A call for regulation or permit on the Francés

[markie6]

That was exactly my point....A pilgrim is still a tourist.

yes I wasn't going there

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I think it could have become another Nepal without the tax, and indeed this was the thinking behind the introduction of that tax (high value, low volume).

Yes, this is true,

 

[Kathor1]

And back to Santiago again :

While their modest tourist tax proposal appears to be languishing on ice, the town administration has been asked and responded about other measures to combat gentrification, reduce unwelcome effects of tourist crowds and fight uncivil behaviour of visitors: Unlike in Sevilla, the idea of requiring visitors to pay for access to specific areas like the Obradoiro Square is ruled out.

A video had been developed to raise the awareness of visitors. I guess that none of us has it seen before. But it is on YouTube.

All of this addresses the concerns of the citizens of Santiago and not the concerns of the peregrin@s on the Camino Francés from Sarría. Have a look. I liked the "False Traditions" bit .

 

[LTfit]

The 1963 model :

Only the mass printed one.

A 1785 Compostela :

The oldest known Compostela certificate is dated 1321, but the document was likely introduced in the late 13th Century.

The Archbishop of Santiago first ordered the printing of Compostela certificates in the beginning of the 17th Century :

HISTORIA DE LAS COMPOSTELAS

El libro publicado en edición digital es accesible a través de Amazon. Ha sido editado buscando una mayor divulgación con el menor ...

fernandolalanda.blogspot.com

Con la Imprenta se abaratan los costos, lo que propicia que el arzobispo compostelano don Maximiliano de Austria (1603-1614) mandara imprimir unos certificados para que su limosnero los repartiese gratuitamente a los peregrinos pobres, que visitasen la basílica.

“Desde cuya época se entregó por el Veedor costeados por la Fabrica, sin exigir retribución alguna”.
Las Compostelanas vienen impresas con los espacios en blanco para ser personificados, a mano, con los nombres de los peregrinos, y para consignar la fecha en la que se extiende cada una.


That is when the modern printed Compostela came into being.

Thanks for the information and pictures but as I mentioned in my previous post, I was referring to the current Compostela and the 100 km walking requirement.

According to @sillydoll early on in the thread the 1963 version was for pilgrims walking at least 300 km.

To satisy the long-haul pilgrims they could re-introduce the 300km certificate that was introduced in 1965 "...... the church began in 1965 to issue a special certificate to those who trekked more than 300 kilometers on foot." (Prof Sasha Pack, Revival of the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela: The Politics of Religious, National,and European Patrimony, 1879–1988)

And the much older, historical versions were apparently given to anyone visiting the basilica or Cathedral.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Equating the contemporary Compostela with the medieval certificates issued by the Cathedral of Santiago is based on a misunderstanding.

Well that's one opinion of course, but then that depends what you mean by "medieval". And to know that the document has evolved over time is not to "misunderstand" it.

The purpose of the document as a proof that one's penalty of minor excommunication had been lifted vanished during the Middle Ages, when Pope Martin V abolished that form of excommunication, and even between the 13th and 15th Centuries that penalty was typically lifted by non or more local perambulatory means (other forms of penitential acts or local pilgrimages).

As to the use of it for the lifting of some secular penalty, to a very minor degree that persists to this very day, as some juvenile offenders in some schemes in Europe can walk a supervised Camino instead of some period of incarceration, as a kind of probation scheme, and the Compostela will serve as a proof to free them of that probation. I met one such pilgrim and his supervisor in early 2023.

As to ecclesial penalties, I'm sure that on occasion they can be lifted by accomplishing a pilgrimage, among them the Camino, but one is very unlikely to hear much in the open about such things as they would be covered by the Secret of Confession.

That perceptions of the Compostela have shifted greatly since the early 1990s is certain, but I don't think that changes the nature of the document, which remains religious and Catholic, and nor do the recent changes in the conditions for receiving one, not even the lifting of the condition of Confession which restricted the Compostela to Catholics and by exception a small number of non-Catholic Christians, as it has been replaced by a different condition of 100K or 200K, so that it remains a document issued by the Church subject to certain conditions which remain religious, including the necessary declaration of religious and/or spiritual purpose.

And the History of the Compostela still goes back to the 13th Century and not just the 1990s.

As to the present text of the Compostela, the "sive equitando" mention for the 100K condition is a very recent change of the late 2010s or early 2020s so that if textual changes to the document are what define it, then the current Compostela would not date back to the 1990s. But then I certainly do not think that textual changes to the document over the Centuries are what define its nature nor purposes.

 

[JabbaPapa]

The tourist tax must be for everyone who sleeps in Santiago no groups excluded .

But it is discounted for pilgrims who sleep in Albergues in the city.

 

[caminka]

Meanwhile, I had a look at what is actually happening in Santiago de Compostela with their tourist tax if anything.

It loooks like the tourist tax was proposed in August 2023 but the project has not yet made any advances. It is not clear whose fault it is, whether the new town administration has not pushed for it since the local election seven months ago or whether the regional government has not approved it yet because they are waiting for more information from the Santiago town administration.

The proposal of last year was for a tourist tax of €0.50 for staying one night in an albergue. Yes, 50 cents.

For other accommodation categories, the amount of this proposed tax is €1.50, €2, and €2.50 per night of stay, ending with €3 per night for five star hotels.

In every at least somewhat touristy town in France I've ever stayed in this has been standard for years. The tourist tax increases with the comfort level / category of the accommodation. Sometimes it's included in the cost (often in pilgrim-related establishments) but is more often added to the cost.
I've also encountered other 'taxes' such as 'environmental' or 'carbon imprint'.

 

[Pafayac]

As to the use of it for the lifting of some secular penalty, to a very minor degree that persists to this very day, as some juvenile offenders in some schemes in Europe can walk a supervised Camino instead of some period of incarceration, as a kind of probation scheme, and the Compostela will serve as a proof to free them of that probation. I met one such pilgrim and his supervisor in early 2023.

I do not know if you speak about Le Seuil. I do not think it is considered as a penalty, but more as means to get young people far from their bad habits.
And I do not believe that the Compostela is involved (most of them do not walk until Santiago). The proof is rather the testimony of the supervisor and of the young people himself.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I do not know if you speak about Le Seuil.

No.

 

[Kathor1]

I do not know if you speak about Le Seuil. I do not think it is considered as a penalty, but more as means to get young people far from their bad habits.
And I do not believe that the Compostela is involved (most of them do not walk until Santiago). The proof is rather the testimony of the supervisor and of the young people himself.

@Pafayac, thank you for pointing out that the long-distance walking projects of organisations like the French Le Seuil and the Belgian Oikoten primarily aim at fostering a constructive approach with young people in trouble to help them gain confidence, temporarily remove them from their environment with its bad influence and empower them to find their own way in life. I think that Oikoten were the pioneers but now there are numerous such programmes initiated by other organisations and even by private persons with a tiny non-profit association as the background.

And I agree with you: I don't think that many readers would believe that the Compostela - a colourful certificate that confirms in Latin that the holder walked the last 100 km to Santiago - would be accepted by any authority in the youth protection and youth rehabilitation field in their country of origin as a proof to anything else than having walked 100 km in Spain - if such a certificate matters at all in this context. These are usually projects lasting several weeks to several months and reaching Santiago is often not even planned.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

That perceptions of the Compostela have shifted greatly since the early 1990s is certain, but I don't think that changes the nature of the document, which remains religious and Catholic, and nor do the recent changes in the conditions for receiving one, not even the lifting of the condition of Confession which restricted the Compostela to Catholics and by exception a small number of non-Catholic Christians, as it has been replaced by a different condition of 100K or 200K, so that it remains a document issued by the Church subject to certain conditions which remain religious, including the necessary declaration of religious and/or spiritual purpose.

While the website still declares this, and the Compostela still says this, in reality one getting a Compostela need not make such a declaration. When you register, these are the options. As I mentioned above, I did not walk for a religious or spiritual purpose, and I expected and then asked for a Welcome Certificate, but it seems those aren’t given out any longer, and everyone gets the religious version no matter their stated intent.

.

 

[Kathor1]

As I mentioned above, I did not walk for a religious or spiritual purpose, and I expected and then asked for a Welcome Certificate, but it seems those aren’t given out any longer, and everyone gets the religious version no matter their stated intent.

Others who walked this year have confirmed this. So we on the forum have to live with the duality of what actually happens on the one hand and what it says on websites that have not been updated on the other hand ... or what we believe to be a fact or an accurate interpretation of some text or other while it isn't ...

 

[Pafayac]

Not religious or Others or Religious - listed in this sequence.

It is the magical of the Camino. One can think there are only 2 answers:
- Religious
- Not religious
But no, indeed there is a 3rd way "Others", which should represent both "religious" and "not religious".
Pilgrim Office has set a quantic Compostela ! ;-)

 

[Kathor1]

View attachment 171811.

@ShoshTrvls, you even helpfully posted a screenshot.

Of course anyone could go to the website of the Pilgrim Office and see what current pilgrims have to do if one has not yet had the experience of the current process.

Please correct me if I am wrong but this is the current process: You scan the QR code in the credencial issued by the Cathedral. It takes you to the website with the title Pilgrim registration. You fill in the required fields, such as your name, the Camino you walked, the town where you started. In the field Reasons for pilgrimage you have three options and you must chose one and you can chose only one: either Not religious or Others or Religious - listed in this sequence. You can click the box Print mileage certificate but you don't have to - it refers to the Distance Certificate. You click on End registration. You go to the Pilgrim Office. And they give you a Compostela.

Not so hard to understand imho. There has never been any explanation about these changes from the Pilgrim Office. There are no instructions or explanations on the Pilgrim Registration webpage of the Pilgrim Office. Perhaps there is a little room for improvement as to transparency and usability ...

 

[Kathor1]

Pilgrim Office has set a quantic Compostela ! ;-)

I guess that is a reference to Schrödinger's cat and quantum mechanics?

That's advanced physics. In maths, a homogeneous polynomial, sometimes called quantic in older texts, is a polynomial whose nonzero terms all have the same degree. I've never seen the term quantic in this context so I conclude that I am not that old. But whatever it is, it is not on the Pilgrim Office's website.

Gosh, we have drifted ...

 

[Kathor1]

Once completed, you get a QR code which is scanned to print out the Compostela.

Thank you for adding this bit of information. I had forgotten about the scanners that are used to retrieve the data that the pilgrim had entered and to print her or his Compostela. As far as I remember, the scanners are a novelty and were introduced this year (2024). The use of kiosks with screens to be used by pilgrims to enter their data and application for their certificate is also fairly new.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

Thank you for adding this bit of information. I had forgotten about the scanners that are used to retrieve the data that the pilgrim had entered and to print her or his Compostela. As far as I remember, the scanners are a novelty and were introduced this year (2024). The use of kiosks with screens to be used by pilgrims to enter their data and application for their certificate is also fairly new.

I actually just deleted that post because right now I don’t remember if they scanned the QR code to get the Compostela or if I received a number when checking in and then told the person at the desk what my name and number was.

If someone else remembers the exact process, I hope they will weigh in.

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

But it is discounted for pilgrims who sleep in Albergues in the city.

How can you say that , there is no tourist tax yet.

 

[JabbaPapa]

How can you say that , there is no tourist tax yet.

In the proposal, that is the case.

 

[Kathor1]

there is no tourist tax yet.

Correct. Also, it may be useful to point out that nowhere in the news articles about this potential proposal for a tourist tax in Santiago does it say that there is a special rule or a special category of tourist tax for pilgrims in Santiago. It says so for albergues in Santiago. And albergues are not defined in Galicia as places where pilgrims stay, they are defined as establecimientos que ofrecen alojamiento por plaza, mayoritariamente en habitaciones de capacidad múltiple, and these establishments are not exclusively for pilgrims as a rule.

TL;DR: There is no tourist tax in Santiago. If they introduce a tourist tax and if it is only €0.50 for the cheapest category of accommodation it is unlikely to have the effect of regulating let alone reducing the number of pilgrims on the Camino Francés from Sarria or from SJPP for that matter.

 

[JabbaPapa]

What I find is phrases like "En el caso de alojamientos básicos y hostales, la tasa a abonar sería de 50 céntimos". I guess at the time I was reading about it on Camino websites that were focusing on how it might impact pilgrims in particular in relation to non-pilgrims.

 

[KevinWilcox]

The proposal of last year was for a tourist tax for maximum 6 days with a fee of €0.50 for a night in an albergue and then €1.50, €2, €2.50 per night of stay in other categories, ending with €3 for five star hotels.

As has been said, tourist taxes are widespread, charged in many countries and up to €5 per night is fairly typical. I imagine 99.9% of visitors are utterly oblivious to these charges, they are just part of the hotel bill. I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.

I think it will solve itself, but it will take time and the end result will be something different to what we see now.

The problem almost certainly stems from an overall growth in tourism (including for religious reasons) and us tourists, as a generalisation, are becoming ever more fussy. I’ve noted, for future reference, that it seems hard to get a decent cup of coffee on some routes, and this illustrates the point: we want our latte’s, mocha’s, skinny white’s and so on. A cup of instant will just about do for emergencies, but honestly, that’s just not good enough, is it, not in this day and age, and people (me included) will invest energy into finding somewhere that offers proper coffee.

The same will happen if it becomes too hard to find somewhere nice to sleep, or the trail starts looking like it’s a cattle track, or you have to queue for 30 minutes just to get that awful cup of Nescafé (other awful brands are available). People will look further afield, word will spread about comparable but nicer caminos and a levelling will take place.

But unfortunately, they’ll all still end up in SdC…

 

[CaminoPhotos]

I just finished a few weeks ago. Unpleasantly crowded, but it was high season.

I don't think that Spain wants to limit pilgrims. It’s an economic engine that they want to fuel. Those pilgrims walking and staying in municipals dont spend as much money as the rolling luggage tourist set. Why in the world would they discourage that?

You’re all so quaint with your“spiritual” camino!

You are correct, the Camino is great tourist income. A small hotel selling private rooms for 100 euros a night and then dinner and breakfast on top of that, well, it's a great business. The reasons why people to choose to walk the Camino are only important to the individual pilgrims, not the economic development of a region.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

The same will happen if it becomes too hard to find somewhere nice to sleep, or the trail starts looking like it’s a cattle track, or you have to queue for 30 minutes just to get that awful cup of Nescafé (other awful brands are available). People will look further afield, word will spread about comparable but nicer caminos and a levelling will take place.

Maybe, maybe not.

“Cattle Track”

 

[Kev&Kath]

Why not do away with the Compostela entirely? Surely that would have an effect on the number of pilgrims focusing only on the last 100km.

I'd hate to see the Compostela removed entirely; however, I would be comfortable with a significant change in the emphasis of actually receiving this document...to reflect its importance. I wouldn't complain if pilgrims were limited to a single Compostela....akin to a sort of Camino birth certificate. You get one...and that's it (easily managed within a database). If a 'collection' of something is important to the individual pilgrim...then maybe the Distance Certificate is that vehicle.

 

[KevinWilcox]

Maybe, maybe not.

“Cattle Track”

Great, but awful picture. And there's only one Everest and only one (relatively) simple route.

 

[Graham-R]

My 0.02c would be to ‘fix’ other routes, met a few pilgrims saying the Norte route was just a mud slide and a lot of them jumped ship to another route.

Promote other routes to Camino travel companies. Maybe start another few routes…

Have certs in other places like they have in Finnisterre and Muxia.

Specifically the Sarria 100km, have additional accommodations off the main route, just a few km detour. Give grants to existing to expand like they did with covid grants to refurb.

Wouldnt worry about the compostella, its not what it was, might mean more if your local Church/Camino Society hands you one, perhaps a few times a year have a ceremony…

Promote winter caminos, last 100s, might help distribute the load and give some workers better conditions i.e. permanent staff rather than seasonal.

Maybe its just covid catchup and bucket listers and schools fed up of the disney land trips… might just peter out in time…

The only way I can see permits working is for guided tours, only so many on route at a time and where you stay has to be lodged in advance so can put a quota for groups at a specific town/lodging…

 

[JabbaPapa]

I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.

The more recent news articles on the topic often suggest that the purpose of the money gathered would be to finance managing the consequences of the increase in the increasing number of tourists, pilgrims, and other visits to the city, so that cleaning up rubbish left by tourists, hiring personnel to deal with these people and their occasional unruly behaviour and also their legitimate needs doesn't siphon off funds used by the Municipality for the city's inhabitants and their own needs.

There are also suggestions in some of the articles that other Municipalities in Galicia impacted by high tourist numbers could implement the same tax, whether year-round or seasonally.

 

[David Tallan]

As has been said, tourist taxes are widespread, charged in many countries and up to €5 per night is fairly typical. I imagine 99.9% of visitors are utterly oblivious to these charges, they are just part of the hotel bill. I also suspect these taxes have absolutely zero impact on the number of visitors. So, taxing people to stay in SdC doesn’t look like much of a solution and especially not one for the problem of overcrowding on key sections.

I think it will solve itself, but it will take time and the end result will be something different to what we see now.

The problem almost certainly stems from an overall growth in tourism (including for religious reasons) and us tourists, as a generalisation, are becoming ever more fussy. I’ve noted, for future reference, that it seems hard to get a decent cup of coffee on some routes, and this illustrates the point: we want our latte’s, mocha’s, skinny white’s and so on. A cup of instant will just about do for emergencies, but honestly, that’s just not good enough, is it, not in this day and age, and people (me included) will invest energy into finding somewhere that offers proper coffee.

The same will happen if it becomes too hard to find somewhere nice to sleep, or the trail starts looking like it’s a cattle track, or you have to queue for 30 minutes just to get that awful cup of Nescafé (other awful brands are available). People will look further afield, word will spread about comparable but nicer caminos and a levelling will take place.

But unfortunately, they’ll all still end up in SdC…

In most cases, I suspect tourist taxes are not meant to reduce the number of tourists, but rather, to extract additional municipal revenue from them to offset the costs for municipal infrastructure and services that their presence creates.

Reducing the number of tourists is a whole other kettle of fish. I expect most municipalities would rather increase infrastructure, so that the numbers are not a problem, rather than reduce tourists to fit within existing infrastructure. I think we can all be glad that was the approach in the 20th century when the number of pilgrims started to grow beyond existing infrastructure.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

PS: I have walked to Santiago 13 times and have 3 certificates - 2 Compostelas and a Welcome Certificate.

BTW, on another thread I just mentioned that @sillydoll, forum member #8, is the member still active on the forum who has been around the longest (except for member #1, @ivar himself). Twenty year anniversary coming up later this year.

 

[KevinWilcox]

I like, and am very open to, the idea of alternatives. None of my group is catholic so there is nothing that binds us to a camino that starts or ends in SdC, we just liked the idea of relatively easy long-distance walking in the Iberian peninsula with good infrastructure and support for ageing bodies. So if there are suggestions, we may be able to contribute in a small way towards decompressing the normal routes. (And of course I'll do some web-searching).

 

[mattythedog]

I completely agree it's impossible to say anything definitive without extensive research on the terrain. My knowledge of the situation is based on the occasional browsing of this forum and my last CF which was may-june 2022.

I ran into one continuous cludge of pilgrims out of Portomarin (I slept in Morgade) when it seemed that all daypacks left the town after breakfast at about eight. I waited them out then continued to San Xulian (called in the afternoon and got what looked to be the last bed).
I called Morgade in the morning when I decided where I wanted to stay and was lucky to get a bed. I came from Lusio where I had all the amazing albergue mansion to myself.
The next day I stayed in off-route albergue in Taberna Vella and there were only three or four of us there. I had a room to myself.

Before Galicia, I sometimes called ahead if I really wanted to stay somewhere and sometimes I just winged it.
There were a few full towns, like Pamplona on a Saturday (I stopped early in Casa Paderborn), Mansilla and Foncebadon, where pilgrims needed to find alternatives.
But even albergues in mid-stage towns filled up by the end of the day (Uterga, Atapuerca, Poblacion de Campos, Riego de Ambros).
Only truly off-stage albergues were not full (Luquin, Pradela, Lusio).
I didn't have run-ins with any groups, though, fortunately.
That was supposed to be the not-so-busy period before 2023 crowds.

I only stayed in 3 Albergues between Sarria and Santiago last month. Each I walked into at end of day with no reservation and got an entire dorm room to myself.

 

[caminka]

I only stayed in 3 Albergues between Sarria and Santiago last month. Each I walked into at end of day with no reservation and got an entire dorm room to myself.

You were really lucky then.
I will take a guess: Hospital, Mato Casanova and Astrar?

 

[isawtman]

I understood that is where London Bridge is located. Clearly evidence that the Thames flowed there!

Still not making any sense. If you move a bridge to a different location, that is not evidence that the same river flowed underneath it.

 

[dougfitz]

Still not making any sense. If you move a bridge to a different location, that is not evidence that the same river flowed underneath it.

I'm not sure why you are finding this a problem. As others have pointed out, it is the same rhetorical logic that you have used yourself, so I wasn't expecting that you would find the proposition all that difficult to accept

 

[JCarpenter]

I just finished a few weeks ago. Unpleasantly crowded, but it was high season.

I don't think that Spain wants to limit pilgrims. It’s an economic engine that they want to fuel. Those pilgrims walking and staying in municipals dont spend as much money as the rolling luggage tourist set. Why in the world would they discourage that?

You’re all so quaint with your“spiritual” camino!

Z
Spiritual, not "spiritual"

 

[dougfitz]

Spiritual, not "spiritual"

I'm not getting your point. What is your concern?

 

[Tincatinker]

Capitalization at the beginning of a sentence? Or, perhaps, a reference to that ritualized song form popular in the Southern Baptist church?

Edit: the musical indication is the only noun form I can find.

 

[lalaone]

Air quotes, sometimes called scare quotes? It's so hard to parse meaning in real life, let alone online, but spiritual and "spiritual" could hit differently

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Z
Spiritual, not "spiritual"

I am also not sure what you mean? There is no capitilazation required in that sentence as far as I can tell. Unless you mean emphasis?

But I am assuming you are misunderstooding my intent. I thought I was obviously being sarcastic when I put the quotation marks around spiritual followed by a laughing emoji.

I do believe in the spiritual aspects of the Camino. But Pilgrims make a choice. And most are not focused on spirituality.

What I am saying is that I also don't think most locals in Camino towns are thinking about spiritualitty. They are just thinking about the bottom line. The benefit to the local economy. And whether it's worth the hassle of having all these people walking down the street all the time.

Of course I have no research to back this up, except my direct observation.

 

[Marbe2]

The offense being what? Walking in Spain without a permit? Non-resident-of-local-area walking in Spain without a permit?

That would be a very serious infringement on the whole idea of freedom of movement.

Agree, and not in spirit with a pilgrimage IMO!

 

[Texas Walker]

As I am not a Catholic, I confess (pun intended) I’m not quite sure what the Compostela does for most people other than acknowledge that they have walked at least 100KM to a very important religious place since indulgences are now only given on certain days and in a holy year and require additional steps, such as confession, which few do.

So it does seem to me that many people may feel satisfied with their accomplishments if they received some form of recognition/acknowledgement other places on the Camino with historical or religious significance. Walking 100km to Padron for a Padronia, for example, or maybe getting a document of some sort at the magnificent Cathedral in Leon. That might, over time, move the needle on reducing some of the congestion into SdC.

The indulgence is separate from the Compostela. For the indulgence, you need to get there, reverence the bones, go to Mass and receive the Eucharist, confess in a reasonable time (like a couple of weeks) of these other things, reject and be unattached to sins. There is not receipt for the indulgence. Only God and you know you have done it. Well, if you tell the priest you're confessing to complete the indulgence he'll probably say something after he assigns your penance and reads the prayer of forgiveness. But: no papers. No medals. It's a spiritual good. Any further would probably trespass on the rules of the Forum, so enough said.

The Compostela is a gracious paper that acknowledges your visit to the Cathedral in honor of Santiago El Mayor. I treasure all of mine, both the one that is framed and on the wall and the subsequent ones that are safely stored in their tubos. I also treasure the credenciales and the photos and the tee shirts...by the way they get cold water washed and drip-dried to try and make them last longer. (Still looking for a tee shirt of the Salvador, didn't find one when in Santiago this May. May just make up one and put it onto CafePress and buy it there.) I also love the road signs that I digitized as a birthday gift for DH. He's going to get another one, a two-year one like the Norte one as we took two years to complete the Plata.

Regarding the subject of this thread, it's funny to hear a guide complaining that he apparently owns the Camino and doesn't want it too crowded for his customers. None of us owns the Camino, it's one of the lessons we all need to learn. The mob of school children skipping and trying to jump over their poles and chattering on their "Spanish Heritage" walk or their "Catholic Heritage" walk as a school group that is the farthest they have ever walked in their young lives belong there as much as the old ladies and the studly hikers racking up another famous route.

BC to all. (edited because BC came out as BS for some unknown reason.)

 

[Texas Walker]

"In English, even the name of the saint has disappeared from the name of the pilgrimage road in common parlance. It is now the Camino de Santiago and no longer Way of Saint James."

Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate. It is indeed Saint James, and this Santiago is Santiago El Mayor, St. James the Elder, there is another apostle Saint James the Younger who lived his whole life in the Jerusalem area I think. That the Camino is being referred to by its Spanish language name is just one of those things people do. The actual name has not changed.

BC to all.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate. It is indeed Saint James, and this Santiago is Santiago El Mayor, St. James the Elder, there is another apostle Saint James the Younger who lived his whole life in the Jerusalem area I think. That the Camino is being referred to by its Spanish language name is just one of those things people do. The actual name has not changed.

BC to all.

At a guess, @Kathar1na was making the point that in using the Spanish language name as non-Spanish speakers, the walkers are unaware or are losing sight of the St. James piece. Certainly I see this with Anglo-Canadians familiar with the "Camino de Santiago" who cannot figure out the "Chemin St. Jacques".

 

[Texas Walker]

I'm not talking about a statue of a pilgrims.
Instead I am talking about the type of statues that guide
pilgrims to Santiago.

Do you mean the ancient waymarkers that are crucifixes? The modern decorative waymarkers that appear on some routes? The signs in some tiny villages? Clarity would help here.

 

[PeteAJ]

I treasure my Compostelas as well. I actually framed the distance certificates because I like they have the start/end points and kms. I feel like I walked the Frances with thoughtfulness and to the best of my ability so I'm not sure I need anymore documentation. ?

To recap some of what I've heard on solutions: A tourist tax, a 300km certificate, no certificates, accepting only religious or official stamps, promotion/maintenance of other routes, limit on receiving certificates only once every 5 years or once ever.

Beyond the tourist tax a rejiggering of the compostela has the potential to at least take pressure off the last 100km? A lottery system or physical policing seems unlikely and unpleasant. I know there's lotteries for things like the John Muir Trail but it's more remote and has clearer entry points for starters.

I appreciate folks saying everyone has the right to walk it in their way. As someone pointed out, some people who begin in Sarria could be Spaniards with their CVs in mind. I don't knock the luggage transport knowing there's elderly folks and people with physical limits who can use the assistance.

 

[trecile]

At a guess, @Kathar1na was making the point that in using the Spanish language name as non-Spanish speakers, the walkers are unaware or are losing site of the St. James piece. Certainly I see this with Anglo-Canadians familiar with the "Camino de Santiago" who cannot figure out the "Chemin St. Jacques".

And many think that it's the Camino Francis, or the Camino St Francis.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

The Compostela is a gracious paper that acknowledges your visit to the Cathedral in honor of Santiago El Mayor

Actually, sadly it's not even that. At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela. You certainly do not have to walk the camino in honor of St James.

You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements. Said stamps supposedly proving that you have walked/cycled etc a minimum of the last 100/200 km to Santiago on a recognized route. Or even show the volunteers a video or sufficient photos of said walk/ride. You'll get your Compostela.

Edited to add: concerns have been raised below about the "simple notebook". Please note this is not official policy nor a recommendation - whilst others have done this in the past you risk not getting a Compostela if you do not use a proper Credencial and follow the rules.

Conversely, you could have walked the last 100km into Santiago on a route of your own making to the Cathedral specifically to pray in the Cathedral - but you will not get a Compostela because you do not 'qualify'.

BC to all.

Sorry I have no idea what you're trying to say?
I'm familiar with the business usage (signifying business continuity), and it's modern usage in whatsapp for example (in text it normally means 'because').

Also email/letter writing 'blind copy', or naturally in date form 'before Christ' - but none of these make any sense in this context.

 

[Stephan the Painter]

Sorry I have no idea what you're trying to say?

Buen Camino?

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Buen Camino?

Oh my goodness, I can be dense sometimes!

Thanks!

 

[Kathor1]

Perhaps you should try dropping "Santiago" into Google Translate

Thank you for your advice.

I tried to say, obviously not very successfully, that the fact that the Camino is being referred to by its Spanish language name by contemporary Camino pilgrims speaking in English, is not just one of those things people do but reflects a cultural shift. Georgiana Goddard King called her book The Way of Saint James (1920) while John Brierley called his book A pilgrim's guide to the Camino de Santiago (2003).

I had to scroll back to see the context of the partially quoted comment as it was made more than three weeks ago. It is here in post #49. With context.

 

[Purple Backpack]

If the draw for the masses is the “brownie badge” Compostela, then change the way the Compostela is awarded. To receive a Compostela, stamps could still be required on an issued Credential. But they are only given at the churches. If you want to make it even more restrictive, stamps are only given before or after mass. That would eliminate the vast majority of those looking to prove they can walk 100k. Next, eliminate the 100k thing. I don’t know an appropriate number of kilometers to make getting the piece of paper worth it, but it’s not 100k. A person would still be free to walk but make that Compostela something special again.

Several years ago, I walked a good chunk of the Via Francigena. Arriving in the Vatican sacristy…not the tourist office outside the walls…, I was kindly questioned at depth as to the reason for my pilgrimage, where I walked and stayed, my favorite parts and most importantly, had I walked in sandals (I had changed clothes/shoes in a bathroom upon arriving in Rome before going to the Vatican). When I was handed that hand signed document, I felt it meant something, was well earned and it’s the only one I treasure.

I returned from the Camino Frances June 11, walking the traditional stages plus a detour to Samos in 34 days. The computer generated Compostela after getting a QR code meant little to me. But the spiritual journey of receiving nightly blessings during mass, listening to the Rabanal Gregorian chants, meeting the incredibly kind Leon nuns after hearing them sing at vespers, sitting in small churches with Camino friends as we said a prayer…those are the reasons I chose to finally walk the full Frances, something I swore I would never do. I won’t walk the Sarria parade again.

I love the quieter routes and those are the ones I’ll seek out in the future (will my favorite Via Podiensis also become a victim of its own success?). I’m taking a Camino break after the chaos of the Frances and my next walk will be England’s Coast to Coast in the fall, for the second time, perhaps adding on the Highland Way. I’ll miss the spiritual part of the Frances (and the Meseta, how I loved the Meseta!!) but am looking forward to enjoying England’s Peaks…and ending the day in the wonderful pubs!

 

[Purple Backpack]

Addendum: after posting, I went back and read some more comments. Again, this is assuming the large crowds are doing the last 100k for a Compostela, which may be a mistaken assumption on my part. Don’t make Santiago de Compostela the end point. Pick another place to receive a Compostela and the tomb of Saint James is a place of pilgrimage to visit but not the end point for the Compostela. Pick the coast or the middle of deserted Spain or someplace that needs/welcomes tourism. Make it undesirable for the hoards to want to walk an extra week to get to. The numbers would drop exponentially.

 

[Purple Backpack]

I actually just deleted that post because right now I don’t remember if they scanned the QR code to get the Compostela or if I received a number when checking in and then told the person at the desk what my name and number was.

If someone else remembers the exact process, I hope they will weigh in.

I just did it a couple of weeks ago. One signs up online and receives a QR code. It is shown to a gentleman at the door, who gives you a number to stand in line, kind of like being in a NYC deli. The numbers are shown on large TV screens with directions to a numbered person behind a counter, who looks at the credential and prints out your Compostela before exiting through a gift shop area. Not exactly the experience I had with my first Camino in 2012, and more than a little disappointing. The times, they are a changing.

 

[isawtman]

I'm not sure why you are finding this a problem. As others have pointed out, it is the same rhetorical logic that you have used yourself, so I wasn't expecting that you would find the proposition all that difficult to accept

No, it is not the same rhetorical logic that I use at all.

 

[David Tallan]

You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements.

Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.

I have not read the rules, but have seen this same thing mentioned on the forum several times in recent years. I always order mine from "American Pilgrims on the Camino" and it still qualifies.

 

[David Tallan]

I have not read the rules, but have seen this same thing mentioned on the forum several times in recent years. I always order mine from "American Pilgrims on the Camino" and it still qualifies.

I know that the credencial provided by the Canadian Company of pilgrims had to be changed a bit to keep it in accordance with the rules set out by the Cathedral and receive their approval.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Are you sure this is still the case? I seem to recall reading in a number of places that not just any credencial is accepetable now but it must be one approved by the Cathedral authorities, according to current rules. Now, of course, like the "two stamps a day for the last 100 km" rule, there may be a fair amount of leeway in the enforcement of the rule. But I wouldn't recommend relying on that leeway if the Compostela is important to you.

No, I'm not sure, but it certainly applied July last year when a friend of mine walked in with a notebook and obtained her Compostela. She simply explained that nothing was open to get a Credencial between her arrival and departure on the Primitivo. Incidentally she got two Compostelas with the same notebook, because she also walked the Inglés immediately afterwards.

That was however last year.
As you say if the Compostela is important to you then clearly getting the appropriate credencial is a good idea.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I just looked at my first one in 2015 from the office in SJPdP and it was in French and larger than all my other ones from APOC. That first one on the backside says revised in 2015. The next one and all others thereafter say revised in 2017. The covers and all the writing seems identical going forward.

 

[Flog]

You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements.

Are you sure this is still the case?

No, I'm not sure, but it certainly applied July last year when a friend of mine walked in with a notebook and obtained her Compostela.

Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.

I did not give that out as 'reliable advice', for context please read the entire post (#248). In that post I am simply pointing out how extremely easy the Compostela is to obtain.

Incidentally, if you're going to quote me please do not just quote part of it, I finished with:

That was however last year.
As you say if the Compostela is important to you then clearly getting the appropriate credencial is a good idea.

I simply made a point based on real life experience.

I reiterate: I am not suggesting or recommending that anybody does this if the Compostela is important to them.

Rather the opposite. The pilgrims office request so little from pilgrims, and the Compostela costs so little that it seems to me that the least you can do is to purchase the Credencial in return.

 

[David Tallan]

I simply made a point based on real life experience.

I think our response was conditioned by the many people who also say based on real life experience that two stamps a day are not needed after Sarria if one has walked from SJPP. Unfortunately, other people have had different real life experiences.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

I think our response was conditioned by the many people who also say based on real life experience that two stamps a day are not needed after Sarria if one has walked from SJPP. Unfortunately, other people have had different real life experiences.

Fair comment. But at no point was it presented as advice and it has been taken completely out of context.

 

[David Tallan]

CLFair comment. But at no point was it presented as advice and it has been taken completely out of context.

You may not have meant it as advice. But when I read:

You just have to present a piece of paper (preferably, but not necessarily a Credencial - a simple notebook works) with sufficient stamps in it to meet the requirements. Said stamps supposedly proving that you have walked/cycled etc a minimum of the last 100/200 km to Santiago on a recognized route. Or even show the volunteers a video or sufficient photos of said walk/ride. You'll get your Compostela.

My first thought was that someone might read that and think "Let's do that, take a notebook rather than a credencial. It will be so much more meaningful."

You said "You'll get your Compostela." not "You might get your Compostela; people have." I thought it was important to make people aware of the risks, the same way I do when anyone reports having got a Compostela without two stamps a day for the last 100 km.

It is not just us who may be reading this out of context, but people thinking about what they will do to get their Compostela.

 

[SabsP]

Please don't be giving this out as reliable advice. Just get a proper credencial which is readily available from any number of places along the way on any camino. If you want to use a personalised notebook in addition, go ahead. The Pilgrim's Office will happily stamp it for you.

I will look forward to your reports end of September when you will again be working at the Oficina de Peregrinos.
Always good to have up to date and correct information.

 

[Flog]

it has been taken completely out of context.

I'm sorry you feel that it was taken out of context, but I disagree.. the relevant wording, the bit that some folk will get stuck in their heads was quoted, as I prefer to present such things simply, clearly and to the point.

 

[RJM]

Credentials are inexpensive and available in so many places along the Camino (Frances specifically). Why go through the possible hassle at the pilgrim's office in Santiago that a homemade one might cause.

 

[Pafayac]

It depends: if the Compostela is a priority for you (I know a number of pilgrims who don't care): use an "official" credential.
If having your own homemade credential is important, you should know that perhaps you would not qualify for a Compostela (and perhaps neither for the sprint final at the olympics).

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

You may not have meant it as advice. But when I read:

My first thought was that someone might read that and think "Let's do that, take a notebook rather than a credencial. It will be so much more meaningful."

You said "You'll get your Compostela." not "You might get your Compostela; people have." I thought it was important to make people aware of the risks, the same way I do when anyone reports having got a Compostela without two stamps a day for the last 100 km.

It is not just us who may be reading this out of context, but people thinking about what they will do to get their Compostela.

I'm sorry you feel that it was taken out of context, but I disagree.. the relevant wording, the bit that some folk will get stuck in their heads was quoted, as I prefer to present such things simply, clearly and to the point.

The concern you both raise is valid: I cannot control how people interpret my words.

I have edited the post accordingly

 

[Flog]

It's all good, there's no harm done!

 

[isawtman]

The concern you both raise is valid: I cannot control how people interpret my words.

I have edited the post accordingly

Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Bristle Boy]

Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.

The Usual Suspects.

 

[Flog]

Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.

The Usual Suspects.

What is it with yous two with your rolley eyes and grains of salt? Peter, to his credit had the good grace to amend his post after some consideration, unlike many who post ill informed nonsense, or who just post for the sake of posting.

 

[dick bird]

Anyone reading the last five posts would have no idea what this thread is about. Just saying.

 

[JCarpenter]

Peter, you need to understand one thing about this forum. If you wrote that Water is Wet, there would be someone here to dispute that. So, just take it with a grain of salt.

Isn't water water, then what it lands on is wet? (Just trying to see if your comment holds water.)

 

[Flog]

Anyone reading the last five posts would have no idea what this thread is about. Just saying.

Whatever you say, Dick. But there's nothing to stop you or anyone else reading the whole thread in order to make sense of it.
Just saying.

 

[JabbaPapa]

At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela.

The Pilgrims Office is part of the Cathedral Parish premises, and so it is technically a part of the Cathedral.

 

[Bradypus]

Actually, sadly it's not even that. At no point do you have to go to the cathedral in order to collect a compostela. You certainly do not have to walk the camino in honor of St James.

It is true that the pilgrim office no longer ask someone directly about their motives or whether they have visited the tomb of the Apostle before issuing a Compostela. So you could certainly receive one without doing so. But that is precisely what the text of the Compostela declares and why would someone want to have their name attached to a lie on a piece of paper?

The Pilgrims Office is part of the Cathedral Parish premises, and so it is technically a part of the Cathedral.

That sounds like stretching definitions a very long way. I doubt that whoever wrote the Compostela text had a building in Rua das Carretas in mind.

 

[JabbaPapa]

That sounds like stretching definitions a very long way. I doubt that whoever wrote the Compostela text had a building in Rua das Carretas in mind.

Whoever wrote that text likely had no conception of how much misunderstanding of general ecclesial knowledge would emerge between the 18th and 21st Centuries.

ALL Church premises attached in part or by part to a Parish Church are a part of that Parish Church.

A Cathedral is a Parish Church.