Why do pilgrims fly to Pamplona.

[MickMac]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

 

[henrythedog]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

 

[MickMac]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

Assume its about climbing the Pyrenees and suffering.

 

[Guneyd]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

 

[trecile]

Assume its about climbing the Pyrenees and suffering.

I like the stage from SJPDP to Roncesvalles for the stunning views. I've never suffered while walking it.

 

[C clearly]

I haven't heard that it is a very common approach. I can only assume the connections and timing seemed convenient for them, or they weren't aware of all the options. I doubt there is any more interesting reason.

 

[sugargypsy]

In my case: The travelling costs to Biarritz would have been twice as high as to travelling to Pamplona. In addition to that, there were no direct flights. I would have had to fly to Biarritz via Paris whereas to Pamplona there was a direct flight. That's why I didn't see any advantage in it, both in terms of time and money.

So it probably always depends on your personal circumstances which airport you choose as your point of arrival.

Apart from that, being from Europe, I would actually have liked to travel by train. Because that would have been the cheapest way and would only have taken 1 1/2 hours longer than the flight. But as strikes were announced, I chose the flight.

 

[dougfitz]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

I am puzzled why you would think others were not able to make logical decisions about their travel arrangements based on what route they take to SJPP. I have walked from there twice, once arriving from Pamplona, the other from Bayonne. Neither time did it make any sense to fly into Bairritz. I suppose we all judge others based on our own criteria, but it does seem odd to be so openly judgemental on such narrow criteria.

 

[JabbaPapa]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

The reason I've heard, back in the 90s, why it's called the Francès is because the French founded many villages along the route, and for a time French was spoken in those villages -- until their descendants began speaking Spanish instead.

So if that's correct, it's not about starting in France, but it's because of a historic French presence on that route.

BTW if you go via Valcarlos, you only officially reach the Francès at the Ibañeta Pass, as the Saint-Palais to Ibañeta section is called the Voie de Navarre.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

There used to be as many as five buses a day to SJPdP from Pamplona so connections were easier. Old web pages kept hanging around and so it still looks like the bus is the way to go.

 

[J Willhaus]

Might be cheaper for some people. Also more strikes in France in recent years. You may be coming from a country where it is cheaper to travel that way?

My first Camino we traveled through Paris to and back to the US. Have gone through Madrid since. Better connections.

 

[Kathor1]

That’s why:

They don’t live in Europe; there are no direct flights to Biarritz for them; there are no direct flights from Madrid, Barcelona and Porto to Biarritz; and long-distance flights (there and back) to one of these three international airports in Spain or Portugal is the best option for them as to cost in time and money - better than to Dublin, London, Paris or Frankfurt.

And like next to everybody else on the forum they want to walk over the Pyrenees at least once before they join the crowd who says that you don’t have to start in SJPP …

Direct flights to Biarritz:

 

[MickMac]

In my case: The travelling costs to Biarritz would have been twice as high as to travelling to Pamplona. In addition to that, there were no direct flights. I would have had to fly to Biarritz via Paris whereas to Pamplone there was a direct flight. That's why I didn't see any advantage in it, both in terms of time and money.

So it probably always depends on your personal circumstances which airport you choose as your point of arrival.

Apart from that, being from Europe, I would actually have liked to travel by train. Because that would have been the cheapest way and would only have taken 1 1/2 hours longer than the flight. But as strikes were announced, I chose the flight.

What's your starting point ?

 

[MickMac]

I am puzzled why you would think others were not able to make logical decisions about their travel arrangements based on what route they take to SJPP. I have walked from there twice, once arriving from Pamplona, the other from Bayonne. Neither time did it make any sense to fly into Bairritz. I suppose we all judge others based on our own criteria, but it does seem odd to be so openly judgemental on such narrow criteria.

Sorry Douglas did not mean anything by it, just a purely simple question from a purely simple person

 

[Robo]

I think for those who fly in from overseas to Madrid, Pamplona then St Jean could make sense.

For those flying in to Paris, Bayonne, St Jean can make more sense.

All depends what flights you prefer and can get and the port of Entry to Europe.

 

[Kathor1]

There used to be a direct flight between Frankfurt and Pamplona but that is long gone. There are only two direct flights to and from Pamplona now: Madrid and Gran Canaria.

Pamplona Airport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MickMac]

There used to be a direct flight between Frankfurt and Pamplona but that is long gone. There are only two direct flights to and from Pamplona now: Madrid and Gran Canaria.

Pamplona Airport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is there not a direct flight from Madrid to Biarritz ? Thought seen on arrivals at Biarritz.

 

[Kathor1]

Is there not a direct flight from Madrid to Biarritz ? Thought seen on arrivals at Biarritz.

No, there aren’t any direct flights from Madrid to Biarritz. Use the airports’ own websites or Skyscanner or a similar website if you want to check for yourself.

PS: I see on the French Wikipedia that there used to be a direct connection Madrid-Biarritz. It has ceased to exist. Is that why you started the thread - because you thought that such a direct flight still exists?

 

[Corned Beef]

Going slightly off subject, I was looking at Voie de Tours, getting as far as Tours then flying back to the UK. Then starting again etc.

Seems that depending on the day of the week the cheapest flights would route me through Porto (nice place), or Marseilles (never been) or Marrakesh (would love to go). All for a 300 mile return journey.

Airline routing seems to be a enjoyable lottery of places you might never see again.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Going slightly off subject, I was looking at Voie de Tours, getting as far as Tours then flying back to the UK. Then starting again etc.

Seems that depending on the day of the week the cheapest flights would route me through Porto (nice place), or Marseilles (never been) or Marrakesh (would love to go). All for a 300 mile return journey.

Airline routing seems to be an enjoyable lottery of places you might never see again.

Well Marseille is a great place to visit!! As in Marrakesh is you can stay over a few days.

 

[Kathor1]

And slightly more to the point , this is what Skyscanner came up with for a flight from Madrid to Biarritz on Monday - two days from now:

• The fastest flight takes 4h 15min with a stopover in Geneva and costs €531.
• The "deal" or "best" flight costs €192 and takes 5h 35min with a stopover in Lyon.
• The cheapest flight costs €143 and takes 58h 50 min with 3 stopovers in Palma de Majorca, Bordeaux and London Stanstead.

So yeah let's fly as much as we can and keep all these connections profitable or at least viable, especially for short distances - a win win for all, no doubt.

 

[Pafayac]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

Yes. Strictly speaking, the Camino Frances starts in Puente-la-Reina, thus in Spain.
It has been called "Frances" because it is the main route for pilgrims coming from France.
Indeed, at the beginning of the Camino, French knights were precious to help Spanish warriors agains the Moors.

 

[David]

The 'starting point' of the Camino is an odd one really .. the first pilgrims stepped out of their home and walked to Santiago .. eventually joining a common pilgrim 'road' with others, for protection in a dangerous and turbulent country ... now, with transport we can train or fly or ship to get onto Camino, but surely our Camino 'starting point' is where we join it?
If we ship to Bilbao then there we are, on the Norte .. if we fly to Pamplona well there we are, on the Frances at Pamplona ...
but now it seems to have fixed starting points .. St Jean, Le Puy, etc ... the truth being that the first physical step of our pilgrimage to Santiago is when we step out of our front door.

My first I was living in France and started at Moissac as it had a railway station so was easy to get to and it has always seemed odd to me that someone should arrive on Camino (say, airport Pamplona) then bus or taxi upstream on Camino so that they can then walk back.

 

[C clearly]

The OP asked a question that seemed to be about transportation logistics.

And like next to everybody else on the forum they want to walk over the Pyrenees at least once before they join the crowd who says that you don’t have to start in SJPP

 

[David]

The OP asked a question that seemed to be about transportation logistics.

I disagree. The OP asked "why" (not how) - as in, why go onto Camino at Pamplona and then go 'back' to start further away when they could land in France and be in a downstream flow to and onto Camino - so surely it is their "why" that is relevant rather than transport logistics?

 

[Kirkie]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

Are you more or less puzzled now? Good luck.

 

[Kathor1]

Quick thread summary:

1. The first question (slightly rephrased) was this: Why do those who want to start in SJPP fly to Pamplona and go from Pamplona to SJPP, i.e. travel "back" to SJPP? Why do they not fly to Biarritz and take the train to SJPP?

This was quickly enriched by further questions as well as other musings. The further questions were:

• Why start in SJPP?
• Should you still call it French Camino when you don't start in France?
• From where did @sugargypsy fly to Pamplona?

Note: Don't rush to reply to this post. Some questions have been answered in the previous 26 posts.

 

[C clearly]

so surely it is their "why" that is relevant

True, but that same "why" question could be asked about any of many transport routings. The simple answer is that people almost always pick their routes on the basis on their understanding of connections, convenience, timing and cost.

If we are asking about motives for starting point, why not ask that more directly? As it is, we have answers about routing logistics and others about the history of the Camino Frances, and maybe soon about the meaning of life. "Why" questions can be like that!

I guess I have swallowed the bait.

 

[t2andreo]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

I assess that it is easier to fly into Madrid, then connect to Pamplona, than to fly into Paris. That is how I would do it.

If you are traveling solely within Spain, then you probably want to try to stay on Iberia, for seamless connections.

This is especially true for those of us traveling to Spain from outside Europe.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[Glenshiro]

I think that strictly speaking it's the way of the Franks, as France as we now know it did not exist until sometime after the camino began. What we now call France was then known as West Francia and was inhabited by people known as the Franks, originally a Germanic tribe who expanded south and westwards in the Middle Ages.

 

[Pingüigrino]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

If you were a local living in Spain would you call it the Spanish way?
Maybe you'll call it the way from France, or the french people's way.
In Spanish, el Camino Francés, the French Way, is what have sense .

 

[dfox]

Assume its about climbing the Pyrenees and suffering.

In addition to what have been mentioned, e.g., it's a "French" way, its scenery beautifu. For me, it is to challenge myself, physically and mentally. It also gives me bragging right ;-)

 

[babikeski]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

Because Pamplona is easy to reach, especially from the US and then there is a noon bus to take pilgeams to sjpdp.

 

[mattythedog]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

If it’s good enough for Martin Sheen, it’s good enough for me.

There used to be a nonstop flight Madrid to Biarritz which I could piggyback onto my frequent flyer flight from USA for no extra charge. It landed Biarritz about 1100. I could be in SJPP by 1300 and trek right to Roncesvalles. No brainer.

Now I piggyback a nonstop to Pamplona and share a taxi to SJPP. Easy 2.5 hour stroll to Valcarlos Albergue, and it’s never full.

 

[JerryStroebele]

Flew to Madrid Sunday. Train to Pamplona Monday. About 30 euros. Taxi to Eunate Tuesday 40 euros to avoid a third walk over the Alto de Perdon. Weather is delightful. Buen Camino

 

[Rmarkob]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

I took a train to Pamplona (via Zaragoza) after flying to Madrid from the USA in 2021. I took the train because it would have been an extremely tight flight connection in Madrid and I probably would not have been able to make the 1400 bus connection to SJPP that was available then if I had to take a later flight.

Typically it's more economical to buy a round trip transatlantic ticket than to buy a one-way ticket to one city and return ticket from another city. I was planning to spend some time in Madrid after the CF, so that's where my r/t ticket was to and from.

For my next CF, maybe I'll do the Paris r/t itinerary and connect to Biarritz, since I have friends in Paris who have invited me to visit. I see that Vueling has a direct flight from Santiago to Paris CDG, but that's not something I looked into three years ago.

Another factor for me in deciding whether to fly to Madrid or Paris (if I didn't have plans in Europe after the Camino) is cost, schedule, and departure airport from the US East Coast. It's a 2-3 hour drive to Dulles (DC), Philadelphia, and Newark/NYC for me, so I have options.

 

[SusanWW]

Because Pamplona is easy to reach, especially from the US and then there is a noon bus to take pilgeams to sjpdp.

Yes, and that ALSA bus is easy to book, reliable and inexpensive.

 

[sillydoll]

Before the borders were changed, St Jean Pied de Port was the capital of Lower Navarre and a playground for the Navrese Kings. Don Elias Valiña, father of the modern Camino, starts his Camino Frances guide at both Borce - for the Somport Pass - and St Jean Pied Port (used to be St Michel) for the Ibaneta Pass. Three of the 4 French routes, from Paris, Le Puy and Vezelay, join the GR 65 at Gibraltar and continue to Ostabat and St Jean Pied de Port. [20024 photo at the Stele of Gibralta with the 4 arms pointing at the paths converging there.]

 

[J Willhaus]

Yes, and that ALSA bus is easy to book, reliable and inexpensive.

The daily bus to SJPDP only runs in the summer months. Pilgrims must either cab to SJPDP or take a bus to settle for starting at Roncesvalles like many Spanish the rest of the year. The bus to Roncesvalles runs daily year round.

 

[SusanWW]

I’m not sure when the bus stops running from Pamplona to St. Jean-de-Port but I took it yesterday, Sept. 27, 2024.

The daily bus to SJPDP only runs in the summer months. Pilgrims must either cab to SJPDP or take a bus to settle for starting at Roncesvalles like many Spanish the rest of the year. The bus to Roncesvalles runs daily year round

 

[Scott Sweeney]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

Flying into Paris and taking trains is cheaper more logical to me. But then that's us.

 

[Kathor1]

I’m not sure when the bus stops running from Pamplona to St. Jean-de-Port but I took it yesterday, Sept. 27, 2024.

It was mentioned in another thread recently: October 17, 2024 is the last day that the ALSA bus will run from Pamplona to SJPP. So no buses until sometime in March or April 2025. A remarkable number of pilgrims appear to go by taxi from Pamplona to SJPP.

A Buen Camino to you!

 

[dick bird]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

There would be even less reason to call it the ´Francés´ if it were in France. Flying to Pamplona seems strange too, there are good bus and train connections from all over Spain. I think a lot of people don´t really research very well. They organise a flight to Madrid then try to figure out the best way to get to SJPdP from there rather than the best way to get to SJPdP from wherever they live.

 

[trecile]

Typically it's more economical to buy a round trip transatlantic ticket than to buy a one-way ticket to one city and return ticket from another city.

You can often buy a multi-city, aka open jaw ticket to fly into one city and home from another for much less than two one way tickets, and about the same price as a round trip, aka return ticket.

 

[J Willhaus]

For the coming Frbruary, we bought a ticket to Rome, them a ticket from Madrid to home for April 23. We got a cheaper ticket on Iberia from Rome to Madrid for the in between. Much cheaper than one way tickets to and from.

 

[brian560]

I think for those who fly in from overseas to Madrid, Pamplona then St Jean could make sense.

For those flying in to Paris, Bayonne, St Jean can make more sense.

All depends what flights you prefer and can get and the port of Entry to Europe.

From memory, the train timetable from Madrid to Pamplona wasn't too friendly. I got into my hostel at 1 am

 

[J Willhaus]

Several trains per day to Pamplona. Not, just a late train.

 

[Rmarkob]

You can often buy a multi-city, aka open jaw ticket to fly into one city and home from another for much less than two one way tickets, and about the same price as a round trip, aka return ticket.

Good to know - thanks!

 

[Keikochan]

Assume its about climbing the Pyrenees and suffering.

As a first timer, I started from Roncesvalles 10 years ago for the same reason as MickMac stated and I walked from SJPP this year crossing Pyrenees in June. It was wonderful! Luckily, weather was fine, flowers all over, and such a gorgeous view! So glad to have done it! Hard climbing but no suffering. So don't miss it. You can sprit it into two days as I did at Borda.

 

[Walkalong]

People start to walk in Pamplona, or Roncesvalles, because they are perfectly rational places to start.

What goes through ones mind when one thinks it's a good idea to start a 700-800 km walk with 1400 meter elevation gain on the first day? Flagellation?

I've never met any people who "settle" for starting in Roncesvalles, but I've met many people exhausted by the walk from SJPP with serious injuries that hamper them for days/weeks to follow.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think that strictly speaking it's the way of the Franks, as France as we now know it did not exist until sometime after the camino began. What we now call France was then known as West Francia and was inhabited by people known as the Franks, originally a Germanic tribe who expanded south and westwards in the Middle Ages.

No that's incorrect. Spanish Francés comes from an old Provençal/Occitan Francés which meant specifically French by opposition to Frankish, which was and is designated using the different words Franc and Franco.

This distinction then spread throughout the Romance languages, and very early into Spanish.

The French distinction Franc = Frankish and Français = French is what's pertinent here, not some old etymology. Spanish Francés = French ; Franco = Frank/Frankish.

Because whatever the reason might be why it's called the Camino Francés, the word here means French and NOT Frankish. It's not the "Camino Franco".

 

[MickMac]

Thank you for all replies it appears it's easier to go to Pamplona in summer months from outside of our EU.
Great enlightened discussion we are all better of informed.

 

[JLuis]

That, and is there any reason left to call it the Frances if you start somewhere in Spain?

It is the Camino of the Franks. Like the Camino Portugués, the Camino of the Portuguese.

 

[JerryStroebele]

I don’t care what it is called. I is DELIGHTFUL and I am fortunate to be on it again right now. Buen Camino

 

[David Tallan]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

I think it is because St. Jean is the nearest place with relatively easy transit connections to the Spanish border and to where the three routes from Paris, Vezelay, and Le Puy join (by Ostabat). That probably led to it becoming the place that most modern guidebooks start from. Since the guidebooks start there, many pilgrims want to do the same thing.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I think it is because St. Jean is the nearest place with relatively easy transit connections to the Spanish border

Wouldn't that be Biarritz/Bayonne/Hendaye ?

and to where the three routes from Paris, Vezelay, and Le Puy join (by Ostabat).

Gibraltar/Xibaltare is part of Uhart-Mixe.

Anyway, despite numerous variant routes that will have existed and that are known about (and there is one variant route from Le Puy that leads to Ostabat), the most likely main route from Le Puy will have been via Saint-Palais, through Aroue, Etcharry, Domezain etc., so those three routes most likely joined each other by the town hall there.
.

That probably led to it becoming the place that most modern guidebooks start from. Since the guidebooks start there, many pilgrims want to do the same thing.

The major route from Paris & Tours actually went via Bayonne > San Sebastián > Vasco Interior > Burgos.

As far as I can tell, it shifted towards Saint-Palais > SJPP after French and Navarrese Authorities started cracking down on the pilgrimage in about the 18th Century, from trying to stop military age men from leaving the country. So pilgrims from Paris started using the old smugglers' routes instead of the main coastal road.

The Le Puy and Vézelay routes did always OTOH pass through Saint-Jean-le-Vieux, then after its founding SJPP.

It is the Camino of the Franks

It is not the "Camino Franco".

 

[dougfitz]

BTW if you go via Valcarlos, you only officially reach the Francès at the Ibañeta Pass, as the Saint-Palais to Ibañeta section is called the Voie de Navarre.

I seem to recall discussing whether the Camino Frances started where the Navarre and Arogonese routes joined near Puenta la Reina. I recall this being the practice in reading I was doing before my first Camino in 2010, and might also have been described like that in my Brierley guide to the CF, but I don't have access to it right now to check.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I seem to recall discussing whether the Camino Frances started where the Navarre and Arogonese routes joined near Puenta la Reina. I recall this being the practice in reading I was doing before my first Camino in 2010, and might also have been described like that in my Brierley guide to the CF, but I don't have access to it right now to check.

In the 1990s, both routes from SJPP via the Napoleon Route and from the Somport were called the Camino Francés.

 

[Jodean]

Have started twice in Pamplona and twice in SJPDP. I prefer the latter for the scenery and the feeling of accomplishment.
Flying from Frankfurt, Pamplona needed an extra flight from Madrid. With the train, I can go from Frankfurt to Paris, then Bayonne, then SJPdP. Time spent is about the same. I prefer the train though.

 

[dougfitz]

In the 1990s, both routes from SJPP via the Napoleon Route and from the Somport were called the Camino Francés.

That seems consistent with the track naming used by the Federación Española de Asociaciones de Amigos del Camino de Santiago on their website, which shows them as:

ES01a	Camino Francés por Navarra	​
ES01b	Camino Francés por Aragón	​
ES01c	Camino Francés

 

[Roland49]

Assume its about climbing the Pyrenees and suffering.

I don't get the myth of suffering on the Pyrenees!
It was a lovely walk, not to bad.
Depending on weather I would rather choose the Valcarlos than the RN.
But that's a choice that every pilgrim have to do for themselves.

Did fly into Biarritz, was the fastest (and cheapest) connection from hometown via Paris.

 

[RRat]

Something puzzles me why do people fly to Pamplona then travel back to SJPP would Biarritz be more logical ? then train from Bayonne.

Airline cost from USA to Paris or Madrid is about the same. My Spanish is better than my French.

 

[Anhalter]

Let's add the question:

Why don't people fly to San Sebastian instead of Pamplona?

It has a lot more connections and it actually might be easier to get to SJPDP from there....

 

[Barbara]

How about we refuse Credentials ( and, by extension, Compostelas) to anyone who uses an aeroplane, motor vehicle, train or steamship for any part of their outward or return journey?

 

[GaTeach]

There’s not much in it either way and it partially depends on which connection you can most easily get from your start point.

I’m more puzzled with the fixation with starting in St Jean; a fair number of Spaniards would consider Roncesvalles as a start point whilst I, having started in St Jean twice have, since then started in Pamplona.

Oh my goodness crossing the Pyrenees is one of the most magical parts of the Frances. I'm so glad I challenged myself to do it! Twice!