A call for regulation or permit on the Francés

[Siegfried]

Why not let the Camino self regulate it's occupation level.
If there are too many complaints frequency might go back.
The nice thing of the Camino is that you have no right of assurance of any service.
If you do the camino you do it for yourself, in favour you profit spiritually, religiously.
If some groups book hotels and luggage transport it's fine , it should not bother you sleeping in albergues.
I personally will do a camino this year in East Germany , a quite lonely place, but with albergues on the way
Maybe in 2-3 years I 'll be back on the Frances to regain my findings of life.

 

[adam lapp]

With problems comes opportunities. Opportunities for new Spanish restaurant, bar, and especially albergue/hotel entrepreneurs.

 

[JCarpenter]

I thought the same...but a less extreme thing came to mind. Limit a person's compostela to every 5 years. Now I choose my route very differently on other years. I anticipate the opportunity to earn one with more gratitude. Also,limit the number of stays in municipal to a year in which you will get a compostela.

 

[Finley]

So why not just eliminate getting a certificate for the last 100 km.

 

[C clearly]

So why not just eliminate getting a certificate for the last 100 km.

Possibly because the people who issue the certificate do not share the same concerns about overcrowding.

 

[BucketBabe]

I'm not a fan of the idea either. But I can imagine some system where the issue of credencials is far more tightly controlled and limited in numbers. Which could in turn restrict numbers using traditional albergues or claiming a Compostela at the end of their journey. But who would decide the allocation of credencials? Quotas by nationality? One central issuing organisation? A lottery for places? It would be a very different experience from the Caminos as we have known them for decades.

I walked two Caminos completing both Portuguese routes without credentials. They were number 2 and 3 Caminos for me. I did them back to back with a 4 day break in Porto. The Compostela was not the point.

I wonder how many of us walk with the Compostela being the end goal. This would be a hard number to figure and if it is even 20%, with tightening it up with permits and credential limits, it would need to be accounted for.

I walked them for the pilgrimage. I have come to know beyond a doubt that the Francés changed my life AFTER completing my first Camino and getting the Compostela. The two Portuguese routes changed my life DURING the Caminos. I doubt I will need any more Caminos but I never say never and leave the door open.

 

[sillydoll]

In 1954 pilgrims in vehicles were issued with credenciales and a map of the main routes to Santiago. Those who drove the route and got stamps in their credenciales and earned a diploma when they presented it at the Cathedral.
The rule to walk in order to earn a Compostela (minimum of 100km) was only introduced in the 1990s. FICS want to change this to 300km.
Perhaps the Cathedral fathers need to rescind the 100km walking ruling, offer any pilgrim who visits the Pilgrim Office in Santiago a Compostela Certificate, as is done at most other Christian shrines like Lourdes, Jerusalem, Bethlehem etc., (you can Google for samples of these certificates). To satisy the long-haul pilgrims they could re-introduce the 300km certificate that was introduced in 1965 "...... the church began in 1965 to issue a special certificate to those who trekked more than 300 kilometers on foot." (Prof Sasha Pack, Revival of the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela: The Politics of Religious, National,and European Patrimony, 1879–1988)
PS: I have walked to Santiago 13 times and have 3 certificates - 2 Compostelas and a Welcome Certificate.

 

[NorthfaceJohn]

As I am not a Catholic, I confess (pun intended) I’m not quite sure what the Compostela does for most people other than acknowledge that they have walked at least 100KM to a very important religious place since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year and require additional steps, such as confession, which few do.

So it does seem to me that many people may feel satisfied with their accomplishments if they received some form of recognition/acknowledgement other places on the Camino with historical or religious significance. Walking 100km to Padron for a Padronia, for example, or maybe getting a document of some sort at the magnificent Cathedral in Leon. That might, over time, move the needle on reducing some of the congestion into SdC.

Personally, I think the credencia with all the unique and sometimes very decorative stamps is a much more impressive document than the Compostela which really only states that I walked 100km. On my next Camino, I think I would completely skip that last 100 km.

 

[Bradypus]

Personally, I think the credencia with all the unique and sometimes very decorative stamps is a much more impressive document than the Compostela which really only states that I walked 100km.

One of the reasons why I no longer ask for a Compostela. It states a lot more than that but as the pilgrim office no longer have any interest in a pilgrim's motives and do not ask about them in practice the Compostela no longer means what it says.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

With problems comes opportunities. Opportunities for new Spanish restaurant, bar, and especially albergue/hotel entrepreneurs.

You are correct in that these particular issues will be sorted by the various commercial interests, as has happened for the last 30 years.

Unfortunately this doesn't nothing to address the massive overcrowding on parts of the actual route - ie. the Camino itself. Especially the last 3 days on the Frances. For those who know no better it's very possibly not a major issue, but for somebody that has walked hundreds of kilometres the sheer numbers surrounding us are somewhat problematic shall we say.

As has been addressed by others above this pressure may be potentially be relieved by changing the criteria to get a Compostela. Whilst for a significant number this has genuine religious meaning, for all too many it is simply a pretty certificate, which can only be obtained by completing the last 100 km.

As also suggested above, identification and marking of alternative routes into Santiago would potentially benefit both the commercial interests and pilgrims.

Limit a person's compostela to every 5 years.

This may help a little but penalizes those who genuinely walk for religious reasons. As does limiting their stays in municipal Albergues.

Plus it does absolutely nothing to address the tour groups who do not use municipals, who's tour organiser collects their sellos along the way, and who simply collect a Compostela as a pretty certificate at the end. (I appreciate that this is not the case for all tour groups, some groups are of course on camino for religious reasons).

Nor I would add does it do anything to stop people like myself who walk because we feel the need to do so, do not need to stay in municipals, and never collect the Compostela at the end.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

…

This may help a little but penalizes those who genuinely walk for religious reasons. As does limiting their stays in municipal Albergues.

If one is walking for religious reasons more than once every five years, would they not walk if they couldn’t get a Compostela each time? They could still get he certificate at the Church.

Also, FWIW, I did not walk for religious reasons and asked for a Welcome Certificate but was given a Compostela instead - indeed, it seemed it had already been printed out by the time I stepped up to the counter.

 

[dougfitz]

Maybe you should only walk once ?
Many that argue it’s too busy have walked many times!

What a wonderful example of the rhetorical fallacy formally known as an ad hominum, or perhaps better known in this case as 'shooting the messenger'. If properly implemented, it could become an instance of that management policy 'the sackings will continue until morale improves' as we eliminate anyone who has previously walked from even starting a camino.

 

[Chiquito]

The PCT in America utilizes a lottery system. Factors like nationality etc are completely disregarded.


It would be relatively easy to transport a few Guardia Civil members, or even dedicated 'Camino wardens' to a slightly more isolated place to check the permits, with offenders being promptly removed from the trail to the nearest town and issued spot fines (€150 first offence, €500 second offence etc) for non-compliance. I'm sure those of you who have walked the Frances more than once could think of multiple places where this could be achieved relatively easily. (I can think of several places on both the Primitivo and the Inglès where it could be done, and I've only walked them once).
Roving patrols of course.

The wardens could double as first aid officers for law abiding pilgrims, transport in a water refill station etc.

You might get away with walking for several days without seeing one, but sooner or later they'd catch up with you. Simply knowing they're there would discourage many cheats.

I did say I would prefer not to see the system implemented however logistics aren't that hard to manage if you put your mind to it.

And I would rather see a permit system than the Camino destroyed by its own popularity.

Something like this would spoil the whole Camino experience, besides I think you would find it hard to fine someone for walking on public lands, roads etc

 

[Salash]

They could charge a fee for the Compostela.

Perhaps the fee could be applied to Compostela for those who are only walking the last 100km in order to receive it?

 

[Judeperegrino]

Thank you for this article. It raises really important issues as have a few others in Spanish newspapers recently. I hesitate to post this but LEAVE NO TRACE might be PART of the solution. Having just returned and being very moved, grateful, and inspired by the pilgrimage with all its challenges: Yes, the biggest challenge was, after weeks of taking the alternative routes in which I might have met one or two all day and soaked up the beauty of snow topped mountains, wild orchids, stone villages, ancient monuments, local hospitality, friendly pilgrims offering help, donation based tables laden with food ... the list goes on. Yes the hardest challenge indeed was the first day out of Sarria. Yes, despite Brierly's warnings, it was very confronting. In Sarria I counted approx 1000 pilgrims going past the cafe I was in having coffee before leaving! Yes the challenger when it was non stop raining for a week, the path was so muddy made worse by the crowds often seeming to push through as if it were a race, the toilet paper if not worse ... the sudden absence of that camino spirit simply expressed in a friendly greeting 'BUEN CAMINO', (some looked at me as if I were odd when I said it!). Yet then, I adjusted somewhat. I actually walked later not earlier and the crowds had long since surged past. I noticed a huge surge in local Spanish people doing it who loved my greeting them and replied with a big smile. I often found myself behind a group of Irish school girls chattering gaily away ... I discovered they were doing this as a charity fundraiser for families with seriously sick children...it made my heart sing to keep bumping into them! So happy, carefree, one was injured and had her knee bandaged and was limping but that didn't seem to stop her! We saw their palpable joy arriving in Santiago. So their motivation was to help others. There are many motivations as we well know. The article mentioned talks about educating those doing the camino with a simple brochure ...another part of a possible solution and very simple. Not enough but part ...

For what it is worth, perhaps we really need to consider this in the light of a much greater global phenomena about, for example 'conquering Mount Everest' (See Sherpa or Mountain by Jennifer Peedom for example) Or Through Walks as a tick a box exercise ... As a bush club leader leading very small unpretentious and non commercial walks in wilderness areas and enjoying long pack walks in areas of pristine wilderness, our whole ethos, which we simply impart, is the 'leave no trace', minimal impact walking ... and this applies to the Camino ... there is no excuse for leaving toilet paper or worse (I am a woman btw! and I know how to not need toilet paper etc it is not hard to 'what you
Even Leave no Trace minimal impact principles would help but is not the full answer. I know the Spanish locals are getting concerned about sheer numbers: the small villages with a lot of poverty need the income but it is getting too much in the last 100 k. Or Santiago itself. For example there were articles in Spanish newspapers about local Santiago residents no longer able to afford soaring accommodation prices and the rise of Air BnBs inflating prices ... etc etc etc. Sheer numbers leading to health issues (sanitation, infections in the hostels etc I got covid and that was actually scary and I am still not 100%: how does one get access to health help, not infect others? Not be part of the problem). The motive of profiteering is not helping (one example being accommodation block booked by tour companies ... so individuals needing it can't get a private room). The camino in essence is not (I hope) about competition, profiteering, scamming, thefts, ignoring to help others needing help, pushing or shoving.
There are many problems and so the solutions need to be carefully considered. Let the manifold beautiful spirit of the camino live on! Buen Camino, Et Ultreia, et Suseia (as the pilgrims said in olden years)

 

[Judeperegrino]

You are correct in that these particular issues will be sorted by the various commercial interests, as has happened for the last 30 years.

Unfortunately this doesn't nothing to address the massive overcrowding on parts of the actual route - ie. the Camino itself. Especially the last 3 days on the Frances. For those who know no better it's very possibly not a major issue, but for somebody that has walked hundreds of kilometres the sheer numbers surrounding us are somewhat problematic shall we say.

As has been addressed by others above this pressure may be potentially be relieved by changing the criteria to get a Compostela. Whilst for a significant number this has genuine religious meaning, for all too many it is simply a pretty certificate, which can only be obtained by completing the last 100 km.

As also suggested above, identification and marking of alternative routes into Santiago would potentially benefit both the commercial interests and pilgrims.

This may help a little but penalizes those who genuinely walk for religious reasons. As does limiting their stays in municipal Albergues.

Plus it does absolutely nothing to address the tour groups who do not use municipals, who's tour organiser collects their sellos along the way, and who simply collect a Compostela as a pretty certificate at the end. (I appreciate that this is not the case for all tour groups, some groups are of course on camino for religious reasons).

Nor I would add does it do anything to stop people like myself who walk because we feel the need to do so, do not need to stay in municipals, and never collect the Compostela at the end.

I hesitate to wade in but for what it is worth ...
The Camino in origin and spirit is still also about the Compostella. (field of stars!) Please don't take that away! There are many motivations for the stamps and the Certificate but it has such a long history. I spoke to the volunteer woman in the pilgrim's office when I received mine, who does it out of the goodness of her heart because it means something deep to her. She was very welcoming, kind, as they all were. I am moved to put my own hand up to volunteer in come capacity some time, perhaps more likely as a hospitalero ...They offer many resources at the office to help pilgrims who have arrived, such as a space for pilgrims simply needing someone to talk to about their experience. They do care in fact. They are not paid! To think the solution is to get rid of the compostella which not only has such a rich, long history but culturally is so very important to the Spanish whose host country this is) This might be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak ...

 

[JabbaPapa]

The Camino in origin and spirit is still also about the Compostella.

No, in origin and spirit, it's all about the religious pilgrimage to the Tomb of the Apostle, and the Compostela is a part of that religiosity rather than the centre of it.

The Camino isn't about a piece of paper.

Perhaps the fee could be applied to Compostela for those who are only walking the last 100km in order to receive it?

That sounds illegal ; but even so, then people would just start walking 150K instead.

--------

My impression from walking Santiago > Sarria in 2022 is that the worst of the crowding was from the organised large groups, some doing the final 100K with coach support, some being large groups of young 20-something Spaniards, some semi-organised large groups roughly equivalent to Camino "families" (quite a few of them South Koreans), some being organised tour groups run by such people as the interviewee in the article.

If this is a problem, then the gentleman in question is himself a part of the problem, so that a "solution" tailored to his own preferences and the needs of his own business is unlikely to be helpful.

Outside of those large groups, it was not much more crowded than the Portuguese Way in the same year, nor than the stretch Sarria > Astorga. I can't speak to the rest of the Francès, because after that point numbers were dwindling from it being late in the season, so my perspective on that is less pertinent.

 

[VNwalking]

We are not in the traffic, we are the traffic.
And much as we might like to see fewer [tour groups/cyclists/rowdy students/fill in the blank] out there - well, they are going to Santiago just like we are. Their motivation is their business and ther problem, no one else's. And the church clearly doesn't really care.

So while regulation all that is a horrible thought, I can't see it actually happening. If you don't like the crowds (many of us don't), it's always possible to walk elsewhere.

 

[MarkyD]

I've just read this article from La Voz de Galicia. A Camino guide and frequent pilgrim with over 30 years of Camino experience calling for some greater regulation of numbers - at least on the final stages. Prompted by the sight of pilgrims coming to blows near Portomarin.

Un guía lanza la voz de alarma: «Asistí a una pelea entre peregrinos y hasta ahora me parecía imposible mezclar puñetazos y Camino»

El madrileño Raúl Vincenzo Giglio, tras recorrer la ruta a Santiago 44 veces y guiar a infinitos grupos, comparte su lamento: «Estamos en un momento crítico en el que o cambiamos algo todos nosotros nuestra forma de peregrinar y se regula el último tramo, o el Camino puede morir de éxito»

www.lavozdegalicia.es

There have been recent protests in different parts of Spain to seek a better balance between the goals of the tourism industry and the local people. So some of this suggestion for tighter controls might be influenced by the the wider objective of trying to modify the "mass tourism" model, which represents a significant economic benefit for Spain.

However, the "through walk" nature of the Camino de Santiago routes, only really gives rise to problems due to the "bottle neck effect". Perhaps a first step might be to focus on alleviating the pressure at those places. This could be relatively easily implemented by local authorities providing "emergency accommodation" that can be enabled for use when required. This already happens in some towns, but the post-pandemic effect has lead to two factors that have exasserbated the "bottle necks".

One has been the closure of several private albergues and a corresponding reduction of available beds. I don’t know if pre-pandemic levels of accommodation have been restored, but I imagine it hasn't been restored, let alone increased. Maybe someone can dig up some facts to show this.

The second factor, is that far more people are coming to walk the Camino, with the majority wanting to walk the Sarria to Santiago section, so that part of the "bottle neck problem" needs something done sooner or later. In addition, routes with sparse infrastructure, need to have a plan implemented now. This would add to and improvement existing facilities to meet the demand of increased numbers on those routes.

Before going down the road of regulation, fines and removals (as some have suggested); I would like to see a better and more strategic implementation of "emergency" accommodation provision, along with related services such as places to eat. This emergency accommodation could then form part of a more permanent infrastructure as/if demand continues to increase.

 

[duncanwhyte]

It's oversubscribed, like the London marathon, and that has resulted in a ballot system. Ie you can only run if you are selected.

For now, whilst it's so commercialised, use the other caminos and advise others to avoid the Frances. Once these generations have had their turn, it's likely numbers will steadily reduce. Although that will take several years.

For now all can choose to walk, as and when. Any kind of regulation might prevent that.

I have not walked the Frances and I don't expect I will.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

I just finished a few weeks ago. Unpleasantly crowded, but it was high season.

I don't think that Spain wants to limit pilgrims. It’s an economic engine that they want to fuel. Those pilgrims walking and staying in municipals dont spend as much money as the rolling luggage tourist set. Why in the world would they discourage that?

You’re all so quaint with your“spiritual” camino!

 

[trecile]

Many of those in the rolling luggage group are Spaniards enjoying their own culture in their own country.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Many of those in the rolling luggage group are Spaniards enjoying their own culture in their own country.

All the more reason to encourage them. I dont think anything should be regulated. Plus it would not work.

All I’m pointing out is that the Camino has changed due to popularity.
If you want the “old” camino walk somewhere else. I spent a glorious month in Venice 25 years ago, but I would never go back now….

This forum is just the beginning. Soon they’ll be articles in travel magazines and websites about how crowded the Camino has become.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Also in terms of comparing regulating the PCT to the Camino.

I assume the PCT was regulated for environmental reasons, not for the comfort of the hikers.

And probably because the National regulating bodies like the Park service have a mandate to protect the land and flora and fauna, there was a legal basis for use regulation.

What are you protecting on the camino: a right to a cheap bed?

I didn't particularly like the overcrowded days on the Camino Frances, but there was no person I would tell to go home.

 

[Former member 22438]

Many of those in the rolling luggage group are Spaniards enjoying their own culture in their own country.

I had been told by several Spaniards I know that walking the camino is good for their CV That’s why places like Sarria, Ferrol, Tui etc are so populair among them.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

This forum is just the beginning. Soon they’ll be articles in travel magazines and websites about how crowded the Camino has become.

Actually it didn't start with us here on the forum, it started with an article in a Spanish newspaper - kindly provided by @Bradypus (post#1).

And those articles ? There is a plethora of articles on how crowded the camino is, and have been for quite some time. "Is the camino too crowded", "Avoiding crowds on the Camino" etc headlines exist across multiple websites and on YouTube. And yet the numbers still continued to grow. Proving the old adage 'any advertising is good advertising'.

Many of those in the rolling luggage group are Spaniards enjoying their own culture in their own country.

Indeed they are. A group of 40 were on the Camino Inglès last year at the same time as myself, booking out entire albergues along the way. (A Spanish church group I believe, walking during Semana Santa).

Equally there are many who are not. A good friend of my sister was part of an Australian tour group not long afterwards doing the Sarria section, walking when they felt like it, taking the support vehicle when they'd had enough.... .

 

[Kathar1na]

Also in terms of comparing regulating the PCT to the Camino.
I assume the PCT was regulated for environmental reasons, not for the comfort of the hikers.
And probably because the National regulating bodies like the Park service have a mandate to protect the land and flora and fauna, there was a legal basis for use regulation.

Furthermore, on the topic of comparing the Camino Francés to the PCT in the context of regulation: there is the important difference of land ownership. Much of the land to the right and left of the Camino Frances is privately owned. There is no government body that owns large areas in this context. I think that this is one of several major differences between the Camino Francés and the long-distance wilderness trails in the USA.

Many years ago I wrote to several authorities and Camino associations in Navarra to ask whether they would consider turning the path down from the Alto del Perdon into a zigzag path to prevent injuries and make it easer to walk down for inexperienced walkers. A few did not bother to respond but I got one informative reply:

In answer to your mail, we inform you that the Environmental Department annually makes the maintenance and the signposting of the Way to Santiago in Navarra.

We know the section referenced, it is very rocky with slope and can damage the knees, causing some accidents.

Your proposal to condition a zigzag path it is ideal solution, but very expensive and also it involves the expropriation of land to undertake the works.

Note: It would require the expropriation of land.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Actually it didn't start with us here on the forum, it started with an article in a Spanish newspaper - kindly provided by @Bradypus (post#1).

And those articles ? There is a plethora of articles on how crowded the camino is, and have been for quite some time. "Is the camino too crowded", "Avoiding crowds on the Camino" etc headlines exist across multiple websites and on YouTube. And yet the numbers still continued to grow. Proving the old adage 'any advertising is good advertising'.

Indeed they are. A group of 40 were on the Camino Inglès last year at the same time as myself, booking out entire albergues along the way. (A Spanish church group I believe, walking during Semana Santa).

Equally there are many who are not. A good friend of my sister was part of an Australian tour group not long afterwards doing the Sarria section, walking when they felt like it, taking the support vehicle when they'd had enough.... .

On my recent Camino Frances, I spent many a night in sold out albergues where I had to exit past a mountain of rolling luggage waiting for transportation.

All I’m saying is that I don't think we can regulate our way out of this. Mainly because I suspect most Spainards want the opposite. Busier camino equals more jobs.

Some things just have to be accepted with stoicism.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Furthermore, on the topic of comparing the Camino Francés to the PCT in the context of regulation: there is the important difference of land ownership. Much of the land to the right and left of the Camino Frances is privately owned. There is no government body that owns large areas in this context. I think that this is one of several major differences between the Camino Francés and the long-distance wilderness trails in the USA.

Many years ago I wrote to several authorities and Camino associations in Navarra to ask whether they would consider turning the path down from the Alto del Perdon into a zigzag path to prevent injuries and make it easer to walk down for inexperienced walkers. A few did not bother to respond but I got one informative reply:


Note: It would require the expropriation of land.

I think governments have lots of mechanisms to regulate private land if they want to. But they have to justify it to their citizens.
It doesn’t seem like we have an emergency here.

 

[Kathar1na]

Re refugios - the credential is already a permit for staying in refugios.

Apart from the fact that the most official credencial, namely the credencial issued by the Cathedral of Santiago, does not refer to refugios but to albergues, it also states that it allows el acceso a los albergues que ofrece la hospitalidad cristiana del Camino, or in English as translated by them, permit access to the hostels offered by the Christian hospitality of the Way. Albergues belonging to this classification are a small minority I would assume.

Do all the municipal albergues and the Xunta albergues even require such an "official" credencial or are they happy with any proof of being a bona fide Camino pilgrim and this includes even home-made credentials? I think that they do.

And all those many albergues that are not exlusively for pilgrims but are oriented towards pilgrims? The casa rurales, the pensions, the small hotels? They have a stamp for you but they don't require you to have a credencial. Credencials as currently used are not a means to regulate the number of Camino pilgrims.

 

[KevinWilcox]

It seems to me that the compostela is playing a central role, because even for those who couldn’t care less about getting it, it frames the Camino. All roads lead to SDC. If you walk the last 100kms you get a piece of paper to prove you ‘passed the test’. Run any google search on caminos and the results will centre on the last 100kms. So Sarria and Tui it is. Disconnect the certificate from the distance and people will probably begin to look at things differently.

 

[Bradypus]

Credencials as currently used are not a means to regulate the number of Camino pilgrims.

In order to receive a Compostela at the end of your journey you must now present your collection of sellos on an authorised credencial. Some posts have suggested that many people would not walk a Camino if there was no Compostela at the end or if the conditions for receiving one were made more demanding. I am not in favour of some central control of numbers but I can imagine a system where the issue of credencials is more tightly controlled and limited in number and therefore fewer people could claim a Compostela in any given year. That would not affect me personally as I no longer ask for one. I think that many people would continue to walk without troubling the pilgrim office for a piece of paper when we reached Santiago. But it might be a deterrent for some of those for whom receiving a Compostela is a major goal.

 

[Kathar1na]

Or, just stop moaning about it? The Hajj to Mecca has between 2 and 3 million pilgrims each year ... they don't restrict, they just set up the right infrastructure.
(before the usual responses - all of the above is in jest). ... well, nearly all

So, was that a joke about there being no restrictions for the pilgrimage to Mecca or not, I wonder.

Quite apart from the fact that the pilgrimage to Mecca is not exactly as “open to all” as the Camino to Santiago, there is also this bit of very current news:

According to Saudi laws, during the Hajj season, it is strictly prohibited for any Saudi citizen, resident, or non-resident to enter Mecca and the holy sites without entry permits.​

The Saudi authorities aim to enforce the entry permit system to regulate the influx of visitors and safeguard the sacred sites.​

 

[SabsP]

So, was that a joke about there being no restrictions for the pilgrimage to Mecca or not, I wonder.

Quite apart from the fact that the pilgrimage to Mecca is not exactly as “open to all” as the Camino to Santiago, there is also this bit of very current news:

According to Saudi laws, during the Hajj season, it is strictly prohibited for any Saudi citizen, resident, or non-resident to enter Mecca and the holy sites without entry permits.​

The Saudi authorities aim to enforce the entry permit system to regulate the influx of visitors and safeguard the sacred sites.​

Religious segregation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[David]

Religious segregation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Of course! It is illegal for a non-Muslim to attend the Hajj - it isn't a tourist thing .. are you suggesting hat we should do the same? Only allow Catholics to enter the Santiago cathedral precincts?

 

[Kathar1na]

I believe that that is for Saudi resident workers, not pilgrims.

I don't see much room for belief there. You may or may not refer to visas for resident workers in Saudi Arabia. Such visas don't qualify for entering Mecca.

But that is not what it says in the quoted news item and similar recent news item. This is what they say: Not even being a Saudi national qualifies for entering Mecca - at least not during certain periods of the year like now in May and June. All must obtain a pilgrim permit to enter.

 

[Bradypus]

Saudi Arabia strictly limits the numbers permitted during the Hajj. There is a specific visa required for it and a limited quota is allocated per country in line with their Muslim population. It is very tightly controlled. Many Muslims who would wish to make the Hajj in any given year are unable to do so because of the quota system.

Hajj Quota by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

 

[Kathar1na]

All must be pilgrims, Muslims, to attend the Hajj. They have Saudi resident immigrant workers who are not Muslims and they are allowed to enter for work purposes on a permit system.

And? Please focus on the exact content of the posts you react to. Thank you.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Mainly because I suspect most Spainards want the opposite.

Not according to the numerous reports of spaniards protesting against mass tourism over recent months. Including in Santiago. A Fodor's guide headline from 10/23 "Flooded by tourists, Santiago de Compostela has had enough of its tourists." Santiago's Mayor is quoted as saying "I want Santiago de Compostela to stop being just a tourist destination and a theme park,” .

Apparently, Santiago de Compostela intends to impose a tourist fee in order to combat overtourism.

There is a myriad of articles following this theme from numerous tourism hot spots throughout Spain.

It's hardly surprising when you consider the consequences of over tourism. Water consumption, rubbish disposal, pollution, littering, damage to historical sites, disrespect for local cultures and customs, and massive rises in accommodation costs (which end up being directly borne by the residents).

 

[SabsP]

Of course! It is illegal for a non-Muslim to attend the Hajj - it isn't a tourist thing .. are you suggesting hat we should do the same? Only allow Catholics to enter the Santiago cathedral precincts?

I am merely posting an objective fact. I have no intention at all to talk religion here seeing it is against the forumrules.
It beats me why you would put a laughing emoji under my post. But again " De gustibus non est disputandum ".

 

[Pafayac]

What a wonderful example of the rhetorical fallacy formally known as an ad hominum, or perhaps better known in this case as 'shooting the messenger'. If properly implemented, it could become an instance of that management policy 'the sackings will continue until morale improves' as we eliminate anyone who has previously walked from even starting a camino.

The correct expression is "ad hominem".
Indeed I do not see "ad hominem" here: @Forward did not attack a particular member, but remember an obviousness. All the pilgrims who walk the Camino several times (as I do), contribute to the crowd.
IMHO, that does not mean that we have no rights to say that there is a problem, or to try to find solutions. But only that we are part of the problem.

 

[Kathar1na]

And I don't understand why there is an angry emoji under one of my posts.

So here is a TL;DR. It is about people who want to enter Mecca as pilgrims. As Hajj pilgrims. What has it got to do with the thread topic? Well, there are restrictions on the number of pilgrims on pilgrimages in other contexts than the contemporary Camino to Santiago.The comparison value of these restrictions is low in my most humble opinion. Makkah is another name for Mecca.

The [Saudi Arabia] Ministry of Interior has issued this advisory, which will be in effect from Thursday, May 23 to Friday, June 21. These dates correspond to 15 of Dhu al-Qadah, 1445 to 15 of Dhul Hijjah in the Hijri calendar.​

​

For those intending to perform Haj in Makkah, only a Haj permit will grant them entry. Any other form of visit visa will not be considered a permit during this period.​

​

Additionally, the Fatwa Council of Saudi Arabia has imposed a ban on performing Haj without a permit, aiming to ensure the safety and security of pilgrims. Since May 4, Saudi residents have also been mandated to present permits to enter Makkah.​

 

[Kathar1na]

Apparently, Santiago de Compostela intends to impose a tourist fee in order to combat overtourism. It closed its northern port terminal to cruise ships.

There was talk in the news about the introduction of a tourist fee for Santiago. I don't recall which of the political parties floated the idea and whether they control the town administration at the moment. However, do tourist fees combat overtourism and reduce numbers of visitors? Or are their purpose more to generate income that can be used to improve conditions (protection of the environment, affordable housing etc) for the inhabitants of a popular tourist destination?

As to Santiago's "northern port terminal" and cruise ships - what does this refer to? It cannot be the port of Coruña, can it? This was published in April 2024:

El Puerto de A Coruña batirá récord de cruceros en 2024 y también en 2025

La ciudad es la que más barcos recibirá de toda la franja atlántica entre Lisboa y la Bretaña francesa. En los próximos 14 días recibirá la visita de 20

www.elespanol.com

 

[JabbaPapa]

There have been recent protests in different parts of Spain to seek a better balance between the goals of the tourism industry and the local people. So some of this suggestion for tighter controls might be influenced by the the wider objective of trying to modify the "mass tourism" model, which represents a significant economic benefit for Spain.

One thing that is being done, and I've witnessed these incremental changes over the years, is that the route of the Francès in particular is changing over time to avoid some pueblos where the locals were annoyed (also in some cases for better pilgrim safety), but detouring into some those pueblos where the extra business is wanted instead.

There are also cases, on several Camino routes, where the main Albergue can be deliberately placed at the outskirts of town rather than in the centre.

 

[Pelegrin]

There was talk in the news about the introduction of a tourist fee for Santiago. I don't recall which of the political parties floated the idea and whether they control the town administration at the moment.

The party is BNG ( Bloque Nacionalista Galego). The current mayor is from BNG.

 

[trecile]

As to Santiago's "northern port terminal" and cruise ships - what does this refer to? It cannot be the port of Coruña, can it? This was published in April 2024:

Yes, it is referring to A Coruña. My mother was on a cruise that stopped in A Coruña years ago, and told me that it was a city worth spending time in. So I did exactly that in 2017 and loved it.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

s to Santiago's "northern port terminal" and cruise ships - what does this refer to? It cannot be the port of Coruña, can it? This was published in April 2024:

Apologies, it appears I may have inadvertently posted info from an article on the 'other' Santiago! I did specify Santiago de Compostela in my search for articles (there's so many of them that I just very briefly skimmed) but Google and I have a love hate relationship....

It seems unlikely, given the article that you have quoted, that A Coruna would be affected. Plus I'm not even sure that Santiago de Compostela could close A Corunas Port to tourist ships if it wanted to?

I actually can't find that reference now, I've been looking at so much stuff over the last hour it's not funny.

I've edited my post accordingly.

 

[MethaV]

Thanks for the article @Bradypus . Interesting timing considering that we only just talked about this elsewhere on the forum in the last few of weeks.
(Perhaps not surprising because forum members are simply reporting on the same phenomenon.)

The guide is quoted as saying that he thinks people should be encouraged to walk the last hundred k's on other routes. Whilst that is certainly one idea (which we have also discussed) he actually mentions the Primitivo - which of course joins with the Frances - so hardly a solution.
The Inglès is already saturated at certain points at certain times of the year - Pontedeume, Bruma being the classic examples. (But increase in accommodation availability would fix the majority of those issues, because with the exception of the first hour or two of the day, the trail itself is not horrendously busy.) That said a permit system would then spread the pilgrims more evenly, which is actually better for the infrastructure - I'm sure the hospitality providers would not complain. (Better than turning people away one week, and half empty the next).

Accommodation on the Portuguese is also stretched at certain times of the year. Again, some kind of permit system would greatly assist in alleviating that.

As luck would have it the last one hundred kilometers is all within Galacia on all routes, is it not? So potentially only one authority involved.

Anyone walking from further afield (you could even have specific start points) would be automatically entitled to a permit. The data from Pilgrim House could be used to extrapolate approximately how many pilgrims are actually on any route on a month by month basis. (Last year they estimated that approximately 600,000 people walked a camino, with 450,000 people registered, meaning 75% of the pilgrims applied for a Compostela).

Exactly how you would enforce it I do not know, but I'm sure it could be done.
Even at the risk of annoying some of the locals in their daily walks. Mind you let's face it not many of them wear day packs, let alone rucksacks!

Do I want to see this happen? Heck no!
Might it become necessary? Sadly, yes.

I also don't want to see those restrictions, but some change is probably necessary. Maybe with the terribly crowded Caminos the people walking for fun or for exercise might just get tired of it and try other ways of spending a nice vacation. There are plenty other hiking routes in the world.
Maybe we should start promoting places like la via Dinarica in Balkan more. It's supposed to be really nice and not ending in SdC.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I did specify Santiago de Compostela in my search for articles (there's so many of them that I just very briefly skimmed) but Google and I have a love hate relationship....

I agree...similar has certainly happened to me before.

 

[Kitsambler]

That would be a very serious infringement on the whole idea of freedom of movement.

Don't many major European cities already have limits on the number of cars allowed in the central core (ie, downtown) during certain hours of certain days? I think I recall some permit/ fine mechanisms involved.

Don't football matches sell tickets? Imagine the chaos if every football match was General Admission (no assigned seats) and free. Don't many museums have timed entry tickets, free or fee?

 

[Pafayac]

Don't football matches sell tickets? Imagine the chaos if every football match was General Admission (no assigned seats) and free. Don't many museums have timed entry tickets, free or fee?

Camino is not a performance, nor a football game, nor an exhibition.
It will be regulated by the accommodations: when enough pilgrims will be tired of bed race or dormitory worries, the number of pilgrims will decrease.
The only concern is for local population: if they find there are two many people on the Camino, local authorities should set rules.

 

[dick bird]

Oh dear - I knew I would be trolled, and I knew who would be doing it - look, it doesn't matter what the people who run Mecca do - my point is that they 'allow' MILLIONS of pilgrim to attend Hajj each year. Can we stop this unpleasant pedantry now?

You are not being trolled. You are being contradicted. The point being made is that the Saudi Arabian govt very strictly controls numbers travelling to Mecca. You stated that millions are allowed to travel to Mecca whereas millions are refused permission to travel to Mecca.

 

[C clearly]

Don't many major European cities already have limits on the number of cars allowed in the central core (ie, downtown) during certain hours of certain days? I think I recall some permit/ fine mechanisms involved.

Don't football matches sell tickets? Imagine the chaos if every football match was General Admission (no assigned seats) and free. Don't many museums have timed entry tickets, free or fee?

Yes, see post #12.

Freedom of movement is a concept or principle which clearly has limits, like all freedoms in a "free"society. Other principles need to be balanced in the law, including enforceability/practicality. There is a big difference between restricting downtown parking and crowds in a stadium, and restricting people from walking 800 km of open public path across a country.

 

[C clearly]

(before the usual responses - all of the above is in jest). ... well, nearly all

Oh dear - I knew I would be trolled, and I knew who would be doing it

David, how do you expect members to react when you introduce vague "jest" into the discussion? Who is the troll here?

 

[LTfit]

I hesitate to wade in but for what it is worth ...
The Camino in origin and spirit is still also about the Compostella. (field of stars!) Please don't take that away! There are many motivations for the stamps and the Certificate but it has such a long history.

Actually not. The Compostela in it's current form was only introduced in the 1990's along with the 100 km requirement (conveniently in Galicia).

To think the solution is to get rid of the compostella which not only has such a rich, long history but culturally is so very important to the Spanish whose host country this is) This might be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak ...

I don't doubt that it is important to the Spanish but once again, the Compostela is a modern day invention.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Actually not. The Compostela in it's current form was only introduced in the 1990's

The 1963 model :

the Compostela is a modern day invention.

Only the mass printed one.

A 1785 Compostela :

The oldest known Compostela certificate is dated 1321, but the document was likely introduced in the late 13th Century.

The Archbishop of Santiago first ordered the printing of Compostela certificates in the beginning of the 17th Century :

HISTORIA DE LAS COMPOSTELAS

El libro publicado en edición digital es accesible a través de Amazon. Ha sido editado buscando una mayor divulgación con el menor ...

fernandolalanda.blogspot.com

Con la Imprenta se abaratan los costos, lo que propicia que el arzobispo compostelano don Maximiliano de Austria (1603-1614) mandara imprimir unos certificados para que su limosnero los repartiese gratuitamente a los peregrinos pobres, que visitasen la basílica.

“Desde cuya época se entregó por el Veedor costeados por la Fabrica, sin exigir retribución alguna”.
Las Compostelanas vienen impresas con los espacios en blanco para ser personificados, a mano, con los nombres de los peregrinos, y para consignar la fecha en la que se extiende cada una.


That is when the modern printed Compostela came into being.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

There are plenty other hiking routes in the world.

But not like the Frances, the Portugues or the Ingles, there isn’t.

A hike that is well-marked and well-maintained, not too technically difficult, where there are villages and cities with accommodations of varying comfort levels (or at all) and restaurants at most 25 kms or so apart, with cafes and food trucks and rest stops in between. If there’s something like that that’s not the Camino, I’d love to hear about it.

 

[TravellingMan22]

But not like the Frances, the Portugues or the Ingles, there isn’t.

A hike that is well-marked and well-maintained, not too technically difficult, where there are villages and cities with accommodations of varying comfort levels (or at all) and restaurants at most 25 kms or so apart, with cafes and food trucks and rest stops in between. If there’s something like that that’s not the Camino, I’d love to hear about it.

Agreed and that’s the key for me. What sets the Camino apart. Available to all ages, all level of experience, offering different ‘qualities of experience - luxury to sparse’, and for the most part budget friendly!

 

[trecile]

But not like the Frances, the Portugues or the Ingles, there isn’t.

A hike that is well-marked and well-maintained, not too technically difficult, where there are villages and cities with accommodations of varying comfort levels (or at all) and restaurants at most 25 kms or so apart, with cafes and food trucks and rest stops in between. If there’s something like that that’s not the Camino, I’d love to hear about it.

I completely agree. While I'm on the Camino people from other countries often ask me "why the Camino? Aren't there lots of long distance trails in the US?". I always tell them yes, but not with albergues every 20 km or so. The only thing that long distance trails in the US have in common with the Camino is that you use your feet for transportation. I'm not interested in extended wilderness hiking, camping, carrying a tent, all my food and water, etc. I like walking from village to village and experiencing the Spanish (and Portuguese) culture. I like spending time in the larger cities on the way.
For me, the Camino is traveling across a country by foot, not a hiking trip.

 

[Kathar1na]

Actually not. The Compostela in it's current form was only introduced in the 1990's along with the 100 km requirement (conveniently in Galicia).

A bit earlier perhaps. The format of the Compostela was adapted numerous times but there was a change in the content that is important, and it happened in the 1970s or 1980s. As one can easily see in older models, for example in the one from 1785 posted in this thread, these Compostelas confirmed that the holder had confessed, obtained absolution and received the Holy Eucharist. It was therefore, very obviously, a document that only Catholics could obtain. One can see that Confession and Eucharist are still mentioned in the 1963 model.

We will not find these words in a contemporary Compostela. They were dropped. It is a major and fundamental cut with pilgrimage and Compostela tradition. In this same period of time (1980s), there was also a change in vocabulary: The document or diploma had been referred to as the Compostelana and this changed to what it is now: the Compostela.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

BTW, if anyone would like to help me figure out how to structure a multi day walk in stages on the D&L trail in Pennsylvania, staying in towns and cities along the way, I’d love it.

D&L Map - D&L

This interactive D&L Map includes information on trail sections, towns and activities. Find all you need to bike, walk, run or hike the D&L today!

delawareandlehigh.org

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I completely agree. While I'm on the Camino people from other countries often ask me "why the Camino? Aren't there lots of long distance trails in the US?". I always tell them yes, but not with albergues every 20 km or so. The only thing that long distance trails in the US have in common with the Camino is that you use your feet for transportation. I'm not interested in extended wilderness hiking, camping, carrying a tent, all my food and water, etc. I like walking from village to village and experiencing the Spanish (and Portuguese) culture. I like spending time in the larger cities on the way.
For me, the Camino is traveling across a country by foot, not a hiking trip.

You speak exactly for me, and I hail from the USA, as well.

 

[Bradypus]

We will not find these words in a contemporary Compostela. They were dropped. It is a major and fundamental cut with pilgrimage and Compostela tradition

Sometime between the 1967 Compostela above and my first Camino in 1990. The version I received was superficially similar to that 1967 one posted by @JabbaPapa but without the mention of the sacraments. I believe the current version with the text about the minimum distances dates from 2014 or thereabouts.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

A bit earlier perhaps. The format of the Compostela was adapted numerous times but there was a change in the content that is important and it happened in the 1970s or 1980s. As one can easily see in older samples, for example in the one from 1785 posted in this thread, these Compostelas confirmed that the holder had confessed, obtained absolution and received the Holy Eucharist. It was therefore, very obviously, a document that only Catholics could obtain. Confession and Eucharist are still mentioned in the 1963 sample.

WAIT WAIT! Up above in this thread I was taken to task when I suggested that the Compostela was tied to receiving an indulgence. While I know that an indulgence and absolution are not exactly the same, certainly they are similar, no?

 

[Bradypus]

WAIT WAIT! Up above in this thread I was taken to task when I suggested that the Compostela was tied to receiving an indulgence. While I know that an indulgence and absolution are not exactly the same, certainly they are similar, no?

Confession and absolution have not been required to receive a Compostela for at least 34 years to my personal knowledge. And it has certainly not conferred an indulgence either.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

Confession and absolution have not been required to receive a Compostela for at least 34 years to my personal knowledge. And it has certainly not conferred an indulgence either.

Yes, but above in this thread I was speaking not to the modern Compostela but to its history. At least that was my intent.

 

[Kathar1na]

While I know that an indulgence and absolution are not exactly the same, certainly they are similar, no?

First of all, so that nobody misunderstands it: this is not "discussing religion". It is trying to understand the concepts of faiths other than one's own brand.

Absolution and indulgence are complementary. They are part of the Catholic teaching about the concept of sin. What is being joked about among Camino pilgrims, including on this forum, about these concepts (concepts that are not easy to understand if you'd ask me) is plain nonsense such as the popular idea that the Compostela (today's Compostela) is an entry ticket to paradise.

I hope we can leave it at that.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

First of all, so that nobody misunderstands it: this is not "discussing religion". It is trying to understand the concepts of faiths other than one's own brand.

Absolution and indulgence are complementary. They are part of the Catholic teaching about the concept of sin. What is being joked about among Camino pilgrims, including on this forum, about these concepts (concepts that are not easy to understand if you'd ask me) is plain nonsense such as the popular idea that the Compostela (today's Compostela) is an entry ticket to paradise.

I hope we can leave it at that.

Just so it is clear, I never meant to imply that the modern Compostela grants an indulgence.

 

[SabsP]

Reading material that might be interesting to some.

Absolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Indulgence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kathar1na]

Just so it is clear, I never meant to imply that the modern Compostela grants an indulgence.

And also to be clear, the earlier Compostelas were not documents that confirmed the granting of an indulgence either. The technical term for such a document is "Letter of Indulgence" and the earlier Compostelas were not letters of indulgence.

 

[dbier]

Absolution: the forgiveness of sin
Indulgence: a process by which one may relieve the burdens of sin, either for oneself or for the soul of one who can no longer seek that relief for themselves.

(I wrote this as SabsP was posting. )

During the last Holy Year (2021 and I assume 2022), it was possible to obtain a plenary indulgence if you walked the last 100km into SdC, obtained Compostela, and did all the other requirements needed. ( Go to Confession, receive the Eucharist, and pray).

 

[Kathar1na]

During the last Holy Year (2021 and I assume 2022), it was possible to obtain a plenary indulgence if you walked the last 100km into SdC, obtained Compostela, and did all the other requirements needed. ( Go to Confession, receive the Eucharist, and pray).

And it was possible to obtain a plenary indulgence if you arrived by bus, walked through the usual main portal on Praterias square, did not get a Compostela, and did all the other requirements needed. (Go to Confession, receive the Eucharist, and pray).

 

[JabbaPapa]

WAIT WAIT! Up above in this thread I was taken to task when I suggested that the Compostela was tied to receiving an indulgence.

When having confessed was a prerequisite for a Compostela, if you got your document on a day without an indulgence then there wasn't one.

Apart from that, someone going to the Cathedral and fulfilling the requirements on a day with an indulgence would obtain one, regardless of whether he obtained a Compostela or not.

They are entirely separate.

 

[dougfitz]

Apologies, it appears I may have inadvertently posted info from an article on the 'other' Santiago! I did specify Santiago de Compostela in my search for articles (there's so many of them that I just very briefly skimmed) but Google and I have a love hate relationship....

It seems unlikely, given the article that you have quoted, that A Coruna would be affected. Plus I'm not even sure that Santiago de Compostela could close A Corunas Port to tourist ships if it wanted to?

I actually can't find that reference now, I've been looking at so much stuff over the last hour it's not funny.

I've edited my post accordingly.

The only Santiago with a sea port that I can recall is Santiago de Cuba. It is the only one of the five major Santiago cities located on the coast. There are many more locations named Santiago. I didn't check how many were also ports.

 

[Precentrix]

There was talk in the news about the introduction of a tourist fee for Santiago. I don't recall which of the political parties floated the idea and whether they control the town administration at the moment. However, do tourist fees combat overtourism and reduce numbers of visitors? Or are their purpose more to generate income that can be used to improve conditions (protection of the environment, affordable housing etc) for the inhabitants of a popular tourist destination?

As to Santiago's "northern port terminal" and cruise ships - what does this refer to? It cannot be the port of Coruña, can it? This was published in April 2024:

El Puerto de A Coruña batirá récord de cruceros en 2024 y también en 2025

La ciudad es la que más barcos recibirá de toda la franja atlántica entre Lisboa y la Bretaña francesa. En los próximos 14 días recibirá la visita de 20

www.elespanol.com

There was a discussion... I think last week... on BBC Radio 4 about the introduction of a tourist fee in Venice during peak dates. They were intending to trial it either this year or next year, I can't remember. The proposed fee was only around 5 euros (Italy allows up to 10 euro 'tourist tax') and they wanted to impose it in the first instance only on certain peak dates.

The idea was that it would encourage people to avoid those days, but given that the bulk of pilgrims to Compostella, and especially those only walking the last section, pass through Galicia, and that the Camino in that part is fairly well organised by the central authorities, perhaps it wouldn't be unreasonable to impose a small fee which could go towards maintaining the necessary infrastructure? I'm not sure how much of a faff that would be administratively, but maybe simplest way would be to strongly encourage a donation of say 5 euros at the time of receiving the certificate at the tourist office, perhaps with organised groups paying a fixed fee in advance? And I mean strongly encourage a donation, because there will be people who can't afford that.

 

[Precentrix]

And it was possible to obtain a plenary indulgence if you arrived by bus, walked through the usual main portal on Praterias square, did not get a Compostela, and did all the other requirements needed. (Go to Confession, receive the Eucharist, and pray).

I mean, you can get a plenary indulgence by reading the Bible for 30 minutes, provided you fulfil the other requirements... The kicker is being free from all attachment to sin ;-)

 

[JabbaPapa]

There was a discussion... I think last week... on BBC Radio 4 about the introduction of a tourist fee in Venice during peak dates. They were intending to trial it either this year or next year, I can't remember. The proposed fee was only around 5 euros (Italy allows up to 10 euro 'tourist tax') and they wanted to impose it in the first instance only on certain peak dates.

They are trialling it this year, with the result that they have more tourists this year during the period in question than last.

Venice ‘more popular than ever’ despite €5 tourist tax - The European Magazine

Venice’s plan to cut visitor numbers with a €5 access fee has spectacularly backfired after it emerged more tourists are flocking to the Italian city than ever before The controversial entry charge was introduced last month in the hope of controlling the “unmanageable” volume of day trippers...

the-european.eu

The controversial entry charge was introduced last month in the hope of controlling the “unmanageable” volume of day trippers.

Tourists must pay €5 (£4.26) to enter the city’s historic centre on busy days until mid-July as part of the 29-day trial.

Overnight visitors are currently exempt from the entry fee as the tax is included in the accommodation charges of hotels and Airbnb rentals.

In high season, more than 80,000 visitors flock to St Mark’s Square and Venice’s other attractions. By comparison, the city has just 49,000 permanent residents.

But nearly a month on, the plan has been branded a “total failure” after revenue data showed visitor numbers are on the rise compared to the same period in previous years, according to The Independent.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

They are trialling it this year, with the result that they have more tourists this year during the period in question than last.

Venice ‘more popular than ever’ despite €5 tourist tax - The European Magazine

Venice’s plan to cut visitor numbers with a €5 access fee has spectacularly backfired after it emerged more tourists are flocking to the Italian city than ever before The controversial entry charge was introduced last month in the hope of controlling the “unmanageable” volume of day trippers...

the-european.eu

The controversial entry charge was introduced last month in the hope of controlling the “unmanageable” volume of day trippers.

Tourists must pay €5 (£4.26) to enter the city’s historic centre on busy days until mid-July as part of the 29-day trial.

Overnight visitors are currently exempt from the entry fee as the tax is included in the accommodation charges of hotels and Airbnb rentals.

In high season, more than 80,000 visitors flock to St Mark’s Square and Venice’s other attractions. By comparison, the city has just 49,000 permanent residents.

But nearly a month on, the plan has been branded a “total failure” after revenue data showed visitor numbers are on the rise compared to the same period in previous years, according to The Independent.

It is hardly surprising that numbers have increased despite the charge.

Let's face it for most tourists five euros is a piffling amount, they'll spend that on an ice cream or two. A small charge like this will never help decrease tourism, at best what it will do is help pay for the additional demands on the infrastructure.

United Nations World Tourism Organization prediticed in January that International tourism will rise by 15% this year, another report I saw suggested 18%.

The figures from Spain are currently sitting at approximately 18% (for tourism in general). Hardly surprising given that Spain is one of the top two touristed countries in the world.

 

[KevinWilcox]

They are trialling it this year, with the result that they have more tourists this year during the period in question than last.

As anyone who ever did a stats module will tell you, correlation does not equal causation.

It’s hugely unlikely that the introduction of the fee has itself caused the increase. It’s hugely likely that this is due to the unprecedented growth in tourism per se, which is affecting everything from climbing Everest to visiting my local botanical garden. Venice is a great example in the context of this discussion. I first went there 45 years ago, at the height of summer, and even then it was horrendously, unpleasantly busy. Yet when I was there in early April last year, it was wonderfully relaxed and relatively quiet. Timing is everything.

 

[JabbaPapa]

It’s hugely likely that this is due to the unprecedented growth in tourism per se

Well right, but it still means that the fee has had zero deterrent effect so far, contrary to some earlier claims thereto from the part of those that instituted it.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Well right, but it still means that the fee has had zero deterrent effect so far, contrary to some earlier claims thereto.

I always thought that those claims were simply 'whitewash' to help justify the fee.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I always thought that those claims were simply 'whitewash' to help justify the fee.

Well, that's what I think too, which doesn't bode well for these calls to "regulate" the Camino, which would with similar outcome be nothing more than a straight pilgrim tax.

 

[Kathar1na]

It’s hugely likely that this is due to the unprecedented growth in tourism per se, which is affecting everything from climbing Everest to visiting my local botanical garden.

And similar reasons apply for the growth rate of the number of Camino pilgrims. We are often keen to emphasise that Camino pilgrims are pilgrims and not tourists. Not surprisingly though, the growth rate of Camino pilgrims has followed the growth rate of tourists to Spain and within Spain over the years.

There are other general trends that fit into this picture: The travel sector of "slow travel" is growing. Or, a recent online article: There’s been a dramatic recent increase in shoulder season travel to Europe’s most popular destinations - particularly France, Spain, the UK and Italy, which is set to continue in 2024. When one looks at the statistics page of the Oficina del Peregrino one can see that this correlates at least with the number of pilgrims holding a Compostela: the Camino pilgrimage shoulder seasons see higher increases than the overall peak season which are the summer months (driven by Spanish pilgrims) while the shoulder seasons are more driven by foreign pilgrims.

There are also at least some European countries where hiking in the sense of rather relaxed hikes in nature - not wilderness - and close to cities, towns and villages sees continued growth and popularity.

 

[Kathar1na]

Published yesterday on Gronze.com (in Spanish): The other compostelas: 70 diplomas of pilgrimages scattered around the world or:

Las otras compostelas: 70 diplomas de peregrinaciones repartidas por el mundo

En octubre del año pasado publicamos un artículo donde repasábamos los diferentes certificados jacobeos, no solo aquellos que podemos solicitar tras llegar a Compostela sino también otros diplomas que

www.gronze.com

The article includes a summary and other info about the Camino de Santiago specific certificates.

As to the Compostela as a tool to regulate pilgrim numbers: Ask yourself how important getting a Compostela was for your Camino plans before you set out. Ask somebody who walks the famous last 100 km only how important it was for their Camino plans before they set out. Not a single person with a special motive - the majority, the typical Camino peregrin@s, those who make up the "overcrowd" or "the hordes" ...

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Well, that's what I think too, which doesn't bode well for these calls to "regulate" the Camino, which would with similar outcome be nothing more than a straight pilgrim tax.

Indeed. And that discussion is a multifaceted one.

On one hand, for some the camino is truly a pilgrimage. And should be supported and protected as such.

There are others for whom it is spiritually significant but not technically a pilgrimage as such.

Another faction exists for whom it is either a bucket list item or something to put on their CV. Or, simply, because they can.

Then there are the Long distance hikers who are simply doing it because it's another trail, albeit one with a massive amount of infrastructure (no tent or cooking Gear required).

You could break it down even more but I'm sure everybody gets the picture.

The first group aside, I see no issue with charging a pilgrim fee, or in another words, tourist tax. The same as any visitor pays (regardless of country of origin) whenever they visit major cities in many countries nowadays. It already exists in Spain - Barcelona for example - but is not yet universal. After all, we put significant strains on the local infrastructure.

But that would be incredibly unfair on less affluent members of that first group.

 

[Kathar1na]

Another post on the Compostela : Equating the contemporary Compostela with the medieval certificates issued by the Cathedral of Santiago is based on a misunderstanding. This is from F. Lalanda who is a collector of these certificates and has published several booklets on these topics and has also organised exhibitions of the documents he has collected over the years:

The old Certificates of Confession and Communion that were issued in the Middle Ages by the Cathedral of Compostela with the function of attesting to having visited the Tomb of the Apostle St. James and of attesting to the fulfillment of an imperative mandate such as a vicaría, or as a delegate, or in connection with a last will and testament, or as punishment imposed by a secular court or as a canonical penance. From the 1990s onwards, they were converted into an ornate diploma. This document serves as a souvenir and at the same time attests to having made the pilgrimage, in the traditional way, of no less than the last hundred kilometres of walking to Santiago de Compostela.​

​

TL;DR: The medieval "Compostela" was not issued to each and every pilgrim. They were issued to those who needed such proof for reasons that do not exist in modern times. In the 1990s, a change occurred: The contemporary Compostela is a souvenir for the individual pilgrim. And imho there is nothing wrong with souvenirs.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Indeed. And that discussion is a multifaceted one.

On one hand, for some the camino is truly a pilgrimage. And should be supported and protected as such.

There are others for whom it is spiritually significant but not technically a pilgrimage as such.

Another faction exists for whom it is either a bucket list item or something to put on their CV. Or, simply, because they can.

Then there are the Long distance hikers who are simply doing it because it's another trail, albeit one with a massive amount of infrastructure (no tent or cooking Gear required).

You could break it down even more but I'm sure everybody gets the picture.

The first group aside, I see no issue with charging a pilgrim fee, or in another words, tourist tax. The same as any visitor pays (regardless of country of origin) whenever they visit major cities in many countries nowadays. It already exists in Spain - Barcelona for example - but is not yet universal. After all, we put significant strains on the local infrastructure.

But that would be incredibly unfair on less affluent members of that first group.

The tourist tax must be for everyone who sleeps in Santiago no groups excluded .

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I think the only place that has effectively imposed a tourist tax is Bhutan, which has a daily sustainability fee of $200 (although I just read that post-pandemic it has been temporarily reduced in order to … increase tourism!) Of course, Bhutan is unique - an isolated mountainous country with just one airport and difficult-to-get-to land borders. I don’t imagine it would be overwhelmed by tourism even in the absence of the fee.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I think the only place that has effectively imposed a tourist tax is Bhutan, which has a daily sustainability fee of $200 (although I just read that post-pandemic it has been temporarily reduced in order to … increase tourism!) Of course, Bhutan is unique - an isolated mountainous country with just one airport and difficult-to-get-to land borders. I don’t imagine it would be overwhelmed by tourism even in the absence of the fee.

Not sure how you define it! It’s USD100 for nationals of most countries to get into the Galapagos Islands and is soon to double! The whole island is a designated national park so you are paying. ‘National Park entry fee’.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

Not sure how you define it! It’s USD100 for nationals of most countries to get into the Galapagos Islands and is soon to double! The whole island is a designated national park so you are paying. ‘National Park entry fee’.

I wasn’t thinking, really, about places like national parks. Even in the US, there’s a fee to enter many of them. But the Galapagos is certainly a high amount - and it also has the same qualities as Bhutan in that it is isolated and the “borders” easily controlled.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I wasn’t thinking, really, about places like national parks. Even in the US, there’s a fee to enter many of them. But the Galapagos is certainly a high amount - and it also has the same qualities as Bhutan in that it is isolated and the “borders” easily controlled.

Sure - I guess what I meant and I wasn’t clear was that you pay on on arrival at airport (as whole island is designated a national park!) even if you sit in your room for two weeks and don’t see a seal! It’s a good point you make.

 

[markie6]

Lots of places are introducing or have done a tourist tax. Lets be fair though, there are only a few places on any of the caminos where the locals are complaining and even they realise the number of jobs dependent on those incoming. Tax of some sort is the only way forward imho


What riles me though is the tourists complaining about the other tourists ...

 

[Pelegrin]

I think the only place that has effectively imposed a tourist tax is Bhutan, which has a daily sustainability fee of $200 (although I just read that post-pandemic it has been temporarily reduced in order to … increase tourism!) Of course, Bhutan is unique - an isolated mountainous country with just one airport and difficult-to-get-to land borders. I don’t imagine it would be overwhelmed by tourism even in the absence of the fee.

I paid it last month in Berlin and last year in Menorca.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I paid it last month in Berlin and last year in Menorca.

Yes, many cities add a “tourist” tax to hotel bookings (including bookings for people who travel for reasons other than tourism, such as business*). But they generally don’t do anything to actually reduce tourism - they are baked into what people perceive as the hotel cost, and generally not high enough to dissuade people from visiting.

*Bhutan doesn’t charge the tax for Indians, for example, because they are mostly crossing the border to do business.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

What riles me though is the tourists complaining about the other tourists ...

True, and sometimes we pilgrims fit the bill, too.

 

[KevinWilcox]

I don’t imagine it would be overwhelmed by tourism even in the absence of the fee.

I think it could have become another Nepal without the tax, and indeed this was the thinking behind the introduction of that tax (high value, low volume).

 

[trecile]

What riles me though is the tourists complaining about the other tourists

And pilgrims complaining about other pilgrims.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

In the USA, the "shoulder season" travel was always spring and fall, since schools were out June through August when families took vacation. Once my boys were out of high school my husband and I started traveling in the shoulder season and experienced a more relaxing time away from home.
As the past twenty+ years have clicked by, we notice shoulder season growth has mushroomed slowly, but surely.
I attribute some of the increase could be due to more people willing to take on credit card debt, but also due to the huge population of baby boomers, who have become more affluent over time as we have aged.
It seems there is almost no defined shoulder season of less busy travel any more, shifting to mostly to the colder months of winter.
Just an observation from my USA perspective, and I'm sure many other factors play into increased tourism all over the world.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

And pilgrims complaining about other pilgrims.

That was exactly my point....A pilgrim is still a tourist.

 

[Kathar1na]

Meanwhile, I had a look at what is actually happening in Santiago de Compostela with their tourist tax if anything.

It loooks like the tourist tax was proposed in August 2023 but the project has not yet made any advances. It is not clear whose fault it is, whether the new town administration has not pushed for it since the local election seven months ago or whether the regional government has not approved it yet because they are waiting for more information from the Santiago town administration.

The proposal of last year was for a tourist tax of €0.50 for staying one night in an albergue. Yes, 50 cents.

For other accommodation categories, the amount of this proposed tax is €1.50, €2, and €2.50 per night of stay, ending with €3 per night for five star hotels.