The new Rule 3 - no more tourist vs. pilgrim debates

[peregrina2000]

We are starting another thread on this specific rule, because it did provoke some questions and concerns when it was first announced (as Rule 14, but it’s still pretty much the same now that it’s been moved to Rule 3). Ivar is going to delete all of the comments in the general rules discussion so that we will have a clean document that does nothing other than lay out the rules. We thought it would be helpful to have a discussion here that will hopefully clear the air and then serve as something we can refer people to when the issue arises.

First, here is the new rule:
3) No arguments about who is a tourist and who is a “real" pilgrim. The forum is intended for all who are interested in the Camino. Please do not challenge the sincerity, intentions, or authenticity of another person’s Camino.

Despite some concerns voiced by forum members, it is absolutely not our intention to stop discussions about pilgrimage, about what pilgrimage means to you, and about your experiences as a pilgrim. Our only target are those dismissive and disparaging comments that sugggest that we can label you as either a tourist or a pilgrim depending on whether you use pack transport, sleep in hotels, book through an agency, take a taxi, etc. In our view, those factors have nothing to do with the state of mind or intent of the person going to Santiago, so we would like to keep those judgments off the forum.

As an example, some members probably remember a recent thread linking to an article discussing the revival of pilgrimage. The OP requested that the thread be deleted, but you might be interested to know that it was the incendiary political commentary in the linked article, and not the discussion of pilgrimage, that had gotten our attention and would probably have led to the thread’s closing.

To close with a bit of nostalgia — The very first post on the forum, written by Ivar, welcomed us with these words:

There are mainly two groups of people that travel to Santiago, pilgrims and tourists. This board is meant for both types of visitors, the board is about Santiago de Compostela, no matter how you got here you will have something interesting to share.

We want to restore that equal opportunity welcome — no matter what your mindset, and no matter how you got here, you are welcome on the forum.

 

[Bradypus]

To close with a bit of nostalgia — The very first post on the forum, written by Ivar, welcomed us with these words:

There are mainly two groups of people that travel to Santiago, pilgrims and tourists.

In the context of the revised Rule 3 isn't it slightly ironic to point out that the first ever post on the forum made the very same distinction between "pilgrims" and "tourists" that we are still arguing about nearly twenty years later?

 

[C clearly]

the very same distinction between "pilgrims" and "tourists" that we are still arguing about nearly twenty years later?

Perhaps the distinction was clearer in those days, so there was little argument. Now it is not so clear, but what does it really matter?

 

[Pafayac]

I am not sure that I understand perfectly the rule:
- Is it forbidden to discuss about who (ie, a contributor, a member) is a tourist or a real pilgrim ?
- Or is it forbidden to debate about the Camino as a pilgrimage or as a tourism item ? Is it forbidden to discuss about the difference between a pilgrim behaviour and a tourist behaviour ?

 

[C clearly]

I am not sure that I understand perfectly the rule:

We don't have perfection in the concept. Here is my current interpretation...

Is it forbidden to discuss about who (ie, a contributor, a member) is a tourist or a real pilgrim ?

Generally, yes, you should not claim/assert that another member is one or the other.

- Or is it forbidden to debate about the Camino as a pilgrimage or as a tourism item

No, it is an acceptable topic as long as the debate remains respectful.

? Is it forbidden to discuss about the difference between a pilgrim behaviour and a tourist behaviour ?

Generally yes That debate is not resolvable, given the huge overlapping of the terms, and the emotional baggage they carry.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

On my first Camino after arriving in Santiago, my son and I were eating in a quaint restaurant where the individual tables were spaced nearly shoulder to shoulder. I introduced myself to a couple next to me who were quite old and we chatted for a few minutes. They had driven their car on the whole Camino Frances, stopping at most of the cities and villages along the way. They said it brought back memories of when they had walked the Camino before, but now they were no longer able to walk. Their little story really touched me. They were not tourists and we can not judge motives by appearances of a car or stepping out of a bus or taxi, nor should we.
I am glad there are some new guidelines implemented to reduce friction on this particular topic that crops up periodically.

 

[CWBuff]

I didn't know tables had shoulders

I think I alluded to this in one of earlier posts - I initially took exception to folks saying "Its MY Camino" because in my mind (and eyes) it resonated a bad behavior (which we all know there is unfortunately 'plenty of')
Not until I started walking and living it on a daily basis that I understood "My Camino" in a different sense of Way (no pun intended). As such I will never question a fellow traveler whether they are tourists or Pilgrims and whether they are walking or riding a bike or hopping mass transportation.
We are all on The Way for Our Reasons, whatever they may be. May we all be Richly Blessed with Buen Camino - while on it and after

 

[peregrina2000]

In the context of the revised Rule 3 isn't it slightly ironic to point out that the first ever post on the forum made the very same distinction between "pilgrims" and "tourists" that we are still arguing about nearly twenty years later?

Maybe I see this differently because I have spent a lot of time reading old posts and watching how the forum conversation evolved on this topic. No one denies that there are tourists who go to Santiago and that there are pilgrims who go to Santiago. Ivar welcomed both of those groups to the forum. What he did not do, and has never done, is to tell us who is who. That’s up to YOU! If you want to be a tourist and go to Santiago, so be it. If you think you’re a pilgrim, so be it. I have walked with people who are absolutely uninterested in Saint James, in spiritual renewal and emphatically do not consider themselves pilgrims. That’s their decision. The point is that all are welcome here and it is none of our business to tell you which category you fit into.

So I guess the point that I’m trying to make is that Santiago is full of both tourists and pilgrims, but the forum is not the place to tell people which box they fit in.

 

[David Tallan]

Is it forbidden to discuss about the difference between a pilgrim behaviour and a tourist behaviour ?

Generally yes That debate is not resolvable, given the huge overlapping of the terms, and the emotional baggage they carry.

I'm thinking about the old saw "The tourist demands. The pilgrim accepts with gratitude."

I'm wondering if there might a difference between talking about pilgrim virtues (gratitude, non-judgemental, open, etc.) vs. the kinds of choices about how one does one's pilgrimage (carry a backpack vs. transport, book through an agent vs. self-book or no booking at all, with more technology vs. with less technology, etc.).

It seems to me it's the latter that cause most of the problems and there might be some value in discussions that reference the former. But I recognize the distinction may be hard to articulate and it may not be worth making.

I leave it, like everything in the rules, to the moderators' judgment.

I'm also thinking about how news items like the recent one about certain albergues no longer accepting shipped suitcases will be handled. Am I right in assuming it is okay (and probably good) to share the news so long as one dies so in a non-judgmental way and people should comment (if they want to do so before the conversation is locked, which will likely happen quickly to avoid rules violations) in a non-judgmental manner? I presume it is good to share the news because it is important for valued members of the forum to know, as they make choices of how to do their caminos and which albergues to go to.

 

[trecile]

I'm also thinking about how news items like the recent one about certain albergues no longer accepting shipped suitcases will be handled. Am I right in assuming it is okay (and probably good) to share the news so long as one dies so in a non-judgmental way and people should comment (if they want to do so before the conversation is locked, which will likely happen quickly to avoid rules violations) in a non-judgmental manner? I presume it is good to share the news because it is important for valued members of the forum to know, as they make choices of how to do their caminos and which albergues to go to

Absolutely, but some "news" items end up being rumours, or the facts get confused, so we need to make sure that the information that is shared is accurate.

 

[CWBuff]

@David Tallan -
I self-booked, sometime week ahead sometime couple of days, but book i did; carried my backpack, but still had to push\transport stuff forward; resisted technology until Burgos but then embraced it as a helpful tool (for me - not speaking about anyone else). So... who am I? ( I'm JEAN VALJEAN! )

I agree with you that certain aspects absolutely need to be discussed. It is\was a good piece of info that albergues will NOT accept suitcases - folks who DO forward and\or plan to do so (for various reasons) can now be prepared that if that is still the idea - bring another backpack or satchel bag or something that will conform. How else would we know stuff like this if not for discussions?

 

[Tincatinker]

There is a wonderful law in the UK canon that criminalizes “going with intent”. Two town dwellers in a country village, in possession of torches and a screwdriver- going with intent to burgle. A lad on an urban street in possession of paints and brushes - going with intent to commit criminal damage. A forum member considering challenging the motivations of a poster requesting a list of the best Albergues/ bars/ restaurants/ of everything… Going with intent to breach rule 3?

 

[David Tallan]

I self-booked, sometime week ahead sometime couple of days, but book i did; carried my backpack, but still had to push\transport stuff forward; resisted technology until Burgos but then embraced it as a helpful tool (for me - not speaking about anyone else). So... who am I?

As far as I'm concerned everyone who says they are a pilgrim is a pilgrim. And I would extend the term further, because I also consider some pilgrims who don't yet recognize it in themselves, although I am unlikely to disagree with them out loud. So hopefully I am unlikely to run afoul of this particular rule.

Myself, I resisted hiking poles until Viana but then embraced them as helpful tools when left without a choice and have never regretted it.

 

[Sheesh]

Excellent Rule.

As Soren Kierkegaard said "Once you label me you negate me."

 

[peregrina2000]

Am I right in assuming it is okay (and probably good) to share the news so long as one dies so in a non-judgmental way and people should comment (if they want to do so before the conversation is locked, which will likely happen quickly to avoid rules violations) in a non-judgmental manner?

I‘d like to push back a little on one thing you said - why would we close a thread quickly when people are sharing the news about albergues that don’t take suitcases, if as you said, it’s done without wrapping the news up in a statement about pilgrims vs. tourists? Threads get closed when people start taking the thread off course or start violating the rules, but hopefully that won’t happen now!

I'm thinking about the old saw "The tourist demands. The pilgrim accepts with gratitude."

I'm wondering if there might a difference between talking about pilgrim virtues (gratitude, non-judgemental, open, etc.) vs. the kinds of choices about how one does one's pilgrimage (carry a backpack vs. transport, book through an agent vs. self-book or no booking at all, with more technology vs. with less technology, etc.).

For the most part, I think most of us have a good idea of what the rule is intending to do, There will undoubtedly be a learning curve, there will undoubtedly be close cases, and there will undoubtedly be decisions made that you disagree with or that even some of the mods disgree with. Context will be a huge part of it - pointed comments directed at an individual are different from making a general statement about “pilgrim values” or “pilgrim characteristics.” But we will learn as we go, I’m sure.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Maybe I see this differently because I have spent a lot of time reading old posts and watching how the forum conversation evolved on this topic. No one denies that there are tourists who go to Santiago and that there are pilgrims who go to Santiago. Ivar welcomed both of those groups to the forum. What he did not do, and has never done, is to tell us who is who. That’s up to YOU! If you want to be a tourist and go to Santiago, so be it. If you think you’re a pilgrim, so be it. I have walked with people who are absolutely uninterested in Saint James, in spiritual renewal and emphatically do not consider themselves pilgrims. That’s their decision. The point is that all are welcome here and it is none of our business to tell you which category you fit into.

So I guess the point that I’m trying to make is that Santiago is full of both tourists and pilgrims, but the forum is not the place to tell people which box they fit in.

….I have walked with people who are absolutely uninterested in Saint James, in spiritual renewal and emphatically do not consider themselves pilgrims. That’s their decision….

Gosh that was a great post and that is 100% me!! I know nothing about Saint James, gender, ethnicity, country of origin. I don’t consider or aspire to be a Pilgrim, and am not looking for anything other than a great walk and to meet great folks, which I always do, as I am very friendly and people like me. Not looking for learning or spiritual awakening. I don’t believe in the Camino providing, or Camino angels, or that tourist demands, and that the pilgrim accepts, , or whatever the cliche is. I actually believe we are the majority on the Camino, tho obviously not on this forum! All that said it’s great to meet folks who have the opposite view to me, as that is part of the rich tapestry of life.

I hope we are welcome here, and it seems we are!

 

[David Tallan]

why would we close a thread quickly when people are sharing the news about albergues that don’t take suitcases, if as you said, it’s done without wrapping the news up in a statement about pilgrims vs. tourists?

I think you have more faith in the community's ability to discuss this without veering into pilgrims vs. tourists discussion than I do.

Heck, even the official statement announcing the policy wrapped it in pilgrims vs. tourists rhetoric.

 

[peregrina2000]

I think you have more faith in the community's ability to discuss this without veering into pilgrims vs. tourists discussion than I do.

Heck, even the official statement announcing the policy wrapped it in pilgrims vs. tourists rhetoric.

I think this means that the mods will petition Ivar for a pay raise.

 

[alexwalker]

I welcome the new rule 3.

We all change with time.

There have been many inflammatory posts against not "real" pilgrims over the years in here. When I was a spring chicken at 55, in 2008, i could tend to lean towards these ideas.

Today, at the age of soon 70, with arthritis in both knees (due to many Caminos; God knows I know many ways in Spain), I know that the only way to do another Camino for me now, is to adjust to my circumstances: I will walk shorter days, I may use pack transfer some days bc my knees hurt so much, I may some days become a taxi- or busigrino bc of pain, I may use better accomodation than albergues now and then, although I actually love the albergue life and want to have it as often as possible.

So if you see me hopping off a bus and go to my place, let it be known that it is because it is the only way I now can continue to do the Way.

I still consider myself a pilgrim. I just do it as best I can.

 

[JabbaPapa]

A lot of the problems with this issue seem to have come from far too many people taking far too seriously the old Camino joke about "tourigrinos", despite it never having originally been intended with ill intent against any individuals nor types of individuals.

Those of us who made such jokes at the time would also harshly rebuke those who wanted to "seriously" turn them into some occasion of hurtful prejudice !!

A pilgrim is a Pilgrim -- no matter what adjective anyone might care to put in front of the noun.

 

[TravellingMan22]

I welcome the new rule 3.

We all change with time.

There have been many inflammatory posts against not "real" pilgrims over the years in here. When I was a spring chicken of 55, on 2008, i could tend to lean towards these ideas.

Today, at the age of soon 70, with arthritis in both knees (due to many Caminos; God knows I know many ways is Spain), I know that the only way to do another Camino for me now, is to adjust to my circumstanses: I will walk shorter days, I may use pack transfer bc my knees hurt so much, I may some days become a taxi- or busigrino bc of pain, I may use better accomodation than albergues now and then, although I actually love the albergue life and want to have it as often as possible.

So if you see me hopping of a bus and go to my place, let it be known that it is because it is the only way I now can continue to do the Way.

I still consider myself a pilgrim. I just do it as best I can.

The whole ‘real pilgrim’ debate reminds me of when Tony Blair, the serving British Prime Minister declared ‘ we are all middle class now’ missing the point that most working class people had no desire to be seen as middle class. Think the same can be applied to folks who have no desire to be seen as pilgrims!’

 

[C clearly]

I actually believe we are the majority on the Camino, tho obviously not on this forum!

I have no idea which group is the "we" you refer to, but I don't want to know. There is no "obvious" in this regard, about the members of this forum. That's what we want to stop assuming and arguing about!

 

[alexwalker]

I have no idea which group is the "we" you refer to, but I don't want to know. There is no "obvious" in this regard, about the members of this forum. That's what we want to stop assuming and arguing about!

I still consider myself a pilgrim regardless of my limitations. I will just do it the best I can. I am not part of a "group": I am myself, I do it the way I can, and follow the word "live and let live". I cannot judge anyone; I walk in good faith and believe others do the same.

 

[C clearly]

Think the same can be applied to folks who have no desire to be seen as pilgrims!’

I don't assume this. Again you are assuming and transferring about others.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I initially took exception to folks saying "Its MY Camino"

I disagree, but not because of taking exception nor dissing those who say so.

It's our Camino, not "mine".

 

[TravellingMan22]

I don't assume this. Again you are assuming and tranferring about others.

No probs! Agree to disagree!!

 

[C clearly]

No probs! Agree to disagree!!

Again, I am not sure what we are disagreeing on. I am trying to explain that under Rule 3, you should avoid making comments about the pilgrim-vs-tourist-vs-whatever status of others.

 

[Former member 104756]

Rule 3 seems pretty straightforward to me.

I read a brief comment on this forum a long time ago - I don’t recall from whom. But it stayed with me. It was something along the lines, ‘why concern yourself with the how and why of someone else’s camino?’

It made perfect sense to me. If we just concern ourselves with our own camino and not others - then surely the pilgrim / tourist topic is unnecessary and irrelevant.

 

[K_Lynn]

Maybe I understand things differently, but IMO we're both pilgrims and tourists. Most of us do not live in the countries/cities/towns we are walking through, and that makes us tourists. BUT we are on a pilgrimage to Santiago for whatever reasons we have chosen to walk Camino and that makes us pilgrims.

I do appreciate the end of the debate though. There are times when the need to judge people for how they are getting to Santiago seems overly harsh, and ultimately it is none of my business why people do what they do.

Buen Camino!

 

[stevepjq]

Be Kind - very simple. Be kind.

 

[dougfitz]

I don't have a problem with the new rule, but I am disappointed that we have reached this point.

It seems to me that, at least as English speakers, have made a rod for our own back by making the word tourist a pejorative when we didn't need to. There are well accepted definitions, such as those used by the world tourism bodies, that suggest all but some Spanish pilgrims would also be classed as tourists. It might have been preferable to identify what behaviours that we object to that causes us concern and makes us want to distinguish ourselves from people who display those behaviours? My view is that this would have been preferable to re-purposing an otherwise useful word which would describe most of us.

However, the damage has been done, and despite the fact that for most purposes we will be classed as tourists by anyone looking in at our community of pilgrims, we now have the situation of needing a rule. Pity, but it seems to be our reality.

My second reason for not having a problem with the rule is that I recognized some time ago that I am not psychic, and have no extraordinary powers to read the minds of my fellow pilgrims. I know that there are some here who seem to think they know what is in my mind, which amuses me most of the time. More, I don't think that the external behaviours of people who walk the camino are good guides to what motivates them to walk the camino.

That said, I do wonder about the forum rules still containing text such as Posts should be related to the topic of the Camino de Santiago, which might seem to preclude discussion about other pilgrimage routes. There has been such discussion for as long as I have been a member here. More, it has not been limited to Christian pilgrimage even though the Camino de Santiago and similar Christian pilgrimages are clearly the major focus. It seems a pity that the preamble text has not been modified to contemplate other routes inspired by visiting significant religious shrines or similar places.

My other concern is whether discussion would be permitted on the difference between a person walking the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela as defined by the Cathedral authorities, and someone who is walking on one of the recognized Camino routes but with no intention of visiting the tomb of the saint. I can always make up my own mind about whether to engage with those not walking to SDC, but there are some discussions where pointing out that distinction might be relevant. Will that be permitted?

 

[Bradypus]

That said, I do wonder about the forum rules still containing text such as Posts should be related to the topic of the Camino de Santiago, which might seem to preclude discussion about other pilgrimage routes.

That does seem a little incongruous given that sub-forums exist within the Forum specifically for posts related to other pilgrimage routes in Europe and beyond.

 

[dougfitz]

Maybe I understand things differently, but IMO we're both pilgrims and tourists. Most of us do not live in the countries/cities/towns we are walking through, and that makes us tourists. BUT we are on a pilgrimage to Santiago for whatever reasons we have chosen to walk Camino and that makes us pilgrims.

I think that this is the way that most people looking in on our community would think, and it aligns with the way that organisations like the UN's WTO and national tourism bodies define tourism. There seems to me a hierarchy here:

• we will all be travellers when we undertake the camino;
• those of us from outside Spain will be tourists, and some places inside Spain might consider Spanish visitors are tourists as well;
• we are then pilgrims; and
• we might be sightseers from time to time, hopefully not exhibiting the worst behaviours associated with that!

edit: emphasis added

 

[Bradypus]

There seems to me a hierarchy here:

Somehow I was reminded of a line from "Yes Minister" - a wonderfully sharp British sitcom from many years back. Bernard - a civil servant - commenting on how people perceive and describe themselves in relation to others. "It’s one of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I have an independent mind. You are eccentric. He is round the twist."

 

[C clearly]

That said, I do wonder about the forum rules still containing text such as Posts should be related to the topic of the Camino de Santiago, which might seem to preclude discussion about other pilgrimage routes.

Actually, that preface wording is new. Broadly speaking, that is the focus of the forum, and moderators may delete some threads/posts that are off topic. Clearly some other topics are accepted as secondary or tangential discussions, or topics that draw upon similar interests. I'm not sure if a full expansion into other pilgrimage routes is in Ivar's plans.

Again, the rules are not intended to be highly prescriptive. We are simply trying to communicate some guidelines, not to be unreasonable or tie ourselves in semantic knots.

We cannot write a comprehensive manual for review and acceptance by new and old members!

 

[Tassie Kaz]

I confess I haven't read all the responses but as myself, @Bradypus & others who have undertaken (note I didn't say 'walked'..) the Way of 88 Temples in Japan will ascertain, for that path, all methods of completing some or the entirety of the pilgrimage are considered equal in merit.

The basis is not in the level of physical effort (which IMHO is at the core of the argument) but in fulfilling the spiritual aspects which is the very reason the pilgrimage is there in the first place.

Perhaps this change in mindset is what is needed here too. I know personally I no longer differentiate between pilgrimage 'styles'...each to their own for whatever reason. Sempre avanti!

 

[dougfitz]

I'm not sure if a full expansion into other pilgrimage routes is in Ivar's plans.

I wonder what is intended here. There are already active sub-forums on other pilgrimage routes in Europe and elsewhere. Presumably these started because there was an interest in these routes because someone either wanted to report on them or enquire about them. One way or another, it seems that we have been able to accommodate discussion about pilgrimage to sacred destinations similar to Santiago de Compostela, and should continue to do so.

 

[C clearly]

I wonder what is intended here. There are already active sub-forums on other pilgrimage routes in Europe and elsewhere. Presumably these started because there was an interest in these routes because someone either wanted to report on them or enquire about them. One way or another, it seems that we have been able to accommodate discussion about pilgrimage to sacred destinations similar to Santiago de Compostela, and should continue to do so.

Yes.

I have struck out the words that have created some uncertainty in your mind. There was no obscure messaging in my wording.

I think of myself as someone who is reasonably skilled with words and logic. However, this is getting too arduous, even for me.

 

[Bradypus]

Ivar used to host a separate website for the Via Francigena but it never gained a very large membership. It was eventually merged with this site though some posts were lost in the transfer. As someone who has walked several Caminos in Spain and also historic pilgrim routes in Sweden, Norway, the UK, France, Switzerland, Italy, and Japan I welcome the diversity of experience of pilgrimage in a broad sense to be found here on the forum.

 

[dougfitz]

Yes.

I have struck out the words that have created some uncertainty in your mind. There was no obscure messaging in my wording.

I think of myself as someone who is reasonably skilled with words and logic. However, this is getting too arduous, even for me.

I don't think that's what I wanted to see. Rather, I would have been happy to see a better understanding emerge of how the rules might operate as members ask about those things that puzzle them. It doesn't require amending past posts for that to happen.

I am aware that these things might take time, and that Ivar and the moderators have attempted to better regulate the forum by addressing what are really some very few changes. I am, as I suspect others are, aware that in this case it is on a topic that goes to the very heart of our thinking - are we, or are we not, a pilgrim? Many people on the forum have helped me better understand this question over the years. It would be a shame were others not able to benefit in a similar way. Clearly we will need to find new ways to have that discussion in the future.

 

[Bradypus]

I am, as I suspect others are, that in this case it is on a topic that goes to the very heart of our thinking - are we, or are we not, a pilgrim?

I have become far less clear on that question with regard to myself as years have gone by. Had you asked me on my arrival in Santiago in 1990 I would probably have answered with a resounding unequivocal "Yes!". Nowadays I am far from sure. Whose definition are you using? As the years go by I have more questions than answers!

 

[Pafayac]

It made perfect sense. If we just concern ourselves with our own camino and not others - then surely the pilgrim / tourist topic is unnecessary and irrelevant.

I understand your point of view.
However the Camino seems to become overcrowded (at least at some times in the year) and we know that it can lead to problems, namely in Galicia.
Therefore, if I can understand that "A chacun son Chemin", and that there is not a "good" way to reach Santiago, but as many as there are pilgrims, I do not think we can ignore that the risk of overcrowding exists for the St James Way.
In that sense, will it be possible again or not to debate about agencies which fully plan Camino, with stages, accommodations, about buses which convey people from stage to stage, about hiking alternatives to the Camino ?

 

[Kirkie]

Rule 3 seems pretty straightforward to me.

I read a brief comment on this forum a long time ago - I don’t recall from whom. But it stayed with me. It was something along the lines, ‘why concern yourself with the how and why of someone else’s camino?’

It made perfect sense to me. If we just concern ourselves with our own camino and not others - then surely the pilgrim / tourist topic is unnecessary and irrelevant.

Thanks for your sensible words. A forum friend recently commented, and rightly, s/he/they is/are having an extended break from commenting on the forum. Would that I had that discipline!
The forum. Its rules. Sit back, don't get tied up in the detail.
What is it?
Whatever else, it is a pocket in a wide kaleidoscope of angles and points of interest and questions that has and will continue to serve those persons, of whatever classification, who hold 'the Camino to Santiago' in high esteem.
I do take off my hat to all those who are eagle eyed and pay attention to those who are looking for advice and recommendations.
I scroll through posts and try to remember: will this add a cubit to my span of life? If not, whatever you say, say nothing!
And I say: what did Sinead O'Connor gift us with? Whether I agree with her stance is not the point - may she now know all she was searching for on her own camino.
For me, and in my opinion, this is pertinent: be true to your own position, using all the points of the compass, including all the various apps and lists of ups and downs and best watering holes and restaurants and Roman remains. And keep a space for a wee laugh.

 

[David Tallan]

Again, the rules are not intended to be highly prescriptive. We are simply trying to communicate some guidelines, not to be unreasonable or tie ourselves in semantic knots.

I think this is key. The point system may be an algorithm, administered by a computer; the rules are not. They don't specifically, exhaustively, and unambiguously state what is permitted and what is not. Ultimately, what is permitted and what is not is whatever Ivar and the moderators say is permitted or not, and they will take innumerable factors, including the context, the participants and other things outside the post into consideration. If they want to take the weather into consideration, they can. They are humans making judgment calls on human situations with the almost infinite variation that happens when humans and their idiosyncrasies come into play. The rules are just a blurry window into what guides their thinking.

Personally, when people are involved, I will take humans with good judgment making decisions over rules and algorithms every day of the week.

 

[David Tallan]

I understand your point of view.
However the Camino seems to become overcrowded (at least at some times in the year) and we know that it can lead to problems, namely in Galicia.
Therefore, if I can understand that "A chacun son Chemin", and that there is not a "good" way to reach Santiago, but as many as there are pilgrims, I do not think we can ignore that the risk of overcrowding exists for the St James Way.
In that sense, will it be possible again or not to debate about agencies which fully plan Camino, with stages, accommodations, about buses which convey people from stage to stage, about hiking alternatives to the Camino ?

Personally, I'd rather not get into those discussions. I think, over time, "overcrowding" has a way of working itself out. The year of my first Camino, about 5000 Compostelas were given out. The year of my second Camino, over 300,000 Compostelas were handed out. You could say that, by the time of my second Camino, it was absurdly overcrowded. There were at least 60 times as many pilgrims. I couldn't have imagined the Camino in 1989 being able to handle 60 times as many pilgrims. Yet I didn't find it so. I appreciated my fellow pilgrims. I also often found it easier to find a bed on my second Camino than on my first.

I worry that the debate you are looking for is, at heart, a judgment of other pilgrims and how they conduct their pilgrimages, exactly what this rule is meant to prevent.

 

[naplesdon]

I only have my own Camino experiences beginning in 2011 to evaluate this debate but after serving as a hospitalero in Canfranc this month, July 2023, I must admit the purpose many have chosen to walk has changed considerably in those past 13 years. I saw it daily on the Camino and have read the post from more and more "people" who don't consider any of the aspects of being a "pilgrim" anymore than ticking some adventurous hike off of their bucket list with just the right stages, pre-booked accommodations and gear in their backpack.

 

[ivar]

Thank you all for participating here. For the first 6-7 years of the forum I had no rules. I refused. My idea was that we are all adults and should be able to behave. But then, when I started to have to deleted posts, I found that I need to have some basis for why I was deleting things... then the rules come in. It sends an expectation of behaviour, and also gives us (the mods and I) backing for when we need to moderate.

This thread has been useful I feel to try to explain all this, and to explain how we think. Normally we only allow these kinds of discussions in private, but once in a while it is good to have a tread like this. Just to make sure that we all understand things the same way to avoid misunderstanding.

Thank you again to the mods for helping me with all this. They do indeed need a pay raise

 

[dick bird]

I understand your point of view.
However the Camino seems to become overcrowded (at least at some times in the year) and we know that it can lead to problems, namely in Galicia.
Therefore, if I can understand that "A chacun son Chemin", and that there is not a "good" way to reach Santiago, but as many as there are pilgrims, I do not think we can ignore that the risk of overcrowding exists for the St James Way.
In that sense, will it be possible again or not to debate about agencies which fully plan Camino, with stages, accommodations, about buses which convey people from stage to stage, about hiking alternatives to the Camino ?

Can’t see a problem there.

 

[dick bird]

On the issue of overcrowding, a number of reliable sources claim that up to 500000 pilgrims a year travelled to Santiago. In the twelfth century.

 

[Pafayac]

On the issue of overcrowding, a number of reliable sources claim that up to 500000 pilgrims a year travelled to Santiago. In the twelfth century.

Can you please tell me what sources ? I am intersted in the Camino history and this number seems incredible.

 

[VNwalking]

In the twelfth century.

Yeah, but did they have bucket lists?

Kidding.
More seriously, @ivar and the mods, thank you for the openness of this thread - it's good to better understand the new rule and the nuances involved in making and applying it.
Clearly there is leeway for discussion of pilgrimage per se: the new rule is quite clear in its intent, about avoiding direct personal finger-pointing.

 

[dick bird]

I don't have a problem with the new rule, but I am disappointed that we have reached this point.

It seems to me that, at least as English speakers, have made a rod for our own back by making the word tourist a pejorative when we didn't need to. There are well accepted definitions, such as those used by the world tourism bodies, that suggest all but some Spanish pilgrims would also be classed as tourists. It might have been preferable to identify what behaviours that we object to that causes us concern and makes us want to distinguish ourselves from people who display those behaviours? My view is that this would have been preferable to re-purposing an otherwise useful word which would describe most of us.

However, the damage has been done, and despite the fact that for most purposes we will be classed as tourists by anyone looking in at our community of pilgrims, we now have the situation of needing a rule. Pity, but it seems to be our reality.

My second reason for not having a problem with the rule is that I recognized some time ago that I am not psychic, and have no extraordinary powers to read the minds of my fellow pilgrims. I know that there are some here who seem to think they know what is in my mind, which amuses me most of the time. More, I don't think that the external behaviours of people who walk the camino are good guides to what motivates them to walk the camino.

That said, I do wonder about the forum rules still containing text such as Posts should be related to the topic of the Camino de Santiago, which might seem to preclude discussion about other pilgrimage routes. There has been such discussion for as long as I have been a member here. More, it has not been limited to Christian pilgrimage even though the Camino de Santiago and similar Christian pilgrimages are clearly the major focus. It seems a pity that the preamble text has not been modified to contemplate other routes inspired by visiting significant religious shrines or similar places.

My other concern is whether discussion would be permitted on the difference between a person walking the Pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela as defined by the Cathedral authorities, and someone who is walking on one of the recognized Camino routes but with no intention of visiting the tomb of the saint. I can always make up my own mind about whether to engage with those not walking to SDC, but there are some discussions where pointing out that distinction might be relevant. Will that be permitted?

I like to keep things simple. For me, the rules mean that you can talk about what a pilgrim is or isn’t; you can talk about what a tourist is or isn’t; what you can’t do is tell someone they can’t be a pilgrim because you think they are a tourist.

 

[dick bird]

Can you please tell me what sources ? I am intersted in the Camino history and this number seems incredible.

When I get home I’ll post some links.

 

[naplesdon]

I like to keep things simple. For me, the rules mean that you can talk about what a pilgrim is or isn’t; you can talk about what a tourist is or isn’t; what you can’t do is tell someone they can’t be a pilgrim because you think they are a tourist.

I like the simplicity of this thought. I added my comment above just to see if it would be rejected or not.

 

[peregrina2000]

I do not think we can ignore that the risk of overcrowding exists for the St James Way.

I think this is a good example of the kind of thing that we can continue to talk about while removing the labels. Your status as a “pilgrim” or a “tourist” has nothing to do with your impact on crowds on the camino. But yes, crowds are a huge issue, and I don’t see anything wrong with talking about it as the phenomenon it is - parts of the Camino are very overcrowded at certain times of the year, some would say reaching their breaking point, and that is because of the huge numbers of PEOPLE on the camino.

One of my favorite billboards ever was the one put up by the Atlanta Bike Coalition somewhere in the mass of overlapping interstate highways called Spaghetti Junction: You are not STUCK in traffic. You ARE traffic. Everyone who walks, no matter the label we put on that person, is contributing to the problem.

 

[VNwalking]

You ARE traffic. Everyone who walks, no matter the label we put on that person, is contributing to the problem.

Nailed it, Laurie
Thank you.

 

[peregrina2000]

must admit the purpose many have chosen to walk has changed considerably in those 13 years.

This topic will skate close to the rule, obviously, but my opinion is that it is still very much a topic that is open to discussion. But we can do it without pointing fingers at people, without labelling people, and without telling people that they are somehow less worthy of walking the camino if their purpose doesn’t match mine.

I think that the old timers help those coming to the camino for the first time to see the many benefits that walking in the “old way” can bring in terms of self-reliance, self-awareness, mental clarity, setting priorities for life, etc etc. That all falls into the categories of describing our own experiences and how/why we walk. Where things get unhelpful is where those descriptions are rolled up in a pronouncement that unless you do it my way you are not authentic.

What the rule would delete (and actually this is a paraphrase of one of the posts from just a few weeks ago that triggered the rule) was the following exchange:

Question: Can someone give me information about pack transport on the Camino?
Response: Do you want to go as a pilgrim or as a tourist?

 

[alexwalker]

What the rule would delete (and actually this is a paraphrase of one of the posts from just a few weeks ago that triggered the rule) was the following exchange:

Question: Can someone give me information about pack transport on the Camino?
Response: Do you want to go as a pilgrim or as a tourist?

Indeed.

 

[LTfit]

Rule 3 makes perfect sense to me. I generally skip threads or posts when a valid question, especially by a newbie, is sidetracked and deviates towards the whole "true" pilgrim discussion. If you can't contribute constructively, move on.

Yes, the Camino has changed over the years, deal with it. There are enough Camino routes out there for everyone.

It's just not my business how someone else decides to walk their Camino. We may walk on Holy ground but that doesn't make us Holy

 

[shefollowsshells]

We are starting another thread on this specific rule, because it did provoke some questions and concerns when it was first announced (as Rule 14, but it’s still pretty much the same now that it’s been moved to Rule 3). Ivar is going to delete all of the comments in the general rules discussion so that we will have a clean document that does nothing other than lay out the rules. We thought it would be helpful to have a discussion here that will hopefully clear the air and then serve as something we can refer people to when the issue arises.

First, here is the new rule:
3) No arguments about who is a tourist and who is a “real" pilgrim. The forum is intended for all who are interested in the Camino. Please do not challenge the sincerity, intentions, or authenticity of another person’s Camino.

Despite some concerns voiced by forum members, it is absolutely not our intention to stop discussions about pilgrimage, about what pilgrimage means to you, and about your experiences as a pilgrim. Our only target are those dismissive and disparaging comments that sugggest that we can label you as either a tourist or a pilgrim depending on whether you use pack transport, sleep in hotels, book through an agency, take a taxi, etc. In our view, those factors have nothing to do with the state of mind or intent of the person going to Santiago, so we would like to keep those judgments off the forum.

As an example, some members probably remember a recent thread linking to an article discussing the revival of pilgrimage. The OP requested that the thread be deleted, but you might be interested to know that it was the incendiary political commentary in the linked article, and not the discussion of pilgrimage, that had gotten our attention and would probably have led to the thread’s closing.

To close with a bit of nostalgia — The very first post on the forum, written by Ivar, welcomed us with these words:

There are mainly two groups of people that travel to Santiago, pilgrims and tourists. This board is meant for both types of visitors, the board is about Santiago de Compostela, no matter how you got here you will have something interesting to share.

We want to restore that equal opportunity welcome — no matter what your mindset, and no matter how you got here, you are welcome on the forum.

I’m happy to see this stance, and glad you are addressing the insecurities of others that feel the need to shame others. Whether how they travel or if they need rescued. So revealing of people!
And I love Ivar’s post!
Great job!

 

[RobboSC]

In our view, those factors have nothing to do with the state of mind or intent of the person going to Santiago, so we would like to keep those judgments off the forum.

I know I'm fairly new to posting on the forum but I have been following it for over a decade now. I walked my first Camino in 2012 and definitely found myself conflicted and judging at times as I'm sure many others have. But this pretty much said it all.

I learned a lesson on this while sitting at a bus stop in Portmarin that June. I had just crossed the bridge, walked up that steep flight of stairs, then a little farther up to a bus stop. I was completely exhausted. I sat down to rest and eat when a tour bus pulled up. A few dozen people quickly got off the bus carrying small bags with shells attached to them and started heading up into town, but one woman came over and sat down right next to me on the bench.

She started speaking to me in Spanish, which I knew very little of at the time. But she had clearly noticed my tattered shorts and my measly feast. For when I apologized to her for not understanding she just smiled, reached into her bag, pulled out two wrapped bocadillos and two apples and handed them to me. I tried to refuse them but she wouldn't let me.

I eventually took the food and thanked her profusely, and told her I would share it with my friends - which she probably didn't understand, but which I eventually I did as my friends arrived just as she was leaving to head up into the town.

She left with a smile while we ate, and I was left with a new outlook. It shouldn't have taken a selfless act of kindness like that for me to stop judging Camino goers based on appearance alone, but it definitely did the trick.

Only the person on the Camino knows their reason for being there and that is their business, no one else's. But everyone deserves to be treated with the same selfless kindness that woman had shown me. So not only should we keep judgements off the forum, we should keep it off the Camino as well.

Buen Camino to all!

 

[sggarlick]

As a newcomer to this site and the Camino, hope you don’t mind me adding some comments.

Having read a few of the many topics on this amazing site, there have been a few that have made me wonder why someone would say such a thing, as it’s rude or belittling. However, they have been in the minority, so it feels like you are creating rules for the few (nothing new there, I guess!). What would be a shame is if you stopped having the kind of adult discussion in this thread, as it really helped me consider my motivations for walking the Camino de Santiago:

I’m still not sure what they are, or if I ever will, as I’m not religious (anymore), but I am searching for some life meaning (don’t think I’ll ever find an answer though). My initial motivation was to take on a physical adventure to experience new places and cultures. Perhaps I was ticking off a bucket list item. Before reading these forums I hadn’t considered labelling myself as anything other than someone going on an adventure, walking 500 miles from SJPdP to Santiago, experiencing new places and meeting new people. That was it. Having read this thread (and others) it has made me consider this more deeply.

So what is my “label“, if I need one? I decided to do this as an Adventurer. Certainly a Tourist (coming from the UK for this specific trip). By the end of September I may have become a Pilgrim (look forward to finding out what that is). What I do feel is that I can be all of these things.

Modern tech and lightweight clothing will be used (no sandals or monks habit for me!), and I plan to carry it all, because I’m able to do so and relish the challenge. Some accommodation has been reserved to start with (as recommended) and then I’ll see how it goes. When starting out early in the day I might just find somewhere to sleep; when starting later (to have a quieter walk) I might prebook. Will just be going with the flow because it suits MY frame of mind. I have no judgment of anyone else and will actually be interested in hearing about the different ways there are, as I may need to adapt in the future. I don’t feel my walk will be less or more than anyone else’s, it will just be mine.

If we accept that everything evolves, such as from just knowing the way, to using a map & compass, to following shell signs, to following a gps route, then each can be valid, as it’s what happens to the person that’s really important. I’ve wasted too much of my life looking for validation from others, so try not to take any (much) notice.

As someone else has already said, a label just constrains me to one thing, whereas I can be so much more. By discussing our differences, we really start to understand each other better, so I truly welcome public threads like this where that can take place. Please don’t lose them because of the minority.

 

[peregrina2000]

Ok, folks, read post 61 and then post 62. Two perfect examples of why we shouldn’t use labels and how our conversations become much richer when we don’t.

One from a “pilgrim” who was angry at “tourists” and one from a “tourist” (well, he uses the term Adventurer) who is wondering whether he will become a ”pilgrim.”

We can have these discussions, we should have these discussions, all we want to lose are the labels and judgments of superiority. One of the beauties of having such a wide ranging forum membership is that there are people with all sorts of reasons for walking, all sorts of lessons they’ve learned, and we should be able to explain and discuss those reasons just the way these two forum members have.

 

[joecollins]

I am not sure why it is so important to affix a label to anyone. We should stay in our own experience and leave others to theirs.

I day-hike the Appalachian Trail and occasionally I will encounter people hiking all the way though. I have never read or experienced anything that suggests that they are labelling or evaluating me because l experience the trail differently.

In The Art of the Pilgrimage Phil Cousineau he provides a quote from Joseph Campbell:

"The ultimate aim of the quest, if one is to return, must be neither release nor ecstasy for oneself, but the wisdom and power to serve others."

We cannot serve others if we insist on putting them in one column or another and judging or evaluating them in terms of that column.

People on the Camino are people on the Camino.

 

[Susie S]

We are starting another thread on this specific rule, because it did provoke some questions and concerns when it was first announced (as Rule 14, but it’s still pretty much the same now that it’s been moved to Rule 3). Ivar is going to delete all of the comments in the general rules discussion so that we will have a clean document that does nothing other than lay out the rules. We thought it would be helpful to have a discussion here that will hopefully clear the air and then serve as something we can refer people to when the issue arises.

First, here is the new rule:
3) No arguments about who is a tourist and who is a “real" pilgrim. The forum is intended for all who are interested in the Camino. Please do not challenge the sincerity, intentions, or authenticity of another person’s Camino.

Despite some concerns voiced by forum members, it is absolutely not our intention to stop discussions about pilgrimage, about what pilgrimage means to you, and about your experiences as a pilgrim. Our only target are those dismissive and disparaging comments that sugggest that we can label you as either a tourist or a pilgrim depending on whether you use pack transport, sleep in hotels, book through an agency, take a taxi, etc. In our view, those factors have nothing to do with the state of mind or intent of the person going to Santiago, so we would like to keep those judgments off the forum.

As an example, some members probably remember a recent thread linking to an article discussing the revival of pilgrimage. The OP requested that the thread be deleted, but you might be interested to know that it was the incendiary political commentary in the linked article, and not the discussion of pilgrimage, that had gotten our attention and would probably have led to the thread’s closing.

To close with a bit of nostalgia — The very first post on the forum, written by Ivar, welcomed us with these words:

There are mainly two groups of people that travel to Santiago, pilgrims and tourists. This board is meant for both types of visitors, the board is about Santiago de Compostela, no matter how you got here you will have something interesting to share.

We want to restore that equal opportunity welcome — no matter what your mindset, and no matter how you got here, you are welcome on the forum.

Bravo. ‘The state of mind or intent of the person going to Santiago’ is all that matters.

 

[asl]

A note - for me, traveling to another place with the intent of visiting and taking in sites, as one does on a pilgrimage, motives of spirituality aside, it does not change that I am also a tourist, and a privilege to ascribe both to myself.

 

[henrythedog]

Disappointing to see a reference to ‘shaming’ above. Adult life involves making judgements and if the comments are factual perhaps a moment of reflection is called for. Discrimination in the basis of artificial elitism is however unnecessary, and so I see the point in the rule.

I’ve no particular religious belief and - whilst I do feel there is something special walking a route which many have used before, and I’m as impressed by a good cathedral as most - I’m a Camino-fixated tourist.

For the sake of good order I’ll put up with being regarded as a pilgrim.

 

[Debora]

In the context of the revised Rule 3 isn't it slightly ironic to point out that the first ever post on the forum made the very same distinction between "pilgrims" and "tourists" that we are still arguing about nearly twenty years later?

One is not more significant, important or superior than the other - there should be no arguing.

 

[Pathfinder075]

….I have walked with people who are absolutely uninterested in Saint James, in spiritual renewal and emphatically do not consider themselves pilgrims. That’s their decision….

The thing I find interesting is when these people finish their camino, then go and get a religious document (Compostella), issued by a religious establishment (the church), while not being religious. Paradoxical?

-----

I am ok with rule 3 as it is. I just won't pass judgement. Ivar's board, Ivar's rules. Just the same as any bulletin board on the net. They have rules, you follow them, end of story.

But...

If the local Galician council or any other government department or the church, in Spain, officially classifies what a pilgrim is and what isn't, will that be applied to rule 3? So for instance if they said that a pilgrim is X and a tourist is Y and that is our (possibly legal) definition. I don't think they ever would, but for sake of clarification, I will ask the question.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Wit

The thing I find interesting is when these people finish their camino, then go and get a religious document (Compostella), issued by a religious establishment (the church), while not being religious. Paradoxical?

-----

I am ok with rule 3 as it is. I just won't pass judgement. Ivar's board, Ivar's rules. Just the same as any bulletin board on the net. They have rules, you follow them, end of story.

But...

If the local Galician council or any other government department or the church, in Spain, officially classifies what a pilgrim is and what isn't, will that be applied to rule 3? So for instance if they said that a pilgrim is X and a tourist is Y and that is our (possibly legal) definition. I don't think they ever would, but for sake of clarification, I will ask the question.

With regard to para 1 think some people get a Compostella without caring or realising it is a religious document - it’s just a certificate of the walk being completed.

 

[mike105]

As usual I find it perplexing that this would be an issue. I remember watching a Spanish family take turns pushing a severely disabled family member on a bike contraption. The joy displayed by the disabled person and the family including the family member was one of the most inspirational things I've ever seen. The last thing I would have ever wondered was whether they were tourists or pilgrims.
People that like to categorize others are saying more about themselves than others. Maybe it makes the world easier for them to navigate.

 

[Pathfinder075]

What the rule would delete (and actually this is a paraphrase of one of the posts from just a few weeks ago that triggered the rule) was the following exchange:

Question: Can someone give me information about pack transport on the Camino?
Response: Do you want to go as a pilgrim or as a tourist?

If it was altered to.

Question: Can someone give me information about pack transport on the Camino?
Response: Are you using a pack or suitcase? or What sort of bag are you sending?

Would that be sufficient? Because that is the real question. Although the implication still remains, we know some albergues have issues with suitcases.

 

[peregrina2000]

The thing I find interesting is when these people finish their camino, then go and get a religious document (Compostella), issued by a religious establishment (the church), while not being religious. Paradoxical?

The Cathedral itself has encouraged this behavior. The wording I see on the website is that in order to qualify for the compostela, you must: “Make the pilgrimage for religious or spiritual reasons, or at least an attitude of search.”

Abandoning the old categories (compostela for spiritual or religious, certificate of welcome for touristic or other) indicates that the cathedral has given up on trying to parse the intent of those coming for the compostela, and those who are coming for the compostela are coming because they want it, so it seems like a win-win.

It is kind of strange to me that the rules clearly exclude those who have not walked 100 km, even though there are many people who go to Santiago on a religious pilgrimage and who do not walk. Excluding those people from eligibility for the compostela tells me that the powers that be are more interested in maintaining some sort of “prize value” for those who make a certain physical effort than they are in recognizing the sincere religious intent of many people who are true believers and have come to venerate St. James.

I see this as just another indication of how pointless it is to try to classify “pilgrims“!

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I only have my own Camino experiences beginning in 2011 to evaluate this debate but after serving as a hospitalero in Canfranc this month, July 2023, I must admit the purpose many have chosen to walk has changed considerably in those past 13 years. I saw it daily on the Camino and have read the post from more and more "people" who don't consider any of the aspects of being a "pilgrim" anymore than ticking some adventurous hike off of their bucket list with just the right stages, pre-booked accommodations and gear in their backpack.

Why “people” in quotes?

What is wrong with simply wanted to go on a hike on a trail where you know you will see beautiful sites, be immersed in a unique culture, meet people from all over the world, and know there is a bed and a meal at the end of each day? Is that not a good enough “purpose?”

 

[Pathfinder075]

I think the 100km minimum is to stop it being devalued to the point where it becomes irrelevant. 100km shows some level of commitment and intent and they double down with the requirement to get two stamps a day. That was probably put in place as it became popular, but it doesn't stop the coach pilgrims that bus from town to town getting stamps. But to walk 100km isn't hard for the vast majority of people, maybe 3-4 days walking.

I don't know what the solution is, well I do. Shut down the pilgrim office. That would cut the problem instantly. If you wanted a compostella, you apply to an office in the Vatican via a website and post/scan them your credencial and they could email you an image you could print out.

 

[Bristle Boy]

I prefer to view all participants of a camino to Santiago as "Caminantes".
Purpose, intent and motive are individual and of private concern.
I applaud the efforts made to modify the discussion which, after twenty years, is as separationist and entrenched in views not conducive to the modern world.
I have never felt necessary to engage in this type of discussion which is prone to mild discrimination. I welcome the change.

 

[C clearly]

Why “people” in quotes?

What is wrong with simply wanted to go on a hike on a trail where you know you will see beautiful sites, be immersed in a unique culture, meet people from all over the world, and know there is a bed and a meal at the end of each day? Is that not a good enough “purpose?”

"People" was probably in quotes in order to draw attention to the use of that more inclusive word and the avoidance of the words "pilgrim" and "tourist."

I don't see that the person you quoted had said there was anything wrong. He just said that the reasons seem to have changed over the years.

If the local Galician council or any other government department or the church, in Spain, officially classifies what a pilgrim is and what isn't, will that be applied to rule 3?

That would have no relevance to our Rule 3, because we are not allowing arguments about the distinction and we ask members to avoid putting other people into those categories.

 

[Rex]

Growing up in a very judgmental environment, I learned to "label" everyone as "bad/sinner" or "good/saint". This was a major problem for me as I entered adulthood, completely unprepared to deal with the real world that exists in the spectrum of shades of gray.
A kindly theology professor told me that putting labels on people probably revealed more about me than about them and I would do well to consider that as I moved through my life. The penny dropped!! (Capisco!!)
Labels are necessary for inanimate objects in everyday life, but my life has become richer and fuller as I learned that humans don't need labels (OK, names are technically labels, but you get my drift)... we all just need acceptance and love. In that vein, walking caminos/pilgrimages/hikes anywhere can become spiritual events that can enrich my life as they are personal events that resonate (or not) with me personally. That's it. And how you do hikes/pilgrimage/camino is up to you, but know that I've got no labels for you, other than "a compatriot human" traversing life.
Buen Camino!

PS -- Bless Ivar and all the "mods"... they are the oil that keeps this whole thing running smoothly.

 

[peregrina2000]

I think the 100km minimum is to stop it being devalued to the point where it becomes irrelevant. 100km shows some level of commitment and intent and they double down with the requirement to get two stamps a day.

Yes, that’s my point. This way they maintain what I called its prize value. But at the same time, by doing that, they are excluding people who fit the classic definition of pilgrim — someone who travels with religious purpose to a holy shrine to pray. I can imagine that the “piece of paper“ would be valuable to a devout Catholic who has traveled to Santiago, gone to mass, prayed at the tomb, hugged the apostle, etc.

I see that according to Wikipedia, 5,000,000 pilgrims travel to Fátima every year. Of that number, about 40,000 walk. Yet there seems to be no debate about who is a tourist and who is a pilgrim. I suspect that is because the tradition of the pilgrimage to Fátima is way older than the tradition of walking to Fátima, which as I see it, has evolved in tandem with the rise of walkers to Santiago on the Camino.

 

[chuckhibbs]

I confess I haven't read all the responses but as @Bradypus & others who have undertaken (note I didn't say 'walked'..) the Way of 88 Temples in Japan will ascertain, in that case, all methods of completing some or the entirety of the pilgrimage are considered equal in merit.

The basis is not in the level of physical effort (which IMHO is at the core of the argument) but in fulfilling the spiritual aspects which is the very reason the pilgrimage is there in the first place.

Perhaps this change in mindset is what is needed here too. I know personally I no longer differentiate between pilgrimage 'styles'...each to their own for whatever reason. Sempre avanti!

I know I'm fairly new to posting on the forum but I have been following it for over a decade now. I walked my first Camino in 2012 and definitely found myself conflicted and judging at times as I'm sure many others have. But this pretty much said it all.

I learned a lesson on this while sitting at a bus stop in Portmarin that June. I had just crossed the bridge, walked up that steep flight of stairs, then a little farther up to a bus stop. I was completely exhausted. I sat down to rest and eat when a tour bus pulled up. A few dozen people quickly got off the bus carrying small bags with shells attached to them and started heading up into town, but one woman came over and sat down right next to me on the bench.

She started speaking to me in Spanish, which I knew very little of at the time. But she had clearly noticed my tattered shorts and my measly feast. For when I apologized to her for not understanding she just smiled, reached into her bag, pulled out two wrapped bocadillos and two apples and handed them to me. I tried to refuse them but she wouldn't let me.

I eventually took the food and thanked her profusely, and told her I would share it with my friends - which she probably didn't understand, but which I eventually I did as my friends arrived just as she was leaving to head up into the town.

She left with a smile while we ate, and I was left with a new outlook. It shouldn't have taken a selfless act of kindness like that for me to stop judging Camino goers based on appearance alone, but it definitely did the trick.

Only the person on the Camino knows their reason for being there and that is their business, no one else's. But everyone deserves to be treated with the same selfless kindness that woman had shown me. So not only should we keep judgements off the forum, we should keep it off the Camino as well.

Buen Camino to all!

Thank you for sharing that amazing random act of kindness experienced on your Camino. I too, was a recipient of such kindness on my first Camino in 2019. After foolishly walking about 36 miles on first 2 days my poor feet were littered with numerous blisters it was very painful.I developed the famous “ Camino shuffle “. As I passed a group of fellow pilgrims, they noticed my obvious discomfort and after explaining the reason, one of the women ( who was a retired physician) removed my shoes and socks, cleansed my feet and wrapped them with tape. My relief of pain was matched by my overwhelming gratitude. For me this is what Camino is all about.
Thank all of you for being part of this experience.

 

[Pathfinder075]

I see Fatima, more like Lourdes. It's a holy site, not a pilgrimage site. While I am sure pilgrims go to both places on foot, the vast majority go by some other means. Same with the Vatican and Jerusalem. Very few walk to them. I suppose that's the rub. If i'm honest, I don't see the Cathedral in Santiago as being at the same level as Fatima or Lourdes or the Vatican. It's a church at the end of the day and is no different to the other churches (Oviedo, Potes and probably many others) in Spain that supposedly contain relics.

I wonder how many people walk to Mecca? Or if people on bulletin boards have similar discussions and debates over the definition of a pilgrim.

 

[trecile]

The thing I find interesting is when these people finish their camino, then go and get a religious document (Compostella), issued by a religious establishment (the church), while not being religious. Paradoxical?

With regard to para 1 think some people get a Compostella without caring or realising it is a religious document - it’s just a certificate of the walk being completed

The Pilgrim's Office also issues a "welcome certificate" for those who walk without religious or spiritual intent, that is also a beautiful document.

On the left is the Compostela, and on the right is the Welcome certificate.

 

[Bradypus]

Yes, that’s my point. This way they maintain what I called its prize value. But at the same time, by doing that, they are excluding people who fit the classic definition of pilgrim — someone who travels with religious purpose to a holy shrine to pray. I can imagine that the “piece of paper“ would be valuable to a devout Catholic who has traveled to Santiago, gone to mass, prayed at the tomb, hugged the apostle, etc.

There was no minimum distance rule when I walked my first Camino. But you were expected to give some account of your motivation for walking and what made your visit to the shrine of the Apostle a pilgrimage. That situation has now been reversed and despite the wording of the Compostela it is now widely regarded simply as a completion certificate. Oddly the effect of the 100km rule seems to have been to encourage shorter walking pilgrimages (close to the 100km minimum) rather than longer ones which were the norm before the rule was introduced.

 

[peregrina2000]

The Pilgrim's Office also issues a "welcome certificate" for those who walk without religious or spiritual intent, that is also a beautiful document.

On the left is the Compostela, and on the right is the Welcome certificate.

View attachment 153609

I would love to know how many welcome certificates are issued now that the compostela is given to virtually anyone who wants it. I remember someone who vehemently did not want a compostela, and who came back to the pilgrims’ office when he was told by a friend that the document he had been issued was a compostela. But I bet those are very few in number.

@Bradypus seems to have great dexterity navigating the website — is that figure recorded anywhere that you know of?

 

[whiteblaze]

I was visiting France in1996 and became fascinated with the Pilgrimage routes which existed and the stories which reported thousands staying in Chartes. Here I am age 71 and finally able come to Spain and Portugal to walk these ancient routes.
To each their own reason for coming. One is not better than the other. All are welcome!
I believe the Commandment of our Lord is to love one another. Following that thought, just the right words to make everyone feel inclusive of being there would be helpful.

I am grateful for this forum to even exist because it’s helped me immensely to navigate this trip. Thank you very much for doing what you do.

Whiteblaze - Blueblaze (Blue designates I am lost)

 

[Bradypus]

I see Fatima, more like Lourdes. It's a holy site, not a pilgrimage site. While I am sure pilgrims go to both places on foot, the vast majority go by some other means. Same with the Vatican and Jerusalem. Very few walk to them.

I wonder how many people walk to Mecca? Or if people on bulletin boards have similar discussions and debates over the definition of a pilgrim.

Your definition of "pilgrimage" seems to be bound up with the idea of travelling on foot. Focussed on the journey rather than the destination. Santiago is very unusual amongst pilgrimage sites worldwide of many faiths in having the two ideas so closely combined. Why define "pilgrim" according to the rules of the one peculiar exception rather than the norm?

 

[Bradypus]

@Bradypus seems to have great dexterity navigating the website — is that figure recorded anywhere that you know of?

I don't think the welcome certificates are counted separately. Just part of the total. These days they seem to be issued very rarely and only when specifically requested. Johnnie Walker tells me that they do still exist. As the pilgrim office no longer makes any real attempt to assess whether a journey had a spiritual motivation I think the welcome certificate has effectively been shelved in practice.

 

[Pathfinder075]

Your definition of "pilgrimage" seems to be bound up with the idea of travelling on foot. Focussed on the journey rather than the destination. Santiago is very unusual amongst pilgrimage sites worldwide of many faiths in having the two ideas so closely combined. Why define "pilgrim" according to the rules of the one peculiar exception rather than the norm?

I actually don't know. Probably because every pilgrimage I have done, involved walking to somewhere. When a child we walked to Walsingham. A local pilgrimage was a two hour walk. Everything we did church related and pilgrimage related, involved walking, so I guess that is probably where it comes from.

For me it is the journey primarily I guess. The blood, sweat and tears part of getting there and the accomplishment and realisation of achieving the goal. if it was simply the church part, then I could walk down the road and achieve that in 20 mins.

 

[Bradypus]

When a child we walked to Walsingham.

I have walked from Epping to Walsingham several times during Holy Week. But my first visit there was by bus with an Anglican church group from Yorkshire. To an annual event billed as "the National Pilgrimage".

 

[ShoshTrvls]

The Pilgrim's Office also issues a "welcome certificate" for those who walk without religious or spiritual intent, that is also a beautiful document.

On the left is the Compostela, and on the right is the Welcome certificate.

View attachment 153609

Slightly off topic, are they still issuing Welcome Certificates, or have they been replaced by Certificates of Distance?

 

[Bradypus]

Slightly off topic, are they still issuing Welcome Certificates, or have they been replaced by Certificates of Distance?

Two separate items. The distance certificate is an optional extra to accompany either the Compostela or a welcome certificate. The pilgrim office does not issue the distance certificate by itself.

 

[TravellingMan22]

The Pilgrim's Office also issues a "welcome certificate" for those who walk without religious or spiritual intent, that is also a beautiful document.

On the left is the Compostela, and on the right is the Welcome certificate.

View attachment 153609

Thank you very much. To elaborate a little…I guess in terms of my Camino career’ I guess it’s not been typical. My first two were in June and July 2020 during the outbreak of Covid and after being laid off work, I travelled to mainland Europe in June, I had nothing to do and remembered that there was a thing called the Camino so decided to walk that from Porto only the day before! I only met one other person, and knew nothing about the traditions. I did get the stamps and on arriving at Santiago, went to the office and got the Compostella. No queue. I obviously filled out a form. I thought nothing of it really beyond being a certificate. I guess I said I was spiritual, and ‘in search’. I am a very deep thinker and always in search I guess, but spiritual… who knows.

Ditto a month later when I did the Frances also at a days notice. The demographic was young Europeans and again no one talked about the Compostella and the religious significance, apart from the process to get it.

My third and final Camino was in Aug 2021 at the tail end of Covid. I walked with a couple of older Americans for a couple of days who talked a little about the traditions but I was still largely oblivious to it all.

It’s only really on this forum that I have learnt all about the whole ‘pilgrim’ thing and the Compostella and the meaning. I will enjoy my next Camino all the more for it! I think I also got a distance certificate and I would have been fine with just that! I think the distance was offered in addition to the Compostella so I just got everything as a souvenir!

I been travelling for the last three years and all my stuff has been in storage, but I went to my ‘lock up’ last week and saw the tubes which contain my Compostellas but haven’t had a chance to open yet!

 

[Pathfinder075]

I have walked from Epping to Walsingham several times during Holy Week. But my first visit there was by bus with an Anglican church group from Yorkshire. To an annual event billed as "the National Pilgrimage".

My first was long ago, 41 years back, I couldn't say where we started from, but I remember camping two nights before arriving, so maybe somewhere in Norfolk. Then did it again the following year. After that i didn't do it anymore for whatever reason.

 

[El Cascayal]

Threads get closed when people start taking the thread off course or start violating the rules, but hopefully that won’t happen now!

Dream, dream, dream, dream, dreeeeeam…

at least an attitude of search.”

what a beautiful way to describe what many of us as Caminantes, mentioned above, aspire to when walking and living.
Thank you so much for this thoughtful/thought provoking and developing thread. As a forum, rules emerged for clarity and civility, how wonderful to encourage acceptance and compassion within our vast diversity. On a way lighter note, for you fans of the original NCIS, reminds me of Gibbs’ 100 rules. They were pretty good.

 

[pelerine]

I thought the purpose of Rule 3 was to avoid/end discussions/arguments about who is a pilgrim or a tourist. Have been reading about half of the posts and am beginning to feel quite exhausted. How about all of us accepting each other without any judgment and closing this thread. Off to sleep! Goodnight!

 

[trecile]

I thought the purpose of Rule 3 was to avoid/end discussions/arguments about who is a pilgrim or a tourist. Have been reading about half of the posts and am beginning to feel quite exhausted. How about all of us accepting each other without any judgment and closing this thread. Off to sleep! Goodnight!

The point that we are trying to make with this thread is that it's okay to talk about what pilgrimage and the Camino means to you personally, recognizing that we are all different, and not judging or disparaging others who have a different approach or in fact don't even think about it at all.

I think that most people who come to this forum do so for practical advice on how to walk/cycle or ride the Camino, not to be preached to about the "proper" way to do it.

For example, for some people a guided tour is exactly what they want for their pilgrimage. We know that there are groups that go with a pastor as a guide that get a lot of meaning by walking their Camino this way. Or people who say that they can more fully appreciate the time spent walking and focus on the internal when they don't have to think about where they are sleeping each night. Others prefer to "wing it" and have only a loose plan or no plan at all. Different strokes for different folks, and all should be made to feel welcome here.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Different strokes for different folks, and all should be made to feel welcome here.

An excellent post, @trecile...all of it.

 

[pelerine]

The point that we are trying to make with this thread is that it's okay to talk about what pilgrimage and the Camino means to you personally, recognizing that we are all different, and not judging or disparaging others who have a different approach or in fact don't even think about it at all.

I think that most people who come to this forum do so for practical advice on how to walk/cycle or ride the Camino, not to be preached to about the "proper" way to do it.

For example for some people a guided tour is exactly what they want for their pilgrimage. We know that there are groups that go with a pastor as a guide that get a lot of meaning by walking their Camino this way. Or people who say that they can more fully appreciate the time spent walking and focus on the internal when they don't have to think about where they are sleeping each night. Others prefer to "wing it" and have only a loose plan or no plan at all. Different strokes for different folks, and all should be made to feel welcome here.

Yes, all of this is the purpose of this forum! But Rule 3 to me simply says do not judge your fellow travellers(?) - pilgrims or tourists or any combination thereof.

 

[OzAnnie]

“We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love...and then we return home.”
An Aboriginal proverb quoted by The Queen in 2011.

Rule 3 makes perfect sense to me. I generally skip threads or posts when a valid question, especially by a newbie, is sidetracked and deviates towards the whole "true" pilgrim discussion. If you can't contribute constructively, move on.

Yes, the Camino has changed over the years, deal with it. There are enough Camino routes out there for everyone.

It's just not my business how someone else decides to walk their Camino. We may walk on Holy ground but that doesn't make us Holy

Totally agree Lee


Also another short post above from @stevepjq Post #30

‘Be kind’. So simple.

 

[ChrisG1]

I am confused as to why we even need this discussion. Does it matter if travellers are tourists or pilgrims? This site provides information to those who need it - whatever there reasons. Not for us to judge.