a mile before coming to a dead end. That cured us.

I also do agree with Rebekkah's post on supporting the infrastructure by paying along the way as much as you can. This is not the thirteenth century after all, and honestly, if you can afford a ticket, you CAN afford to pay your way. I also agree that though I met wonderful pilgrims along the way, I also met some so-called locusts, who left their mark with trash and unburied poop/paper. I have to wonder how these walkers would feel if I stopped by and took a dump in THEIR yard?

I think many people go to the Camino without doing their homework.. without trying to learn a little about the culture, and so they make mistakes that seem small to them, but can have a big impact on the locals. Things like "No Toca La Fruta" signs should be honored, and people who pay so very very little for lodging should, in my opinion, be willing to do some upkeep while they're there. Scrub the sink, sweep the floor, if you think the sheets are dirty, WASH THEM!

Oh gosh, I'm rambling now... this was about night walking.
Back to that.

It could be quite beautiful to walk under the stars -- I don't think enough people will do it that it would make an impact one way or the other... but yes, it is an interesting idea!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

We had a local Boy Scout leader take a stroll in the dark. The next morning they found him at the bottom of an 80 cliff on the Patapsco River.

 

[herman_e]

an interesting idea and i can understand where you are coming from... except... the camino can be embraced as a growing experience in its totality... the nice bits as well as the bugs, the crowds and the refugio fees. it could be an opportunity to observe your habitual automatic responses, question and re-evalute them. why decide to do it the 1st place? is a a pilgrimage not meant to be life-changing? leaving old baggage behind? surrender? ...and then on a more mundane level: if walking is equal to owning the land, as some cultures believe, what benefit from taking in mere shadows of it? methinks you need to step out of your self-imposed confines and open yourself up to a wondrous universe.

 

[Anonymous]

Why, thank you herman_e but I have been down that Camino Frances before - and the assumption that it is daylight where the 'real' reality is ... wellllll ...

 

[Anniesantiago]

Well, I've never read that bedbugs are a prerequisite for a pilgrimage.
The fees, I don't mind.
I'd prefer contemplative pilgrims to noisy tourists, but one can't be greedy :lol:

 

[sillydoll]

Herman - the pilgrim's office is quoted as saying that the most 'authentic' pilgrims are those who walk in winter. Why choose spring and summer, dry paths and sunshine when we can 'open ourselves up to a wondrous universe' of winter walking in snow, blizzards, sleet and mud!
Each to his own peregrino.

 

[Anonymous]

If I walked at night, had breakfast and slept under my umbrella, or in a church porch, then strolled on a bit, then slept again, then strolled to a village and had something to eat and perhaps a wash and then just stroll through the night.... ... what are the cons ? has anyone on here done it by night?

There are some great moments at night. I climbed O Cebreiro by moonlight last July and it was marvelous being the only pilgrim moving on that usually busy path. But the farm dogs are all let loose at night and I encountered a pack of three blocking the path. Frightening experience, as was the experience of encounters with dogs at night at any time I attempted it. (I resolved to get a "Bark-buster" high-frequency gadget if I ever walk at night again!)

Another problem with night walking is navigation: walking at night for a couple of sections between Leon and Astorga, I found it difficult at times to spot the yellow arrows, and the map didn't correspond to the paths and roads very well at night, when you cannot get your bearings from distant terrain and triangulate.

Your idea about crashing out during the day and saving the costs of accommodation and the bedbug experience is a good one. Night walking can be very meditative too. There are a number of very significant cons that need to be considered, however!

Photo: setting off at dusk - night walking just outside Hospital de Orbigo.
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/garethomas/5BurgosToPonferrada#5230280287980835170

Gareth

 

[luiza]

When I was making preparations to do the AT (Appalachian Trail 2, 164 miles) I often walked under a new moon and found it very relaxing. That said, the Camino is a connection of town to town...there are few stages where civilization isn't around the next Bar.

If you want the night experience...take it! The Camino will decide if it's right for you!

Buen is that really cheese in the moon Camino,

Arn

Arn,

Geology Prof. Edward Schreiber (deceased) of Lamont-Doherty Earth Observtory, Columbia University, New York and Queens College, New York ran experiments on Apollo 11 moon rock and then the same experiments on cheese.

Ed would have us all believe that the moon is made of green cheese after all.

Cheese,
Luiza

 

[Anniesantiago]

But.. but.. but...

If you walk at NIGHT, you don't see any of the beautiful architecture, any of the people, the trees and flowers and I just can't get past that time I got lost and walked into the creek I couldn't see because the guy ahead of me had a glaring headlamp.... and... and... ::laughing:::

I have to say that the Meseta under a Full Moon could be incredible...

You folks make me THINK too much!

 

[herman_e]

woo-hoo! thoroughly chastised i am. and sincere apologies for stepping on sensitive toes. too true. each to his own.

 

[sillydoll]

It would be quite boring if we all shared the same opinions on pilgrimage.
We all have our own reasons for walking the camino - Nancy Frey was able to write a complete thesis on it for her doctorate!
I remember one post where the member suggested that walking to Santiago from anywhere but Le Puy was like enjoying the main meal without savouring the starter. He was slapped down very smartly by those who knew that Le Puy, although a great pilgrimage destination itself, was not a starting point for St Jacques pilgrims, that Godesalco's journey (which was forgotten about for over 1000 years) could have taken any route to Santiago and that nobody knew about his pilgrimage to Santiago until a document was discovered in 1856 that mentioned his journey.
You can read more about the modern invention of the Le Puy route here.
http://www.saint-jacques.info/anglais/lepuy.htm

 

[Anonymous]

There are some great moments at night. I climbed O Cebreiro by moonlight last July and it was marvelous being the only pilgrim moving on that usually busy path. But the farm dogs are all let loose at night and I encountered a pack of three blocking the path. Frightening experience, as was the experience of encounters with dogs at night at any time I attempted it. (I resolved to get a "Bark-buster" high-frequency gadget if I ever walk at night again!)

Another problem with night walking is navigation: walking at night for a couple of sections between Leon and Astorga, I found it difficult at times to spot the yellow arrows, and the map didn't correspond to the paths and roads very well at night, when you cannot get your bearings from distant terrain and triangulate.

Your idea about crashing out during the day and saving the costs of accommodation and the bedbug experience is a good one. Night walking can be very meditative too. There are a number of very significant cons that need to be considered, however!

Thanks for the practicals ... yes .. had forgotten about the possibility of released dogs - and they can be bullies when in a crowd, just like some boys. - perhaps I shall alter it as I go .. evenings and mornings and sleep the dark 4 .. had a look at you photo link and almost wish I hadn't - great shots and I remembered most of the places .. just wanted to walk out there NOW! NOW! oh well ...

There have been some very interesting comments on this thread and good insight .... I must admit that I hadn't really thought that I would become a complete night owl .. only that possibly I could do the main walking when others weren't .... this may (thought I) free one from the destination fixation ... must get to that refuge today ... must get there tomorrow and so on ... hmmm .. and as Arn suggests, I would be in towns and villages during the day, so able to visit churches and so on (were I to do it this way) ...hhmm .. wonder if anyone has ever done it in the modern age without a map, just keeping the sun on the left shoulder .... hhmm ...
no .. t'was just ideas and a thread to enjoy (and you get great insight into other people by reading the replies!) .. and Sil is right of course, the thing to remember is that nothing is fixed, there is no right way or wrong way to pilgrimage .... or fixed route or fixed stopping points ...