Abandoned elderly pilgrims

[Dov of the Galilee]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

 

[MinaKamina]

Next time this happens, please use the Alert Cops App and inform them that an elderly gentleman / woman is about to collapse / fall into a ravine / whatever. The Guardia Civil will take care of this person, and probably also of the family (but in a different way).

For crying out loud! If the fit and active family members take a rest and wait for the elderly person to catch up, they will remain fit and rested and the other person will only get more exhausted every time.

 

[bullingtonce]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.


Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.


One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.


I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.


It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

It also could be about the nature of human beings. Being surprised that a wild animal might cause one harm is naive. Being surprised at the depths of human depravity and evil . . . , well, God is not surprised; why should we be. This is why so many old people die along, estranged from their family brothers. Human nature--so cool at times; at other times, well . . .
Chuck

 

[Caomhin O Fearghaill]

It's abuse, important to name it.

 

[alhartman]

The ugly side of "Its my Camino"

 

[Rebekah Scott]

Having walked with a few elder pilgrims, and told in harsh terms to "get on with it, I will catch you up," I have learned to let adults make their own choices. So far no one has called the cops.

 

[K_Lynn]

Berating someone is always rude and uncalled for.

I would have liked to walk into the next town to wait for my much slower sister when we walked Ingles last year but she's terrible at directions and I was worried she'd miss a turn. I spent a lot of time waiting for her to catch up. It was incredibly frustrating. We all have our own preferred walking speed and stride length. It is physically painful for me to walk at less than 2km/ph which is my sister's max speed. She has balance and vision issues and for her own safety should never do another Camino or even a day hike again - she has been going on day hikes this year and has fallen every time (I get to hear about it later as we live thousands of km apart).

I don't think it's abandonment to walk on ahead. I have met many people of all ages that walked ahead of their partners or parents and met up later in the day and everyone was happier for not having to rush or slow down for the other.

Many people die or are injured on Camino every year. Most of us underestimate our abilities and limitations. The Camino is hard. Some 86 year old peregrinos can walk the legs off much younger people, some cannot. Everyone needs to assess their own abilities prior to heading out.

 

[Charles Ross]

We walked for a couple of day with an elderly gentleman, Peter, a German out of Hamburg. He was 86. I would say his abilities were marginal. One night he was in a top bunk in a different room from us and fell out! He was embarrassed but unhurt. He was a slow but steady Pilgrim. We were on the outskirts of Los Arcos when he needed to rest and we separated. I felt bad that we did not continue to walk with him but I realize since that we were simply part of a group of Pilgrims that were helping him along the way. He was with someone before and I hope he was with someone after! He would call his wife every day, always calling her his 'kline Schatze' (little treasure), she would respond 'Du bist verruckt' (you are crazy!) We wish him well wherever he is.

 

[KFH]

Depends on the person(s).

I know seniors who have a complete overestimation of their physical ability and a complete underestimation of their irascibility, who, if on the Camino, would bark for whoever was with them to go on ahead.

I know adults who wouldn't give a second thought at dropping their elderly parents on the trail-- then wait at a bar for them to catch up-- and then get up to leave five minutes after their parents made it to the bar.

But I'd say the majority of adult/senior combos are pretty reasonable to each other, have a good sense of their abilities, and keep their human tendency of selfishness mostly in check.

I'm helping my 85 year old friend walk from Sarria this fall, and I intend to not let him out of my sight, even though he is mentally sharp and relatively fit for his age. If he wants to walk alone, I will literally hide behind trees to keep an eye on him if I have to lol.

 

[KariannNor]

We walked for a couple of day with an elderly gentleman, Peter, a German out of Hamburg. He was 86. I would say his abilities were marginal. One night he was in a top bunk in a different room from us and fell out! He was embarrassed but unhurt. He was a slow but steady Pilgrim. We were on the outskirts of Los Arcos when he needed to rest and we separated. I felt bad that we did not continue to walk with him but I realize since that we were simply part of a group of Pilgrims that were helping him along the way. He was with someone before and I hope he was with someone after! He would call his wife every day, always calling her his 'kline Schatze' (little treasure), she would respond 'Du bist verruckt' (you are crazy!) We wish him well wherever he is.

View attachment 177662

1) WHY was this gentleman in the top bunk? Who the h.. did not offer him her/his down one?
2) This is why many of the bunks on Camino is life-threatining! No railings and you do not have a choice!

 

[Charles Ross]

1) WHY was this gentleman in the top bunk? Who the h.. did not offer him her/his down one?
2) This is why many of the bunks on Camino is life-threatining! No railings and you do not have a choice!

There were other younger people in the room with him. We found out that he did indeed ask others to switch. I guess no one was willing

 

[Mycroft]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

This story touched my heart, Dov.
I am glad you were a blessing to this man, and that you were placed in each others' paths at the right time.

As an older person (I cannot get myself to use the term 'elderly' just yet!), I understand the dangers of walking alone, but that's how I've travel since my younger days. I do not have strength, speed or stride--never have. It's pure stubbornness that gets me through.
A couple of years ago, I started having trouble with my knee, and last year with my achilles tendon and bursa, as well as plantar fasciitis. Happily my fasciitis has cleared up. An incompetent physical therapist seems to have ruined my knee. After two months of PT (different therapist) on my achilles, plus obediently not walking for two months, my tendonitis seems to have lessened, but within 10 minutes of starting to walk, it flares up. The thought of not being able to walk another route saddens me more than I can say.
However, back in March, I chose to walk from Sarria to Santiago (Camino Addiction). Each step was excruciating, but my stubbornness kicked in, and I made my way very slowly. The last couple of days, I walked slower and slower, and I have no doubt that the charming Australian couple who decided to walk with me was the reason that I was able to make it to Santiago in a timely manner. They could have arrived there within a few hours, yet in their kindness, chose to help me through, distracting me with conversation. (In gratitude, I still periodically send them good thoughts and blessings.)

It is a treasure to meet Camino Angels.

While I agree that adults are responsible for their own decision, I wonder what these families are thinking when they plan a Camino with folks who may have trouble walking for whatever reason. I wonder if they have pilgrimaged before. I wonder if they thought to discuss how they would handle slower and faster walkers. Maybe at home they agreed it was fine with everyone to walk at his own pace and catch up later, but en route, never checked how that was working out. I wonder if they were unrealistic in their discussions. I wonder if they know they must stay well-hydrated to prevent dizziness and keep all systems going. I wonder if people realize the harshness of their words, and if their past and present resentment is controlling them.

Our Caminos are our own, and I hope we all are open to its lessons.

 

[TravellingMan22]

There were other younger people in the room with him. We found out that he did indeed ask others to switch. I guess no one was willing

I always message ahead and ask for a lower bunk. Reasonable amount of success and nothing to lose. One hostel manager said she qelcomed the message as it was useful when they were putting her ‘sleeping plans together as they had no ideas of peoples ages, mobility so it’s a blank sheet alert form group size. .

Maybe older or folks with an injury / disability could try that. Many people won’t give up their seat on a bus/train so not too hopeful folks giving up a lower bunk.

 

[Madamjoy]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

It’s difficult to know if the 85 year old man insisted his family go ahead. As I get older (72 now) I cherish my independence and ability to hike solo. At what point will I not be able to walk solo or have to stop altogether? I walked a bit with a wonderful woman, Dorothea, aged 92, in 2017. She did her own thing.. walked about 10km a day and in the evenings join her daughter (who walked ahead) somewhere for dinner etc. one day Dorothea decided to take a few extra days to volunteer at the archeological site She was having the time of her life and I want to be Dorothea when I grow up.

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

Maybe the 85 year old insisted his family go ahead so that he could feel some sense of freedom or independence? As I age (72 now) I relish my ability to keep walking and hiking solo. I do wonder at age will I need a walking companion or, worse, have to stop entirely? In 2017 on the CF I met Dorothea, a 92 year old. She averaged about 10km a day, taking in everything, making friends, and in the evenings would meet up with her daughter. At one point Dorothea decided to take a few days off to volunteer at the Atapuerca site and afterwards continued her Camino. I want to be Dorothea! I am lucky to be able to keep trekking and to plan more adventures. Imo, it would be a blessing to die from hiking too much (enjoying life) than to spend my elderly years growing feeble in a nursing home.

 

[Dov of the Galilee]

There is a phrase that came to mind from my younger military days "you're only as fast as your slowest man". If you set out as a family unit that's what you should travel as IMHO.

Incidentally has anyone come in contact with Linda from Canada? She has severe issues going on and was last seen by us going back to Fromista.

 

[Faire]

I always message ahead and ask for a lower bunk. Reasonable amount of success and nothing to lose. One hostel manager said she qelcomed the message as it was useful when they were putting her ‘sleeping plans together as they had no ideas of peoples ages, mobility so it’s a blank sheet alert form group size. .

Maybe older or folks with an injury / disability could try that. Many people won’t give up their seat on a bus/train so not too hopeful folks giving up a lower bunk.

I am 66 and fit. The albergues would always try ro get me a bottom bunk. I felt on the camino, age was respected.

 

[trecile]

There is a phrase that came to mind from my younger military days "you're only as fast as your slowest man". If you set out as a family unit that's what you should travel as IMHO.

I disagree. It depends on the group and what the agreements they made with each other before starting on the Camino.

 

[Camo]

I do wonder at age will I need a walking companion or, worse, have to stop entirely?

I walked (solo) at age 75 (after major heart surgery at 71) on the Greek Islands but was very mindful of my limitations and tried to avoid taking on paths "away from help" if needed.

Now at 80 I am happy to "walk" on my computer as even my weekly walk around the supermarket is hard work. My experience suggests that each individual will have an age when their body will tell them when the time has come to stop walking distances.

 

[Corned Beef]

Was the (no-so) elderly parent twice this year. With my son on the Via Francigena nel Sud and with my daughter on the Via Francigena in Switzerland. Both times they went ahead as, believe it or not, younger people are faster.

But everyone has failed to mention the joy of walking with your children and introducing them to the caminos.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

What an unpleasant story !!

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

All of the families I've come across so far on pilgrimage, whether in Spain or Portugal, have been looking after their elderly first, as you suggest.

Including a few who were happy to push their grannies along in their wheelchairs, with smiles on their faces.

What you're describing is abuse pure and simple.

 

[JabbaPapa]

A couple of years ago, I started having trouble with my knee, and last year with my achilles tendon and bursa, as well as plantar fasciitis. Happily my fasciitis has cleared up. An incompetent physical therapist seems to have ruined my knee. After two months of PT (different therapist) on my achilles, plus obediently not walking for two months, my tendonitis seems to have lessened, but within 10 minutes of starting to walk, it flares up. The thought of not being able to walk another route saddens me more than I can say.
However, back in March, I chose to walk from Sarria to Santiago (Camino Addiction). Each step was excruciating, but my stubbornness kicked in, and I made my way very slowly. The last couple of days, I walked slower and slower, and I have no doubt that the charming Australian couple who decided to walk with me was the reason that I was able to make it to Santiago in a timely manner. They could have arrived there within a few hours, yet in their kindness, chose to help me through, distracting me with conversation. (In gratitude, I still periodically send them good thoughts and blessings.)

Things are tough for me as well, for different reasons, I'm not in danger if I'm alone, It's just slow and painful.

And whilst I almost never need help of that sort to keep along, on some occasions when other pilgrims have slowed down to accompany me as I hobbled along, it certainly made the going easier !!

While I agree that adults are responsible for their own decision, I wonder what these families are thinking when they plan a Camino with folks who may have trouble walking for whatever reason. I wonder if they have pilgrimaged before. I wonder if they thought to discuss how they would handle slower and faster walkers. Maybe at home they agreed it was fine with everyone to walk at his own pace and catch up later, but en route, never checked how that was working out. I wonder if they were unrealistic in their discussions.

It's true that people aren't always honest to each other, nor honest even with themselves, and pilgrims with mobility issues should be honest about them -- including if they vary from one day to the next, and from one surface to another. But those walking with disabled and/or older pilgrims should still take care and pay attention to the difficulties and needs that they may have, or might not as the case may be.

 

[GettingThere]

younger people are faster.

Wee-ell... not always! I have walked the Camino Francés three times with my mother, and on two of those trips she (age 79 and then 81) was considerably faster than me (aged 48 then 50)! I would be trudging along and she'd be disappearing around the next bend, probably chatting away to someone. I have numerous photos of her back.... She would stop and wait for me occasionally! So if anyone saw her walking alone on the Camino, it wasn't due to being left behind!

Unfortunately on our third Camino she was much slower and while still keen to be there, found the walking difficult and we eventually had to stop. It would not have occurred to me to go marching off ahead, unless she had insisted I did so. We just walked slowly together, as we continue to do, in different ways.

 

[hugocast]

Every group has their own dynamic, I think this should be discussed beforehand. Walking speeds, what do you want to get out of the experience, do you want to have some alone time to think while walking, how do we communicate, what do we do in an emergency, etc. I would have this conversation way before embarking on the trip. If you live in the same town even go on day hikes together beforehand.

There will still be a thousand micro decisions to make together, but having a clear idea of expectations will help folks a long way.

Something practical: I did Ingles with my Wife and something I found useful was sharing our live locations on WhatsApp. That way if anyone wants to have some alone time to think, they know how much they need to walk or wait to reconnect with the other person.

 

[Sue127]

Was the (no-so) elderly parent twice this year. With my son on the Via Francigena nel Sud and with my daughter on the Via Francigena in Switzerland. Both times they went ahead as, believe it or not, younger people are faster.

But everyone has failed to mention the joy of walking with your children and introducing them to the caminos.

totally agree. Walking for 2 weeks with my 15 year old grandson in 2022, from SJPP to Burgos was a pleasure. I don't class myself as a 'old' granny, but he is much fitter. After Pamplona, and getting used to çamino walking, I told him to walk on ahead, if he wanted. He met younger pilgrims to chat to and often waited after a long ascent. It was a great chance to spend some time with him and watch him grow in independence. He is doing an apprenticeship now and tells me that he is saving up so that he can walk the entire Frances.

 

[JenCook]

This story touched my heart, Dov.
I am glad you were a blessing to this man, and that you were placed in each others' paths at the right time.

As an older person (I cannot get myself to use the term 'elderly' just yet!), I understand the dangers of walking alone, but that's how I've travel since my younger days. I do not have strength, speed or stride--never have. It's pure stubbornness that gets me through.
A couple of years ago, I started having trouble with my knee, and last year with my achilles tendon and bursa, as well as plantar fasciitis. Happily my fasciitis has cleared up. An incompetent physical therapist seems to have ruined my knee. After two months of PT (different therapist) on my achilles, plus obediently not walking for two months, my tendonitis seems to have lessened, but within 10 minutes of starting to walk, it flares up. The thought of not being able to walk another route saddens me more than I can say.
However, back in March, I chose to walk from Sarria to Santiago (Camino Addiction). Each step was excruciating, but my stubbornness kicked in, and I made my way very slowly. The last couple of days, I walked slower and slower, and I have no doubt that the charming Australian couple who decided to walk with me was the reason that I was able to make it to Santiago in a timely manner. They could have arrived there within a few hours, yet in their kindness, chose to help me through, distracting me with conversation. (In gratitude, I still periodically send them good thoughts and blessings.)

It is a treasure to meet Camino Angels.

While I agree that adults are responsible for their own decision, I wonder what these families are thinking when they plan a Camino with folks who may have trouble walking for whatever reason. I wonder if they have pilgrimaged before. I wonder if they thought to discuss how they would handle slower and faster walkers. Maybe at home they agreed it was fine with everyone to walk at his own pace and catch up later, but en route, never checked how that was working out. I wonder if they were unrealistic in their discussions. I wonder if they know they must stay well-hydrated to prevent dizziness and keep all systems going. I wonder if people realize the harshness of their words, and if their past and present resentment is controlling them.

Our Caminos are our own, and I hope we all are open to its lessons.

There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker, a bit like the rule when you walk on the road that you should walk facing the oncoming traffic !

 

[r utter]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

That's sad but at the same time companions split on the Camino due to different speeds, outlooks, interests without factoring in age. So maybe the elderly person needs to stick with their journey and the youngsters need to stick with theirs.

 

[trecile]

There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker,

Perfectly understandable for a wilderness trek, but the Camino Francés is not bush walking. If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.

 

[DoughnutANZ]

It's abuse, important to name it.

What! Do you mean that I have to wait for my slow poke children to catch up

 

[JabbaPapa]

There is a rule when you go bush walking/ hiking in a group that you go as fast as the slowest walker

That's mostly daily hiking speed not metres per minute -- though clearly if there's someone in your group who's having difficulties, one in the group should hang back and take care or at least ensure the other is doing OK. When I was a fast walker, in the groups I've been in that would be me -- it's actually easier as a fast walker to do that, as you'll be in a better position to act if needed. And technically, walking at a slow pace is easier for faster walkers than moderate walkers who are more in need of keeping up their pace over the distance.

None of these considerations however can justify berating your parents or grandparents for being too slow, or abandoning them to fend for themselves when they have genuine mobility issues.

 

[NualaOC]

Let's not infantilise older or less able pilgrims.
I've often felt uncomfortable when members of a group or family (including the so-called camino families) treat each other in ways I find unkind or inappropriate. I try to remember that this is just one moment in the behaviour and dynamic of that group.

We don't need to go into rescue mode if we think a pilgrim is having a tough time. Empathy, presence and kindness trump judgement and criticism.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

None of these considerations however can justify berating your parents or grandparents for being too slow, or abandoning them to fend for themselves when they have genuine mobility issues.

We don't need to go into rescue mode if we think a pilgrim is having a tough time. Empathy, presence and kindness trump judgement and criticism.

If someone is walking slow, especially from old age or an injury, whether it's a friend or relative, a big dose of patience to wait for them or slow down yourself if necessary is needed.
In general, on the Camino, even discussions of expectations ahead of time at home will not mimic actually being there.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.

This is true. When walking past an "old" person who seems to be alone, there is no reason to assume that they are necessarily faltering and being left behind by loved ones who are racing on ahead.

 

[lalaone]

I find myself and loved ones in this valuable conversation. Elders absolutely deserve dignity, including recognition that they are in many cases are hardier than the youth. On the Camino, I was so often impressed by septuagenarians and octogenarians who were like billygoats.

It is a good reminder to talk first as a family. In my experience it can be hard for the younger generations to recognize when help is necessary - you look up to elders so much and remember them as younger. In the case of my grandmother, she seemed simply invincible. She had traveled, she had hunted and walked the woods. So when she came to visit on my first trip to Europe, when she was almost 90, it was not immediately evident that the steps of Paris metro stations were too exhausting. We learned quickly. She wasn’t able to do what either of us imagined but we had the best memories, in the end, sitting in churchyards feeding birds.

I’ve also been on the other side, travelling with friends and their family to Europe, and being out of pace in the middle part of 3 generations. Thinking the elders needed help when they did not, friends our own age walking ahead of their parents with no worries (my husband and I were the only ones worried, and were upset that our friends didn’t seem worried about how often their parents almost slipped on wet cobblestones with only us there to catch them), and being castigated for taking the granddaughter on a short morning walk when her parents and grandparents were occupied and distracted. I’ve definitely learned that families have different ways of communicating, sometimes full of incredible love even when it does not look or feel like it from the outside of their family unit. Even when it sounds cruel, it could be joking or kind. For a Camino, I truly hope and trust that it is one of those things a family is on top of, and it’s really valuable to talk to walking mates beforehand if you can.

 

[Anamiri]

As a normally fast walker I find it is hard to adjust your speed down to a much slower speed. It takes physical effort, as your legs go on automatic, and its hard not to go to your normal stride. However when walking with someone injured or older I make an effort not to race off. I wouldn't abandon them.

But I've also been on the other end, being injured and walking slower. I don't like to hold people up, and am often happy to be left alone, but it can be nice to have someone to talk too, and take your mind off pain. The kms go by faster that way.

 

[KFH]

As a normally fast walker I find it is hard to adjust your speed down to a much slower speed. It takes physical effort, as your legs go on automatic, and its hard not to go to your normal stride. However when walking with someone injured or older I make an effort not to race off. I wouldn't abandon them.

But I've also been on the other end, being injured and walking slower. I don't like to hold people up, and am often happy to be left alone, but it can be nice to have someone to talk too, and take your mind off pain. The kms go by faster that way.

It is much harder than people would imagine. It can even be painful because you are altering your own normal stride among various other things.

But it goes back to communication and intention.

Communication ---before and during the Camino-- between group members is key to the entire thing.

And each group member should assess their own intention. Honestly, if you've already done a Camino or two, consider giving yourself up a bit and concentrate on making that older person's Camino the best it can possibly be. This might be their only or last one.

If you have to sacrifice something in order to help another, then maybe just maybe you are doing something wonderful and are living and walking in the Camino spirit. Seeing that person's tired but beaming face at dinner or hearing them talk about it after they get home will be all the payback you need.

 

[JenCook]

So first of all did the person who came across this "older" person ask them how they felt about being on their own. The family might have gone on ahead as they had a booking and wanted to make sure they were all catered for. The "older" ( hate the word elderly, I'm 75 and I'm not elderly just older) person might have said that they wanted to be alone with their thoughts. If we aren't privy to a conversation then we can't make assumptions

 

[trecile]

Let's not infantilise older or less able pilgrims

Thank you.

 

[William Garza]

Playing the devils advocate.
Respectfully
3d party encounters are very often one sided
1st impressions are usually based on nature/nurture and cloud judgment

Family dynamics and communications are their own..and should not be compared to yours.

Old folks can and will be stubborn..they decide to slow down
They get ornery
They get ideas in their heads that are opposed to what was agreed upon
They get in over their heads as the fam knew they would.

And then there is jane and johnny pilgrim who see only what they want to see.

Not being mean nor pointy finger..just people are people and 3d party judgements are not always correct the first time

 

[Walkalong]

Abandoned?

Happily passed all day, receiving the occasional "Are you okay?" After several days being passed by many of the same walkers I offer to treat their blisters.

Then there was the guy on his third or fourth beer, waiting for his wife to smell the flowers and take pictures of every bird, bee and flower she fancied. On another occasion, noted the glare of a mother hen when one of her herd talked to a stranger. Takes all kinds to make the Camino the wonderful experience that it is.

When walking with my son (in about 3 weeks) and daughter in spring, I expect them to walk at their own pace, hopefully with people her own age, … and save me a lower bunk for my late arrival.

Camino is more of a walk in the park - a very long park - rather than a trek in the bush or a training exercise.

Always be kind.

 

[GaTeach]

This post reminded me of Ms Martha from California. 86 years old on her third Camino. Does anyone know if she made it to SdC?

 

[Corned Beef]

Going back to the 'abandoned' question. Is there a box of them at albergue where you can pick up another if you've lost yours?

 

[MichaelB10398]

Perfectly understandable for a wilderness trek, but the Camino Francés is not bush walking. If members of the group are comfortable walking separately at different speeds and they have all agreed, no one should feel bad about walking independently at their own pace.

It is an opinion. There is no need to consistently voice a contrary opinion, which has been done.

My humble opinion is for groups to simply be both thoughtful and kind to one another, and this includes personal sacrifice and/or enjoyment, and having frank conversations about personal abilities and feelings about situations that affect team members. More importantly, that there is nothing that trumps safety, and making plans for recalcitrant older folks that still think they can walk long distances (this is a conversation to be had long before boarding an airplane).

Be wise, thoughtful, and identify what is most important about a pilgrimage.

 

[Barbara]

It is an opinion. There is no need to consistently voice a contrary opinion, which has been done.

My humble opinion is for groups to simply be both thoughtful and kind to one another, and this includes personal sacrifice and/or enjoyment, and having frank conversations about personal abilities and feelings about situations that affect team members. More importantly, that there is nothing that trumps safety, and making plans for recalcitrant older folks that still think they can walk long distances (this is a conversation to be had long before boarding an airplane).

Be wise, thoughtful, and identify what is most important about a pilgrimage.

Which is one good reason for walking solo. Plus letting people make their own choices. And I can think of many things that trump safety.

 

[peregrina2000]

As a full time caregiver in my non-Camino life, I think @Nuala hit it on the head when she pointed out that someone watching an interaction doesn’t have the full picture. We have a snapshot, not a video, of the relationship dynamics. There is never any excuse for cruelty or berating someone for things over which they have no control, of course, but I am sure that there have been moments in my recent past in which someone seeing one moment of frustration might extrapolate it in totally inaccurate ways.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for those who walk intergenerational caminos, but I have met people who had huge regrets for having started out with one walking partner or another and then felt “trapped.” I saw how it led to interactions that would inevitably produce regret on the part of the person who snapped. And it gets more complicated when you layer on the family dynamics part!

 

[trecile]

I have a lot of respect and admiration for those who walk intergenerational caminos, but I have met people who had huge regrets for having started out with one walking partner or another and then felt “trapped.”

I talked to a friend recently who walked his 7th Camino. His first several Caminos were solo, but the last 4 were with family members. He told me that this year was his least favorite because although the family member has a fairly active lifestyle, he was not in "Camino shape". The twist is that my friend is in his 80s, while the family member is in his 50s!

 

[David Tallan]

I've walked Caminos alone and with family members. Both can be extremely rewarding.

I have a tendency to push back against the "it's my Camino" rhetoric by responding "it is our Camino". None of us walks the Camino alone, even when we walk in solitude. We share the route with others, fellow pilgrims who walk before or after or at the same time, all of those who support and enable the Camino, and the people of Spain whose land we are walking through. But this goes triple when we are walking with family members. Supporting each other through our Caminos has to be a key consideration in all of the decisions we make. Sometimes that might mean walking together; sometimes it might mean giving people the space to walk alone. When I was walking with my son, both were critical to supporting him through his Camino at different points.

I can't judge the situations described above. I'm not party to the full picture, as others have pointed out. But I am confident that if whatever drove the decisions that led to the decision was based on "how can we best support each other" rather than "how can I best meet my needs", the outcome will probably be viewed better by the people that matter.

Walking with others from home, especially family members, does mean prioritizing things differently. That can have costs (as trecile's friend discovered). It can also bring great rewards.

 

[NualaOC]

I've walked Caminos alone and with family members. Both can be extremely rewarding.

I have a tendency to push back against the "it's my Camino" rhetoric by responding "it is our Camino". None of us walks the Camino alone, even when we walk in solitude. We share the route with others, fellow pilgrims who walk before or after or at the same time, all of those who support and enable the Camino, and the people of Spain whose land we are walking through. But this goes triple when we are walking with family members. Supporting each other through our Caminos has to be a key consideration in all of the decisions we make. Sometimes that might mean walking together; sometimes it might mean giving people the space to walk alone. When I was walking with my son, both were critical to supporting him through his Camino at different points.

I can't judge the situations described above. I'm not party to the full picture, as others have pointed out. But I am confident that if whatever drove the decisions that led to the decision was based on "how can we best support each other" rather than "how can I best meet my needs", the outcome will probably be viewed better by the people that matter.

Walking with others from home, especially family members, does mean prioritizing things differently. That can have costs (as trecile's friend discovered). It can also bring great rewards.

A beautifully balanced post, that might be a fitting end to this thread.

 

[RRat]

I'd like to share an observation that I've witnessed a few times on this camino that I think needs some attention and that is regarding elderly pilgrims traveling with family.

Yesterday I witnessed a daughter of 50+ berate her elderly mother for walking too slow and that she was going to go forward without her and she ‘could catch up’ . This event coupled with several other elderly pilgrims whom I walked with in their 80's has sparked my need to say something.

One gentleman, 85 from the USA leaned so far to the right I was concerned he was going to fall down the ravine so I respectfully asked if he would move to the center of the trail to prevent this tragedy. From there we walked together and every two minutes he had a tripping episode that he barely survived. I had to ask how he was managing and he said his son and grandson were walking the Camino with him…they would rush forward to the next town and sit at a Cafe and wait for him, that was their method.

I wish I had my grandparents, my children to walk with me. That walk would be all about them, I would appreciate that this might never happen again and I would cherish that walk. I don't claim to understand this idea of bringing an elderly person to this challenge and then abandon them.

It's about the journey and not the destination my friends.

I'm amazed by the lack of common sense. The old guy should walk one or two kilometers, then take a taxi to the planed overnight stop, waiting for the others to catch up.

 

[trecile]

I'm amazed by the lack of common sense. The old guy should walk one or two kilometers, then take a taxi to the planed overnight stop, waiting for the others to catch up.

Maybe that's not what the old guy wants to do.

 

[Barbara]

I'm amazed by the lack of common sense. The old guy should walk one or two kilometers, then take a taxi to the planed overnight stop, waiting for the others to catch up.

The old folk should do what they want, just like you.

 

[Bradypus]

The old folk should do what they want, just like you.

Yes. Though they should also be realistic in assessing their own fitness when choosing their daily stages. The Burguete bomberos were called out last night to find an 81 year old peregrina who still had not reached the Roncesvalles albergue after 9pm last night.

Rescate exitoso de una peregrina de 81 años en Roncesvalles

La peregrina, aunque visiblemente cansada por el esfuerzo, no requirió traslado a un centro médico

estelladigital.com

 

[Barbara]

Yes. Though they should also be realistic in assessing their own fitness when choosing their daily stages. The Burguete bomberos were called out last night to find an 81 year old peregrina who still had not reached the Roncesvalles albergue after 9pm last night.

Rescate exitoso de una peregrina de 81 años en Roncesvalles

La peregrina, aunque visiblemente cansada por el esfuerzo, no requirió traslado a un centro médico

estelladigital.com

As should we all. But I wonder, if the statistics are available, what the rescue demographics world be?