Bicycle Peregrinos <grumble>

[tgelder]

My Wife and I hiked from SJPDP to Santiago September/October 2013. Wonderful trip! Fabulous People and scenery, amazing Villages, and a spectrum of places to stay. The only downside to this trip were 95% of the Peregrinos who were riding their bikes. First off, Thank You to the 5% who either announced their approach or simply slowed down to pass the walkers. You were Great and almost made up for the others.

The "Others" rode by at 3X or 5X or even 10X the speed of the walkers without so much as ringing a bell, calling out "On Your Left (Right) or Vorsicht/Pas auf or any other kind of warning. Narrow trails, narrow roads, wide roads - did not matter! Were they Spanish, French, German, English, American? Who knows.

Being a Bike Rider and a sailor myself, the SOP is that Overtaking Traffic Must Keep Clear! But that courtesy and safety practice seemed to be unknown to the vast majority of the bike riders.

They became traffic on our "threat boards" - a reason to "Check 6" and a matter of medium level anxiety. They totally endangered the walkers and themselves. A collision could cause injuries and then what? Where would one obtain medical aid? And when would it arrive, if ever?

Any ideas? - short of putting one's walking stick in their spokes?

Tobey

 

[MichaelB10398]

Tobey, I am sure that many both share and understand your feelings. If I could wave a hand instantly and make a universal change it would be to ban all bikes on the Camino or any other place people walk or hike. I just don't think they mix well and never will. However, given that I don't have that ability, I am forced to acknowledge that without any such laws bikers have just as much right to the Camino or trail as I do.

I have a choice; to walk in anger and frustration that bikes are whizzing past me without giving any notice or learn to cope with their behavior. I look for ways to avoid them and to ensure my own safety.

If it has been a very tough day and I see the biker again I will politely, calmly ask them, plead with them, to notify pilgrims of their passing and to give pilgrims a wide berth when passing. It is a courtesy that will create infinite good feelings on the Camino.

I never thought of putting a walking stick through their spokes. Hmm, I could see a certain pleasure in making that choice. Me thinks you have a wickedly devious mind, my friend.

Allow others the freedom to the Camino that we desire regardless of their mode of transport. As pilgrims it would help to be a source of peace rather than the opposite.

 

[newfydog]

Any ideas? - short of putting one's walking stick in their spokes?

Tobey

Well, could subscribe to the philosophy that two wrongs make a right, and that violence is a good solution, and go ahead and put a stick in their spokes. It obviously appeals to Michael B as well.

Great pilgrims, all of you.

 

[jstorybook]

I can understand the frustration with the pilgrims on bikes and the dangers associated with them as I encountered them many times during my walk this year from SJPDP to Santiago in Oct-Nov. There were very few bikers who would warn me of their approach--but that is a start--there were some polite bikers. When I did hear a bike approaching I learned not to try to look around or even move out of the way because usually they were moving so fast that if I paused to look around or tried to move out of the way that actually might be a move in the wrong direction--assuming that they saw me and are trying to avoid a collision my wrong move might actually be the cause of a collision. And even those the rude bikers who give no warning is a source of irritation with me--the only person I have control over is myself and so I chose not to curse them, or put my pacer poles in their spokes even though I often felt like it. On on occasion I found a biker broken down on the side of the road--being a former bike rider and mechanic I decided to help him--thus a relationship was formed that I hope that through his story that a walking pilgrim helping a biker might begin to make a change on the Camino--as it is said: you be the change you want to see in the world (Gandhi).

 

[PANO]

The only downside to this trip were 95% of the Peregrinos who were riding their bikes.

Hola Tobey
Having walked the Frances at about the same time you did, I had a different perception. I would reverse your percentages to say that about 5% of the bikers did not behave, while the vast majority were polite, trying to fit-in as peregrinos by greeting politely and carefully minding us walkers. This was especially so along the first 2/3rds of the way, the closer to Sarria and beyond, the more bikers became annoying by their sheer number, but really rude encounters were rare.
I agree with you though, that the cyclists ought to be restricted to paved roads, simply because the walking tracks are too busy; the regional authorities could easily separate the two peregrino-categories by invoking existing laws and by marking the bicycle routes with differently coloured arrows or whatever. This would give the walkers a right to protest and quickly drive the bikers off the trails.
The bikers should understand the Camino as a long-distance cruise rather than a mountain-biking adventure because they are less agile than the walkers and their silent speed can be very dangerous for both. Aggression on either side however is not a solution. Why doesn't the office of peregrinos in Santiago conduct simple polls while issuing the compostelas, to give a voice to all pilgrims; this would help to make authorities aware, not only of the biker issue but of other problems like hygiene, pollution (the toilet-paper trail) too.
Pierre aka Don Pedro

 

[gerardcarey]

You're preaching to the converted on this Forum cobber.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

short of putting one's walking stick in their spokes?

The temptation can be nearly overwhelming!

 

[stevenjarvis]

There is another recent thread on this subject here http://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/cycling-bells-a-must.20413/#post-168120 .

The situation isn't going to change any time soon. In the longer term , education could play an important role. I hope that initiatives like the Xacobinos , Pilgrims of the future, might influence behavior. Information here http://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/new-project-in-santiago-xacobiños-the-pilgrims-of-the-future.21716/

 

[jennyleinbach]

Hola Tobey
Having walked the Frances at about the same time you did, I had a different perception. I would reverse your percentages to say that about 5% of the bikers did not behave, while the vast majority were polite, trying to fit-in as peregrinos by greeting politely and carefully minding us walkers. This was especially so along the first 2/3rds of the way, the closer to Sarria and beyond, the more bikers became annoying by their sheer number, but really rude encounters were rare.
I agree with you though, that the cyclists ought to be restricted to paved roads, simply because the walking tracks are too busy; the regional authorities could easily separate the two peregrino-categories by invoking existing laws and by marking the bicycle routes with differently coloured arrows or whatever. This would give the walkers a right to protest and quickly drive the bikers off the trails.
The bikers should understand the Camino as a long-distance cruise rather than a mountain-biking adventure because they are less agile than the walkers and their silent speed can be very dangerous for both. Aggression on either side however is not a solution. Why doesn't the office of peregrinos in Santiago conduct simple polls while issuing the compostelas, to give a voice to all pilgrims; this would help to make authorities aware, not only of the biker issue but of other problems like hygiene, pollution (the toilet-paper trail) too.
Pierre aka Don Pedro

I'm so glad you said it, Don Pedro! I totally agree that the percentage of rude cyclers was closer to 5%. Altho it is sad that we couldn't form relationships with these folks whizzing along at 10X our speed, I found the cyclers to be delightful company once we all stopped and shared libations in the evening! Live and let live.

 

[newfydog]

Your'e preaching to the converted on this Forum cobber.

Exactly. The people I have encountered biking without much regard to the walkers are not the cyclists on this forum, they are Spanish guys riding the way some Spanish guys are apt to ride.

Being a Bike Rider and a sailor myself, the SOP is that Overtaking Traffic Must Keep Clear!

Unfortunately, you aren't in a sailboat. You might as well complain about Spanish drivers, or the cooks putting too many pimientos in the food.
They are in their own country, on a trail open to cyclists. If you are not prepared to accept them as part of the experience you will be miserable out there, and should consider whether or not a walk on that trail in Spain is for you.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

a trail open to cyclists

And to walkers. Don't give the cyclists and inch!

 

[indyinmaine]

I understand Tobey's concern and rather than trying to "wave a hand" and make it disappear, there IS a real danger. I nearly got hit AND almost accidently put my sticks through his wheel. He never even looked back! I suspect that there are some who are not pilgrims and just use the Camino on weekends or with their biking friends. Whatever the case is, for those who DO have a passport it should be made explicitly clear that, as on the road, the "vehicle" in front of you has the right-of-way! Keeping to the right or left would be confusing depending on whether you were from the UK!

 

[newfydog]

" there IS a real danger. I nearly got hit

Yep, I won't pretend there isn't more risk of biker walker collision on the Camino than other trails.

I had a friend who climbed Mt Blanc and could not believe the utter disregard the French climbers had for rockfall. In the states we are all very careful, and have a concern for the climbers below. On Mt Blanc the climbers above showered the climbers below without warning or apology. When he confronted them, he was told that he "ought to stay home, and not climb in France because that is the way they do it. If France is too dangerous for you, climb somewhere else."

So, I agree it is not pleasant, but it is what it is. It is not my place to make the rules for other countries.

 

[David]

It is really more the fear of being hit because of the startlement at the speed they pass rather than the actual possibility of being hit, isn't it? The cyclist behind can see you and is quite used to maneuvering so in theory shouldn't run you down.
I suppose pilgrims could attach a small mirror to their hats? This would allow pilgrims to see the cyclist approach and then lurch to the side and cause a collision if they come too close .. a few thousand of those with the subsequent insurance claims might slow them down

Or carry one of those pressured gas canister bull horns and blow it in their ear as they pass - they might fall off - or, well, just accept it as part of the Camino

Buen Camino all

 

[lbpierce]

If I were Queen of the Camino, I would require every pilgrim to sign a statement before they were issued a credential that they would agree to comply with certain rules in exchange for the privilege of walking the Camino. One would be to not to leave ANY litter on the road or anywhere else except a trash container. And you could give the peregrino a small garbage bag with their credential to get started, and include the cost of the bag in the cost of the credential. It is easy enough to get more plastic bags along the way.

Another rule might apply to cyclists that they announce themselves as they come up to a walker. And I am sure there would be other good reminders. It's not that such a statement would be enforceable, legally or otherwise, but it would help educate people and remind people of common courtesies.

 

[gerardcarey]

If I were Queen of the Camino, I would require every pilgrim to sign a statement before they were issued a credential that they would agree to comply with certain rules in exchange for the privilege of walking the Camino. One would be to not to leave ANY litter on the road or anywhere else except a trash container. And you could give the peregrino a small garbage bag with their credential to get started, and include the cost of the bag in the cost of the credential. It is easy enough to get more plastic bags along the way.

Another rule might apply to cyclists that they announce themselves as they come up to a walker. And I am sure there would be other good reminders. It's not that such a statement would be enforceable, legally or otherwise, but it would help educate people and remind people of common courtesies.

If I was King of the Camino........I'd find a new Queen!

 

[newfydog]

You need to be aware that much of the trail is shared by the local Spanish people going about their lives. You share it in various places with cars, tractors, cows, and local recreational riders.

Out of curiosity, I went to Strava, an online site where riders record their rides on a GPS and "race" each other. The Alto de Perdon has the records of 88 rides. The fastest rider to date covered the 1.6 km climb in 8:22, averaging 11.3 km/hour with a heart rate of 192 bpm.

I wish they wouldn't race on the Camino, but like I've said, the vast majority of the riders racing along are locals. If I want a trail closed to bikes, I need to go somewhere else.

 

[Icacos]

..... AND almost accidently put my sticks through his wheel.

Oh, dear …… I'm afraid I might have been tempted to take the opportunity to accidentally put my sticks through his wheel.

 

[JennyH94]

If I were Queen of the Camino, I would require every pilgrim to sign a statement before they were issued a credential that they would agree to comply with certain rules in exchange for the privilege of walking the Camino. One would be to not to leave ANY litter on the road or anywhere else except a trash container. And you could give the peregrino a small garbage bag with their credential to get started, and include the cost of the bag in the cost of the credential. It is easy enough to get more plastic bags along the way.

Another rule might apply to cyclists that they announce themselves as they come up to a walker. And I am sure there would be other good reminders. It's not that such a statement would be enforceable, legally or otherwise, but it would help educate people and remind people of common courtesies.

Hi Linda -
I'm volunteering myself as one of your Ladies in Waiting! Everything you've said here is so true and your ideas are fantastic.
We all know that it all boils down to manners and being responsible - some people have manners and others don't, some people are responsible and others aren't.
All anyone can do is what you suggest ... educate people and remind people of common courtesies ... hoping that we're given the chance to do that, in a respectful way.
Cheers - Jenny

 

[Deleted member 12253]

My Wife and I hiked from SJPDP to Santiago September/October 2013. Wonderful trip! Fabulous People and scenery, amazing Villages, and a spectrum of places to stay. The only downside to this trip were 95% of the Peregrinos who were riding their bikes. First off, Thank You to the 5% who either announced their approach or simply slowed down to pass the walkers. You were Great and almost made up for the others.

The "Others" rode by at 3X or 5X or even 10X the speed of the walkers without so much as ringing a bell, calling out "On Your Left (Right) or Vorsicht/Pas auf or any other kind of warning. Narrow trails, narrow roads, wide roads - did not matter! Were they Spanish, French, German, English, American? Who knows.

Being a Bike Rider and a sailor myself, the SOP is that Overtaking Traffic Must Keep Clear! But that courtesy and safety practice seemed to be unknown to the vast majority of the bike riders.

They became traffic on our "threat boards" - a reason to "Check 6" and a matter of medium level anxiety. They totally endangered the walkers and themselves. A collision could cause injuries and then what? Where would one obtain medical aid? And when would it arrive, if ever?

Any ideas? - short of putting one's walking stick in their spokes?

Tobey

During my many caminos I noticed that walkers are very slow to give way to cyclists, when warned by bells, whistle etc, especially groups, but then some cyclists are stupid, in 2011 walking up to ocebrioro I saw a cyclists who had head down going up steep hill run into a big tractor, result cyclist air lifted to hospital by air ambulance.

 

[Al the optimist]

And if the walker has a hearing problem?

 

[Olivares]

So, I agree it is not pleasant, but it is what it is. It is not my place to make the rules for other countries.

This is not a geopolitical matter ; to act with kindness and consideration is not a matter of geography, it is a matter of personal character. To advise of your impending approach as you come in from behind at a speed and on a bike is not only common sense (universal), but it is for YOUR own safety (...forget about the walkers! ).

If we are to assign %'s, my own experience was more like 75% of bikers behind me would either ring a bell or say "Buen Camino". Most were very polite.

 

[newfydog]

During my many caminos I noticed that walkers are very slow to give way to cyclists, when warned by bells, whistle

Don't give the cyclists and inch!

Falcon has the right approach, perhaps inadvertently. It is best to not jump out of the way, or you might jump right into the cyclist as they pass. Most of the trails have plenty of room to pass, and it is best to continue walking a straight line so the cyclist knows where you will be.

If you are walking three abreast, and you hear a biker coming, making some room is just common courtesy, but most of the time there is plenty of room to pass a walker who is predictable.

 

[whariwharangi]

I cycle on occasion. I'm not decided if it is worth buying a bell. When I yell 'passing on your left' the pedestrian is as likely to weave into your path as out of it, greatly increasing the probability for collision. If I don't say anything they just walk straight, a much more predictable situation, and so what if they are startled after I am past.

That being said ... some trails should not have bikes on them. Trails clearly suffer from erosion exacerbated by bikes. Wilderness parks where I live don't allow bikes on trails in part due to potential for conflict with bears and other wild life that are more likely to avoid contact with a slower moving hiker. Camino Frances is a candidate for bike bans due to the volume of people walking on it.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

and so what if they are startled after I am past.

I love it!!!

 

[David]

I cycle on occasion. I'm not decided if it is worth buying a bell. When I yell 'passing on your left' the pedestrian is as likely to weave into your path as out of it, greatly increasing the probability for collision. If I don't say anything they just walk straight, a much more predictable situation, and so what if they are startled after I am past.

That being said ... some trails should not have bikes on them. Trails clearly suffer from erosion exacerbated by bikes. Wilderness parks where I live don't allow bikes on trails in part due to potential for conflict with bears and other wild life that are more likely to avoid contact with a slower moving hiker. Camino Frances is a candidate for bike bans due to the volume of people walking on it.

Ah! there is the answer! We introduce bears onto the Camino - result!

 

[David]

The other day on a section of the Camino, a cyclist was speeding down the narrow, twisting, mountain.

As he rode fast towards some pilgrims sitting by a sharp bend having lunch they all looked at him, jumped up and started waving and shouting

"PIG! PIG!!" ... "PIG! PIG!!"

So he flipped them the finger, zoomed past, and shouted back some things I would rather not repeat.

Smiling with false superiority he flashed around the bend and promptly collided with a pig.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

If you have a little spare time while walking, you can drag logs across the trail, or stack rocks at the end of a blind curve. That would slow down the bicycles...

 

[NicoZ]

The other day on a section of the Camino, a cyclist was speeding down the narrow, twisting, mountain.

As he rode fast towards some pilgrims sitting by a sharp bend having lunch they all looked at him, jumped up and started waving and shouting

"PIG! PIG!!" ... "PIG! PIG!!"

So he flipped them the finger, zoomed past, and shouted back some things I would rather not repeat.

Smiling with false superiority he flashed around the bend and promptly collided with a pig.

Could have been worse. Wild boars aren't kind of enough to just stand there.

 

[newfydog]

If you have a little spare time while walking, you can drag logs across the trail, or stack rocks at the end of a blind curve. That would slow down the bicycles...

Falcon, time for you to realize you hate bikers, and move on.

Here's a map or various ways to Santiago. Only one segment of them has many bikes. The rest are downright lonely. You might find if you got off the Frances you would be less full of anger.

 

[David]

Newfydog - I really do think, that like others on this thread, Falcon was doing humour - I thought it quite funny .. and as Falc doesn't attempt too much humour let us not put him off the idea! He did add a smiley wink to show he was having fun.

 

[JennyH94]

The other day on a section of the Camino, a cyclist was speeding down the narrow, twisting, mountain.

As he rode fast towards some pilgrims sitting by a sharp bend having lunch they all looked at him, jumped up and started waving and shouting

"PIG! PIG!!" ... "PIG! PIG!!"

So he flipped them the finger, zoomed past, and shouted back some things I would rather not repeat.

Smiling with false superiority he flashed around the bend and promptly collided with a pig.

David! You're ON FIRE today! Two hilarious posts! I'm going to tell your "PIG! PIG!" joke at the next Pilgrims in Sydney meeting! Thanks for the laughs.
Cheers - Jenny

 

[Deleted member 3000]

At least I did not suggest stringing piano wire at throat level...

 

[whariwharangi]

Ah! there is the answer! We introduce bears onto the Camino - result!

New Zealand has a problem with introduced species such as deer. They periodically go around with a helicopter armed with a machine gun and while away a few happy hours culling the herd. A more obvious solution (I thought) would be to introduce wolves ... an idea that apparently doesn't sit well with the locals.

There would likely be similar irrational opposition to reintroducing bears to the north of Spain. Even if it is in the community spirited interests of keeping the cycling population under control.

 

[David]

New Zealand has a problem with introduced species such as deer. They periodically go around with a helicopter armed with a machine gun and while away a few happy hours culling the herd. A more obvious solution (I thought) would be to introduce wolves ... an idea that apparently doesn't sit well with the locals.

There would likely be similar irrational opposition to reintroducing bears to the north of Spain. Even if it is in the community spirited interests of keeping the cycling population under control.

Your New Zealand deer fly helicopters? and they have machine guns? Crikey! Not much venison in the restaurants then!

 

[Icacos]

Your New Zealand deer fly helicopters? and they have machine guns? Crikey! Not much venison in the restaurants then!

David, you ARE on a roll today!

 

[newfydog]

Falcon was doing humour - I thought it quite funny

Ok.
I'm sure if I make a few about assaulting walkers Falcon will be just rolling on the floor in laughter. And consider it constructive dialog.

 

[tgelder]

Oh, dear …… I'm afraid I might have been tempted to take the opportunity to accidentally put my sticks through his wheel.

Hi Friends,

Please note my original post said ..... Any Ideas ... SHORT of putting walking sticks ... Translated this means NO putting walking sticks into spokes. While not mentioned that would include NOT dragging logs etc onto the path, NO piano wire - usw - you get the picture. Whatever vicarious retribution achieved by such thoughts vanishes if you just imagine explaining one of those actions to the unhappy police officers that might arrive... But , the risk is real -a biology professor at our local University died after being struck by a bicycle rider .

Another note - the local people using the paths for inter-city transport are very recognizeable as about half of them approach you from the front.

Thanks to all who replied - and thanks to all the riders who are/were courteous.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

I'm sure if I make a few about assaulting walkers Falcon will be just rolling on the floor in laughter.

Yes. See above.

and so what if they are startled after I am past.

I love it!!!attachFull6877

I love how it does not matter that someone was startled as long as the danger to the biker has passed.

 

[David]

let us keep it fluffy now. Has been good humour with no real desire to hurt cyclists .. just sort of jokey stuff. I would quite like to see jokes from cyclists about pilgrims now

 

[stevenjarvis]

New Zealand has a problem with introduced species such as deer. They periodically go around with a helicopter armed with a machine gun and while away a few happy hours culling the herd. A more obvious solution (I thought) would be to introduce wolves ... an idea that apparently doesn't sit well with the locals.

There would likely be similar irrational opposition to reintroducing bears to the north of Spain. Even if it is in the community spirited interests of keeping the cycling population under control.

There are bears in Spain. To avoid them, cyclists should smear themselves in fish paste, which acts as a deterrent....

 

[dougfitz]

Newfydog - I really do think, that like others on this thread, Falcon was doing humour - I thought it quite funny .. and as Falc doesn't attempt too much humour let us not put him off the idea! He did add a smiley wink to show he was having fun.

I have been watching and wondering whether you had all reverted to being 12yo schoolboys at the back of the bike shed plotting devious schemes against you least favourite teachers. All full of bluster and bravado until discovered, and then amazingly meek and mild upon discovery!

 

[whariwharangi]

There are bears in Spain. To avoid them, cyclists should smear themselves in fish paste, which acts as a deterrent....

Picture this: Grizzly browsing for food. Along comes a cyclist ,,, swift ,,, silent ,,, startling. The bear, as startled as any pilgrim by the sudden, silent, presence of a cyclist, takes a swipe at the cyclist. True story from first known human/bear conflict in Kluane Park Yukon.

Fish paste not needed.

There are bears in Spain. I had thought they were in the Pyranees but no. The population is on the mountainous boundary between Castilla y Leon and Cantabria as well as Castilla y Leon and Asturias. ... Just north of the Camino Frances. So I guess an encounter with a Brown is not out of the question.

http://www.iberianature.com/material/spainbearnews.htm

 

[Green Tortuga]

The "Others" rode by at 3X or 5X or even 10X the speed of the walkers without so much as ringing a bell, calling out "On Your Left (Right) or Vorsicht/Pas auf or any other kind of warning.

I can't say this bothered me a whole lot since I'd usually hear them long before they reached me. Gotta pay attention to one's surroundings, right? =) When I did hear them, I usually didn't even do anything about it. When you're walking on a big, open path that's ten feet wide, I figure they're going to see me and ride around me, so I'd just walk straight and didn't make any sudden moves to the left or right where I might surprise them and cause a collision. I can probably count on one hand the number of times a bike actually surprised me when they passed.

If it's any consolation, though, the only collisions I ever saw involving bicyclists were bicyclists losing control on a rough section of trail and crashing themselves. No pedestrians (or even any other bicyclists) involved. Consequently, I suspect more bicyclists get injured on the trail than walkers. Keep that in mind as they're whizzing past you. It might make you feel better. =)

-- Ryan, who likes to be easy-going =)

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

Much of the cycling that I do is on what you'd term shared-use paths and I think the onus really does have to be on the cyclist to slow down.

The old shouting out or ringing a bell thing is a tricky one. Walkers don't always hear things correctly picking up a "....mppphh mmpphh LEFT! and assuming that they heard "keep left" when, in fact, "on your left" was shouted. A bell invariably causes people to turn round and move sideways in some completely unpredictable direction to the cyclist.

I generally don't shout out or ring my bell but instead, when passing a walker, will slow down to walking speed so nobody gets surprised and I'll always be able to stop if someone wanders. It would be nice, though, if walkers would return the courtesy and not "hog" the whole width of the path walking three, four...more...abreast!

I've not been on my (walking) camino yet so don't know how much any of this is a problem I guess though it's just like all walks of life (as it were); there are a minority of people who think they're more important than everyone else and a majority who are naturally just considerate to others. Maybe we shouldn't expect anything different.

As for head high piano wire - dog walkers have their own equivalent - extendable and not very visible dog leads!

 

[newfydog]

I've not been on my (walking) camino yet so don't know how much any of this is a problem I guess though it's just like all walks of life (as it were); there are a minority of people who think they're more important than everyone else and a majority who are naturally just considerate to others. Maybe we shouldn't expect anything different.

That pretty much nails it. I've biked about 6000 km's on these trails, including the Frances twice. I never came even close to hitting a walker. I have had walkers try to physically prevent me from passing twice. We had one macho Brazilian biker who could not deal with the fact that he could not keep up with my wife on the climbs and flew past us rather dangerously us several times on the descents, until he saw a long climb coming and hid in the woods rather than seeing her bike up one more hill he had to walk. Everyone else was wonderful, and those other people were pretty entertaining.

There will always be some people who whine when the world doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what it should be, but I suspect your Camino will be a positive experience, without death by mountain bike.

 

[dougfitz]

The old shouting out or ringing a bell thing is a tricky one. Walkers don't always hear things correctly picking up a "....mppphh mmpphh LEFT! and assuming that they heard "keep left" when, in fact, "on your left" was shouted. A bell invariably causes people to turn round and move sideways in some completely unpredictable direction to the cyclist.

Then there is the problem that there is a significant proportion of us who are culturally attuned to cyclists passing on the right, and we have a conditioned response to move to the left on hearing a shout or a bell.

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

Not to mention the language barrier! One man's left being another man's links, izquierda...

 

[Deleted member 12253]

And if the walker has a hearing problem?

I do have a hearing problem. But I am not deaf, some of the most interesting pilgrims I met on camino were cyclists. As a child, long time ago, I threw a small stick into the front wheel and watched in horror as cyclists went head first over handlebars and onto road, banged head, no helmets in them days, out cold for minutes. Don't even think about doing it on camino. Live and let live, I don't cycle !

 

[Al the optimist]

Not supporting cyclists or walkers here, just replying to the comment about walkers walking abreast. Walkers have a better opportunity to enjoy conversation than cyclists do and many often find it easier to do so walking abreast when they don't want to enjoy the more solitary contemplative moments. Having said that being at the national monument (alto de parejas? - sorry cannot remember it's name at this Alzhiemer's moment) at the same time as coach loads of weekend day walkers meant a long downhill walk through cloying mud (preventing me from escaping them) listening to load chattering reminiscent of a Madrid bar on Saturday night.

 

[Cambridge Pilgrim]

Yes indeed - which is why I missed out walking two abreast. I was really referring to larger groups.

All depends how wide the path is of course! Horses for courses...

Come to think about it...horses / donkeys - anything worth noting about etiquette there?

 

[stevenjarvis]

A sedan chair offers excellent protection from cyclists.

 

[NicoZ]

Are you suggesting opening the door of your sedan when a cyclist goes by? Isn't that a little too late?

 

[Al the optimist]

Do sedan chairs have to have someone walking in front with a red flag?

 

[stevenjarvis]

Do sedan chairs have to have someone walking in front with a red flag?

Brilliant idea, the spare bearer can do that...

 

[whariwharangi]

Then there is the problem that there is a significant proportion of us who are culturally attuned to cyclists passing on the right, and we have a conditioned response to move to the left on hearing a shout or a bell.

My observation (having been in a few close calls) is that, if there is a conditioned response, some move right and some move left ... (some do both) ... as unpredictably and randomly as possible. A flock of chickens is more predictable. I am therefore of the opinion that I as a cyclist am less likely to have an accident if I make no alerting noises. The experience as a cyclist means that as a pedestrian I stop in my tracks as soon as I am aware of a cyclist coming from behind ... he no longer has to guess what I will do next.

 

[Adrian961]

I'm a cyclist, don't have a car so use a bike for getting about doing shopping etc and as a leisure thing. Locally there's a largely off road shared path, the Viking trail. In summer some small sections are closed for cycling where there are beach huts, kids running about, lifeguards posing for girls and so forth. I always dismount there much to the disappointment of beach hut people who seem disappointed I've denied them the chance to moan about cyclists. As a walker, and soon to be walking peregrino, as long as there is room for a cyclist to pass I'm not bothered. What seems like reckless speed to a pedestrian is often just controlled progress to the cyclist. If there isn't room to pass most cyclists will just slow down and pass where possible. On the Camino I wonder how many cycle v walker collisions there are? Fewer than cycle v tree, pig, cow, fence, and car I guess. Personally I'm more worried about red wine hangovers than cyclists.....

 

[plainlost]

The other day on a section of the Camino, a cyclist was speeding down the narrow, twisting, mountain.

As he rode fast towards some pilgrims sitting by a sharp bend having lunch they all looked at him, jumped up and started waving and shouting

"PIG! PIG!!" ... "PIG! PIG!!"

So he flipped them the finger, zoomed past, and shouted back some things I would rather not repeat.

Smiling with false superiority he flashed around the bend and promptly collided with a pig.

OH.EM.GEE! That had me laughing for a bit!! Thanks for the Monday morning giggle!

 

[Theatregal]

Bike barrier on the Primitivo….
In my experience, I'd say 99% of cyclists have passed with a "Buen Camino" and I've never had any close calls or felt in danger of being hit.

 

[Susannafromsweden]

Bike barrier on the Primitivo….
In my experience, I'd say 99% of cyclists have passed with a "Buen Camino" and I've never had any close calls or felt in danger of being hit.

+1 to that. Most of them are very nice. Quite often they stop and want to talk for a while.

 

[Tia Valeria]

When we reached the Francés from the Primitivo we were used to some road walking. This meant walking on the left to face oncoming traffic. Therefore when a cyclist came behind us we would instinctively move to our left so that the bike went by on our right. Something that cyclists maybe need to realise is probably likely to be true for many walkers.

 

[ManyMiles2Go]

I cycle on occasion. I'm not decided if it is worth buying a bell. When I yell 'passing on your left' the pedestrian is as likely to weave into your path as out of it, greatly increasing the probability for collision. If I don't say anything they just walk straight, a much more predictable situation, and so what if they are startled after I am past.

That being said ... some trails should not have bikes on them. Trails clearly suffer from erosion exacerbated by bikes. Wilderness parks where I live don't allow bikes on trails in part due to potential for conflict with bears and other wild life that are more likely to avoid contact with a slower moving hiker. Camino Frances is a candidate for bike bans due to the volume of people walking on it.

I agree with this. On my Camino, I did this to a biker. He yelled, and I thought I was moving OUT of his way, but actually moved right in front of him. No collision, I apologized, and he smiled and said no problem. Had many bikers pass me by without saying a word until they were right beside me and then a "Buen Camino" as they rode past. Had very little problem with bikers and much enjoyed their company at the albergues. It was interesting to compare their biking with our walking. And from another members post here, I met some bikers from Brazil riding with one from Canada. They were hilarious!! We laughed all through dinner that night

 

[David]

the sad thing about cycling is that the walkers they meet and have a great time with at a refugio - they never see them again, by lunch time they can be two days further on ... to be a lone cyclist on the Camino is to live a solitary life indeed .. unless one meets other cyclists of course ...

 

[alexwalker]

Smiling with false superiority he flashed around the bend and promptly collided with a pig.

Priceless!

I have never had problems with cyclists, but I have seen some inconsiderate ones. But the vast majority have passed me with a friendly "Buen Camino!".

 

[calgarybicigrino]

Hello All and Buen Camino.
I'd like to post my experience and trust when I say as a cyclist, I am sympathetic to all comments here, some funny, some based on frustration and I understand this as well.
Whenever I ride, on any trail, I have a bell and I ALWAYS advise the walkers that I am "passing on the left" or "right" depending on where I am riding. None the less, I always give a heads up no matter what. It's a proven fact that Euro riders for the most part are not that "aware" and feel they own the road. I don't share that view.
I do want to say however, that many times, walkers who travel in a pack, do so 3 or 4 abreast and many times are stopped to talk about life, love and liberty. Many riders either should slow down and clearly warn of their approach using the bell along with a verbal note, BUT...and I say BUT, walkers, PLEASE know if you want to adjust your shoes or boots, in certain circumstances take pictures or have a great pause of life, PLEASE move off the trail as safely as you can, do not sit down in the middle, that is dangerous.
Ok, so that is all I wanted to add and I've had the immense pleasure of meeting some amazing folks just by stopping to say hello or riding beside them and sharing a good laugh, it's easy to do and share.

 

[stevenjarvis]

"Bicigrino" .... so much better than my "Bikegrim" !

 

[freeflyer123]

I really wanted to cry when I read many of the entries here. As a cyclist, I am used to getting abuse from car drivers, specially in Britain, although I consider myself a very careful rider and consider everybody else on the road.

But I have always discovered that drivers in France, and now in Spain, tend to be very courteous and patient with other road users. During our time riding the Camino de Santiago, I also found pilgrims walking along the route very agreeable. On the rare occasions that we rode on the paths we used our bells and rode a great deal slower because we did not wish to upset anyone. We soon discovered that many pilgrims, especially when they were walking in groups, were completely unaware of other users along the path and so we would take our time to make sure they were aware that we were there.

Many of the entries above are very aggressive and it makes me realize that it is not only the car drivers who dislike us cyclists. The remark about putting a walking stick in a spoke may have been said in jest (I hope), but I would not countenance such behavior. How would they feel when they then have to tend to a cyclist lying on the floor in agony? Perhaps the solution may be to divide the paths by a white line so that "walkers stay on the left" and "cyclists stay on the right". Having said that, I found that many of the roads had adequate provision for cycling along - although it was difficult having to negotiate some of the larger roads near the main towns. I had one hairy moment when two very large pantechnicons overloaded with logs passed me going downhill at some speed and I had trouble keeping the bike from toppling over. At that moment my thought was "perhaps I should have used the path"...

 

[newfydog]

I really wanted to cry when I read many of the entries here.....


I had one hairy moment when two very large pantechnicons overloaded with logs passed me going downhill at some speed and I had trouble keeping the bike from toppling over. At that moment my thought was "perhaps I should have used the path"...

I've had five friends killed by cars and trucks while cycling. I avoid roads and take a car free trail every chance I can. Don't let this thread discourage you, the vast majority of both walkers and cyclists share the trails well.

 

[David]

Freeflyer, don't be upset - I don't think any of it is truly serious, except for the disgruntled pokes at inconsiderate cyclists - and, as you will know, there are many - usually male and testosterone fuelled. It can be a real shock when one is startled by an unexpected cyclist zooming past close and fast, with no warning
All is well, we are all pilgrims, all is well.

I also cycle at home and in England it can be particularly horrid and dangerous cycling as so many motorists seem to have no awareness of cyclists and how vulnerable they are - and, yes, cycling in France and Spain is a different experience, even lorry drivers being aware and giving way - perhaps because cycle racing is such a large and respected sport over there they are more aware.
I am thinking of taking my bike this spring so that I can carry all my first aid kits and cover more miles from my base - and I do have a bell on it!

The negative comments are from those who have been scared by discourteous cyclists - I don't think that any of it is a dig at 'all' cyclists.

All is well.

Buen Camino

 

[Kathy F.]

I am an American living in Germany. I assure you that the bicycle riders here ride just as relentlessly as those on the Camino. I have come as close to being struck by a cycler here going shopping as any incident on the CF. Is it a European thing, like the rock climbing? I have friends who can no longer take their children to a local park because the danger of the child being hit by a passing cycler is too great. And this is at a playground!!

 

[t2andreo]

On my first Camino, I was literally forced off the path by two, silent, racing cyclists coming DOWN Alto de Perdon. Had it not been for my walking companion screaming "LOOK OUT!" at the top of her lungs - she was from New Zealand so it was LOUD (must be a rugby thing) - I would not be here typing this...and away we go...

BACKGROUND:

As most of you know, the path up to Alto de Perdon is narrow and winding, with several switchbacks that produce blind corners for both walkers and cyclists. The "inside" or left-side going up is covered with brush and shrubbery and slopes gently UP. However, the "outside" or right-side leading up to the summit drops DOWN in a nasty, very steep slope of at least 30 degrees or more, without significant rock outcroppings or trees.

If one were to fall off the path to the right, there is literally nothing to stop you going ALL THE WAY. The likely result is disabling injury or probably death from a broken neck, as a rucksack will torque one's neck unnaturally.

In fact, a week earlier, a French day hiker fell off a path in the Pyrenees - not on a Camino - and this is exactly what happened. The hiker fell about 300 meters down a steep outside slope. Her walking partner called 112 immediately. By the time the first responders arrived, about 45 minutes later, the Griffon Vultures had reduced the victim to bones and clothing. If you do not believe me Google "Griffon Vultures, Pyrenees, French hiker..." It was creepy when I heard it, which was before this incident.

When my walking companion shouted, I had my poncho hood up and cinched against the rain and snow, so I had "tunnel vision." My walking companion bailed out left - up the slope into the bushes. I, duh!? bailed out to the right... You guessed it...

Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to place my hand atop my Leki super-lightweight hiking pole. The pole literally bowed like a standard archery bow, but did not snap while holding all of my weight 115 kg plus all my gear. My mind sort of went blank at that point, but I regained composure on my knees at the edge of the path / dropoff. Several people were asking me if I was alright. I was, but it took a minute to get up, regain my composure, and start walking again.

The two spandex-covered mountain biking cyclists came out of nowhere and made no announcement, shout bell or horn, etc. One moment we were talking and admiring the scenery. The next instant I was looking at eternity... They disappeared as fast as they arrived with not a word exchanged as I recall...but my mind was a bit preoccupied at that moment.

It was not until two days later, as I was recounting this story to two fellow pilgrims from Ireland over a few pints, that my Kiwi walking companion told me that the first cyclist just blew by us without any reaction or sound. However, the second cyclist managed to dump his bike in the brush on the high-side and grab my rucksack straps as he was doing so, just before I went over the edge. During this, he said nothing.

I had no recollection of that happening. It must have been the adrenaline...or looking certain death in the eye. Anyway, my Guardian Angel was working overtime that day. I was grateful to the anonymous cyclist who likely saved my life and to the Leki pole which certainly saved my life. One of the first things I did on returning home in June was to by another set of Leki poles that are heavier duty and stiffer...

My point is that certain sections of the Camino Frances are more dangerous than others. Yes, on some sections there is not really enough room for both cyclists and walking pilgrims. Yes, something should be done about it. But WHAT? And by Who?

All walking pilgrims must take extra care. That said, and despite my near-death experience, I DO NOT sanction poles in spokes, etc.

IDEAS:

I DO however have constructive suggestions. This will likely not happen. But, I will put it out there anyway. One never knows...

1. For Walking Pilgrims:

Previously, I have suggested that locations issuing credentials to newly starting off pilgrims also issue them one or more trash pickup bags imprinted with the Camino association's logo. The stated purpose is to enable every credentialed pilgrim the means to collect trash along the Camino. If only half of the 200k or so pilgrims that walk the Camino Frances each year had one of these bags actually used it, there would be no trash along the Camino Frances - period. These would be the same bags previously handed out in supermarkets, but now mostly banned in the developed world.

For extra utility, I would obtain the bags in day-glo orange or yellow so they could easily be attached to a rucksack for added visibility when walking along roads in low visibility situations. I would recommend printing the organization logo on one side, perhaps with the sponsor who funded the bags - perhaps French or Spanish supermarket chains?

On the reverse side could be printed a map of the Camino with icons showing where full bags can be deposited in approved trash containers. I wonder if Eroski might not be interested in something like this as a promotional tie-in? They already do quite a lot to support the Camino. See (www.eroski.es). The Camino map could also indicate where they (the sponsor) have markets...just thinking out loud folks...trying to broker a "win-win" solution...it's what I do...

2. For Cycling Pilgrims:

My idea as regards cycling pilgrims is to to provide each intending pilgrim who indicates that he/she will be doing the Camino on a bicycle an inexpensive, plastic, brightly colored, whistle on a string. There are many promotional item vendors who can provide these things inexpensively when obtained in bulk, and imprinted with - say a scallop shell on one side and an association logo or name on the other. The whistle comes with a printed "rules of the shared road" attached on a tag.

True, not all cycling pilgrims will use this. But if even one life is saved, including mine, this is certainly worth the expense.

Okay, I relinquish my soap box for today...

Happy Christmas to all, and to all a nice day!

 

[William Marques]

If those guys were cycling back to Pamplona from the Alto de Perdon it is likely that they were local mountain bikers rather than pilgrim cyclists. I am not sure this forum or any other pilgrim organisation can help in these circumstances.

Thank God you are safe.

 

[David]

Good post, T2 - think you will find that they were local boy racers - custard pie gun might help, no other ideas.

Glad you didn't spin off into the void (though possibly not as glad as you were!!).

Your litter picking idea - I like that ... I don't know if forum members would be willing to join together and buy printed bags wholesale and leave them, with a note attached - or the reason printed onto them! - at various main pilgrim centres - St jean pilgrim office comes to mind ... but -

well ... I sell quite a few items in my www.pilgrimsupplies.org shop through the course of a year .. (money raised goes towards my first aid and pastoral care mission on the Camino). With everything I send out I always include a small packet of (European) flower seeds, to plant along the Camino - you never know, one day it might be a ribbon of flowers!

- adding a folded carrier bag wouldn't be a problem - so, had a quick look and I can buy plain yellow bags wholesale for about 4 to 6 pence or so each - printed are nearly 20 pence each unless one buys them 10,000 at a time!!

I will look into this - if the bags are ok for the price - well, I could include a yellow carrier bag / rubbish sack with everything I post, with a little printed note about the problem and the solution ...
Would be too expensive for me to have them printed - but - I do have two types of sellos here that I take with me when I go over - will see if the ink is indelible on carrier bag plastic - if not maybe I could get an ink that would work - then I could stamp them all over - or something like that .. will have a search around and see -

hhmm - tried my sellos - they come out tiny and blurred.... there again, maybe I could find a large scallop shell stamp

 

[Icacos]

Recently, I have become an intermittent lurker on this forum. I now see that those earlier posts that made mention of poking sticks in the wheels of errant cyclists (of which posts one was mine) are still upsetting some members.

At the risk of appearing to defend myself, I want to stress that I would never seriously entertain the idea of sticking my poles into the wheels of a passing cyclist. My post was no more than my musing in a moment of mischief. I thought I had indicated this by the addition of the emoticon . For what it is worth, I am also a cyclist.

I realized long ago, from subsequent posts, that others did not find humour in such idle musing. Those who have been involved in biking accidents, and particularly those who have lost friends to such accidents would naturally be offended. To these persons I apologize.