markie6
Active Member
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Frances 2018, 2019 2022
yes I wasn't going thereThat was exactly my point....A pilgrim is still a tourist.
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yes I wasn't going thereThat was exactly my point....A pilgrim is still a tourist.
Yes, this is true,I think it could have become another Nepal without the tax, and indeed this was the thinking behind the introduction of that tax (high value, low volume).
The 1963 model :
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Only the mass printed one.
A 1785 Compostela :
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The oldest known Compostela certificate is dated 1321, but the document was likely introduced in the late 13th Century.
The Archbishop of Santiago first ordered the printing of Compostela certificates in the beginning of the 17th Century :
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HISTORIA DE LAS COMPOSTELAS
El libro publicado en edición digital es accesible a través de Amazon. Ha sido editado buscando una mayor divulgación con el menor ...fernandolalanda.blogspot.com
Con la Imprenta se abaratan los costos, lo que propicia que el arzobispo compostelano don Maximiliano de Austria (1603-1614) mandara imprimir unos certificados para que su limosnero los repartiese gratuitamente a los peregrinos pobres, que visitasen la basílica.
“Desde cuya época se entregó por el Veedor costeados por la Fabrica, sin exigir retribución alguna”.
Las Compostelanas vienen impresas con los espacios en blanco para ser personificados, a mano, con los nombres de los peregrinos, y para consignar la fecha en la que se extiende cada una.
That is when the modern printed Compostela came into being.
And the much older, historical versions were apparently given to anyone visiting the basilica or Cathedral.To satisy the long-haul pilgrims they could re-introduce the 300km certificate that was introduced in 1965 "...... the church began in 1965 to issue a special certificate to those who trekked more than 300 kilometers on foot." (Prof Sasha Pack, Revival of the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela: The Politics of Religious, National,and European Patrimony, 1879–1988)
Well that's one opinion of course, but then that depends what you mean by "medieval". And to know that the document has evolved over time is not to "misunderstand" it.Equating the contemporary Compostela with the medieval certificates issued by the Cathedral of Santiago is based on a misunderstanding.
But it is discounted for pilgrims who sleep in Albergues in the city.The tourist tax must be for everyone who sleeps in Santiago no groups excluded .![]()
Meanwhile, I had a look at what is actually happening in Santiago de Compostela with their tourist tax if anything.
It loooks like the tourist tax was proposed in August 2023 but the project has not yet made any advances. It is not clear whose fault it is, whether the new town administration has not pushed for it since the local election seven months ago or whether the regional government has not approved it yet because they are waiting for more information from the Santiago town administration.
The proposal of last year was for a tourist tax of €0.50 for staying one night in an albergue. Yes, 50 cents.
For other accommodation categories, the amount of this proposed tax is €1.50, €2, and €2.50 per night of stay, ending with €3 per night for five star hotels.
I do not know if you speak about Le Seuil. I do not think it is considered as a penalty, but more as means to get young people far from their bad habits.As to the use of it for the lifting of some secular penalty, to a very minor degree that persists to this very day, as some juvenile offenders in some schemes in Europe can walk a supervised Camino instead of some period of incarceration, as a kind of probation scheme, and the Compostela will serve as a proof to free them of that probation. I met one such pilgrim and his supervisor in early 2023.
@Pafayac, thank you for pointing out that the long-distance walking projects of organisations like the French Le Seuil and the Belgian Oikoten primarily aim at fostering a constructive approach with young people in trouble to help them gain confidence, temporarily remove them from their environment with its bad influence and empower them to find their own way in life. I think that Oikoten were the pioneers but now there are numerous such programmes initiated by other organisations and even by private persons with a tiny non-profit association as the background.I do not know if you speak about Le Seuil. I do not think it is considered as a penalty, but more as means to get young people far from their bad habits.
And I do not believe that the Compostela is involved (most of them do not walk until Santiago). The proof is rather the testimony of the supervisor and of the young people himself.
While the website still declares this, and the Compostela still says this, in reality one getting a Compostela need not make such a declaration. When you register, these are the options. As I mentioned above, I did not walk for a religious or spiritual purpose, and I expected and then asked for a Welcome Certificate, but it seems those aren’t given out any longer, and everyone gets the religious version no matter their stated intent.That perceptions of the Compostela have shifted greatly since the early 1990s is certain, but I don't think that changes the nature of the document, which remains religious and Catholic, and nor do the recent changes in the conditions for receiving one, not even the lifting of the condition of Confession which restricted the Compostela to Catholics and by exception a small number of non-Catholic Christians, as it has been replaced by a different condition of 100K or 200K, so that it remains a document issued by the Church subject to certain conditions which remain religious, including the necessary declaration of religious and/or spiritual purpose.
Others who walked this year have confirmed this. So we on the forum have to live with the duality of what actually happens on the one hand and what it says on websites that have not been updated on the other hand ... or what we believe to be a fact or an accurate interpretation of some text or other while it isn't ...As I mentioned above, I did not walk for a religious or spiritual purpose, and I expected and then asked for a Welcome Certificate, but it seems those aren’t given out any longer, and everyone gets the religious version no matter their stated intent.
It is the magical of the Camino. One can think there are only 2 answers:Not religious or Others or Religious - listed in this sequence.
@ShoshTrvls, you even helpfully posted a screenshot.
I guess that is a reference to Schrödinger's cat and quantum mechanics?Pilgrim Office has set a quantic Compostela ! ;-)
Thank you for adding this bit of information. I had forgotten about the scanners that are used to retrieve the data that the pilgrim had entered and to print her or his Compostela. As far as I remember, the scanners are a novelty and were introduced this year (2024). The use of kiosks with screens to be used by pilgrims to enter their data and application for their certificate is also fairly new.Once completed, you get a QR code which is scanned to print out the Compostela.
I actually just deleted that post because right now I don’t remember if they scanned the QR code to get the Compostela or if I received a number when checking in and then told the person at the desk what my name and number was.Thank you for adding this bit of information. I had forgotten about the scanners that are used to retrieve the data that the pilgrim had entered and to print her or his Compostela. As far as I remember, the scanners are a novelty and were introduced this year (2024). The use of kiosks with screens to be used by pilgrims to enter their data and application for their certificate is also fairly new.
How can you say that , there is no tourist tax yet.But it is discounted for pilgrims who sleep in Albergues in the city.
In the proposal, that is the case.How can you say that , there is no tourist tax yet.
Correct. Also, it may be useful to point out that nowhere in the news articles about this potential proposal for a tourist tax in Santiago does it say that there is a special rule or a special category of tourist tax for pilgrims in Santiago. It says so for albergues in Santiago. And albergues are not defined in Galicia as places where pilgrims stay, they are defined as establecimientos que ofrecen alojamiento por plaza, mayoritariamente en habitaciones de capacidad múltiple, and these establishments are not exclusively for pilgrims as a rule.there is no tourist tax yet.
As has been said, tourist taxes are widespread, charged in many countries and up to €5 per night is fairly typical. I imagine 99.9% of visitors are utterly oblivious to these charges, they are just part of the hotel bill. I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.The proposal of last year was for a tourist tax for maximum 6 days with a fee of €0.50 for a night in an albergue and then €1.50, €2, €2.50 per night of stay in other categories, ending with €3 for five star hotels.
You are correct, the Camino is great tourist income. A small hotel selling private rooms for 100 euros a night and then dinner and breakfast on top of that, well, it's a great business. The reasons why people to choose to walk the Camino are only important to the individual pilgrims, not the economic development of a region.I just finished a few weeks ago. Unpleasantly crowded, but it was high season.
I don't think that Spain wants to limit pilgrims. It’s an economic engine that they want to fuel. Those pilgrims walking and staying in municipals dont spend as much money as the rolling luggage tourist set. Why in the world would they discourage that?
You’re all so quaint with your“spiritual” camino!
The same will happen if it becomes too hard to find somewhere nice to sleep, or the trail starts looking like it’s a cattle track, or you have to queue for 30 minutes just to get that awful cup of Nescafé (other awful brands are available). People will look further afield, word will spread about comparable but nicer caminos and a levelling will take place.
I'd hate to see the Compostela removed entirely; however, I would be comfortable with a significant change in the emphasis of actually receiving this document...to reflect its importance. I wouldn't complain if pilgrims were limited to a single Compostela....akin to a sort of Camino birth certificate. You get one...and that's it (easily managed within a database). If a 'collection' of something is important to the individual pilgrim...then maybe the Distance Certificate is that vehicle.Why not do away with the Compostela entirely? Surely that would have an effect on the number of pilgrims focusing only on the last 100km.
Great, but awful picture. And there's only one Everest and only one (relatively) simple route.
The more recent news articles on the topic often suggest that the purpose of the money gathered would be to finance managing the consequences of the increase in the increasing number of tourists, pilgrims, and other visits to the city, so that cleaning up rubbish left by tourists, hiring personnel to deal with these people and their occasional unruly behaviour and also their legitimate needs doesn't siphon off funds used by the Municipality for the city's inhabitants and their own needs.I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.
In most cases, I suspect tourist taxes are not meant to reduce the number of tourists, but rather, to extract additional municipal revenue from them to offset the costs for municipal infrastructure and services that their presence creates.As has been said, tourist taxes are widespread, charged in many countries and up to €5 per night is fairly typical. I imagine 99.9% of visitors are utterly oblivious to these charges, they are just part of the hotel bill. I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.
I think it will solve itself, but it will take time and the end result will be something different to what we see now.
The problem almost certainly stems from an overall growth in tourism (including for religious reasons) and us tourists, as a generalisation, are becoming ever more fussy. I’ve noted, for future reference, that it seems hard to get a decent cup of coffee on some routes, and this illustrates the point: we want our latte’s, mocha’s, skinny white’s and so on. A cup of instant will just about do for emergencies, but honestly, that’s just not good enough, is it, not in this day and age, and people (me included) will invest energy into finding somewhere that offers proper coffee.
The same will happen if it becomes too hard to find somewhere nice to sleep, or the trail starts looking like it’s a cattle track, or you have to queue for 30 minutes just to get that awful cup of Nescafé (other awful brands are available). People will look further afield, word will spread about comparable but nicer caminos and a levelling will take place.
But unfortunately, they’ll all still end up in SdC…
BTW, on another thread I just mentioned that @sillydoll, forum member #8, is the member still active on the forum who has been around the longest (except for member #1, @ivar himself). Twenty year anniversary coming up later this year.PS: I have walked to Santiago 13 times and have 3 certificates - 2 Compostelas and a Welcome Certificate.
I only stayed in 3 Albergues between Sarria and Santiago last month. Each I walked into at end of day with no reservation and got an entire dorm room to myself.I completely agree it's impossible to say anything definitive without extensive research on the terrain. My knowledge of the situation is based on the occasional browsing of this forum and my last CF which was may-june 2022.
I ran into one continuous cludge of pilgrims out of Portomarin (I slept in Morgade) when it seemed that all daypacks left the town after breakfast at about eight. I waited them out then continued to San Xulian (called in the afternoon and got what looked to be the last bed).
I called Morgade in the morning when I decided where I wanted to stay and was lucky to get a bed. I came from Lusio where I had all the amazing albergue mansion to myself.
The next day I stayed in off-route albergue in Taberna Vella and there were only three or four of us there. I had a room to myself.
Before Galicia, I sometimes called ahead if I really wanted to stay somewhere and sometimes I just winged it.
There were a few full towns, like Pamplona on a Saturday (I stopped early in Casa Paderborn), Mansilla and Foncebadon, where pilgrims needed to find alternatives.
But even albergues in mid-stage towns filled up by the end of the day (Uterga, Atapuerca, Poblacion de Campos, Riego de Ambros).
Only truly off-stage albergues were not full (Luquin, Pradela, Lusio).
I didn't have run-ins with any groups, though, fortunately.
That was supposed to be the not-so-busy period before 2023 crowds.
You were really lucky then.I only stayed in 3 Albergues between Sarria and Santiago last month. Each I walked into at end of day with no reservation and got an entire dorm room to myself.![]()
Still not making any sense. If you move a bridge to a different location, that is not evidence that the same river flowed underneath it.I understood that is where London Bridge is located. Clearly evidence that the Thames flowed there!
I'm not sure why you are finding this a problem. As others have pointed out, it is the same rhetorical logic that you have used yourself, so I wasn't expecting that you would find the proposition all that difficult to acceptStill not making any sense. If you move a bridge to a different location, that is not evidence that the same river flowed underneath it.
ZI just finished a few weeks ago. Unpleasantly crowded, but it was high season.
I don't think that Spain wants to limit pilgrims. It’s an economic engine that they want to fuel. Those pilgrims walking and staying in municipals dont spend as much money as the rolling luggage tourist set. Why in the world would they discourage that?
You’re all so quaint with your“spiritual” camino!
I'm not getting your point. What is your concern?Spiritual, not "spiritual"
I am also not sure what you mean? There is no capitilazation required in that sentence as far as I can tell. Unless you mean emphasis?Z
Spiritual, not "spiritual"
Agree, and not in spirit with a pilgrimage IMO!The offense being what? Walking in Spain without a permit? Non-resident-of-local-area walking in Spain without a permit?
That would be a very serious infringement on the whole idea of freedom of movement.
The indulgence is separate from the Compostela. For the indulgence, you need to get there, reverence the bones, go to Mass and receive the Eucharist, confess in a reasonable time (like a couple of weeks) of these other things, reject and be unattached to sins. There is not receipt for the indulgence. Only God and you know you have done it. Well, if you tell the priest you're confessing to complete the indulgence he'll probably say something after he assigns your penance and reads the prayer of forgiveness. But: no papers. No medals. It's a spiritual good. Any further would probably trespass on the rules of the Forum, so enough said.As I am not a Catholic, I confess (pun intended) I’m not quite sure what the Compostela does for most people other than acknowledge that they have walked at least 100KM to a very important religious place since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year and require additional steps, such as confession, which few do.
So it does seem to me that many people may feel satisfied with their accomplishments if they received some form of recognition/acknowledgement other places on the Camino with historical or religious significance. Walking 100km to Padron for a Padronia, for example, or maybe getting a document of some sort at the magnificent Cathedral in Leon. That might, over time, move the needle on reducing some of the congestion into SdC.
Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate. It is indeed Saint James, and this Santiago is Santiago El Mayor, St. James the Elder, there is another apostle Saint James the Younger who lived his whole life in the Jerusalem area I think. That the Camino is being referred to by its Spanish language name is just one of those things people do. The actual name has not changed."In English, even the name of the saint has disappeared from the name of the pilgrimage road in common parlance. It is now the Camino de Santiago and no longer Way of Saint James."
At a guess, @Kathar1na was making the point that in using the Spanish language name as non-Spanish speakers, the walkers are unaware or are losing sight of the St. James piece. Certainly I see this with Anglo-Canadians familiar with the "Camino de Santiago" who cannot figure out the "Chemin St. Jacques".Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate. It is indeed Saint James, and this Santiago is Santiago El Mayor, St. James the Elder, there is another apostle Saint James the Younger who lived his whole life in the Jerusalem area I think. That the Camino is being referred to by its Spanish language name is just one of those things people do. The actual name has not changed.
BC to all.
Do you mean the ancient waymarkers that are crucifixes? The modern decorative waymarkers that appear on some routes? The signs in some tiny villages? Clarity would help here.I'm not talking about a statue of a pilgrims.
Instead I am talking about the type of statues that guide
pilgrims to Santiago.
And many think that it's the Camino Francis, or the Camino St Francis.At a guess, @Kathar1na was making the point that in using the Spanish language name as non-Spanish speakers, the walkers are unaware or are losing site of the St. James piece. Certainly I see this with Anglo-Canadians familiar with the "Camino de Santiago" who cannot figure out the "Chemin St. Jacques".
Actually, sadly it's not even that. At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela. You certainly do not have to walk the camino in honor of St James.The Compostela is a gracious paper that acknowledges your visit to the Cathedral in honor of Santiago El Mayor
Sorry I have no idea what you're trying to say?BC to all.
Buen Camino?Sorry I have no idea what you're trying to say?
Oh my goodness, I can be dense sometimes!Buen Camino?
Thank you for your advice.Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate
I just did it a couple of weeks ago. One signs up online and receives a QR code. It is shown to a gentleman at the door, who gives you a number to stand in line, kind of like being in a NYC deli. The numbers are shown on large TV screens with directions to a numbered person behind a counter, who looks at the credential and prints out your Compostela before exiting through a gift shop area. Not exactly the experience I had with my first Camino in 2012, and more than a little disappointing. The times, they are a changing.I actually just deleted that post because right now I don’t remember if they scanned the QR code to get the Compostela or if I received a number when checking in and then told the person at the desk what my name and number was.
If someone else remembers the exact process, I hope they will weigh in.
No, it is not the same rhetorical logic that I use at all.I'm not sure why you are finding this a problem. As others have pointed out, it is the same rhetorical logic that you have used yourself, so I wasn't expecting that you would find the proposition all that difficult to accept![]()
Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements.
I have not read the rules, but have seen this same thing mentioned on the forum several times in recent years. I always order mine from "American Pilgrims on the Camino" and it still qualifies.Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.
I know that the credencial provided by the Canadian Company of pilgrims had to be changed a bit to keep it in accordance with the rules set out by the Cathedral and receive their approval.I have not read the rules, but have seen this same thing mentioned on the forum several times in recent years. I always order mine from "American Pilgrims on the Camino" and it still qualifies.
No, I'm not sure, but it certainly applied July last year when a friend of mine walked in with a notebook and obtained her Compostela. She simply explained that nothing was open to get a Credencial between her arrival and departure on the Primitivo. Incidentally she got two Compostelas with the same notebook, because she also walked the Inglés immediately afterwards.Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.
You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements.
Are you sure this is still the case?
Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.No, I'm not sure, but it certainly applied July last year when a friend of mine walked in with a notebook and obtained her Compostela.
I did not give that out as 'reliable advice', for context please read the entire post (#248). In that post I am simply pointing out how extremely easy the Compostela is to obtain.Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.
That was however last year.
As you say if the Compostela is important to you then clearly getting the appropriate credencial is a good idea.
I think our response was conditioned by the many people who also say based on real life experience that two stamps a day are not needed after Sarria if one has walked from SJPP. Unfortunately, other people have had different real life experiences.I simply made a point based on real life experience.
Fair comment. But at no point was it presented as advice and it has been taken completely out of context.I think our response was conditioned by the many people who also say based on real life experience that two stamps a day are not needed after Sarria if one has walked from SJPP. Unfortunately, other people have had different real life experiences.
You may not have meant it as advice. But when I read:CLFair comment. But at no point was it presented as advice and it has been taken completely out of context.
My first thought was that someone might read that and think "Let's do that, take a notebook rather than a credencial. It will be so much more meaningful."You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements. Said stamps supposedly proving that you have walked/cycled etc a minimum of the last 100/200 km to Santiago on a recognized route. Or even show the volunteers a video or sufficient photos of said walk/ride. You'll get your Compostela.
Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.
I'm sorry you feel that it was taken out of context, but I disagree.. the relevant wording, the bit that some folk will get stuck in their heads was quoted, as I prefer to present such things simply, clearly and to the point.it has been taken completely out of context.
You may not have meant it as advice. But when I read:
My first thought was that someone might read that and think "Let's do that, take a notebook rather than a credencial. It will be so much more meaningful."
You said "You'll get your Compostela." not "You might get your Compostela; people have." I thought it was important to make people aware of the risks, the same way I do when anyone reports having got a Compostela without two stamps a day for the last 100 km.
It is not just us who may be reading this out of context, but people thinking about what they will do to get their Compostela.
The concern you both raise is valid: I cannot control how people interpret my words.I'm sorry you feel that it was taken out of context, but I disagree.. the relevant wording, the bit that some folk will get stuck in their heads was quoted, as I prefer to present such things simply, clearly and to the point.
Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.The concern you both raise is valid: I cannot control how people interpret my words.
I have edited the post accordingly
The Usual Suspects.Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.
Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.
The Usual Suspects.![]()
Isn't water water, then what it lands on is wet? (Just trying to see if your comment holds water.)Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.
Anyone reading the last five posts would have no idea what this thread is about. Just saying.
The Pilgrims Office is part of the Cathedral Parish premises, and so it is technically a part of the Cathedral.At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela.
Actually, sadly it's not even that. At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela. You certainly do not have to walk the camino in honor of St James.
The Pilgrims Office is part of the Cathedral Parish premises, and so it is technically a part of the Cathedral.
Whoever wrote that text likely had no conception of how much misunderstanding of general ecclesial knowledge would emerge between the 18th and 21st Centuries.That sounds like stretching definitions a very long way. I doubt that whoever wrote the Compostela text had a building in Rua das Carretas in mind.