Unexpectedly feminist pilgrimage

[jayree]

https://www.salon.com/2024/01/20/my-unexpectedly-feminist-pilgrimage-walking-the-camino-de-santiago-and-the-freedom-i-found/

 

[TravellingMan22]

https://www.salon.com/2024/01/20/my-unexpectedly-feminist-pilgrimage-walking-the-camino-de-santiago-and-the-freedom-i-found/

Good article and thank you for sharing.

From a male standpoint, a reminder and more, that whilst females are of equal number on the Camino, the pre activity questions - how will your husband cope, what does your husband think of you going without him, still abound, seemingly asked in many cases by women as well as men. You got to work pretty hard to ask questions that offend both women and men as these ones do!!!

 

[Bradypus]

whilst females are of equal number on the Camino

Slightly more women than men last year - 53%. The gradual increase in the proportion of women walking has been quite noticeable over the years.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

From a male standpoint, a reminder and more, that whilst females are of equal number on the Camino, the pre activity questions - how will your husband cope, what does your husband think of you going without him, still abound, seemingly asked in many cases by women as well as men. You got to work pretty hard to ask questions that offend both women and men as these ones do!!!

After I got home from my first camino, my brother's father-in-law quipped "did you go to find a husband?". He seemed to be very impressed with himself in asking that question, but to me it felt so demeaning and infantilizing. I just walked 500 miles across Spain. And you think the ONLY reason in taking something like that on is that I want to be a wife?

I could say more about this article. It nails so many micro-aggressions we deal with that end up feeling like a million paper cuts. It's pervasive.

 

[Felice]

'Or perhaps — best of all — I would have drowned out his disappointment with an enthusiasm so boundless he would have packed his own backpack and set off to the road himself.'

That is a brilliant camino inspired response.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

One could add that the first half of the text is in fact not so unsimilar to what male future pilgrims often experience. This probably does not stem from being male or female, but from the inability of people to understand why one wants to do it. Why walk a camino. They do not know what it is like when the road is calling you. They are helpless, desperate to understand why anyone would go ... and so they start to make up reasons that would seem plausible to them.
For women they might anticipate problems with their relationships or them trying to find a man. For men it is often attributed to a sort of "midlife crisis", problems at the job or not being able to cope with pressure, "burnout". Very common assumptions and I have seen the victims being really disappointed and hurt because of that.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

'Or perhaps — best of all — I would have drowned out his disappointment with an enthusiasm so boundless he would have packed his own backpack and set off to the road himself.'

That is a brilliant camino inspired response.

When I quit my last job as an employee to take a break and do some "crazy" things, my that time boss said he wished he would be brave enough to do the same. ;-)

 

[NJohn]

Great article- thanks so much for sharing

 

[SeñorJacques]

"Every candy bar I grabbed for a late-morning snack tasted like something out of Willy Wonka’s factory. Every soda was the first soda I’ve ever sipped, the sugar straight from the cane plant, and with just enough bubbles to make me giggle. A one-euro glass of wine might as well have been from the most exclusive winery. The bread in the center of the table tasted like the clouds in the sky and the wheat along the trail had a great conversation."

These words about finding gratitude in simple things along the Camino really rang true to me. Wonderful article - thank you for sharing.

 

[J Willhaus]

Interesting article and so true that by the end you can almost shrug off some of the micro agressions--almost...

I think when I do things by choice, I tend not to mind the stereo type. I love to cook for example so I am fine accepting the abuela and/or mom cooking role and stereotype, especially on the Camino or as a volunteer hospitalera. I also like a bathroom that smells like cleaning products when I arrive at an albergue so I don't mind cleaning the bathrooms at the albergue which may be a stereotypical role.

Phil has his own things he loves (or basically gets stuck with the things I don't enjoy) when we are working together. Safety and security is his particular thing so I am more willing to let him take the lead on dealing with a drunk or closing up at night and making sure all are quiet at lights out.

If he thinks something seems unsafe, I tend to defer to his judgment as a criminal justice scholar and retired military and civilian police officer.

As a woman and a nurse, I have experienced my share of aggressions and microaggressions in the military, healthcare, and everyday life. Sometimes it is pointless to deal with them directly and I just let them go, but when I am able, I do my best to set the record straight as people will continue to say things they don't even realize are hurtful, inaccurate, and which make them look and sound racist, sexist, uneducated, and biased. I appreciate when someone calls me out with the intent to help me. I hope others feel the same when I try to help them.

We can go around being mad, hurt, or upset about it all the time or we can chose not to let others hold that kind of power over us.

Ok, too long and kind of a rant, but I am sitting in my hotel on a rainy day on San Diego watching Phil do his Spanish homework and wishing I was out walking by the ocean front...

 

[backpack45]

One could add that the first half of the text is in fact not so unsimilar to what male future pilgrims often experience. This probably does not stem from being male or female, but from the inability of people to understand why one wants to do it. Why walk a camino. They do not know what it is like when the road is calling you. They are helpless, desperate to understand why anyone would go ... and so they start to make up reasons that would seem plausible to them.
For women they might anticipate problems with their relationships or them trying to find a man. For men it is often attributed to a sort of "midlife crisis", problems at the job or not being able to cope with pressure, "burnout". Very common assumptions and I have seen the victims being really disappointed and hurt because of that.

I agree, some of the questions asked are asked of any hiker. My mother questioned why I was doing long distance hiking--to her, hiking or walking was something you did to get somewhere, not necessarily for fun. And historically, hiking or walking has not always been a choice made for pleasure, but because you didn't have the means to get someplace any other way.

 

[TravellingMan22]

On a more positive note as someone (and I say this through a male lens) who has spent much of the last four years in a backpacking envirornment mainly amongst younger people, and in the final years of my career working with younger people, it does feel that change is finally happening. I have yet to see or hear any comments about females travelling alone and anything that could remotely described as sexism. In fact seeing how young females travel the world alone and indeed the fact that it seems to be as commonplace as young men travelling alone is one of my stand out memories ( and I know it shouldn’t be) and the younger generations (men and women) just seem so much more progressive nowadays.

I know it not all done with bad intent. My mother, who is 90, stills feels the need to tell me if there is a female bus driver, especially if it’s a double decker. If she was to ever fly again, not sure what she would make of female pilots or mechanics,

But my eldest daughter is sick of it. She is a science teacher which seems to surprise a few people. Physics and Chemistry too, not Biology which shocks a few. Biology is about bodies so that could be for girls right! When she looks a bit a science magazine she often has to look in the ‘mens interest’ section!

 

[C clearly]

As a 75-year-old female engineer who loves to travel alone, this article is a yawn for me. Been there; done that; I refuse to wear the t-shirt.

I think when I do things by choice, I tend not to mind the stereo type.

This is very true!

 

[SabsP]

As a 75-year-old female engineer who loves to travel alone, this article is a yawn for me. Been there; done that; I refuse to wear the t-shirt.


This is very true!

I completely agree with you. I could not relate to this article at all.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

it does feel that change is finally happening.

@TravellingMan22 , I concur. Although it is often said that change is the only constant in this universe of ours.

Every Generation brings a change - some for the worse, some for the better.

As a teenager in high school my year was the very first generation to openly support gays. (Think pink triangles).Because it wasn't even talked about back then I didn't even know what the heck gay meant as a child. Now, my son has gay and transgender friends at school, neither of us even think twice about it. (Why should we?).

When my mother traveled the world 65 years ago she had, for the most part, a female companion. She did go to a few places as a solo female, but it was normally frowned upon.

When I first started travelling some 40 years ago, I met quite a number of Solo female travellers, but pairs were still the norm. 14 years into my travels, I met my wife, also a solo traveller.
A generation later again and my niece (19 at the time) was traveling by herself, and few thought anything of it.

I wonder if some of the attitudes are not just generational, but also cultural. For example in New Zealand if I heard of somebody going off traveling, I would ask if they were travelling with a companion or not. Regardless of gender. If the answer was they were going solo I would simply say good on you. You'll love it! And I think that would be true of most of my contemporaries. And as for asking a woman if she was going looking for a man - are you crazy ! (That would get you slapped for sure) Although ironically it is how many of us, myself included, have found our partners. Go figure.

But then we Kiwis love to travel. (Good job really, because even our closest neighbor is 1,500 km away at the shortest point. If we want to visit anywhere else we don't have a choice!). ALL of us are immigrants or the children of immigrants, And, with the exception of the Maori, no more than eight, perhaps nine generations. So for many, going to visit family means going overseas.

I wonder is it similar for my Aussie brethren? Australia is only about 50 years older than New Zealand, from a settlers point of view.

By the way, female science teachers have been around for a long time. My mother is a teacher, two of her female friends were science teachers. One of my science teachers when I was 15 years old was female. (Absolutely totally drop dead gorgeous. She married my other science teacher - one the girls all considered to be absolutely totally dropped dead gorgeous! )

But in another respect your daughter's stereotype holds true - my female teacher was my biology teacher..... .

As a 75-year-old female engineer who loves to travel alone, this article is a yawn for me. Been there; done that; I refuse to wear the t-shirt.

Respect. I bet when you first decided that's wanted you wanted to become you had to fight for it though. It's precisely because of people like you that other women no longer have to.

Regardless of all of this, I found it an interesting article.
If it makes someone think before making a stupid or insensitive remark clearly it's done it's job.
Especially if it helps someone else decide to walk the Camino. Alone.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I am significantly older than the writer… and yep, I’ve been through all that (and more — book-sellers barging into my campus office to flog their wares and asking when the professor would arrive — that was my first *15* years in the seat)… went to undergrad at a time when it was still thought to be something a young woman would do in order to marry “suitably”…

That I have passed through all this to the stage of life in which one becomes “invisible” (which I don’t mind really because physical attention from strangers, often men my father’s age was never something I wanted anyway)… but I’m not going to respond to the fact that the writer and I are in different life-stages by dismissing her observations. Indeed, I am distressed that she was meeting such biases almost 20 years after I had completed undergrad as this suggests that the world is just moving far too slowly (rather than trotting along to a world of zero prejudice or bias without meeting resistance). And I know from my own various caminos that all kinds of ridiculousness can still show up *en route* in an era that claims to be beyond sexism, racism, homophobia and other kinds of prejudices.

The reminders from those whose motivations are questioned, whose very presence may be erased or not welcome (thinking to our thread some weeks ago on racism and representation of diverse groups on Camino)… we need to pay attention, even when (perhaps especially when) it’s not reflective of our (current) experiences.

 

[Anamiri]

When I worked in Auckland, ran large marketing departments, and photo studios, and people heard I was heading off for another Camino, I would get comments of 'WOW', and 'you're really intrepid'. Maybe because I was a middle aged woman, and in their eyes didn't look capable of even imagining such a thing. Mostly I didn't tell people. Not particularly sexist, but ageist I think.
I now live in a rural area, where I'm part of a family known for their running and walking, and I get "didn't you already do that". So they assume its a bucket list thing, they're very capable and outdoorsy people around here, they wouldn't imagine other motives. I dont explain.

 

[Peterexpatkiwi]

When I worked in Auckland, ran large marketing departments, and photo studios, and people heard I was heading off for another Camino, I would get comments of 'WOW', and 'you're really intrepid'. Maybe because I was a middle aged woman, and in their eyes didn't look capable of even imaging such a thing. Mostly I didn't tell people. Not particularly sexist, but ageist I think.
I now live in a rural area, where I'm part of a family known for their running and walking, and I get "didn't you already do that". So they assume its a bucket list thing, they're very capable and outdoorsy people around here, they wouldn't imagine other motives. I dont explain.

You could well be right about all of the above. But could it be that the 'Intrepid' comments for example weren't aimed at age or gender, rather purely at the fact that you were heading off overseas to walk 800 kilometers? I think nothing of people going traveling, but walking 800 km - now that's something!
And as to the comments from your family / companions nowadays, perhaps they simply don't get why you constantly want to go back to the same country. To do what they probably think of as the same thing as you did last time. Rather like somebody going to Bali three years in a row. Personally I'd be like - what, again?

If you switched it up next year and said you were going to walk the PCT, now that might raise some eyebrows!

 

[Bradypus]

I would get comments of 'WOW', and 'you're really intrepid'. Maybe because I was a middle aged woman, and in their eyes didn't look capable of even imaging such a thing.

In 2017, at the age of 56, my wife travelled solo overland from the UK to visit family in Thailand and China. With side trips to Malaysia, Singapore, Korea and Japan. Including walking the Shikoku 88 temple pilgrimage in Japan. Then returned to the UK overland - again solo. Stopping on the way to visit internet contacts in Belarus and Finland.

 

[Sssnek]

Pretty much everyone’s first question when I told them I was walking the Camino in the fall was a version of, “are you doing it with someone?” This was almost immediately followed by a pause where they were clearly trying to decide how to ask if walking 500 miles as a solo female traveler was safe. I didn’t hold that against them, though.

The one that DID bug me was how many people speculated if I’d meet a guy in Spain. I was 23 and yes, finding a partner WAS on my radar, but it still bothered me for a few reasons. First of all: I’m bisexual, it totally could have been a woman. Second: It would be much easier to “find a man” if I just went to a bar at home instead of walking every day for over a month! I was sweaty and gross like 90% of the time! To me, that’s what crossed from casual inquiry to kinda sexist remark: if you need to stretch the reality that much to match my actions to a sexist stereotype, maybe don’t say it

As for the other stuff mentioned in this thread, I quit my job as a scientist right before the Camino because I got tired of the casual sexism there. But, as my older female coworkers would often tell me, it’s much better than it used to be because at least men aren’t groping us in the lab anymore

 

[trecile]

Pretty much everyone’s first question when I told them I was walking the Camino in the fall was a version of, “are you doing it with someone?” This was almost immediately followed by a pause where they were clearly trying to decide how to ask if walking 500 miles as a solo female traveler was safe. I didn’t hold that against them, though.

Yes, I got the same questions. And when I said that I was going alone people (mostly other women) tell me that I'm so brave to travel alone. It's not bravery at all. It's my preference. I don't want to have any obligations to another person while I'm on the Camino. I want to walk as far as I want to walk, start in the morning when I want to start, and eat where I want to eat without having to discuss it with someone else.

 

[J Willhaus]

Personally I find anyone striking out on a Camino (especially the first one) to be brave regardless of gender identity. It is usually way outside anyone's comfort zone, even if you are from Spain!

 

[VNwalking]

As a 75-year-old female engineer who loves to travel alone, this article is a yawn for me. Been there; done that; I refuse to wear the t-shirt.

I quit my job as a scientist right before the Camino because I got tired of the casual sexism there. But, as my older female coworkers would often tell me, it’s much better than it used to be because at least men aren’t groping us in the lab anymore

Same. I quit science for other reasons but would have been one of the ones saying that, @Sssnek. And where I have lived much of the last 20 years (in a different place and culture altogether) I've dealt with huge levels of gender inequality - but fortunately none of the sexual aggression. I'm not passive, but But have no interest at all in hanging onto whatever reactions come up about all that. It only multiplies the difficulty.

I see this attitude every day where I am and really resonate with the power of it:

We can go around being mad, hurt, or upset about it all the time or we can chose not to let others hold that kind of power over us.

It's in part generational, I think. The article just reminds me how much culture has changed. People are much more sensitive now than 20 or 30 years ago. Some would say too sensitive, but that's another topic altogether. And we are more independent than our mothers and grandmothers. I can't count the number of times that a Spanish abuela has asked with amazement if I'm not afraid to walk alone.

 

[Saint Mike II]

To the female pilgrims please excuse me when I say I gave up reading the blog half way through (time pressures I suspect). But I did click on the link to the interview with Emilio - it blew me away (yes it was back in 2020 I think) but I am waiting eagerly for the sequal? Just reinforces my determination to get to Porto in early September to start my next adventure (while my health lasts). Cheers and thanks to all who have contributed above. Might have to come back and slowly read both the blog and the posts.

 

[J Willhaus]

Same. I quit science for other reasons but would have been one of the ones saying that, @Sssnek. And where I have lived much of the last 20 years (in a different place and culture altogether) I've dealt with huge levels of gender inequality - but fortunately none of the sexual aggression. I'm not passive, but But have no interest at all in hanging onto whatever reactions come up about all that. It only multiplies the difficulty.

I see this attitude every day where I am and really resonate with the power of it:


It's in part generational, I think. The article just reminds me how much culture has changed. People are much more sensitive now than 20 or 30 years ago. Some would say too sensitive, but that's another topic altogether. And we are more independent than our mothers and grandmothers. I can't count the number of times that a Spanish abuela has asked with amazement if I'm not afraid to walk alone.

Ok, I thought it was just me thinking younger people are more sensitive.

Edited to remove some insensitive remarks on my part. Sorry all.

 

[Sssnek]

I'm not passive, but But have no interest at all in hanging onto whatever reactions come up about all that. It only multiplies the difficulty.

Yep! I get that. I got tired of being angry about it, so I left. If it hadn’t been affecting my coworkers so much too, it probably wouldn’t have bothered me as much

(That applies to the Camino comments too. Don’t actually mind that they were being said to me, but ffs don’t say them to the next woman please, ya know?)

I'm still recovering from the shock of 8 young women bursting into tears at intervals on our recent Camino

I burst into tears like four times on the Camino, but usually because of something really beautiful or moving! A pilgrim started singing Ave Maria in a tiny church on a hill outside of Pamplona and the pure EMOTION had me and several other people in tears. It’s an emotional trip!

The exception to that was I cried about the stray cats a couple times (I fostered kittens for years and seeing the suffering made me sad). I will totally accept that as an overreaction

 

[MinaKamina]

The one that DID bug me was how many people speculated if I’d meet a guy in Spain. I was 23 and yes, finding a partner WAS on my radar, but it still bothered me for a few reasons. First of all: I’m bisexual, it totally could have been a woman. Second: It would be much easier to “find a man” if I just went to a bar at home instead of walking every day for over a month! I was sweaty and gross like 90% of the time! To me, that’s what crossed from casual inquiry to kinda sexist remark: if you need to stretch the reality that much to match my actions to a sexist stereotype, maybe don’t say it

There are places of pilgrimage where one prays for healing, there are also those where one prays for finding a spouse. This used to be very common. No need to label it a sexist stereotype.

 

[J Willhaus]

I agree that people walk for many reasons. We cannot begin to know what is on the heart of another, but people do sometimes guess incorrectly.

 

[C clearly]

When my mother traveled the world 65 years ago she had, for the most part, a female companion.

People comment just as much now about me travelling alone as they did when I was a young woman. Most people still like to travel with a companion.

Respect. I bet when you first decided that's wanted you wanted to become you had to fight for it though. It's precisely because of people like you that other women no longer have to

You flatter me. The only thing I had to fight for was to pass the darn courses, same as my classmates did. I made a choice for practical reasons, and my career aspirations were distinctly modest, so I was not frustrated!

I cannot ever complain about being denied opportunities because of my sex/gender. I have been too fortunate with other factors such as good health, stable family, educational opportunities, intelligence, and being otherwise ordinary.

I hope I don't seem dismissive of the valid observations and experiences of many women. That just isn't my narrative.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Pretty much everyone’s first question when I told them I was walking the Camino in the fall was a version of, “are you doing it with someone?” This was almost immediately followed by a pause where they were clearly trying to decide how to ask if walking 500 miles as a solo female traveler was safe. I didn’t hold that against them, though.

I can assure you that every time I go on a Camino or any other kind of travel abroad I get the same question! ... and I am male and a seasoned hiker, done many lengthy expedition style solo hikes in the wild and wherever - still it happens all the time.
People just do not get it because they do not understand that anyone could consider it enjoyable to do such things on your own and they are so afraid of being responsible for yourself all on your own I suppose.
I could imagine this is more intense with women, but it is not restricted to women at all ;-)

 

[ShoshTrvls]

I took my first solo foreign trip in 1987, on an around-the-world ticket that took me through Japan, China, Thailand, India, Nepal, and Europe (which is when I first fell in love with Spain). All in all I’ve traveled to over 85 countries, mostly solo, although for a 20 or so year stretch, with my child starting when they were 2. (Yes, I did the “having and raising a kid” thing solo as well.). I’ve never thought of it as extraordinary, and for the most part neither have the people in my life.

 

[AlexHamilton]

After I got home from my first camino, my brother's father-in-law quipped "did you go to find a husband?". He seemed to be very impressed with himself in asking that question, but to me it felt so demeaning and infantilizing. I just walked 500 miles across Spain. And you think the ONLY reason in taking something like that on is that I want to be a wife?

I could say more about this article. It nails so many micro-aggressions we deal with that end up feeling like a million paper cuts. It's pervasive.

For centuries, Philosophy and Spiritual journeys have largely been the activities of men. Money and Time are a luxury that most women do not access. I think about my mother who grew up having to care for a husband, children and parents. She had little time to spend on herself and certainly not 41 days to walk the Camino. After this opportunity I am more indebted to her sacrifices that allowed me to make choices in my life that led me here.

 

[VNwalking]

The gratitude is beautiful. And...

For centuries, Philosophy and Spiritual journeys have largely been the activities of men. Money and Time are a luxury that most women do not access

Seriously?
Just off the top of my head a number of counter-examples come to mind.
Hildegard von Bingen 11th C;
All the Beguines,13th C onwards;
Julian of Norwitch, 14th C;
A bunch of saints -Teresa, Clare, Thérèse of Lisieux...etc...;
The women pilgrims in the Canterbury Tales;
Not to mention women in other spiritual traditions (eg, the many wonderful poems of Buddhist enlightened women, almost 2000 years before these examples...)

But yeah, women haven't had time for all that.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Money and Time are a luxury that most women do not access.

What century are we talking about here, Alex?

She had little time to spend on herself and certainly not 41 days to walk the Camino. After this opportunity I am more indebted to her sacrifices that allowed me to make choices in my life that led me here.

Men are grateful for women's sacrifices so they can lead their own lives. Women are grateful for other women who break barriers so they can live beyond societal expectations.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I think about my mother who grew up having to care for a husband, children and parents. She had little time to spend on herself and certainly not 41 days to walk the Camino.

This is very similar to my own mother's story, and that of all of her four sisters in their adult lives. Far more opportunities are available to women now than in prior generations, although true equality with men is still lacking in many instances, and most noticeably in other parts of the world.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

This is very similar to my own mother's story, and that of all of her four sisters in their adult lives. Far more opportunities are available to women now than in prior generations, although true equality with men is still lacking in many instances, and most noticeably in other parts of the world.

When I was 14, my parents divorced and I vividly recall going with my mother to buy a car. She had never done anything like that before -- she had gone from living with her parents to living with my father, who made all major decisions and controlled all expenses. Although a brilliant and very capable woman, she was terrified of making a mistake -- buying the wrong car, paying too much, getting tricked in some way. And, most of all, not being able to buy the car at all -- it was 1975, and it was only a year earlier that the law had changed to require companies to allow women to have credit in their own name.

This one experience had a profound effect on me. Right then and there, I knew that I'd capitalize on and be thankful for what my mother and other women of that era were learning how to do -- becoming independent people capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions. If I may have gone overboard (see above post), I'm OK with that. I have had an incredibly fulfilling life doing things that my mother was never able to do.

 

[David Tallan]

When I was 14, my parents divorced and I vividly recall going with my mother to buy a car. She had never done anything like that before -- she had gone from living with her parents to living with my father, who made all major decisions and control all expenses. Although a brilliant and very capable woman, she was terrified of making a mistake -- buying the wrong car, paying too much, getting tricked in some way. And, most of all, not being able to buy the car at all -- it was 1975, and it was only a year earlier that the law had changed to allow women to have credit in their own name.

My grandmother learned to drive when she was 63 years old, after her husband died.

On the other hand, she hadn't let that lack of a drivers license hold her in one place. We still tell the stories of when she set out in her early 20s with her girl friend hitchhiking across the continent.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

My mother never learned to drive a car, nor ride a bike, and the only travel she did was when my dad drove her and us kids on a yearly trip to visit her sisters 200 miles away...I called it a "vacation" and meant it.
OTOH, my mom was a wonderful housekeeper, cook, baker, decorator, sewer, crafter, and made us five kids feel loved.

 

[Katykay]

When I was 14, my parents divorced and I vividly recall going with my mother to buy a car. She had never done anything like that before -- she had gone from living with her parents to living with my father, who made all major decisions and controlled all expenses. Although a brilliant and very capable woman, she was terrified of making a mistake -- buying the wrong car, paying too much, getting tricked in some way. And, most of all, not being able to buy the car at all -- it was 1975, and it was only a year earlier that the law had changed to allow women to have credit in their own name.

This one experience had a profound effect on me. Right then and there, I knew that I'd capitalize on and be thankful for what my mother and other women of that era were learning how to do -- becoming independent people capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions. If I may have gone overboard (see above post), I'm OK with that. I have had an incredibly fulfilling life doing things that my mother was never able to do.

Yes, yes, yes. I am so grateful for the same. I take my mother with me on all my journeys. She died young and my life is all about taking advantage of the opportunities she didn’t have not just because she was unwell but because of societal expectations of her role and laws. It usually took a financially independent and/or very brave woman to step outside those expectations if it was possible. I’ve seen many things on my journeys and it appears to me that a majority of women in this world continue to struggle with poverty and gender-based expectations of their ‘place’ and role.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

What century are we talking about here, Alex?

If we stop thinking only of the wealthiest women in the wealthiest nations (who are not at all representative of the global population), I would place the observation in the immediate tense. Do the poorest women of the world want to go on pilgrimages? Long explorations? We don’t know; they haven’t even been allowed to get out of primary school before they’ve been are are being put into the “service“ of the economic needs of the adults around them, and married off as soon as possible.

 

[ShoshTrvls]

Yes, yes, yes. I am so grateful for the same. I take my mother with me on all my journeys.

I took my mother on my Camino journey as well.

 

[WGroleau]

But my eldest daughter is sick of it. She is a science teacher which seems to surprise a few people. Physics and Chemistry too, not Biology which shocks a few. Biology is about bodies so that could be for girls right! When she looks a bit a science magazine she often has to look in the ‘mens interest’ section!

Is a “science” magazine that distinguishes “men’s interest” from “women’s interest” even worth looking at?

 

[TravellingMan22]

Is a “science” magazine that distinguishes “men’s interest” from “women’s interest” even worth looking at?

I don’t think the magazine (circulation 8k per month) decides where the product is displayed in business with a turnover > £5 billion per annum!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Is a “science” magazine that distinguishes “men’s interest” from “women’s interest” even worth looking at?

Science magazines of that kind (e.g. not peer reviewed journals where you submit your articles as a scientist) are not science but only meant for entertainment.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Science magazines of that kind (e.g. not peer reviewed journals where you submit your articles as a scientist) are not science but only meant for entertainment.

Sorry I don’t understand. I am talking about a top level science magazine- peer reviewed by top scientists. But no way would they ever have the clout to dictate their shelf positioning in a big turnover street newsagent!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Sorry I don’t understand. I am talking about a top level science magazine- peer reviewed by top scientists. But no way would they ever have the clout to dictate their shelf positioning in a big turnover street newsagent!

And they have gender specific sections?? I know that Nature and Science already a decade ago started becoming a bit ... ordinary. But that is something hard to imagine. Or something I do not want to imagine.

 

[TravellingMan22]

And they have gender specific sections?? I know that Nature and Science already a decade ago started becoming a bit ... ordinary. But that is something hard to imagine. Or something I do not want to imagine.

It’s the way the shop sets up! Not at the behest of the Magazine. Yea it sounds mad but it happens!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

It’s the way the shop sets up! Not at the behest of the Magazine. Yea it sounds mad but it happens!

Still those are not the workhorse publications, but those who go for sensationalism. But sad nevertheless. Maybe it is good that I left science a good while ago.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Still those are not the workhorse publications, but those who go for sensationalism. But sad nevertheless. Maybe it is good that I left science a good while ago.

My daughter seems happy and she doesn’t stand any nonsense. But yes the gossip mags ( mthe big sellers) get the prime positions! Where are you in the Artic btw?

 

[Arctic_Alex]

My daughter seems happy and she doesn’t stand any nonsense. But yes the gossip mags ( mthe big sellers) get the prime positions! Where are you in the Artic btw?

Northern Sweden would that be.

 

[TravellingMan22]

Cool. Was in Abisko and Narvik last European summer and hoping to get futher north this summer!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

Cool. Was in Abisko and Narvik last European summer and hoping to get futher north this summer!

i have friends near Abisko. Just 3 hrs drive from here.

 

[David Tallan]

And they have gender specific sections?? I know that Nature and Science already a decade ago started becoming a bit ... ordinary. But that is something hard to imagine. Or something I do not want to imagine.

I don't think TravellingMan22 is saying that the science magazine has "men's interest" and "women's interest" sections but rather that the shops where it is sold have such sections, and that the science magazines his daughter is interested in are sold in a section of the shop that indicates they aren't considered of interest to women. Frankly, I'm less surprised by the placement of such magazines within the shop than that they can be found there at all. My experience with the high prestige, peer reviewed journals is that they are rarely found in newsstands and usually only accessible through a university library. But I wasn't studying science. I guess peer reviewed medieval studies journals are a bit more niche.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

I don't think TravellingMan22 is saying that the science magazine has "men's interest" and "women's interest" sections but rather that the shops where it is sold have such sections, and that the science magazines his daughter is interested in are sold in a section of the shop that indicates they aren't considered of interest to women. Frankly, I'm less surprised by the placement of such magazines within the shop than that they can be found there at all. My experience with the high prestige, peer reviewed journals is that they are rarely found in newsstands and usually only accessible through a university library. But I wasn't studying science. I guess peer reviewed medieval studies journals are a bit more niche.

Thanks for clarification. I was so shocked by the possibility of a discrimination by gender that i did not read fully ... .. also I am in the middle of a snow storm so I am distracted.

 

[C clearly]

When she looks a bit a science magazine she often has to look in the ‘mens interest’ section!

I think there is a typo error in your post, or something incomplete, which is causing some of the confusion. What do you mean when you wrote "When she looks a bit a science magazine"?

 

[TravellingMan22]

Thanks for clarification. I was so shocked by the possibility of a discrimination by gender that i did not read fully ... .. also I am in the middle of a snow storm so I am distracted.

Ooh sorry! Totally my fault!! I totally missed the point and the typo made it worse. David thanks for the mopping up whilst I slept.

I used to follow an account on ‘X’.. I think it was called ‘everyday sexism’ that would point out the small and subtle stuff like the one my daughter mentioned. Stuff like messaging on clothes - ‘be kind’ on the girls t shirts, and action images on the boy and so on! It was interesting and I learnt a fair bit! Remember once a major high street brand brought out an aviation range depicting boys as pilots and girls as cabin crew which caused a bit not a fuss. No longer on X as sadly when the person points the stuff out the replies are not very heartening!

 

[ShoshTrvls]

the small and subtle stuff like the one my daughter mentioned. Stuff like messaging on clothes - ‘be kind’ on the girls t shirts, and action images on the boy and so on! It was interesting and I learnt a fair bit! Remember once a major high street brand brought out an aviation range depicting boys as pilots and girls as cabin crew which caused a bit not a fuss. No longer on X as sadly when the person points the stuff out the replies are not very heartening!

What I notice all the time is that equipment reviews* in general circulation magazines always, without fail, have (a) the men's equipment reviewed first and (b) more pages/space devoted to men's equipment.

*e.g. skis, backpacks, running shoes, etc.

 

[Arctic_Alex]

What I notice all the time is that equipment reviews* in general circulation magazines always, without fail, have (a) the men's equipment reviewed first and (b) more pages/space devoted to men's equipment.

*e.g. skis, backpacks, running shoes, etc.

I must live in a different world (which could actually be the case with respect to geography and culture), as I never saw these things attributed to men only, not in magazines/catalogues. It is more like heaps of equipment presented gender neutral, except when it comes to real anatomical differences ... and colours in clothing. Here in Sweden, all advertising for outdoor activities and all you need for it always strongly addresses men and women alike.
The only annoyance is colours in clothing. Females that prefer natural colours that do not hurt the eye mostly have to stick to the hunting clothes section as "normal outdoor" is flooded with strange colour schemes supposedly more fitting for women. Is that sexism? Maybe. Is that only the industry serving female taste in colours? Maybe. I really do not know. In any case I think most outdoor clothing for women hurts my eyes and I know many women that think like me.

 

[SabsP]

I must live in a different world (which could actually be the case with respect to geography and culture), as I never saw these things attributed to men only, not in magazines/catalogues. It is more like heaps of equipment presented gender neutral, except when it comes to real anatomical differences ... and colours in clothing. Here in Sweden, all advertising for outdoor activities and all you need for it always strongly addresses men and women alike.
The only annoyance is colours in clothing. Females that prefer natural colours that do not hurt the eye mostly have to stick to the hunting clothes section as "normal outdoor" is flooded with strange colour schemes supposedly more fitting for women. Is that sexism? Maybe. Is that only the industry serving female taste in colours? Maybe. I really do not know. In any case I think most outdoor clothing for women hurts my eyes and I know many women that think like me.

You understand now why I love the Woolpower brand! Unisex sizes and not much to choose in terms of colours!

 

[Arctic_Alex]

You understand now why I love the Woolpower brand! Unisex sizes and not much to choose in terms of colours!

 

[alhartman]

Love this thread!! It is so much like so many of the albergue dinner conversations. Meaty, informative, and lots of respect and empathy.

 

[dreaming]

I too find this article a yawn perhaps because I am 69 year old female.My mother took me to a new school for sixth form to be told by the Head Master that I didn't need to complete sixth form to be a nurse. I went on to complete multiple degrees. The Bank didn't want to give me a housing loan when I divorced despite the fact that I was paying the original one entirely. I have travelled for 45 years backpacking alone and loving it. I would return to the hospital where I worked to work with extremely capable female doctors, nurses, paramedics and ancillary staff. Now I think I could write an article on how people can disregard my being as a senior person. I only had that happen once on a recent camino which I think is pretty good. Is it an age thing?

 

[KiwiJohn]

What century are we talking about here, Alex?



Men are grateful for women's sacrifices so they can lead their own lives. Women are grateful for other women who break barriers so they can live beyond societal expectations.

I, for one, will be eternally grateful that I married a strong woman. I, have grown as a person throughout the years and as an equally strong couple we have managed to raise two wonderful, strong daughters, who are as early twenty year-old's, forging their own path.