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Will the Protest Against Tourists in Barcelona Come to Santiago?

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The 2024 Camino guides will be coming out little by little. Here is a collection of the ones that are out so far.
Spotted this long rant about tourists wrecking Edinburgh today

I'm heading there early next week for a couple of days. I was, (or maybe shouldn't have been) surprised how the cost of even modest accomodation is almost three times what I paid a few years ago.

Still, I'll do my level best to blend in and stay off the tourist trail.. Should I wear a kilt so I don't get kilt?🤔🤭
 
I'm heading there early next week for a couple of days. I was, (or maybe shouldn't have been) surprised how the cost of even modest accomodation is almost three times what I paid a few years ago.

Still, I'll do my level best to blend in and stay off the tourist trail.. Should I wear a kilt so I don't get kilt?🤔🤭
You can always stay in Glasgow, or even Newcastle, and get the train of course! Great cities (not that Edinburgh isn’t) but will be much more of local feel.
 
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It is surprising what turns up when one googles the news. Turistas Santiago millones led me to albergues Santiago millones and that led me to a flurry of very recent news articles about the new contract that the government of Galicia has just tendered for the next two years. It has a volume of 12 million euros and includes cleaning and day-to-day management of the public pilgrim albergues in Galicia. It covers the cost for both staff and material for maintenance.

There are currently 79 of these government owned and maintained albergues in Galicia with 3.600 beds. Of these, 62 are directly managed by the Galician government and a further 13 - although also owned by the public Xacobeo organisation - are managed by municipalities and other entities. 4 more are planned and would also be covered by the new contract. This net of public pilgrim albergues of Galicia is definitely a touristic infrastructure for tourist-pilgrims that is pretty unique.

They are gearing up for the next Holy Year in 2027 and are expecting a further growth in Camino pilgrim numbers for Galicia and for Santiago.
 
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It is surprising what turns up when one googles the news. Turistas Santiago millones led me to albergues Santiago millones and that led me to a flurry of very recent news articles about the new contract that the government of Galicia has just tendered for the next two years. It has a volume of 12 million euros and includes cleaning and day-to-day management of the public pilgrim albergues in Galicia. It covers the cost for both staff and material for maintenance.

There are currently 79 of these government owned and maintained albergues in Galicia with 3.600 beds. Of these, 62 are directly managed by the Galician government and a further 13 - although also owned by the public Xacobeo organisation - are managed by municipalities and other entities. 4 more are planned and would also be covered by the new contract. This net of public pilgrim albergues of Galicia is definitely a touristic infrastructure for tourist-pilgrims that is pretty unique.

They are gearing up for the next Holy Year in 2027 and are expecting a further growth in Camino pilgrim numbers for Galicia and for Santiago.
Presumably this is good news or am I missing something?
 
Presumably this is good news or am I missing something?
It is just news ☺️. The government of Galicia has been awarding such a contract to an external company for years. The contract runs for several years and then there is a new public tender procedure. It had just occurred to me that Galicia has this network of public albergues and how unique it is in the touristic landscapes, especially in view of the provision of accommodation and how expensive (or rather how cheap) it is.
 
The focus is on reducing the risk of failure through being well prepared. 2nd ed.
They are gearing up for the next Holy Year in 2027 and are expecting a further growth in Camino pilgrim numbers for Galicia and for Santiago.
The Xunta allocated a budget of 141 million euros for preparations for the 2027 Holy Year. Some of the recent fuss about tourist numbers and behaviour may reflect political squabbles between the provincial government and the Santiago city council. A useful topic with which to challenge the opposition.
 
It is surprising what turns up when one googles the news. Turistas Santiago millones led me to albergues Santiago millones and that led me to a flurry of very recent news articles about the new contract that the government of Galicia has just tendered for the next two years. It has a volume of 12 million euros and includes cleaning and day-to-day management of the public pilgrim albergues in Galicia. It covers the cost for both staff and material for maintenance.

There are currently 79 of these government owned and maintained albergues in Galicia with 3.600 beds. Of these, 62 are directly managed by the Galician government and a further 13 - although also owned by the public Xacobeo organisation - are managed by municipalities and other entities. 4 more are planned and would also be covered by the new contract. This net of public pilgrim albergues of Galicia is definitely a touristic infrastructure for tourist-pilgrims that is pretty unique.

They are gearing up for the next Holy Year in 2027 and are expecting a further growth in Camino pilgrim numbers for Galicia and for Santiago.
How happy am I that I do not need this in my 2027 diary.
If I live that long.
I would be hitting 80.
(oops, can't get the correct Spanish keyboard...)
Fijate tu! 🤣
Thank you. @Kathar1na for your invariably objective and indisputably correct contributions.
 
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Don't know about Santiago, but it's certainly in Palas de Rei.
 
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Since 1st posted, this thread seems to have traveled all over the viewpoint map. So, I thought I might add another possible discussion to the thread: The very wealthy just outside of Madrid may not be concerned about Airbnb's, but they are certainly concerned about proposed development destroying their community.


I should add, "...30% of the land will be delivered free of charge to the City to build about 300 homes that will be incorporated into the Municipal Housing Plan..."
 
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Greater London introduced a 90 days rule for AirBnB rentals. Other towns and regions around the world introduced similar limits. It is not universal.
This is a real head-scratcher. What could possibly be the rationale for this policy? Now there have to be four units removed from the long term rental market to provide the market with every one full year of short term rentals. I know that’s not how it works, and that there is not a 1-1 correlation, but that is one way to think about the effect of a government-imposed limit on occupancy rates. Whatever the “normal” empty period that the market would create, this policy seems to have the effect of creating more rather than fewer short term rental units. This makes no sense to me at all, but maybe someone can explain it.

And the other thing that is really astonishing is that it must be the case that 90 days of airbnb rentals is more profitable than a year of a regular rental. AND from those 90 days worth of revenue, the owner has to subtract cleaning fee, the platform’s fee, and in some places local taxes.

I am clearly not understanding something.
 
This is a 7-minute video about residents of Barcelona protesting against over-tourism. It also comments on protests in other parts of the world. It also comments on the economic benefits for the tourist industry as well as the economic suffering of the residents.
The video is from YouTube. There are numerous articles from around the world about these protests.


I was in Barcelona a day or so after these demonstrations. It is just a hype by the media. My tour guide said she never saw any of it and said it was just a few people involved. Somehow they got the media behind them. Friends were messaging me beforehand to be careful. Noone in Barcdlona where I went spole about it.
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
I am sure it will play out big in the UK media this week. This weekend is the big ‘getaway’ when most of the schools finish so everyone is off to wherever at the weekend esp. Spain! So I would expect to see plenty of coverage as this is far ‘juicier’ than passport queues than have been the summer holiday nightmare story in the third week of July for the past few years. Anyway as my Indian mate who resides in Spain tells me that at least it has taken the pressure of migrants who often get the blame for lack of housing, so it’s not all bad. Send tourists to London. We will have them!!

I stay in accommodation booked thru either AirBNB or booking . Com for about 300 nights of the year but never really notice the tax proportion of it, unless I pay at check in and they specifically mention it. Airbnb is very itemised re with all the various fees and discounts listed. So I remember Rome for example. Quite a few places outside Europe too. Just focus on final price I guess even tho at the bottom end of market.

I am slightly loathe to get involved in the broader debate. I spend probably aprox. 40% of my time in Spain, but it is hard to get a view as an ‘outsider’ esp. when politics will play a part as it always does. Possibly a lot of the protesters are reasonably affluent and maybe the youth unemployment don’t have a voice. I don’t know but wouldn’t surprise me. Things are never as straightforward as they seem. It’s a global issue of course too. I would no more likely tell Americans how they solve their issues as folks from Barcelona. But I don’t like statements like ‘don’t book Airbnb’ which are the equivalent of me shouting out ‘don’t drive’, or ‘don’t eat meat! .

Cruise Ships are huge money as it has a huge American base and that’s where the money and consumption is.
I can assure you that, at least in Malaga, the protesters were very representative of what has been going on for more than 10 years in this city, and are not particularly affluent. All my friends here are spanish, all my kids friends are spanish, from Malaga, and although these people all have jobs, and very good ones for some of them, it is impossible for them to find flats in Malaga, whether to buy or to rent. So either you stay put where you are already, in the case of my friends, lucky if you own your home, trembling if you don’t, or you have to move out of the city if your lease comes to an end, or you stay with your parents in the case of my kids friends, which, when you are 25 and have a job, is not normal. Or you are lucky and inherit your parent’s house. That’s it.
I have had 4 very good friends having to move out. It breaks my heart.

Meanwhile, AirBnB makes a ton of money, the people leasing their flats on AirBnB in Spain too and often don’t pay taxes, and hotels are not full. I travel a lot, I never stayed in an AirBnB and never will.
 
This is a real head-scratcher. What could possibly be the rationale for this policy? Now there have to be four units removed from the long term rental market to provide the market with every one full year of short term rentals. I know that’s not how it works, and that there is not a 1-1 correlation, but that is one way to think about the effect of a government-imposed limit on occupancy rates. Whatever the “normal” empty period that the market would create, this policy seems to have the effect of creating more rather than fewer short term rental units. This makes no sense to me at all, but maybe someone can explain it.

And the other thing that is really astonishing is that it must be the case that 90 days of airbnb rentals is more profitable than a year of a regular rental. AND from those 90 days worth of revenue, the owner has to subtract cleaning fee, the platform’s fee, and in some places local taxes.

I am clearly not understanding something.
I think the idea is that it's OK to occasionally rent out your own home, but not to permanently remove properties from the local housing market. And the whole idea is that it won't be profitable to have a property on airbnb that you can only rent for 90 days a year, so those properties will return to long-term rental.
 
When I have used Air BnB, I've tended to select rooms where the owner was still living in the apartment and just renting out a spare room. That's what works for me. It makes it feel less like an unregulated hotel or hostel. I noticed, however, when traveling with my daughter that this type of arrangement made her more uncomfortable about using common spaces like kitchens and bathrooms because she felt like she was intruding in someone else's home. Different strokes for different folks.
 
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The Canary Islands has a big problem to manage the arrival of thousands of minors from África and they want help from the península but in the península some people are reluctant to receive these minors. These days people in Spain are more worried about this issue than the one in the OP.
 
The Canary Islands has a big problem to manage the arrival of thousands of minors from África and they want help from the península but in the península some people are reluctant to receive these minors. These days people in Spain are more worried about this issue than the one in the OP.
A serious issue, but maybe not one for this forum.
 
Just to chime in that the anti-mass-tourism sentiment does exist in Santiago: this photo was taken on the way into Barrio San Lázaro on Friday (19.7.24). I hope it's ok to post despite the profanity.
 

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I can assure you that, at least in Malaga, the protesters were very representative of what has been going on for more than 10 years in this city, and are not particularly affluent. All my friends here are spanish, all my kids friends are spanish, from Malaga, and although these people all have jobs, and very good ones for some of them, it is impossible for them to find flats in Malaga, whether to buy or to rent. So either you stay put where you are already, in the case of my friends, lucky if you own your home, trembling if you don’t, or you have to move out of the city if your lease comes to an end, or you stay with your parents in the case of my kids friends, which, when you are 25 and have a job, is not normal. Or you are lucky and inherit your parent’s house. That’s it.
I have had 4 very good friends having to move out. It breaks my heart.

Meanwhile, AirBnB makes a ton of money, the people leasing their flats on AirBnB in Spain too and often don’t pay taxes, and hotels are not full. I travel a lot, I never stayed in an AirBnB and never will.
Thank you for the very useful insight. I guess i am just not convinced that Airbnb is the issue. The data presented on here - Airbnb vs secondary homes was powerful to me. It was BCN data - do you know the ratio for Malaga? Lots of credible media sources seem to doubt the impact of restrictions to Airbnb? If people want to see restrictions to Airbnb that’s fine but surely we are about solving the issue the OP identified? .
 
Just to chime in that the anti-mass-tourism sentiment does exist in Santiago: this photo was taken on the way into Barrio San Lázaro on Friday (19.7.24). I hope it's ok to post despite the profanity.

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It’s a powerful image. I guess pilgrims are a subset of
the tourist industry (a special interest group), so not entirely surprising. Tourists are sharply in focus rightly or wrongly. Folks from richer countries fly in from all over the world and obv change the supply / demand/ratio certainly in SDQ so I see how they form that opinion. Whether it’s the right one of course is another matter.
 
Just to chime in that the anti-mass-tourism sentiment does exist in Santiago: this photo was taken on the way into Barrio San Lázaro on Friday (19.7.24). I hope it's ok to post despite the profanity.

View attachment 174973
It has been said in various ways in this thread, but it is worth repeating: To some local residents along the Camino (including Santiago), Pilgrims/Tourists are one and the same.
 
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It has been said in various ways in this thread, but it is worth repeating: To some local residents along the Camino (including Santiago), Pilgrims/Tourists are one and the same.
Valid point. Either way they are both consumers so no difference in terms of the impact they have on the demand for goods and services, especially accommodation. The only objective difference is that visitors walking the Camino tend not to stay very long.
 
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Valid point. Either way they are both consumers so no difference in terms of the impact they have on the demand for goods and services, especially accommodation. The only objective difference is that visitors walking the Camino tend not to stay very long.
But in an endless line... :cool:
 
When I put the photo into Google Search to find the original source, a Daily Mail article appeared. Exclusive even! So I was at least right in this respect. It was published 2 days ago. And the Mail editors know how to write catchy headlines. ☺️
I don’t know about the Mail but tabloids in USA think nothing of illustrating misleading articles with photos dishonestly searched out to reinforce the deception. In one article I saw, they even added a trail of blood to a photo that had none! Quite possible that the Mail used a photo that seemed a good representation of the article but was actually taken elsewhere.

But equally possible that the term is used in Spain, as suggested by https://dle.rae.es/gringo
 
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Are "Smelly" Hipsters ruining Spain's Camino de Santiago?

This was originally published on 31 July 2017 by El Pais-English-7 years ago. The protests are specifically to Lagrono and more than just about "pushing up prices and forcing locals out." (These residents have some very specific issues.}

I have come to realize the anger about today's Pilgrims/Tourists is not a new problem but one that has been simmering for a while. So, I am back to my OP: Will today's protests move to Santiago? Has the anger along the Camino grown over time?

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/28/inenglish/1501234923_239922.html

This is from an earlier post (#43), --for those who have not read it.

"In A Holy City Clogged by Tourism, Locals Say Enough is Enough." (17 October 2023)

 
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It has been said in various ways in this thread, but it is worth repeating: To some local residents along the Camino (including Santiago), Pilgrims/Tourists are one and the same.
These days they/we often are, as opposed to (say) 25 years ago, or even 10 years ago.

Just to chime in that the anti-mass-tourism sentiment does exist in Santiago: this photo was taken on the way into Barrio San Lázaro on Friday (19.7.24). I hope it's ok to post despite the profanity.
Finally, someone who's in Santiago right now, giving their direct experience. That's one data point though. There are probably more people who welcome pilgrims or are indifferent, but we have no way of knowing.
 
So, I am back to my OP: Will today's protests move to Santiago?
I don't understand why you keep phrasing the question in that way.

There have already been, and likely will continue to be, protests in Santiago about the behaviour of visitors and the effect of large numbers on the quality of life in Santiago. There have been protests in Barcelona. There have been protests in other cities. These are all based on similar considerations.

Why do you suggest that they would "move"? Building that into your question makes it very difficult to answer. To the question of whether there will be protests in the future in Santiago, I would answer "Probably, as they have already taken place, and things are getting worse." To the question of whether the protests will move from Barcelona to Santiago, I would be less certain, as it implies a transfer of something from one city to the other. Is this what you are implying and trying to elicit from us?
 
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Thank you for the very useful insight. I guess i am just not convinced that Airbnb is the issue. The data presented on here - Airbnb vs secondary homes was powerful to me. It was BCN data - do you know the ratio for Malaga? Lots of credible media sources seem to doubt the impact of restrictions to Airbnb? If people want to see restrictions to Airbnb that’s fine but surely we are about solving the issue the OP identified? .
The issue? I imagine a very quick padlock would be the result of saying what I think is the issue! (Maybe the invention of the wheel... 😈)
The onion is an image that comes to mind now. Layer after layer to reach the core...
 
I don't understand why you keep phrasing the question in that way.

There have already been, and likely will continue to be, protests in Santiago about the behaviour of visitors and the effect of large numbers on the quality of life in Santiago. There have been protests in Barcelona. There have been protests in other cities. These are all based on similar considerations.

Why do you suggest that they would "move"? Building that into your question makes it very difficult to answer. To the question of whether there will be protests in the future in Santiago, I would answer "Probably, as they have already taken place, and things are getting worse." To the question of whether the protests will move from Barcelona to Santiago, I would be less certain, as it implies a transfer of something from one city to the other. Is this what you are implying and trying to elicit from us?
Very Respectfully.
Not pointing fingers at op

I believe op wants a very specific answer
Confirmation bias? Or circular argument
Bad rhetoric.

Other pov seems to not fit a specific narrative
If op is seeking to have the forum enlightened then Bravo..
If op wants a lively and spirited debat and conversation..Bravo!
If op wants a christal ball or a mind reader then its going to be a long nite.

Chaos would have attention shifted And the next issue du jour comes along
 
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The issue? I imagine a very quick padlock would be the result of saying what I think is the issue! (Maybe the invention of the wheel... 😈)
The onion is an image that comes to mind now. Layer after layer to reach the core...
Don’t quite understand what you mean but I was referring to the rental inventory in BCN of 1.5% versus the second home ownership of 15%. So very simplistically without an ‘on the ground’ broader view I would say that second homes may be the broader issue. In the UK 2nd home (Cornwall for example) has attracted alot of column inches.

Taking a step back I am in position where I cannot afford to buy or rent in my home city. If short terms rental were banned tomorrow do I think it would change the dial. Well not really.

I don’t think you would have problem if you put forward your thoughts. We have a range of views, some data, but of course a very incomplete view so all thoughts and insights build a picture.
 
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Just in case anyone actually reads the Fodor article and believes every word ;), this line is not true: It was a perfect storm combining a holy year for Santiago, when devout pilgrims receive a plenary indulgence for completing the Camino. Nobody gets a plenary indulgence for completing the Camino. This needs to be pointed out as inaccurate although it is of course not a big deal in the context of an article about tourism and pilgrimagism in Santiago; it is just a lack of basic knowledge of a freelance author who is based in New York, has lived for four years in Galicia and has created winesofgalicia.com, the first English-language site dedicated to Galician wine.

The article is a fairly good and accurate summary of various articles in the Galician news media in 2023 and 2022 and of the activist Instagram account @compostelaresiste. It does not sound as if the writer has done some independent research and actually interviewed anyone on his own and on location.
 
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the Fodor article
Two comments left me wonder a bit: A quote that says that
  • the number of students who enroll in the University of Santiago de Compostela has gone from 50,000 to 15,000,” he says. “And why? Because the students can’t find anywhere affordable to live anymore. It’s all tourists.
Is this reduction in student numbers true - and if so over which period of time - and is the accommodation situation the main reason?

The second quote is this:
  • Santiago receives over 400,000 pilgrims each year (not to mention the non-Camino de Santiago tourists), which keeps growing. In the high season, there are 1.5 tourists per every local, or Compostelano—an even higher number than in other tourist hotspots like Barcelona or Palma de Mallorca
That is obviously a reference to the marker of "tourism pressure". Santiago has about 100,000 inhabitants, so this corresponds to 150,000 tourists. This cannot be per day so what is it? Per month? Summer season? May to September? The number of pilgrims arriving per day during the peak season is a few thousand - about 2,000 to 3,000 receive a Compostela and to this is added a percentage of 30% who don't get registered in the statistics of the Oficina del Peregrino. And how comparable is this factor? It obviously has to do with how long tourists (including Camino pilgrims) stay and where they walk around and shop and eat and drink. In Santiago, the issue appears to be mainly the old town - a fairly small area.
 
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Just in case anyone actually reads the Fodor article and believes every word ;), this line is not true: It was a perfect storm combining a holy year for Santiago, when devout pilgrims receive a plenary indulgence for completing the Camino. Nobody gets a plenary indulgence for completing the Camino. Not a big deal of course in this context about tourism and pilgrimagism in Santiago just a lack of knowledge of the freelance author who is based in New York, has lived for four years in Galicia and has created winesofgalicia.com, the first English-language site dedicated to Galician wine.

The article is a fairly good and accurate summary of various articles in the Galician media and of the activist Instagram account @compostelaresiste. It does not sound as if the writer has done some independent research and interviewed anyone.

This two comments left me wonder a bit: A quote that says that
  • the number of students who enroll in the University of Santiago de Compostela has gone from 50,000 to 15,000,” he says. “And why? Because the students can’t find anywhere affordable to live anymore. It’s all tourists.
It this reduction in student numbers true - and if so over which time period - and is the accommodation situation the main reason?

The second quote is this:
  • Santiago receives over 400,000 pilgrims each year (not to mention the non-Camino de Santiago tourists), which keeps growing. In the high season, there are 1.5 tourists per every local, or Compostelano—an even higher number than in other tourist hotspots like Barcelona or Palma de Mallorca
That is obviously a reference to the marker of "tourism pressure". Santiago has about 100,000 inhabitants, so this corresponds to 150,000 tourists. This cannot be per day so what is it? Per month? Summer season? May to September? And how comparable is this factor? It obviously has to do with how long tourists stay and where they are. In Santiago, the issue appears to be mainly the old town - a fairly small area.
Not being overly specific to your post but I was reflecting on how students play out in all this as there has been tensions between locals and students over a range of issues not least housing in the UK. In fact male students in some towns are advised not to frequent some pubs or maybe avoid weekends. Renting to Students can be very lucrative as you can fill up a house with quite a few of them. Rents can be quite pricey (student often have wealthy parents) and may well be more lucrative than renting to a normal family.

Culturally there can be some ‘us and them’ as some universities maybe from poorer cities can ‘fill up’ with students from more affluent areas.

We do seem to be moving into strange times. We have never been more multi cultural or mobile but ‘outsiders’ such and immigrants, refugees, tourist, students, etc are at front and centre of the media.
 
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in the UK
I am aware of this as I have family in Brighton. They bought a house recently - in a row of these typical English terraced houses and at what this Continental European regards as an exorbitant price - and to the right and left of them are houses that are rented out to students. However, as fascinating as all this is, it is next to impossible to keep this thread on track 😂: Santiago and their specific situation.

And it is a specific situation in Santiago but hardly any poster appears to notice and address this. A huge part of the activism is related to large groups of pilgrims on foot, often on the young side, who are noisy when they march into Santiago. Read @Rebekah Scott's comments who lives in Spain and is well connected and very familiar with all things Camino. Or (young?) Camino pilgrims who camp in tents in the old town although that is apparently a fairly rare incident. Or who have picnics on the ground of the plaza de Obradoiro. The photo with the foul language posted a few comments earlier was taken in the Barrio San Lázaro - exactly the area where much of the protest on social media, and then reported in the news media, comes from.

BTW, the irony: The protester did what is criticised when it is done by a pilgrim - visual pollution and no respect for the urban environment and those who live there. :cool:
 
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Don’t quite understand what you mean but I was referring to the rental inventory in BCN of 1.5% versus the second home ownership of 15%. So very simplistically without an ‘on the ground’ broader view I would say that second homes may be the broader issue. In the UK 2nd home (Cornwall for example) has attracted alot of column inches.

Taking a step back I am in position where I cannot afford to buy or rent in my home city. If short terms rental were banned tomorrow do I think it would change the dial. Well not really.

I don’t think you would have problem if you put forward your thoughts. We have a range of views, some data, but of course a very incomplete view so all thoughts and insights build a picture.
I refer to building blocks. Nothing appears from nothing. One thing leads to another. I know, I am not apparently on topic, but essentially, disturbance somewhere affects tranquility somewhere else. Eventually. Don't worry about trying to understand me. You are not alone😁.
 
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I know this thread is specifically about Santiago, but this is on the first page of SUR this morning, to give you an idea… Can anyone get more cynical than Malaga’s Mayor?IMG_0283.jpeg
 
Everybody keeps referring just to airbnb. All online rental platforms are an issue.
I have booked several rooms in Spain, and numerous apartments here in Germany on Booking. whilst on my walk from home.

One German example (from April ).
The apartment owner lives in the building, it's six apartments. Since purchase, she's been gradually renovating it over the past seven years (it was originally very run down). She renovated an Apartment and quickly realised that she can make significantly more money renting it out short-term than long-term. Even with only a 50% occupancy rate in her first year ( her figure) after fees, cleaning etc (tax deductible) she made nearly double what she gets from the apartments she has rented out long-term. So she eventually did the same with her other two available apartments.
That means that just 50% of the building is occupied by locals, the rest is visitors like ourselves.

I'm sure that the situation is similar elsewhere.

Spain: Sigüeiro is a good example: I rented a private room at the Albergue, it's actually in a separate building. An apartment with four bedrooms, two bathrooms, lounge and kitchen - it's now solely 'visitors'.

This is a real head-scratcher. What could possibly be the rationale for this policy? Now there have to be four units removed from the long term rental market to provide the market with every one full year of short term rentals. I know that’s not how it works, and that there is not a 1-1 correlation, but that is one way to think about the effect of a government-imposed limit on occupancy rates. Whatever the “normal” empty period that the market would create, this policy seems to have the effect of creating more rather than fewer short term rental units. This makes no sense to me at all, but maybe someone can explain it.

And the other thing that is really astonishing is that it must be the case that 90 days of airbnb rentals is more profitable than a year of a regular rental. AND from those 90 days worth of revenue, the owner has to subtract cleaning fee, the platform’s fee, and in some places local taxes.

I am clearly not understanding something.

My understanding is that @Molly Cassidy is completely correct, the idea is to make it unprofitable for landlords to solely rent on airbnb and to return these properties to the market. If it's uneconomical for the landlords to rent them out, then they will sell them. Either way they're returned to the 'pool'.

People that wish to simply rent out their properties short term whilst they themselves are away are unaffected. Eg:
I rented an apartment in Trondheim from a student whilst he was on holiday July 2022. My 10 days paid for his Month! Win - win.
 
I refer to building blocks. Nothing appears from nothing. One thing leads to another. I know, I am not apparently on topic, but essentially, disturbance somewhere affects tranquility somewhere else. Eventually. Don't worry about trying to understand me. You are not alone😁.
Sorry I was being very slow and very thick! It offen happen. And you are absolutely right! I now get it!
 
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I know this thread is specifically about Santiago, but this is on the first page of SUR this morning, to give you an idea… Can anyone get more cynical than Malaga’s Mayor?
The article is behind a paywall for me and in the first lines that everyone can read the first thing I noticed is the fact that Francesco de la Torre, the mayor of Malaga since 2000 and in the first year of his current term, is 81 years old. 🫢

Although I cannot read the article I guess that it addresses a point that Malaga has in common with Santiago: Much of the protest action is aimed at the urban and economic policies of the local city administration. Their aim is more and more tourists and they don't do enough to mitigate the negative effects of tourism on the local population although they could. Higher numbers are celebrated as a success each and every year. Look at headlines like this (again not Santiago but exemplary for their situation, too): Barcelona to ramp up flight arrivals this summer – despite wave of anti-tourist protests last year or elsewhere Spanish airlines expect a record summer season and are adding 13% more seats from a year ago, confident that consumers will continue to...

And it always makes me giggle a bit when someone evokes "capitalism" as the source of all mass tourism evil. IMHO, never before had so many people so much opportunity to travel at affordable prices to distant destinations to spend leisure time there. And leisure time includes, in my understanding, walking a Camino. At least in the 21st century.
 
The article is behind a paywall for me and in the first lines that everyone can read the first thing I noticed is the fact that Francesco de la Torre, the mayor of Malaga since 2000 and in the first year of his current term, is 81 years old. 🫢

Although I cannot read the article I guess that it addresses a point that Malaga has in common with Santiago: Much of the protest action is aimed at the urban and economic policies of the local city administration. Their aim is more and more tourists and they don't do enough to mitigate the negative effects of tourism on the local population although they could. Higher numbers are celebrated as a success each year. Look at headlines like this (again not Santiago but exemplary for their situation, too): Barcelona to ramp up flight arrivals this summer – despite wave of anti-tourist protests last year or elsewhere "Spanish airlines expect a record summer season and are adding 13% more seats from a year ago, confident that consumers will continue to..."

And it always makes be giggle a bit when someone evokes "capitalism" as the source of all mass tourism evil. IMHO, never before had so many people so much opportunity to travel at affordable prices to distant destination to spend leisure time there. And leisure time includes, in my understanding, walking a Camino. At least in the 21st century.
Correct.
 
Everybody keeps referring just to airbnb. All online rental platforms are an issue.
I have booked several rooms in Spain, and numerous apartments here in Germany on Booking. whilst on my walk from home.

One German example (from April ).
The apartment owner lives in the building, it's six apartments. Since purchase, she's been gradually renovating it over the past seven years (it was originally very run down). She renovated an Apartment and quickly realised that she can make significantly more money renting it out short-term than long-term. Even with only a 50% occupancy rate in her first year ( her figure) after fees, cleaning etc (tax deductible) she made nearly double what she gets from the apartments she has rented out long-term. So she eventually did the same with her other two available apartments.
That means that just 50% of the building is occupied by locals, the rest is visitors like ourselves.

I'm sure that the situation is similar elsewhere.

Spain: Sigüeiro is a good example: I rented a private room at the Albergue, it's actually in a separate building. An apartment with four bedrooms, two bathrooms, lounge and kitchen - it's now solely 'visitors'.



My understanding is that @Molly Cassidy is completely correct, the idea is to make it unprofitable for landlords to solely rent on airbnb and to return these properties to the market. If it's uneconomical for the landlords to rent them out, then they will sell them. Either way they're returned to the 'pool'.

People that wish to simply rent out their properties short term whilst they themselves are away are unaffected. Eg:
I rented an apartment in Trondheim from a student whilst he was on holiday July 2022. My 10 days paid for his Month! Win - win.
Funny enough I am renting an Airbnb right now just outside Hamburg. It fits what I need. A private room with shared facilities. Price is a key factor and I’m rolling in at about €200 for 7 nights. The downside. Well it 30 to 60 mins by train from Hamburg (I have a interrail pass) depending on whether S Bahn, IC or ICE and then a 60 walk from there. The buses stop early so I am getting plenty of exercise. I got into Hamburg everyday.

It’s a typical set up for me but often I find my fellow guests to be here for work. Not really a tourist haven. Only other chap here is a slovakian who is here for work. I find a significant number for that bill so it’s not all about tourists.
 
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Funny enough I am renting an Airbnb right now just outside Hamburg. ... 30 to 60 mins by train from Hamburg
Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought it had been clarified earlier already that the issue is not online platforms like AirBnB or Booking.com as such.

The issue is secondary apartments; not lived in by the proprietor; in old established inner-city communities with erstwhile affordable housing and an intact urban environment with shops for non-tourist local needs; in areas that are attractive to tourists; anger about urban planning policies. When you have to travel 30-60 minutes to the inner city than such an example does not fit the profile that is typical for many of these recent protest movements.
 
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Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought it had been clarified earlier already that the issue is not online platforms like AirBnB or Booking.com as such.

The issue is secondary apartments; not lived in by the proprietor; in old established inner-city communities with erstwhile affordable housing and an intact urban environment with shops for non-tourist local needs
Yes - and no. Because the short term - (esp. O/night) rental of those secondary Appartments is facilitated/ made possible by the existence of the online platforms. And because they are easily rented out at a much higher rental to visitors - whether business or tourists is immaterial - they remove those self same secondary apartments from the local rental pool. Whilst incidentally removing those visitors from the very hotel's, boarding houses etc that were set up to support them in the first place.

Secondary dwellings have existed for hundreds of years, the overnight rental of such is a relatively new phenomena.
 
Yes - and no. Because the short term - (esp. O/night) rental of those secondary Appartments is facilitated/ made possible by the existence of the online platforms. And because they are easily rented out at a much higher rental to visitors - whether business or tourists is immaterial - they remove those self same secondary apartments from the local rental pool. Whilst incidentally removing those visitors from the very hotel's, boarding houses etc that were set up to support them in the first place.

Secondary dwellings have existed for hundreds of years, the overnight rental of such is a relatively new phenomena.
This !
 
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I finally had a look at the Instagram account @compostelaresiste. It's hard work of course because some of the posts and/or comments are in Galician and you even have to copy text into an online translator because the automatic translation in the browser does not work for some of the comments.

So there is some new development concerning the pisos turisticos in Santiago: A change of the position of the PSOE in Santiago overthrows the ordinance to outlaw 600 tourist flats - the original article in Spanish is here https://www.eldiario.es/galicia/cam...egalizar-600-pisos-turisticos_1_11467104.html. Posted a month ago.

The video clips on @compostelaresiste are also ... instructive. Readers can be assured: no water pistols have been used in making these video clips.

https://www.instagram.com/compostelaresiste/
 
Is this reduction in student numbers true - and if so over which period of time - and is the accommodation situation the main reason?
Data from the site below shows a reduction in students from 32,509 to 25,568 between 2009 and 2021 (I have ignored the category for which no recent data is available).

I don't know if accommodation availability is the issue, but it certainly is a major issue for students in some other cities.

 
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I don't understand why you keep phrasing the question in that way.

There have already been, and likely will continue to be, protests in Santiago about the behaviour of visitors and the effect of large numbers on the quality of life in Santiago. There have been protests in Barcelona. There have been protests in other cities. These are all based on similar considerations.

Why do you suggest that they would "move"? Building that into your question makes it very difficult to answer. To the question of whether there will be protests in the future in Santiago, I would answer "Probably, as they have already taken place, and things are getting worse." To the question of whether the protests will move from Barcelona to Santiago, I would be less certain, as it implies a transfer of something from one city to the other. Is this what you are implying and trying to elicit from us?
Simple answer: Very poor phrasing. Maybe I should have asked if the squirt gun-type protest happening in Barcelona would also begin happening in Santiago. My question was specific to Santiago as I had no idea how strong the Pilgrim/Tourist anger was in the greater Santiago area.

By opening this thread, I hoped to get a few knowledgeable comments concerning any anger in Santiago (and maybe the Camino) before fading into oblivion.

Never did I believe this thread would expand to what it is now. It has become, and is still quite a ride.

The articles I downloaded were solely for discussion purposes. It was not my intention to make a comment for one viewpoint or another.
 
The second quote is this:
  • Santiago receives over 400,000 pilgrims each year (not to mention the non-Camino de Santiago tourists), which keeps growing. In the high season, there are 1.5 tourists per every local, or Compostelano—an even higher number than in other tourist hotspots like Barcelona or Palma de Mallorca
That is obviously a reference to the marker of "tourism pressure". Santiago has about 100,000 inhabitants, so this corresponds to 150,000 tourists. This cannot be per day so what is it? Per month? Summer season? May to September? The number of pilgrims arriving per day during the peak season is a few thousand - about 2,000 to 3,000 receive a Compostela and to this is added a percentage of 30% who don't get registered in the statistics of the Oficina del Peregrino. And how comparable is this factor? It obviously has to do with how long tourists (including Camino pilgrims) stay and where they walk around and shop and eat and drink. In Santiago, the issue appears to be mainly the old town - a fairly small area.
I interpreted that as saying that at any given time in the high season there were 1.5 tourists/ local (150,000 by your numbers) in Santiago. Individual tourists come and go, but that is the number that are in the city at any given time during the high season. Certainly, the number of Compostela-earning pilgrims is nowhere near that, even if everyone stays around for several days so that the number in the city is several times the number arriving that day. But it is possible that the number of non-Compostela earning visitors to the city may dwarf the number coming for a Compostela. It certainly used to be the case. I don't know if the disparity has shrunk with the growing popularity of the Camino.
 
But it is possible that the number of non-Compostela earning visitors to the city may dwarf the number coming for a Compostela. It certainly used to be the case. I don't know if the disparity has shrunk with the growing popularity of the Camino.
I can remember people turning to look at me, pointing me out as a novelty, and even taking photos of me on my first arrival in Santiago as if I was an alien species from Doctor Who. Though there is always the possibility that was entirely personal and not directly related to my pilgrim status... Doesn't happen these days when the novelty has long worn off.
 
€2,-/day will present your project to thousands of visitors each day. All interested in the Camino de Santiago.
I think the idea is that it's OK to occasionally rent out your own home, but not to permanently remove properties from the local housing market. And the whole idea is that it won't be profitable to have a property on airbnb that you can only rent for 90 days a year, so those properties will return to long-term rental.
What if you rent for 90 days a year in Airbnb and then use other platforms, of which there are scores?
 
I interpreted that as saying that at any given time in the high season there were 1.5 tourists/ local (150,000 by your numbers) in Santiago. Individual tourists come and go, but that is the number that are in the city at any given time during the high season. Certainly, the number of Compostela-earning pilgrims is nowhere near that, even if everyone stays around for several days so that the number in the city is several times the number arriving that day. But it is possible that the number of non-Compostela earning visitors to the city may dwarf the number coming for a Compostela. It certainly used to be the case. I don't know if the disparity has shrunk with the growing popularity of the Camino.
I too find very hard to believe those numbers: 150,000 pilgrims on a single day in high season? According to Google, that would be 10 Obradoiros choke-full with pilgrims (and backpacks). Plus 125 Cathedrals for them to go to noon mass. Preposterous.
 
It is as safe now as it ever was. I have lived here for 18 years and have yet to hear about a lone pilgrim being accosted by a local, even a protesting local. It's the big, rowdy groups who get them so upset in Santiago. By all means, come on over and walk. You will marvel at how quiet it is, outside the cities.
I walked into Santiago a month ago. I did notice large groups coming through singing, yelling, racing across the square. Very noisy and triumphant.
In the time that I was there all of these large groups were Spanish. There was one small group of Italian cyclists, but apart from that all were large groups of young Spanish people having fun in their own country.
All of the buses I saw in the last 100kms were Spanish as well, although earlier before the Meseta there were buses of German and Koreans.
 
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I too find very hard to believe those numbers: 150,000 pilgrims on a single day in high season? According to Google, that would be 10 Obradoiros choke-full with pilgrims (and backpacks). Plus 125 Cathedrals for them to go to noon mass. Preposterous.
I made a serious effort to find information about what that sentence means: In the high season, there are 1.5 tourists per every local, or Compostelano—an even higher number than in other tourist hotspots like Barcelona or Palma de Mallorca.

The author of this line had just copy-pasted it from an article in La Voz de Galicia which does not include a definition either. So it is actually meaningless for the interested reader. It just insinuates that the situation in Santiago is somehow worse than in Barcelona where this so far undefined marker is lower (0,44) or Palmas (0,77) or in Granada (0,64).

On the website of the Concello, they've made two studies available that are at the centre of interest about (mass) tourism and Santiago. They are written in the Galician language which makes it hard reading for me.
 
Informe "O imposto sobre estadías turísticas para Santiago de Compostela"
Just for info - I have no "point to prove", I am merely interested in understanding what I read here and in the media - below is an extract from a table published in this "informe".

The headers of the columns are:
City - Tourists in 2023 according to an Enquisa de Ocupación Hoteleira conducted by the Spanish INE - Population in 2023 - Ratio Tourists/Population

Table tourists vs population in 2023.jpg

Needless to say, there are many other indicators, one of them is assessing the ratio between numbers of tourists and square kilometres of the most visited areas, for example the historic old town centre.
 
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@Kathar1na - what I meant is that I sincerely do not remember paying any tax separately the way that it's now. If it was built into the price it was not noticeable. It probably still is there but now in addition to, there is this "extra" tax payable on arrival. I just came back from being in France, Italy and Switzerland and had to pay extra (city I believe they all said it was) tax in every hotel o stayed
I payed a separate tax to rent an apartment or hotel in Austria more than 20 years ago. And it was a seperate tax,that the owners made clear, was going for tourist fees. In turn we usually got a town card which sometimes offered “one” free entrance to the town pool, free local buses, or other discounts.
 
@Marbe2 - HAH! we did get a free transportation card in Geneva! OK my tourist money at work! I feel better ;)

Again - I don't doubt that the tax existed (esp. after couple of you made it obvious) - I just don't ever remember paying it myself. Rec'n I'm getting old.....
 
Over 20 years ago, while I was enjoying a sabbatical in a hilly suburb of Bilbao, two friends from home twisted my arm to organise a trip to Lourdes. They thought, wrongly, it would be easier than from Glasgow...
In the event, it was my first experience of a tax on visitors. Makes sense. Guests, not family, deserve to pay for the privilege...
I have no problem at all with the idea. In the context of the camino even more so...
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
A recent article on the Gronze.com website addresses a major Santiago issue, namely the uncivic or uncivilised behaviour of pilgrims.

The author points out that it is a minority among the Camino pilgrim population who behaves in this manner and addresses some of their characteristics. He opines that this issue has to be addressed because otherwise there is a danger that the people of Santiago will start to stigmatise all pilgrims, without distinction, as a reaction of turismofobia, a growing phenomenon in many parts of the world.

Much of the article is nothing new but perhaps worth repeating:

Walking with respect
Is the traditional image of the pilgrim changing? Of course: it is not the same as it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago, let alone eight or nine centuries ago. Today, as caminantes [Camino walkers] - and let's not talk about cyclists - we inform ourselves beforehand, we equip ourselves, we plan the route, we consult forums and guides before setting off, we use websites and apps; the objective is no longer so much the adventure itself, but to enjoy a gratifying and enjoyable experience. But our essence, our attitude - and I think I share it with the vast majority of readers, forum members and users of Gronze - must continue to be to walk with respect: respect for the environment and its people, respect for the culture and traditions of each of the places we pass through; respect for this network of ancient routes and for those who strive to keep them alive, and respect for the rest of our companions, regardless of their origin or situation. Therefore, as mindful pilgrims, travellers or tourists that we are (I make no distinctions), we feel attacked in our innermost being when other users of the Camino act without manners, disrespect people, villages and monuments or damage the services and facilities available to us - regrettable facts that can only evoke disgust and the strongest condemnation.

 
I walked into Santiago a month ago. I did notice large groups coming through singing, yelling, racing across the square. Very noisy and triumphant.
In the time that I was there all of these large groups were Spanish. There was one small group of Italian cyclists, but apart from that all were large groups of young Spanish people having fun in their own country.
Forty percent of pilgrims are Spanish this year. A compostela is a customary rite of passage for many high school students. Even when raucous I observed them to be quite courteous to oldsters. I took an extra trash bag to pick up after them, so their regard for the environment may fall short of that for the aging!
 
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Will similar protests happen in Santiago? Refer to the rest of this thread.

Will they literally move to Santiago? If there are rabble-rousers involved (people doing it for the sake of making trouble and not for the pretended reason), then yes.
 
Joni Mitchell had it fairly covered “they pave Paradise, put up a parking lot”, though I was always fond of the rhyme in “they took all the trees put’em in a tree museum, and they charged all the people a dollar and a half just to see’em”.

The fact remains we are not stuck in traffic, we are traffic
"we are not stuck in traffic, we are traffic" - thank you for this little gem.
 
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It's now a month later since the start of the thread. The Barcelona water pistols have not yet moved to Santiago but the number of pilgrims arriving in Santiago has increased as it is high pilgrimage season now in July and August, and with it comes an increase of reports in the Galician news media and on social networks mirroring complaints about pilgrim behaviour, in particular irritating noise caused by walking poles on the pavement, cyclists driving where they are prohibited from doing so, screaming and chanting, and graffiti in the vicinity of the Obradoiro square and the Cathedral. The volume of graffiti is low, at least compared to other places I'd guess, but there is a fear that it will increase and become worse and turn into "a fashion".

"Mailena was here. Hello" and "A and G were bathing here" - yesterday's article in La Voz de Galicia:
 
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My original post from a month ago (9 July) was a simple question: "Will the Protest Against Tourists in Barcelona Come to Santiago?".

For me, the simple answer is, YES.

The next question is, when? Followed by, in what form?
 
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The next question is, in what form followed by when?
From my reading of the local news websites it seems like the main area of concern at the moment is the effect of large groups of pilgrims and some individuals behaving in crass and disrespectful ways. Though more general concerns about overall tourist numbers and their impact runs that a close second. The situation is slightly confused because both issues are being used for political point-scoring by opposing factions in both the city council and the provincial government.
 
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My original post from a month ago (9 July) was a simple question: "Will the Protest Against Tourists in Barcelona Come to Santiago?".

For me, the simple answer is, YES.

The next question is, when? Followed by, in what form?
If you knew the simple answer 270 posts ago, why ask the question. And why not give the answer to the next two questions, too: When? In which form? We can then discuss among ourselves what we assume to be the current issues in Santiago … 😶
 
My original post from a month ago (9 July) was a simple question: "Will the Protest Against Tourists in Barcelona Come to Santiago?".
You repeatedly insist that you asked a simple question, but it has been made clear in this long thread that your question was too complex for a simple answer, and further your question was poorly worded. Finally you told us your simple answer in post #268.

Now you have asked some even more complicated questions, as if this were a test and you are withholding your answer to see if we can get it right. Why don't you step forward and give your opinion now and save us another 270 posts?
 
My original post from a month ago (9 July) was a simple question: "Will the Protest Against Tourists in Barcelona Come to Santiago?".

For me, the simple answer is, YES.

The next question is, when? Followed by, in what form?
Hmm, I think you have mis-answered your own question. "Will the protests against tourists in Barcelona come to Santiago?" The answer to that question is an emphatic "No". Nobody in Barcelona gives a flying fig about what is happening in Santiago.

Meanwhile there have been protests in Santiago and in other parts of Galicia against the impacts of mass-tourism, the development constraints imposed on local people and the allocation of millions of Euros to promoting "Camino" and enhancing the "pilgrim experience. Those protests have been occurring for many years now. Those protesters wanted schools, health centres, transport and even the freedom to build or extend a dwelling on their own land.

Your question as to "when"? It's already happening. And "in what form?" - there are plenty of citations in this thread including the photo of the eloquent expression "Fuck El Camino".

Flogging a dead horse might be considered a sport in some sections of society but to keep on kicking its bones.... Really?
 
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Oh my, such anger. And for what? Because I do not write in the highly intelligent atmosphere of some of you and my "poorly worded" question is "too complex" does not mean it is not an understandable question. I would not have asked the question (#268) if I "knew the answer 270 posts ago"!

When I stated the answer to my original question was a YES, I believed the average person would understand that after reading all of the previous comments (some with informative downloads) I had realized that, "for me, the simple answer is YES", there will at some point in the future, be anti-tourist protests in the greater Santiago area.

My original question (#1) was just that, a question. My subsequent post (#268) was an answer to that original question. ( Now, I am sure you will somehow find this statement "a test")

As to when any protest might take place and what form the protest might express themselves? Well, a basic review of my question (#268) was that IT WAS A QUESTION! I never implied or stated that it was nothing other than just that, a question! How anyone could conclude that I had an answer is beyond me.

Now, can we get back to the original comment as stated in #1?---or close this thread?
 
As to when any protest might take place and what form the protest might express themselves? Well, a basic review of my question (#268) was that IT WAS A QUESTION! I never implied or stated that it was nothing other than just that, a question! How anyone could conclude that I had an answer is beyond me.

Now, can we get back to the original comment as stated in #1?---or close this thread?

I vote for CLOSING!
 
The one from Galicia (the round) and the one from Castilla & Leon. Individually numbered and made by the same people that make the ones you see on your walk.
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