Ethics

[MARSKA]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

 

[VNwalking]

The desamortización de Mendizábal in the 19th C. didn't arise in a void.

And certainly the ordinary (and not so ordinary) people of Mesoamerica had less, because of all the gold flowing into Spain. Far less, with effects to this day. I think of that every time I see an ornate golden retablio.

We can't change the past (it's hard to know even in the present what to do about obscene wealth disparities). So being reminded of inequality and theft by the art and architecture that came from that? Yes.

But it doesn't affect the appreciation of what is beautiful.

 

[Gobsmacked by the World]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

 

[Paladina]

I would be concerned more with current inequalities in income and living conditions for which the Church is not primarily responsible. Few pilgrims travelling to Spain are likely to venture off the trail as far as the squalid encampment of Cañada Real. I am acutely aware that the Madrid hostel that provided me with a few nights’ affordable and very welcome lodging might be put to better use in housing the homeless in more dignified, safe and sanitary conditions.

 

[Bumpa]

We each approach this in our own way, from our own perspective. I am not sorting the different perspectives into a hierarchy.
It is true that most 'ordinary people' ( I quibble with that term) had less in order to create and I believe that this was good. In order to create a tribute to God, sacrifice is necessary, regardless of the religion. Even without religion, Kafka's parable about the necessity of the construction of the Great Wall of China comes to mind, as a means of binding all together. Their sacrifice is what elevated them from being ordinary.
The architecture which our civilization will leave behind is brutal enough to make Stalin cringe, and I do not see 'ordinary' people living lives of great dignity. For that matter...three hundred years from now, will anyone marvel at my efforts, as I do when I see the Burgos cathedral?

A more common feeling that I had seeing the cathedrals in Spain was one of sadness.
Moving through the cathedrals and monasteries, I felt that the language of what was involved is now barely intelligible and I could only pick up the vapors of what had been before. In Samos, the monastery there had at one time been a World centre in the field of theology and and philosophy with a famous library. Now it is just a galvanized corpse of what had been before, with perhaps a half dozen monks as groundskeepers. Who knows what undiscovered works lie in its library. In my weaker moments, I feel that the beliefs that created our civilization will soon be as indecipherable as Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Sorry for going down my own rabbit hole. I've had either too many, or not enough, ciders, LOL.

I am reminded of an experience with the Burgos cathedral. As I walked out the door with my eyes still dazzled by the ornate exuberance of the interior, I turned a corner. There I found a young woman, with a child in a stroller, going through the church's garbage dumpster. A whole different world separated by a wall.

 

[bullingtonce]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

Well, yes; on a superficial perspective this could well be true, but it is also one of the most beautiful, joyful, and spiritual manmade creations in human history. I can get a small glimpse of what it was like for a poor, struggling peasant to see such structures and to, hopefully, enter one. such architectural marvel.
The church had more because the church had more. Human history has always been one of suffering and inequality and will always be as we drive our Tesla vehicle and eat organic food while slavery still goes on, on a large scale, in this world--there are more slaves today than during the time of the Atlantic slave trade and people forget that were over 2,000,000 slaves during the Moorish times--many of them castrated so as to reduce the levels of slavery and, in tandem, increase the value of an individual slaves.
The good news is that, over time, the human race gradually improves/gradually gets better even though there are times when there is retrograde. There is no 'Good Ole Times' as the age we are living in is the best there ever was. It is said that common people have possess more now than a king did in the old days. And like you point out, the church had more then and the tech world/AI has millions of times more than the average person. Such will always be the case. Inequality is a permanent fixture of life and, oddly to say, should always be the case; otherwise, such marvelous creations (not 'creations' in the biblical sense) would never take place. The reason we have cures for cancer is due to inequality. Please keep inequality; I like cures for cancer. You will notice these almost miracle technological advances do not take place on a significant order of magnitude in socialist/communist governmental entities. Do not depend on a Venezuela or a Cuba to produce such marvels. Won't happen.
Take hope and appreciation that during those many centuries ago such wondrous and godly masterpieces were created. In the midst of all the suffering and wars going on during those times, came beauty, wonder, and spirituality--all speaking to striving to levels unimaginable that continues to this day.
My one cent's worth or maybe my 1/2 cent's worth. Chuck

 

[MesaWalker]

It´s no coincidence that the gold-leafed, baroque interior architcture in Spanish churches coincided with the riches flowing from the Americas. There must have been a sense of endless money at the time, and nearly nobody in Spain was worried about the plight of the peoples in the New World generating that wealth, except perhaps a few Dominicans out of Salamanca - very interesting display there. Between all the architecture and ill-fated military campaigns like the Spanish Armada, Spain must go down in the history books with maybe a few autocratic oil-rich countries as ultimately squandering immense wealth without really improving the lives of its citizens. The Catholic Church was squarely in the middle of it all

That said, the Church has done wonderful things, too. It´s true that it was important to a lot of people, rich and poor, that church spaces give a glimpse of the wonder and majesty of heaven otherwise missing from ordinary people´s live. It´s hard to reconcile that, especially from our modern mindset.

Personally, I admire some of the ornate churches like the cathedrals in Burgos, León, Santiago de Compostela, and maybe Sevilla, largely as magnificent art museums. If I want to feel closer to God, I look for the simple, original Romanesque churches.

 

[dougfitz]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

I think this is a rather simplistic, even naive, way to frame any discussion on this subject. The answer to your direct question, the Dorothy Dixer that you have proposed, is 'of course'. What you don't address:

• who were the ordinary people who contributed to the building and decoration of their local church? Were they local parishioners who willingly donated from the income they generated by farming, trading, etc in their town or region? Or were they someone who had ventured to the New World, Africa or Asia, and had built their wealth on the exploitation of the people and resources there?
• Or were they returning soldiers who had plundered in the New World. This appears to have been a common practice, not isolated to the Spanish and Portuguese, and practiced by armies across time. It would not then, or even quite recently, have been seen as anything but an honourable adjunct to soldiering and privateering to receive a share of any booty captured. Deplore it today if you will, but don't deny these historical realities.
• were these 'ordinary people' the more wealthy members of the community who sponsored major works like the altarpieces, religious works of art, or even the commissioning of a chapel in their name, as acts of devotion. One might debate the circumstances in which they were able to accumulate this wealth, but it often appears that what I might think of as ordinary people were not remembered for their contributions to these so-called 'ornate religious structures'.
• Just looking at these structures will not reveal whether those who made those contributions made other philanthropic contributions to their communities. My daughter's recent work on her family history has revealed that my grandmother spent part of her childhood in an orphanage funded by philanthropic contributions from the community. I suspect that many ordinary people contributed to similar causes throughout history, and there are well established patterns to promote that in most religions so far as I can tell.
• your question doesn't explore what roles religious buildings might have played in the community aside from their use as places of worship. In the age before printing and the spread of literacy as we know it today, the spoken word and drawings, paintings, sculptures, etc seem more likely to have been the mechanisms for recording and passing on the 'stories' that were at the heart of the societies that existed at the time.

 

[J.Patrick]

I can’t help thinking that this topic is venturing into forbidden forum territory, and presumes a distinction between “church” and town folk that is uninformed.

The “church” in a town is the people of that town. They built the beautiful building. It’s their beautiful building. It belongs as much to the village beggar who prays in it as it does to the priest who presides in it but does not own it.

 

[Dani7]

@MARSKA to answer your question, the opulence of the cathedrals I saw along the Camino Frances did not make me feel connected to a higher power or to feeling spiritual while inside or outside of them. They felt cold and disconnected from my Spirit.

The rural and smaller churches made me pause, and feel humble and grateful for being able to do the journey. They made me want to spend time there, at times to ponder…other times to pray. This is where I met the most gentle souls of nuns and volunteer caretakers, and this is where I felt at peace and oh so connected to myself. Being outside in nature, walking all day gave me that same peace.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I, like others, feel more "spiritually minded" and motivated for personal reflection in the small, austere and simple chapels.
That said, I am still always able to fully appreciate the beauty of the incredible cathedrals I visit. I marvel at the complex engineering details, and that men were able to execute the building of them hundreds of years ago using the archaic tools of that time.

 

[oursonpolaire]

Pre-Napoleonic Spain had a complex network of charitable institutions-- orphanages, hospitals, refuges for the agèd and poor. Many were funded and established by the confraternities-- we see them at passiontide lifting up huge crosses and towing floats. There were even confraternities for the enslaved and African freedmen, providing what was effectively insurance, both for life and burial, as well as mutual support. Most of them disappeared during the laicization of the 1820s, but then slowly became re-established.

The Spanish diplomat who had described (at length!!) this complicated world said that they happened at the same time and for the same reasons that huge sums were directed toward the elaborate decoration of churches. It comes from a period of intense religious feeling which is very foreign to how we think now.

My own preference is for the plain stone country churches in obscure pueblos, but that's me-- I was not one of the 17c hidalgos or newly-freed west African slaves of Seville, and I live at another time.

@dougfitz might like to know that Spanish diocesan archives contain much documention of the establishment of confraternities as well as the funding of churches and monasteries. As in England, church courts were responsible for probating wills, and most testaments laid out in detail the wishes and rationale of donors.

 

[RobertS26]

It's funny, I did not look at the churches on the Camino and think to myself, "Now that's a waste of money." Rather I looked at $200 carbon fiber hiking poles, $500 sunglasses, and designer day packs costing who knows what, and thought, "Now there is a waste of money."

 

[bigcaminolover]

I think this is a zero sum mentality: " did not ordinary people have less because the church had more" ... a beautiful church brings a lot of stability, wealth, peace etc. to a community ...

 

[Tincatinker]

‘Sfunny innit. I have from time to time looked at the various (Solomon R) Guggenheim institutions and thought “if he’d only paid his workers another few $/Francs an hour or even handed out the occasional Christmas bonus I wouldn’t have to discover his appalling taste in art and architecture in so many cities that were doing fine before that obscene wealth smeared itself all over everywhere all at once”.

@MARSKA, I’m not sure where your question is coming from but it might be the wrong direction. How come it took until 1937 before the impoverished and oppressed peasantry of Spain started to burn churches? - might have been a good question though not one for this forum.

You may have noticed that the poor always have less. The institutions that have more are usually more visible. The poor only become noticeable when they stop staying out of sight

 

[CWBuff]

Can i humbly interject that the Cathedrals were built (first and foremost, no matter what secondary reasons are) To The Glory Of God.
I was absolutely stunned by the beauty and vision of La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona! The opulence of Burgos is formidable, but of course pales in comparison of Basilica Papale di San Pietro in Citta di Vaticano...and at the same time the simplicity of Leon but also breathtaking with everything flying so high up...
I try not to theorize as to why, who, where and how did the $$$ come from (as @dougfitz mentioned above- good number of churches, cathedrals etc. were built with solid and sizable dotations of "ordinary people" that were shall we say slight better off). The world has yet to change, and I doubt that it ever will (much to our desire or chagrin - take your pick).
All I know is that if the finances were spent on something else - we simply would not have these beautiful buildings to marvel at.

 

[ParisOslo]

This is a YouTube video of the cathedral!

Impressive to say the least!

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I thought the Burgos cathedral was stunning and I really liked that the interior was quite light.
Leon's cathedral interior was much darker, but it had an unusually large amount of colorful stained glass windows throughout. I thought both were impressive, yet very different.

 

[RJM]

You are overthinking it, IMO.
If one were to remove all the gold and other precious things and sell them that amount of money would, in relative terms, be a pittance and not solve any poverty or disparity in Spain or the world as a whole.
Also, if all those extravagant displays bring in tourism which in turn brings in jobs and money for the local economy, then they have actually done a positive thing and paid for themselves many times over.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I love the beautiful old cathedrals, as well as the small parish churches, and I'm glad they are here. As I mentioned in a prior thread, this athiest Jew came closest to having a "religious" experience upon first seeing the Baldacchino in Rome.

Still, I don't think it wrong to view these buildings in the context of history, and remember that much of this wealth was stolen from indigenous peoples, that thousands of people died in their construction, and that many cultures and peoples have suffered greatly* under the guise of religious expansionism.

*e.g., Native Americans in the US West and Southwest; Jews in Spain and Portugual; etc.

 

[bigcaminolover]

Still, I don't think it wrong to view these buildings in the context of history, and remember that much of this wealth was stolen from indigenous peoples, that thousands of people died in their construction, and that many cultures and peoples have suffered greatly* under the guise of religious expansionism.

*e.g., Native Americans in the US West and Southwest; Jews in Spain and Portugual; etc.

And let's not forget: Christians in Spain (and elsewhere) under Islamic rule ...

With regard to 'stolen wealth from indigenous peoples,' in the context of the Spanish Empire, we have some work by historians Regina Grafe and Alejandra Irigoin that refutes this notion. They argue that the Spanish Empire was not an extractive empire but I believe it will take some time for this position to become mainstream history.

With regard to the statement 'thousands of people died during their construction,' I find it an interesting topic to explore. The mental image that comes to mind is one of thousands of worker-slaves in the Middle Ages, toiling day and night to build a cathedral, as dictated by the king and the pope. However, this mental image contradicts some historical facts. For example, the eight-hour workday was created in 1594 by the King of Spain, and it seems that medieval people had more time off than we do today.

 

[Tincatinker]

I have a notion that thousands of people died during the construction of most of these great edifices. Most of those great churches, palaces and fortresses took many decades, some centuries, to build. Lots and lots of people will have died over those years. Very few will have had anything to do with the building of Cathedrals. The Masons; Carpenters; Joiners and others who built those structures were experts in their trades. They knew what they were doing and did it well, and safely.

The image of the downtrodden serf stacking blocks with blood soaked mortar is as laughable as Charlton Heston’s Pharaohs flogging the Israelites all the way to the top of the pyramid.

Society in the Middle Ages wasn’t that different to our own. The plumbing might have been a bit dodgy by our current standards but at least they didn’t have the bloody internet to spread even more mythologies than the Priesthood.

 

[Tincatinker]

Apropos of nearly nothing but I refer m’learned friends to the sage words of Phil Gaston reflecting on this modern age and not the cruelties of the past:

The canals and the bridges, the embankments and cuts,
They blasted and dug with their sweat and their guts
They never drank water but whiskey by pints
And the shanty towns rang with their songs and their fights.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.
They died in their hundreds with no sign to mark where
Save the brass in the pocket of the entrepreneur.
By landslide and rockblast they got buried so deep
That in death if not life they'll have peace while they sleep.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.
Their mark on this land is still seen and still laid
The way for a commerce where vast fortunes were made
The supply of an empire where the sun never set
Which is now deep in darkness, but the railway's there yet.
Navigator, navigator rise up and be strong
The morning is here and there's work to be done.
Take your pick and your shovel and the bold dynamite
For to shift a few tons of this earthly delight
Yes to shift a few tons of this earthly delight.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

And let's not forget: Christians in Spain (and elsewhere) under Islamic rule ...

This thread is not about how we might feel upon viewing the Alhambra or the Taj Mahal. This deflection may make you personally feel better, but it ignores and belittles the actual suffering by those who were targeted by the Inquisition, the Expulsion of Jews, and the enslavement of Native Americans by Spanish Missionaries, all of which is very well-documented.

As for the thousands who died -- I did not say they were enslaved or forced to do the work. The fact is, though, that many workmen, skilled and unskilled, died in building those magnificent buildings, and it shouldn't be forbidden to give that a thought or two when marveling of them.

 

[bigcaminolover]

This thread is not about how we might feel upon viewing the Alhambra or the Taj Mahal. This deflection may make you personally feel better, but it ignores and belittles the actual suffering by those who were targeted by the Inquisition, the Expulsion of Jews, and the enslavement of Native Americans by Spanish Missionaries, all of which is very well-documented.

As for the thousands who died -- I did not say they were enslaved or forced to do the work. The fact is, though, that many workmen, skilled and unskilled, died in building those magnificent buildings, and it shouldn't be forbidden to give that a thought or two when marveling of them.

If the thread is "how we might feel upon viewing" the cathedrals on the Caminos, I'm ok to go with it.
The cathedrals of the Camino are my favourite cathedrals but I know that other european countries also have beautiful cathedrals. For example, Poland, Croatia, Montenegro, Georgia ..absolutely beautiful cathedrals and churches and these countries never had colonial empires. Spain would have had beautiful cathedrals even without its colonial empire.

 

[dick bird]

Spain would have had beautiful cathedrals even without its colonial empire.

That´s a good point, especially as most of Spain´s cathedrals were built well before Europe even knew the Americas existed (Baroque façades and chapels are a different matter of course)

I have a notion that thousands of people died during the construction of most of these great edifices

Thousands may be an exaggeration, but given that construction is even now one of the most dangerous industries, maybe not a great one. But if it had been that dangerous, they could have just walked off the job, they were free employees, not serfs or slaves and quite well paid in some cases (e.g. Master Mateo, William of Sens). This raises another issue: economic stimulus. The building of cathedral must have given a massive boost to local business, rather than wealth consuming, cathedrals may have been wealth generating.

I think this is a rather simplistic, even naive, way to frame any discussion on this subject.

Not really, it is simple, but most ethical questions are simple, it is the answers that are complex. We enjoy and benefit from visiting religious buildings, are we benefiting from someone else´s suffering and hardship? If 'yes', that is basically wrong unless there are mitigating circumstances, and it is a big 'if'.

The Americas were yet to be discovered and plundered, Jews were unwelcome but not officially persecuted before the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, Muslims were actually employed on many churches, local and itinerant artisans were employed, businesses and ancillary industries such as quarries and forestry were busy, so it was a win-win, no? Well not exactly. Every society generates wealth, but that wealth is not necessarily spent for the benefit of all its members. The decision makers in medieval times were the monarchy, the nobility, and the church and monastic hierarchy. They were not the wealth creators. They spent the wealth on grandiose and often self-aggrandising schemes and even worse on pointless and petty warfare, not to mention the Crusades.

So how do I feel when I stand inside Burgos cathedral? Pretty impressed, actually. The skill and craft is overwhelming, it is a stunningly beautiful building, as are all medieval cathedrals more or less. I spare a thought for the hardship of the common people, which I can't redress, but mainly I respect their achievement and artistry in creating this marvel.

 

[Bradypus]

So how do I feel when I stand inside Burgos cathedral? Pretty impressed, actually. The skill and craft is overwhelming, it is a stunningly beautiful building, as are all medieval cathedrals more or less. I spare a thought for the hardship of the common people, which I can't redress, but mainly I respect their achievement and artistry in creating this marvel.

A friend of mine visited Wells cathedral in the south-west of England today. He reminded me of my own visit there a few years ago when I looked down the central aisle for the first time and was stunned and frozen by the sight of the scissor arches supporting the central tower. I was gobsmacked at something which was simultaneously so monumental and beautiful and elegant and apparently so simple. At first I assumed it must be modern work but I soon discovered they dated from the 14th century and were an astounding solution to a difficult technical problem created by a 14th century master mason and architect - William Joy. I don't think I have ever felt such an instant powerful connection and admiration for a named individual from history before or since. One of those moments when one realises the truth of the notion that whatever our modern achievements may be they come from "standing on the shoulders of giants".

 

[NualaOC]

The “church” in a town is the people of that town. They built the beautiful building. It’s their beautiful building. It belongs as much to the village beggar who prays in it as it does to the priest who presides in it but does not own it.

That’s why I prefer the little ermitas to the cathedrals.

 

[Kathor1]

If the thread is "how we might feel upon viewing" the cathedrals on the Caminos, I'm ok to go with it.

I've been wondering whether this is indeed the purpose of the thread: "How does it make you feel when viewing these 'ornate religious structures'", and not a discussion of medieval economics and the finance plans and fund raising for the construction and maintenance of these cathedrals and other churches.

I also wondered what ornate religious structures means, and I guess it means what one mainly visits and views, namely the large and not so large cathedrals of the Camino Francés - Burgos, Leon, Santiago, Pamplona, Roncesvalles and so on - all of them Gothic or even Romanesque, i.e. all of them built, with a construction time often spreading over several centuries, and finished before the big changes in 1492; and then later during 1500-1800, their Renaissance/Baroque additions like the Obradoiro façade and the High Altar in the Santiago Cathedral and the huge retablo in the church of Navarrete - neither of them made of pure gold, just in case someone thinks so ;-).

Romanesque art, such as in cloisters, is presumably also included which was probably not cheap to produce either because the monasteries had to attract and pay skilled craftsmen. Maybe it is because the Baroque style (or rather its Spanish-Portuguese version) does not appeal to me that I never visited a Baroque church along the Camino Francés. There must be some.

And the ordinary citizens are presumably not the poor but the town people - again skilled craftsmen, tradesmen dealing with business partners all over Europe and the whole Med and into Asia, and their employees, and perhaps the lower nobility? All of them contributed to financing these buildings and they did so voluntarily. There was of course the tithe (but I don't know exactly how this was regulated in Spain), and the cathedral in Santiago had their income from their famous "voto de Santiago" system, and the better the relics and the fame of the cathedral the more income from pilgrims who also contributed voluntarily and often more than a fiver during collection time as today.

Since Burgos has been mentioned, but I don't know a lot about their economics and financing, wasn't the town quite rich in the Middle Ages (trade? with Flanders and England and France?). I vaguely remember having read that they had some 100 "hospitales" catering not only for pilgrims and other travellers but also for their own sick and poor people. These were most certainly also financed by voluntary donations, either made directly to the hospitals' founders or to church institutions and monasteries with precise specifications what the purpose of their donations is.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I am still always able to fully appreciate the beauty of the incredible cathedrals I visit. I marvel at the complex engineering details, and that men were able to execute the building of them hundreds of years ago using the archaic tools of that time.

So how do I feel when I stand inside Burgos cathedral? Pretty impressed, actually. The skill and craft is overwhelming, it is a stunningly beautiful building, as are all medieval cathedrals more or less. I spare a thought for the hardship of the common people, which I can't redress, but mainly I respect their achievement and artistry in creating this marvel.

Most of my interest in visiting European cathedrals and Basilicas is to take a look at and appreciate their beauty. I have seen this very interesting and fascinating documentary on what went into the building of them. Ken Follett's historical fiction "Pillars of the Earth" gave an insight into what the lives of those who built them was like.
Also, this one hour PBS documentary was extremely interesting with its insights on the building process of the cathedrals of old.

 

[Kathor1]

Going back to money and the "ethics" question, some more background information may be helpful for the discussion. The info quoted below must be basic common knowledge; it's in Wikipedia for example ("Construction of Gothic cathedrals"). The text refers to northern Europe, mainly France in fact, which was the cradle for this new kind of church buildings but it applies presumably also to Spain.

Motivation​

​

The 11th to 13th century brought unprecedented population growth and prosperity to northern Europe, particularly to the large cities, and particularly to those cities on trading routes. The old Romanesque cathedrals were too small for the population, and city leaders [some cathedrals were built and financed by the townspeople themselves] wanted visible symbols of their new wealth and prestige. The frequent fires in old cathedrals were also a reason for constructing a new building, as with Chartres Cathedral, Rouen Cathedral, Bourges Cathedral, and numerous others.​

​

Finance​

​

Bishops, like Maurice de Sully of Notre-Dame de Paris, usually contributed a substantial sum. Wealthy parishioners were invited to give a percentage of their income or estate in exchange for the right to be buried under the floor of the cathedral. In 1263 Pope Urban IV offered papal indulgences, or the remission of the temporal effects of sin for one year, to wealthy donors who made large contributions. For less wealthy church members, contributions in kind, such as a few days' labour, the use of their oxen for transportation, or donations of materials were welcomed. The sacred relics of saints held by the cathedrals were displayed to attract pilgrims, who were also invited to make donations. Sometimes relics were taken in a procession to other towns to raise money.​

The guilds of the various professions in the town, such as the bakers, fur merchants and drapers, frequently made donations, and in exchange small panels of the stained glass windows in the new cathedral windows illustrated their activities.​

​

I think that reducing these complex interactions and motivations and religiosity - in a society of a distant past that was so different to our times - to simply "the church had too much money and should not have taken it from ordinary citizens" is an oversimplification.

Oversimplied one could also say: Those ordinary people used some of their income and savings to obtain spiritual benefits from giving money to have a cathedral erected in their town. Nowadays ordinary people use some of their income and savings to obtain spiritual benefits from giving money to be transported to Spain and walk a Camino.

 

[VNwalking]

Since Burgos has been mentioned, and I don't know too much, wasn't the town quite rich (trade? with Flanders and England and France?) in the Middle Ages?

Yes. Burgos was the main hub of wool exports from Spain, contolled by a merchant guild centred there. I don't have access to all the journals with papers about this, but here's the abstract of one:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/097194580300600102

There's a lot to read out there, whole books.
A map showing trade routes from Burgos also shows quite a familiar inland route :
(From <https://historylab.es/trade-routes-and-customs-in-the-exterior-of-burgos-1469-1559/>)

 

[Stephan the Painter]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

Interesting question.The churches and religious buildings are objects of craft and art. And they should be enjoyed as such. We can't change the past( unless you start thinking about making financial reparations).

I say enjoy the artistic qualities of these structures with no guilt and focus on changing the present.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Interesting question.The churches and religious buildings are objects of craft and art. And they should be enjoyed as such. We can't change the past( unless you start thinking about making financial reparations).

I say enjoy the artistic qualities of these structures with no guilt and focus on changing the present.

A simply stated, yet great answer, Stephen, imo.

 

[JabbaPapa]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

Discussion of Religion.

Truth is that historically, those "ordinary people" are the very ones who brought up the beauty of these churches.

You are assuming a divergence between Church and Church that is anachronistic. The Church is the Communion of all of the Faithful. The Wealth of the Church is the Faith of the Faithful.

 

[JabbaPapa]

nearly nobody in Spain was worried about the plight of the peoples in the New World generating that wealth, except perhaps a few Dominicans out of Salamanca - very interesting display there. Between all the architecture and ill-fated military campaigns like the Spanish Armada, Spain must go down in the history books with maybe a few autocratic oil-rich countries as ultimately squandering immense wealth without really improving the lives of its citizens. The Catholic Church was squarely in the middle of it all

Or perhaps they may have been more worried about slaver raids from the Barbary Coast or elsewhere.

I find your accusations against the Church and against Spain (!!!) to be facile and shallow.

ordinary people

In the eyes of the Church, nobody is "ordinary", but everyone is beloved and extraordinary.

The beauty of these churches is an expression of that love for God certainly, but also for each and every one of us individually.

These Cathedrals lift us up, not push us down. The Camino lifts us up, there's no real difference.

 

[MinaKamina]

OK- I am still digesting my 2023 and 2024 experiences. I ask a question - how do you feel about the ornate religious structures? I struggle. Although beautiful, did not ordinary people have less because the church had more?

I am really curious.... why worry about something that you can literally change nothing about because all involved are long gone. and meanwhile, every time you look at your phone, do you struggle since the people who mine the minerals for that phone have so much less because phone owners have so much more?

 

[RJM]

I am really curious.... why worry about something that you can literally change nothing about because all involved are long gone. and meanwhile, every time you look at your phone, do you struggle since the people who mine the minerals for that phone have so much less because phone owners have so much more?

Ditto....cellphone (or any electronic device, GPS, television etc.), backpack, shoes, clothing, sunglasses, sleeping bag and so on. If you look at the countries of origin you see that they are manufactured, mined etc. by people who indeed live marginally, low wages, long hours. Even foods such as those that use palm oil. Palm oil production destroys rainforests, which in turn destroys multiple species of animals, birds, reptiles etc. You eat a bag of crisps that used palm oil, and you've basically contributed to the death of an orangutan. It's the way the world does things now. I can't change it and whilst I wish it wasn't that way; there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to put on a hairshirt or self-flagellate.

 

[MARSKA]

I am really curious.... why worry about something that you can literally change nothing about because all involved are long gone. and meanwhile, every time you look at your phone, do you struggle since the people who mine the minerals for that phone have so much less because phone owners have so much more?

Wow! Lots of interesting and informative comments.

Somehow VNwalking was credited with this quote. It should be MinnaKamina. My apologies.

Since you are really curious ... I do not worry about such things ..... I just ponder. Consider. Think. Roll things around in the glorious organ - the brain.

And of course you and many other posters here are correct about the serious issues we face in our own time here on earth.

I was just wondering....I spend much of my time wondering these days. One of the things I wonder about is what kinds of things other people wonder about. The Camino opened the flood gates of wonder.

 

[CWBuff]

@MARSKA , @MARSKA , @MARSKA - (I think we played this "game" long time ago )
So now, You're The Wanderer? cause You're The Wanderer?

Believe me I understand the sentiment. but as so many stated... its practically for naught and at the very east will\can get you upset (and even feel guilty for something you carry no guilt of)
So... wonder about something else. Is it possible for a boat with a headless body to navigate the treacherous waters of Mediterranean Sea and come to W. Coast of Spain?!

 

[David Tallan]

Jews were unwelcome but not officially persecuted before the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella

Jew were not officially expelled until the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, but to say that there was no official persecution until then does not, I think, correspond to the historic record. There were a number (and an increasing number) of official persecutions in different reigns of the various Iberian kingdoms before they were unified by Ferdinand and Isabela and before the expulsion of 1492.

 

[bigcaminolover]

Jew were not officially expelled until the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, but to say that there was no official persecution until then does not, I think, correspond to the historic record. There were a number (and an increasing number) of official persecutions in different reigns of the various Iberian kingdoms before they were unified by Ferdinand and Isabela and before the expulsion of 1492.

Jews were very welcome to stay even after 1492 as long as they genuinely accepted Catholicism. The issues were were with jews who did not accept christianity or with fake converts who were practicing Judaism in secret but claiming to be christian ..

 

[dick bird]

Jews were very welcome to stay even after 1492 as long as they genuinely accepted Catholicism. The issues were were with jews who did not accept christianity or with fake converts who were practicing Judaism in secret but claiming to be christian ..

Forced conversion? Threatened with (and often punished by) execution for practising your religious faith? If that isn´t persecution, I don´t know what is.

 

[VNwalking]

Forced conversion? Threatened with (and often punished by) execution for practising your religious faith? If that isn´t persecution, I don´t know what is.

My thoughts too. What a welcome!

 

[JillGat]

The desamortización de Mendizábal in the 19th C. didn't arise in a void.

And certainly the ordinary (and not so ordinary) people of Mesoamerica had less, because of all the gold flowing into Spain. Far less, with effects to this day. I think of that every time I see an ornate golden retablio.

We can't change the past (it's hard to know even in the present what to do about obscene wealth disparities). So being reminded of inequality and theft by the art and architecture that came from that? Yes.

But it doesn't affect the appreciation of what is beautiful.

I agree that the church hoarded wealth while the average people lived in poverty. But I wonder, if like me (even though I don't share their faith), people were inspired and in awe of the magnificent cathedrals, with the ancient statues, organs, etc. It must have given them a sense of eternal glory. To me, it is a testament to the extraordinary faith people must have had, to build those impossible architectural wonders.

 

[Kathor1]

“Ethics” ….

Pilgrimage to Santiago and the “ornate religious structures” belonged together, have the same roots, come from the same eras, had the same purposes (your salvation, your soul in the Christian meaning, being free of sin in the Christian meaning).

Those who appear to have concerns about the cathedrals and chapels because of their wider historic context and events - the bad things that happened, the progroms in Spain, the monarchs’ edict of 1492, the economic exploitation of the colonies, the missionary drive, evangelisation - do you have the same concerns about pilgrimage?

Pilgrimage did not happen and develop in a vacuum, in a context free space.

Or do you manage to separate walking today’s Camino de Santiago from the darker aspects of a distant past but can’t do the same for today’s religious buildings? They, or their purpose, also changed: They are now open to all to visit, and one of their function today is that they are places to be visited and to be admired for their art and their architecture and no longer exclusively places to pray for Catholics.

 

[Kirkie]

Wonder. A wonder-ful word. It costs nothing, actually. Enjoy it. Do not conflate it with a modern usage of awesome. Awesome is magnificent! It does not describe a nice breakfast.

 

[Kathor1]

Since Burgos was mentioned a couple of times: larger towns have more than one church. Below is a link to a number of them with names and photos. You can see that there are modern churches, no doubt without extensive ornate decoration inside. You don’t have to go to the big name Cathedral for prayer or meditation. You don’t have to go to mass in the Cathedral in Santiago, there are numerous other churches in the town. You have a large choice.

Descubre todas las iglesias en Burgos Capital | BurgosTop !

Descubre la riqueza histórica y arquitectónica de las iglesias en Burgos, desde la majestuosa Catedral de Santa María hasta las románicas.

burgos.top

 

[dougfitz]

Jews were very welcome to stay even after 1492 as long as they genuinely accepted Catholicism. The issues were were with jews who did not accept christianity or with fake converts who were practicing Judaism in secret but claiming to be christian ..

So people who had been Jewish were welcome if they converted to Christianity, but were otherwise not welcome. Those who converted were now no longer Jews! So Jews were not welcome!

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I am really curious.... why worry about something that you can literally change nothing about because all involved are long gone. and meanwhile, every time you look at your phone, do you struggle since the people who mine the minerals for that phone have so much less because phone owners have so much more?

Maybe because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it?

Jews were very welcome to stay even after 1492 as long as they genuinely accepted Catholicism. The issues were were with jews who did not accept christianity or with fake converts who were practicing Judaism in secret but claiming to be christian ..

Jews who become Catholics are no longer Jews.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

“Ethics” ….

Pilgrimage to Santiago and the “ornate religious structures” belonged together, have the same roots, come from the same eras, had the same purposes (your salvation, your soul in the Christian meaning, being free of sin in the Christian meaning).

Those who appear to have concerns about the cathedrals and chapels because of their wider historic context and events - the bad things that happened, the progroms in Spain, the monarchs’ edict of 1492, the economic exploitation of the colonies, the missionary drive, evangelisation - do you have the same concerns about pilgrimage?

Pilgrimage did not happen and develop in a vacuum, in a context free space.

Or do you manage to separate walking today’s Camino de Santiago from the darker aspects of a distant past but can’t do the same for today’s religious buildings? They, or their purpose, also changed: They are now open to all to visit, and one of their function today is that they are places to be visited and to be admired for their art and their architecture and no longer exclusively places to pray for Catholics.

It is not an “either/or.” You can very much appreciate the workmanship, beauty and religious devotion that went into creating the Cathedrals, and the devotion that did and still does go into creating the Camino routes and the community that surrounds them, while acknowledging and reflecting on the less noble (and dare I say, less Christian) aspects of their history.

 

[VNwalking]

Maybe because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it?

Yes. As we are all finding out...again.

Or do you manage to separate walking today’s Camino de Santiago from the darker aspects of a distant past but can’t do the same for today’s religious buildings?

There's a lot of compartmentalization happening in the world right now. Including that.

 

[Kathor1]

It is not an “either/or.” You can very much appreciate the workmanship, beauty and religious devotion that went into creating the Cathedrals, and the devotion that did and still does go into creating the Camino routes and the community that surrounds them, while acknowledging and reflecting on the less noble (and dare I say, less Christian) aspects of their history.

Sure, one can reflect on all sorts of things while sitting in a Gothic cathedral.

However, the OP asked about income inequality, about the financial and material investment for construction and maintenance of these buildings and their interior where “ordinary people had less” because of this.

So in this context of the thread, referring to the saying that history might or will repeat itself if forgotten, does not appear to be a logical continuation of the conversation.

Interesting in this context might be the current Spanish taxation model: (for simplicity, a quote from Wiki): The Spanish tax declaration form has a checkbox that allows the taxpayer to allocate 0.7% of their taxes to support the Catholic Church. This checkbox does not influence the total taxes paid; leaving the checkbox blank allocates the same money for general purposes.

I understand that a church tax system is alien to some members of the forum. The USA does not have it. I don’t know about Canada, Australia and New Zealand nor about all of Europe but a number of European countries have such taxation systems. I do like the Spanish version better than other European versions I know of.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

Sure, one can reflect on all sorts of things while sitting in a Gothic cathedral.

However, the OP asked about income inequality, about the financial and material investment for construction and maintenance of these buildings and their interior where “ordinary people had less” because of this.

So in this context of the thread, referring to the saying that history might or will repeat itself if forgotten, does not appear to be a logical continuation of the conversation.

Interesting in this context might be the current Spanish taxation model: (for simplicity, a quote from Wiki): The Spanish tax declaration form has a checkbox that allows the taxpayer to allocate 0.7% of their taxes to support the Catholic Church. This checkbox does not influence the total taxes paid; leaving the checkbox blank allocates the same money for general purposes.

I understand that a church tax system is alien to some members of the forum. The USA does not have it. I don’t know about Canada, Australia and New Zealand nor about all of Europe but a number of European countries have such taxation systems. I do like the Spanish version better than other European versions I know of.

As to your first point, I disagree. Wealth inequality is a huge issue throughout the world these days, and people are starving because of it. Thinking about whether the expenditure of money on maginificent edifices and the chapels within them (which were certainly as much vanity pieces as they were devotional) rather than on feeding and housing the poor might lead one to reconsider whether to fund a building in a university or private school instead of, say, donating to an organization that provides free medical care for people living in poverty, and thus addressing wealth inequality.

As to your second point, the US doesn't have it as the First Amendment precludes the establishment of any state religion and as interpreted (for now at least) the entwinement of government and religion. While Spain also hasn't, technically, had a state religion since 1978, a cooperative relationship between the state and the Catholic Church is still expressly recognized in the Spanish Constitution. Personally, I bristle at having this option -- or at least, having only one option -- but then again, I'm an American and not a Catholic, and I don't really know if the Catholic Church in Spain spends that money to the benefit of all Spaniards or just the Catholic ones (or the ones they are trying to convert to Catholocism).

 

[Tincatinker]

Take this to a private discussion please. You are both pushing the boundaries of the rules of this forum.

And, from my lived experience, you are both making assertions that you may reassess with regret.

 

[C clearly]

Time to close this discussion.

(Some posts have been deleted.)