Dull, boring, urban and sketchy (sketchy?)

[dougfitz]

So they defend the platform as innocent, because that's their only experience of it.

The platform is innocent. The people who use it: clearly not all of them are.

 

[dougfitz]

Yes - but when you started the thread - should be your choice to delete the thread if you feel it isn't going the way you intended.

I cannot think of anywhere, other than perhaps when you might be gaslighting someone, that you get the privilige of directing where a conversation goes. Sure, you might leave it, but what has been said is in front of the other participants, warts and all.

Sorry, I forgot about bureaucratic minute taking and writing war histories. Both areas where authors seem to have remarkable leeway over what might be recorded as 'the facts of the matter'.

 

[J Willhaus]

Only 16km per day? We will have to disagree on that one. I'd be bored rigid with all those hours left to fill. Each to their own!

Agree that you would leave me in the dust...

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Agree that you would leave me in the dust...

And me!

 

[trecile]

An understandable perspective; however, a perfect Camino would be its death knoll. Preferable is a Camino that reflects life as it realistically is--full of suffering.

Yes, there is too much suffering in the world, but I have never suffered on the Camino, not even while walking into and out of León, or any of the industrial parts. I choose to appreciate all the different landscapes that I walk through instead of choosing to suffer. There's enough real suffering in the world and there's no need for me to add to it.

 

[TheBigT]

I think due to various books and advertising there are more and more people who have questions about shipping their packs, sleeping only in hotels, and skipping some Camino sections. It isn't a crime. I just happen like carrying my own pack, staying in albergues, and walking the whole way so it seems odd at times that someone would not have my same viewpoint.

In answer, my perfect Camino would be staying where we prepared a communal meal together each night, had a Pilgrim Mass with blessing, and only walked 10 miles (16 km) each day. May it be so!

You sir, are my brother from a different mother....

 

[tpmchugh]

OK, so, well here we go. I’ve been seeing, and sometimes responding to, lots (it seems) of posts about, essentially, which bits of Camino to avoid. Urban bits; steep bits; roadside bits; bits where the cafés don’t get good reviews; industrial bits ( though apparently that bit on the Invierno where the Romans totally trashed an entire mountain is cool); bits where there might be more pilgrims than is desirable; bits where holiday makers soak up to much of the accommodation….

So, I think it’s time we put our heads together and helped Tourismo Galicia, and everyone who needs one, construct the perfect Camino. Not too long, attractive landscapes, comfortable accommodations supplying exquisite food and, essentially, no unpleasant bits. No grumpy Tinkers; no tired Hospitaler@; no chewy Lomo with soggy chips…

I’m not sure I have a question but if I did it would probably be “Que?”.

The mesetta is boring some say, I love it, The paramo before Villar de Mazarife is another. I love it all with one exception. As some will already know, the walk out of Leon even though I have walked it, is not my cup of tea. In fact people will be horrified but I don't like Leon. Maybe because its one city I was always on my own with no walking companion. Love Burgos. So the perfect camino to me is the Frances as it is. Sure if there were no hard or boring bits and everything was hunky dorey and easy to do it wouldn't be worth doing. We could just fly to Santiago, visit the tomb and pray then fly home again.

 

[Philtration]

Whenever I get to one of those urban areas or other distasteful settings, I just pull the curtains on my sedan chair and have my bearers double step until we're through it. And I assume everyone takes along their own caterer. How else could one survive it??

 

[Kirkie]

Well. That sparked some interesting debate. It never was, never is, my intention to slight or denigrate any individual who comes to this forum. It was, and always, is my intention to highlight issues that I feel are pertinent to the Camino and all its ways. And to challenge in such ways as I can that which I perceive as the increasing disneyvacation (nasty little portmanteau) of Camino. The thousand roads to Santiago offer myriad opportunity for adventure and learning (and lomo) and, surely, for a little challenge and discomfort. None of which need be avoided.

And now for the prizegiving:View attachment 144181

I say thank you, for the gesture in responding.
And the cartoon.
And I believe you.

 

[Rita Flower]

I assume this is partly in response to my post about taking a taxi out of Porto -

Oh don’t take it personally - it’s not about you. I took a train out of Porto and his OP (original post?) made me laugh so much. I don’t think this is about necessary taxi, train or bus rides but more about wanting avoiding discomfort and only wanting the ‘good bits’. Which is all subjective- after all one pilgrims mesita heaven is another’s boring hell.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Which is all subjective- after all one pilgrims mesita heaven is another’s boring hell.

 

[Rita Flower]

I’m not taking it personal. I just find it so rude that people make post like this or make comments on peoples post when they just have questions. The Camino is a new thing for a lot of people and questions are valid yet some people on this forum judge for not doing things the way they did it.

The Camino was new for everyone once.
It might just be that some of us were new a long time ago before forums and FB.
We purchased a guide book - or in my case had three pages out of the Lonely Planet Great Walks of the World - some how got to SJPP (me from Australia) with probably an overloaded pack ( me again) and worked it out as we went.
That doesn’t preclude anyone from walking as needed.
I think the OP was more about thinking we can / or wanting to avoid everything we think we don’t like.
That’s not going to work in any part of life, not just the Camino.

 

[good_old_shoes]

On my perfect Camino there would be an albergue that allows camping in their garden each night, and with a fully functioning kitchen or a communal dinner.

A wine fountain next to each water fountain of course, a beer fountain would be okay, too, I'm still flexible after all, as a true pilgrim.

No bed bugs, I'd be happy to share a room with all the snorers, 100-times-per-night-to-the-toilet-pilgrims and with the early risers that switch on the full light at 4am, if just there are no bed bugs for sure.

And no lightning storms, please. I'm happy with 40degress C heat waves and weeks of rain, just no lightning please.

I'll take a disgusting and cheap truck stop coffee in an industrial area any time, as long as there's coffee or something that somewhat resembles it.

All in all, the perfect Camino is any Camino, though. I'd take any version right now, with bed bugs, without coffee, without beds or campsites or toilets, and even with daily lightning storms that frighten me to death. Hell, I'd even ship my bag if I had to!

But just one more, please?

 

[C clearly]

No bed bugs, I'd be happy to share a room with all the snorers, 100-times-per-night-to-the-toilet-pilgrims and with the early risers that switch on the full light at 4am, if just there are no bed bugs for sure.

This might be the #1 improvement I'd like to see. I do not see any downside in eliminating bedbugs from the camino.

 

[J Willhaus]

This might be the #1 improvement I'd like to see. I do not see any downside in eliminating bedbugs from the camino.

It would also be a lot less work for Phil and me, when we are examining with a headlamp and steaming the cracks and crevices with an industrial steamer trying to make sure they haven't taken up residence!

 

[Bradypus]

It would also be a lot less work for Phil and me, when we are examining with a headlamp and steaming the cracks and crevices with an industrial steamer trying to make sure they haven't taken up residence!

Is this a service you give to every pilgrim on arrival?

 

[Geoff Shepherd]

The river route into Burgos is very nice.

 

[MesaWalker]

Well. That sparked some interesting debate. It never was, never is, my intention to slight or denigrate any individual who comes to this forum. It was, and always, is my intention to highlight issues that I feel are pertinent to the Camino and all its ways. And to challenge in such ways as I can that which I perceive as the increasing disneyvacation (nasty little portmanteau) of Camino. The thousand roads to Santiago offer myriad opportunity for adventure and learning (and lomo) and, surely, for a little challenge and discomfort. None of which need be avoided.

And now for the prizegiving:View attachment 144181

With respect to the cartoon, as an an accordion player, I resemble that remark!

 

[Colleen Kathma]

OK, so, well here we go. I’ve been seeing, and sometimes responding to, lots (it seems) of posts about, essentially, which bits of Camino to avoid. Urban bits; steep bits; roadside bits; bits where the cafés don’t get good reviews; industrial bits ( though apparently that bit on the Invierno where the Romans totally trashed an entire mountain is cool); bits where there might be more pilgrims than is desirable; bits where holiday makers soak up to much of the accommodation….

So, I think it’s time we put our heads together and helped Tourismo Galicia, and everyone who needs one, construct the perfect Camino. Not too long, attractive landscapes, comfortable accommodations supplying exquisite food and, essentially, no unpleasant bits. No grumpy Tinkers; no tired Hospitaler@; no chewy Lomo with soggy chips…

I’m not sure I have a question but if I did it would probably be “Que?”.

Ah, but no ups and downs, no grumps n gripes, no 'crowds', no having to walk out of one's way n more 'inconveniences' along with the beauty, kindness, friendliness and generosity of it all. Would this be a real Camino? Would this be a true Pilgrimage?

 

[Curly Cath]

I think due to various books and advertising there are more and more people who have questions about shipping their packs, sleeping only in hotels, and skipping some Camino sections. It isn't a crime. I just happen like carrying my own pack, staying in albergues, and walking the whole way so it seems odd at times that someone would not have my same viewpoint.

In answer, my perfect Camino would be staying where we prepared a communal meal together each night, had a Pilgrim Mass with blessing, and only walked 10 miles (16 km) each day. May it be so!

So much love for this post!
My favourite find last year was the parish hostel in bercianos with a communal meal and washing up, a walk to watch the sunset and a little ceremony for everyone.

 

[Dem]

If my walking mate and I had not walked through ~ and indeed stayed in ~ Villadongos del Paramo ~ essentially a truck stop ~ we would not have met our best buddies on the Camino ~ everyone's Camino is different; for me, the most memorable and profound aspects of the walk were not always the scenery ~

 

[VNwalking]

essentially a truck stop

The perfect camino would definitely have truck stops. This is where much better food is to be had than the cheap stuff they serve in pilfrims' ghettos.

 

[AidaYYC]

I assume this is partly in response to my post about taking a taxi out of Porto - keep in mind that not all pilgrims have the luxury of time. When on a restricted schedule maybe it makes sense to skip a section? You don’t have to be rude about it. I swear people who wax on about the spirit of the Camino end up being the most judgmental

Have you thought that your assumption may be wrong(?) Each person does his/her own Camino.

 

[mike105]

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I never feel shamed or put down or offended by posts because I think those are feelings I decide to have because it was my choice to read the thread. Since it seems those feelings are unpleasant, I choice to avoid them. I am responsible for every post I choose to read. I can stop any time I want. The value of free speech is paramount, so my feeling would be irrelevant. Post anything you want,I'll choose to read what I want...

 

[lt56ny]

I assume this is partly in response to my post about taking a taxi out of Porto - keep in mind that not all pilgrims have the luxury of time. When on a restricted schedule maybe it makes sense to skip a section? You don’t have to be rude about it. I swear people who wax on about the spirit of the Camino end up being the most judgmental

What you have written is also a judgement. You are judging that Tinker was passing a negative thought when it could have been just humor as he often does and judging and assuming that he was thinking of your post when there have been hundreds of not thousands of posts asking where and when and what to skip. We all have our own opinions and humor. And remember why the great Felix Unger said about assuming!!!!’

 

[goldie from aus]

The perfect camino would definitely have truck stops. This is where much better food is to be had than the cheap stuff they serve in pilfrims' ghettos.

Oh, my goodness – the truckies big breakie is legendary in Australia; with a bottomless cup, keeps you going all day.

 

[chinacat]

Is this a service you give to every pilgrim on arrival?

Thank you for the belly laugh!!!

 

[Peregrinopaul]

OK, so, well here we go. I’ve been seeing, and sometimes responding to, lots (it seems) of posts about, essentially, which bits of Camino to avoid. Urban bits; steep bits; roadside bits; bits where the cafés don’t get good reviews; industrial bits...

OK, getting away from the mildly (?) controversial, I think your post has touched on an issue which actually does really concern me. Those of us who plan our camino, a process which is usually needed to connect with long distance return flights, immediately run into a problem which is perhaps unique to the Camino Francés from St Jean because of the sheer numbers of pilgrims. I’m in the process of doing that right now. Unusually, I have more time available on this particular camino.

Day 1, St Jean to... well where? I’m somewhat nervous about that hill. So, if I feel unable to do it in one day, I can always stop at Orisson or Borda, right? Well, no. Better book. Oh dear! Too late!

This is the start of a slippery slope. What about Roncesvalles, or Burguete, or Espinal, or Zubiri? And so on. Where do you stop this? Most advice on the forum suggests Pamplona. But what about Zariquiegi, (or Uterga), Los Arcos? Before I know it I’m devising a fool-proof itinerary, which if I am not careful, will take me all the way to Santiago. I have even found myself ruminating about missing Leon altogether. Not because it’s a “boring” bit, but because I’d prefer to avoid the traffic congestion on my bike. I can, after all, detour south of the city.

My original thought was to give myself plenty of time, arrive in St Jean, and then “wing it” like I’ve always done on the VdlP, keeping an eye on my progress as I go along. And now look what’s happened. If I’m not careful, I’ll have a camino with no spontaneity or happenstance. Sure, I’ll have a bed every night, and maybe a cafe bar on the corner, but..

 

[Kirkie]

Maybe if we all used Latin, nobody would have the edge on language in the forum...

‘For clarity of thought, Latin is second to no other’​

Luke Nicholas, who sat his Leaving Cert last year, is asked all the time why he chose to study Latin ahead of more modern languages.
“Latin was a big part of Irish education for a long time, but is now more or less gone,” says Nicholas, who attended Glenstal Abbey.
“When I was 12 and just starting in Glenstal, my parents spoke to me about studying Latin. There were only seven of us in the class and, by second year, just four.”
He ended us loving the language, he says, because it offered something different to everything else.
“When I studied it, it was very analytical. You need to be very precise and to understand what each word means in its context,” he says.
“And because everything in Latin is a text that has survived for 1,000 years or more, it is all historic, poetic or philosophical, containing a complicated set of ideas that cannot be watered down to easy format.
“For clarity of thought, Latin is second to no other language.”
It certainly worked out for him in the end. Nicolas, a student of Fr Dillon, ended up securing nine H1s in his Leaving Cert, equalling the national record.
On top of that, he secured the highest Leaving Cert Latin result in Ireland, for which he won the Classical Association of Ireland’s 2022 president’s medal.
Nicholas is now studying English literature at Cambridge University.
IRISH TIMES newspaper article

 

[Corned Beef]

This is quite an amusing thread when viewed in the light of the history of pilgrimage and the "Iter pro peregrinis ad Compostellam" - the Pilgrim's Guide, written in the mid-12th century.

Complaints are both universal and timeless such as:

Gascony. Garrulous, loathsome, lascivious, poorly-dressed, greedy drunks. Skilled warriors, good hospitality to the poor. All drink from one cup, then sprawl out together on rotten straw. White bread and the best and reddest wine. Forests, streams, meadows and healthy fountains.

The Basque Country. Forest savages whose hard faces and strange language strike terror into the heart. They come at pilgrims with weapons, demand an exorbitant fee and beat those who refuse.

I won't repeat what was said about the inhabitants of Navarre which is pretty brutal but you can look it up.

 

[Kathor1]

Complaints are both universal and timeless such as:

I beg to differ: Racial and ethnic stereotyping and associated complaints such as the one in the quotes from the nowadays widely known medieval “”pilgrim”” guide were good manners and “in” in the 11th and 12th century. We don’t do this anymore. We stereotype and complain about our fellow pilgrims. And if we mention their nationality a moderator will come to the rescue and edit it out … .

 

[Skinnybiker]

No one else has said it, which surprised me - "on the perfect camino there would be no bikes" - does that mean us bicigrinos are absolved? If so so gracias a todos. Richard el ciclista flaco.

 

[Former member 59618]

Whenever I get to one of those urban areas or other distasteful settings, I just pull the curtains on my sedan chair and have my bearers double step until we're through it. And I assume everyone takes along their own caterer. How else could one survive it??

I have a ladies maid, just like downton abbey.

 

[Former member 59618]

No one else has said it, which surprised me - "on the perfect camino there would be no bikes" - does that mean us bicigrinos are absolved? If so so gracias a todos. Richard el ciclista flaco.

I love the bicigrinos. They always give me a “hola Buen Camino!” as they breeze past me.

 

[VNwalking]

does that mean us bicigrinos are absolved? If so so gracias a todos. Richard el ciclista flaco.

love the bicigrinos. They always give me a “hola Buen Camino!” as they breeze past me.

Me too. When I've had bad interacions with people on bikes, it's usually been local mountain bike clubs out for a training ride..

 

[WalkinRon]

I always heard the bicycles coming... But I would time my reaction...
I'd wait... wait...
Just as they're probably thinking: "something's in the way" and "oh! he's old! and slow!!"
I'd turn around smiling and waiving with: "BUEN CAMINO!!!"
I usually got, in return, a hearty: "IGUALMENTE!"

 

[SFHoneybee]

ditto on Saria to Santiago...But I loved the Astorga to Sarria section...loved it.

Hi-
How was your experience on Sarria to Santiago?- that’s the route I’m going.. I guess it’s very crowded these days-I’m not traveling until Mid-October… I’m hoping then—that it will be more the Classic Camino experience— albergues, few happy ppl and not much rain.. ideas?- thx!

 

[ElCee]

The concern, however expressed, is that those who seek only the bits they think best will miss the best.

The Best is in the eye of the beholder. No matter what route we take, how much we carry and where we sleep, we will all have our very own best and worst bits.
I’m walking my first Camino and am very likely over planning. I hope to do another some day all footloose and fancy free like the rest of you but for now this is where I am.

 

[C clearly]

I suspect that the OP was addressing some fundamental issues, in a rather obtuse way, that many of us have been considering. Let's get back to the substance...

On the forum we are getting more and more travel-agency questions - e.g. how to plan a Camino trip like a customized self-guided tour of a cultural icon.

I do quite a bit of research for my own Caminos because I like to dive deep into the topic. I post lots on the forum because I enjoy the community that has developed around this common interest. It is about a lot more than the travel details or the perfection of my plan.

People should be able to take the trips that they want, and lots of good assistance is provided here. However, this is not a travel-planning-service forum. It is an internet discussion forum focused on helping pilgrims on the pilgrimage to Santiago. Members offer unsolicited and unexpected commentary and advice about the Camino, along with travel details. Usually, the additional comments are well received, but other times, the recipient feels "judged" or criticized because something in their original idea was not unconditionally endorsed.

How can we, as active forum members, handle this?
Are we obliged to answer questions without challenging the assumptions? Should we withhold our opinions in order not to hurt delicate feelings? Should we ignore questions that we could answer but our answers will lead to accusations of being judgemental and elitist?

 

[J Willhaus]

No, I think we share our opinions, but do it in a way that lets people know it is an opinion. Saying it with a "this works for me..." or " just my opinion..." may sound less harsh than "true pilgrims don't do that..."

Sometimes we do have to draw a line--"please don't wear your dirty day shoes in the albergue" or "I'm sorry, this albergue does not accept pilgrims who are not carrying their own pack."

 

[henrythedog]

How can we, as active forum members, handle this?

An excellent question.

I fully support the ‘house style’ of civility on here; and am the first to confess that I do stray over the boundary from time to time; but I’d probably take myself elsewhere if I felt pressure to self-censor to the extent that I couldn’t express a rational opinion. (In the event that I ever have one).

Recently I made an apparently waspish comment on a proposed two day ‘on camino’; which I still find it hard to reconcile; but I did say that it was ‘my problem’. It was moderated with tact and diplomacy as always.

If my vocabulary was better I could come up with something more apt than ‘snowflake’.

A range of opinions is welcome; but the primary focus of the forum is well known and if we should try to confine ourselves to ‘Camino’, then we probably need a more universally-accepted house-definition of what that is. ‘It’s your Camino’ doesn’t cut it for me I’m afraid.

 

[C clearly]

A number of posts have been deleted, as we don't really want personal comments (especially in third person) about a forum member.

If the thread cannot turn to more constructive discussion, it will be closed.

 

[dbier]

Back to C Clearly's point, which I thought quite good...
...why do repeat posters (myself included) post here?

I suspect some of us want to sit down with some of the questioners and ask, "Have you thought about why you're going? Your posts read as if you want to work with Rick Steves's travel planners, and control everything that happens. There's so much more to consider here...so much more that you could learn and experience, about yourself and about others. Don't limit yourself. "

I have read very judgmental comments on here in the past, most recently when someone had the courage to admit that they stopped their Camino, and why. It does happen, though i didn't find the OP's comment in that vein. I have never assumed a criticism to be personal, but a fear reaction on the part of the poster.

So, BL? To all the readers. Make what accommodations you must to come, but don't want to control everything that you see and do. Be open to the unexpected.

 

[Rick M]

How can we, as active forum members, handle this?
Are we obliged to answer questions without challenging the assumptions? Should we withhold our opinions in order not to hurt delicate feelings? Should we ignore questions that we could answer but our answers will lead to accusations of being judgemental and elitist?

I think you nailed pretty well here with your full post. As Frank Zappa would have put it, the last bit is the crux of the biscuit.

Those of us that hang around here and offer advice each make their own choice. Mine is to respond to those who seem to be seeking pilgrimage, and ignore those who are looking for a tour guide. I'll be the first to admit that I cannot perfectly discern between the two. I don't have to, mine is a gift offered freely to those I choose - I feel no obligation whatsoever to take all comers out of some sense of fairness.

We all know what Tinca is talking about. He just had his Popeye moment in public. There will always be those who arrive at this forum to seek pilgrimage, those who want to witness pilgrimage, and those who haven't really thought about it much. As anyone who runs a service bureau dealing with the public knows, you can't teach a queue. The same questions get asked over and over again. People get in the wrong lines, and don't have their forms filled out, Thats OK, its why we put up signs and have FAQs on websites.

As mods, you need to ask yourselves is this is really a problem that needs solving? There are ways to address sorting the queue, but why should you? What would force you to take that step? For all I know, the community that wants to turn this into TripAdvisor is sufficiently large enough to merit their own sandbox. The religious and secular coexist peacefully here, why not tourists as well?

 

[C clearly]

Those of us that hang around here and offer advice each make their own choice.

Thank you for the excellent summary. It reminded me of another of your posts that I had bookmarked with the note "school room analogy" since it seemed such a perfect description of the forum. Here it is (and be sure to "click to expand" for the last paragraph)...

This forum isn't a court room where truth is discerned by burning away the irrelevant in the crucible of debate and evidence. It's a one room school house. Here the younger students are puzzling at how to open the plastic box of crayons their mother thoughtfully stuffed in their pack, or discern the purpose of that plastic "V" shaped thingie with a hinge and a sharp point on one side and a pencil on the other. Meanwhile, the seniors are working through the quantum mechanics-like puzzle of finding the ideal routing to Zaragoza considering a starting point in Cincinnati, coupled with the fiesta on that day and the threat of a strike by Renfe.

It's human nature for the tall students to vote for basketball for today's gym class, while their smaller peers are plotting how to clandestinely puncture the ball. Everyone has to come to class, but not everyone comes similarly equipped, or is there with the same purpose.

 

[David]

“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so”

William Shakespeare, Hamlet. Act II, Scene 2, spoken by Hamlet.

and so it is - all the same manifestation - it is the mind that judges and cherry picks, don't you think?

 

[natefaith]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Lots to digest. We’re closing this thread for now.