Cycling bells a must!

[EvanandSue]

We are cycling the Camino Frances on the road and have heard many stories about disrespectful cyclists on the walking path. If you must cycle the path (and we are not sure why), make sure you use a bell to warn the walkers of your presence. Also, slow down! A bike hurtling past at more than three times the speed of the walker is most distressing for them.
Cheers
Sue and Evan

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The bulk of the cyclists are Italian, French, and Spanish. Your request would need to reach them to have much of an impact!

 

[Davroos]

We cycle the path as we feel safer.

 

[newfydog]

We cycle the path as we feel safer.

Yeah, I have yet to have any kind of accident with a walker, but I have had five friends killed on the road. One was hit last week, and is still in a coma.

 

[MendiWalker]

Yeah, I have yet to have any kind of accident with a walker, but I have had five friends killed on the road. One was hit last week, and is still in a coma.

I´m sorry to hear that you have lost 5 friends due to road accidents. I also have lost some friends ( cyclists) as well.

But that´s no excuse for a cyclist not to have and use a bell on their bike. I also have had some friends (hikers) run over by bicycles without a bell.
Fortunately they were only sent off to hospital . The cyclists in these cases also ended up in hospital.

So for everyones safety ..... if you ride a bike invest a few euros on a bell . Let people know you´re coming.


Buen Camino!

 

[Davroos]

And for everyones safety, walkers, please walk without headphones so you can hear the cyclists with the bells

 

[JennyH94]

The wonderful Peter, who is known to some of us on the Forum, has a GREAT saying ... and it goes like this ... "USE YOUR BELL, BABY!" 'Gotta love this!
Cheers - Jenny

 

[rickster]

I can't tell you how many times I have been brushed by cyclists passing without warning. This past summer I witnessed a near fatality as a cyclist flew down a hill past pilgrims and around a blind corner only to be met by a car that had to slam on his brakes and veer off the road to avoid the irresponsible cyclist. He saved his life. After witnessing several near misses, I became very angry with cyclists in general on the camino. I realize that there are many who are very responsible who don't deserve these feelings, but they need to do their best to help influence the others who frankly should not be on the camino. I hope that I am not coming off too negative, but as this problem is only getting worse with more pilgrims on the camino and more bikers, it is inevitable that there will be more injuries and possibly fatalities. Something needs to be done. Meanwhile, the camino remains a tremendous experience and those of us who cherish these walks will just have to continue to be vigilant with our awareness and readiness to be a "defensive" walker. Don't think this was the mindset of the pilgrims even 20 years ago, who were probably more worried about four-legged creatures than two wheelers out of control.

 

[Davroos]

I hear you Rickster.

My main issue is the pilgrims who insist on wearing headphones and when I ride along, ring my bell, yell out buon camino, and then they abuse me as they could not hear me !!! In the end I threw my bell away as I found it a waste of time !!!

I have walked and cycled so I have seen both sides, some of us don't have the time as we are not students or retired and the only way to complete a long one is to ride it. And after seeing the amount of walkers on the Frances, maybe this is why I have never done this route and kept to the smaller ones when I have walked and the VDLP when I have ridden a longer one

 

[rickster]

I hear you Rickster.

My main issue is the pilgrims who insist on wearing headphones and when I ride along, ring my bell, yell out buon camino, and then they abuse me as they could not hear me !!! In the end I threw my bell away as I found it a waste of time !!!

I have walked and cycled so I have seen both sides, some of us don't have the time as we are not students or retired and the only way to complete a long one is to ride it. And after seeing the amount of walkers on the Frances, maybe this is why I have never done this route and kept to the smaller ones when I have walked and the VDLP when I have ridden a longer one

Davroos, I can totally understand your frustration. I also like to cycle, but have only walked the caminos. Sounds like you have found the common sense approach to doing both.

 

[newfydog]

Here's what I wrote on the Frances....

http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...minos-good-better-and-best.16273/#post-115564

Camino Frances

Beginners---A-
Experienced—A
Hard Core mountain biker--- C

795 KM, Took us 12 days

The Camino Frances is unique among all the pilgrimage trails we have done. It is far far busier than the others.
The Standard Camino Frances is one of the best long bike routes in the world. It is fairly easy, and I’ve seen it done nicely by first time cyclo-tourists, as well as riders on bikes not particularly well suited to rough off road riding. The popularity of the route has some upsides, in that food and lodging can be found everywhere. The churches are usually open. If you have a problem, someone will come along and help. The marking is great, and the route takes you in and out of towns on wonderful back roads and paths, options one would never find on a self-planned route. Finally, all those people are a diverse group of interesting people; you may well enjoy meeting quite a few of them.

The only people I discourage from biking the Frances are those not particularly interested in a cultural trip, who would compare it to other bike trips for the physical and geographical riding rather than the whole picture. (I once met a cyclist whose first comment was “the biking is better around Moab, Utah”.

It can be full of people, and to ride it properly, expect to slow down to walking pace, say hello, and pass carefully many times a day. Also have a bike bell, and learn it ring it in a manner which says, “I’m here, don’t let me startle you”, rather than “ding ding ding commin’ through!” Impatient riders should do it in the winter.

 

[Davroos]

Newfy, I agree, maybe do it in the winter, but a friend of mine walked it last year in the month of October and said that it rained on him for 5 to 7 days ad consequently, the track was to muddy to walk and the walkers had to walk on the side of the road. He wasn't comfortable about this. Cars beside him, as well as road cyclists. So what do you do when you have to ride on the road, use your bell, spill out onto the road into the cars? I know Spain has a rule where every car has to give a bike 1.5 metres of room, but sometimes when you have pilgrims who like to walk 2/3/4 beside each other, it can become quite dangerous for the cyclist

But as I said, I have never really wanted to do this route, well, not until three weeks ago when I drove from Burgos to O'Cebreiro. What a highway, but it kindled something inside me !!!

 

[newfydog]

I've biked the Frances twice. It was crowded the last 100 km, but other than that, it was a wonderful ride. Both times it was September, which offered good weather and manageable crowds

 

[jaws101]

Although I biked the Frances (with a bell) and was respectful of walkers, I did notice some mountain bikers on parts of the route who were doing a marked mountain bike trail which was using the same tracks as the Camino. For them a fast ride is probably their once a week treat in their local area and they are not riding the Camino as such. It is unfortunate that these riders are seen as inconsiderate Camino riders. Everyone on any part of the route needs for be aware of what and who is around them whether on a path, track or road.

 

[james-o]

Jaws101 has a good point, as does the OP re bells. I rode the Camino France in 2012 (with a bell) and there were quite a few riders who were either packing a lot lighter than us (and we were minimally-packed!) or were just out on a day ride - small rucsacks and that was it. I think we saw less about a dozen actual camino-tourer cyclists on the whole route and none of them struck me as the inconsiderate gung-ho types at all. That's not to excuse anyone's behaviour, but perhaps some just aren't fully aware of where they are. It's crowded generally along that route though and I can see the potential for grief. Sometimes just being passed unexpectedly but safely by a bike annoys those who don't expect them to be there, it can be the same for riders being passed in the same way by cars. tbh, I think reports of a lack of consideration etc are often exaggerated in both cases? I hope so anyway, idiots in (on) faster moving vehicles with little consideration are something I have too much experience of so I can empathise.

 

[Davroos]

I'm sitting in A Coruna airport reading this and today, whilst driving to Muxia, I came across four walkers taking the whole road. I approached slowly yet they were reluctant to move and one actually abused me for being in a car on the road.

So maybe cyclists can scare walkers, but does this give walkers the right to openly abuse and take the whole road?

 

[jennie]

We are cycling the Camino Frances on the road and have heard many stories about disrespectful cyclists on the walking path. If you must cycle the path (and we are not sure why), make sure you use a bell to warn the walkers of your presence. Also, slow down! A bike hurtling past at more than three times the speed of the walker is most distressing for them.
Cheers
Sue and Evan

guys u are so right, walking the camino for most people is a break from having to be alert /on your guard, its such a
wonderful change of life pace,some of the cyclists I meet were very polite but most were very rude,sadly flying past at great speed,, it takes time to adjust to the rucksack and an older guy traveling alone just ahead of us was knocked off balance and made to feel very old and insecure

 

[AJ]

And for everyones safety, walkers, please walk without headphones so you can hear the cyclists with the bells

What about deaf people?

 

[peregrina2000]

This is a debate without a resolution, IMO. It is exactly the same debate that I see in my home town between and among pedestrians, cyclists, and cars. Cyclists complain about rude pedestrians and cars, car drivers complain about rude cyclists and pedestrians, and pedestrians complain about rude cyclists and cars.

I ride my bike to work every day, so I comment on the rude pedestrians and cars. When I go to the Camino, I always walk, so I complain about rude cyclists and cars.

Rude people are equally distributed among cyclists, car drivers, and pedestrians. If you are not a rude person, do your best to accommodate others. There is just no way to rid the Camino of rude people. But you don't have to be one, whether you're on a bike, in a car, or on foot.

 

[NicoZ]

So maybe cyclists can scare walkers, but does this give walkers the right to openly abuse and take the whole road?

Pedestrians are the softest of the soft targets. They get the most rights.

Ask yourself how you would feel if a heavy truck driver didn't put the safety of cyclists ahead of his?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

This is a debate without a resolution

There is blame for everyone. I have been surprised by cyclists trying to be polite. Ears generally detect noise from in front, so with a pack and a hat, even a bell may not alert me. Pilgrims walk four abreast oblivious to the chaos they can cause, and far too frequently walk on the right side of the road. I have watched parked cars for a hundred meters, only to have them pull out just as I got to them, nearly running me over. My standing personal joke is that drivers in Spain lie in wait to make me break stride!

Considering the small fraction of the cyclists who read the Forum, I do not expect any resolution we might have HERE to be totally ineffective on the Camino. It is good to vent, though.

 

[HalfDomeOrBust]

I have had Bikes nearly hit me when hiking on trails here in the states. This is not just a Camino issue. On duel paths, they have a right as well and I understand that. Not all inform me they are coming at me and that is the shaky scary part....

 

[Davroos]

Pedestrians are the softest of the soft targets. They get the most rights.

Ask yourself how you would feel if a heavy truck driver didn't put the safety of cyclists ahead of his?

Nicoz, I was driving a car, the walkers were in the middle of the road and were reluctant to move, they then abused me as I drove past, and with a 75 year old woman in the car who we were trying to show how nice the Camino is, it is not a very good advertisement

As for heavy trucks, never a problem in Europe, they tend to give you space, the complete opposite from Australia where I come from

 

[SYates]

Ok, I might be the odd one here but ...

Why do cyclists need a bell in the first place? Do you really expect foot pilgrims to make place for YOU? Why not the other way round? If bicigrinos would adjust their speed so that they would be able to share the camino with others WITHOUT the need to warn them of them approaching - wouldn't that be so much more in the spirit of the camino??? Anyway, Buen Camino, however you do it, by foot, on a bike, on the back of an elephant ;-) SY

 

[MendiWalker]

Ok, I might be the odd one here but ...

Why do cyclists need a bell in the first place? Do you really expect foot pilgrims to make place for YOU? Why not the other way round? If bicigrinos would adjust their speed so that they would be able to share the camino with others WITHOUT the need to warn them of them approaching - wouldn't that be so much more in the spirit of the camino??? Anyway, Buen Camino, however you do it, by foot, on a bike, on the back of an elephant ;-) SY

Same reasons cars need a horn - to warn

 

[SYates]

Of them approaching? Why don't foot pilgrims have / need a bell? They do sometimes walk faster than other pilgrims ... Just food for thought as I said. SY

 

[MendiWalker]

As you know all pedestrians that includes peregrinos should walk on the left side of a road one behind another . Some do yet others don´t.
A bell is a simple & cheap warning system.

I don´t carry a bell but I do carry a whistle.

Buen Camino!

 

[Davroos]

As you know all pedestrians that includes peregrinos should walk on the left side of a road one behind another . Some do yet others don´t.

Never heard this rule in life before !!! Please show me where this is stated?

 

[Deleted member 3000]

There are signs all along the Camino telling pilgrims to walk on the left side of the road. Single file may just be common sense.

 

[newfydog]

Ok, I might be the odd one here but ...

Why do cyclists need a bell in the first place? Do you really expect foot pilgrims to make place for YOU? SY

Of course we don't expect anyone to move out of the trail for us. We go around them. However, if you startle someone (on the right surface a bike is pretty quiet), they might jump right in front of you as you pass. You just don't understand bell language. A ding does not mean "move over", it means "I'm here, don't let be surprised and jump when I go by".

 

[Sharni]

Of them approaching? Why don't foot pilgrims have / need a bell? They do sometimes walk faster than other pilgrims ... Just food for thought as I said. SY

Really? Common sense should answer that question.

 

[Davroos]

There are signs all along the Camino telling pilgrims to walk on the left side of the road.

Having walked from Porto, walked from Oviedo, ridden twice from Oviedo and ridden from Seville, never have I seen a sign stating that you should walk on the left. I have seen signs on both sides of the roads showing where the path is. I have also just driven various parts of the Frances and also never saw this sign.

 

[MendiWalker]

Never heard this rule in life before !!! Please show me where this is stated?

http://www.totana.com/educacion-vial/peaton/Todo peaton lo debe saber.htm

Enjoy

Buen Camino!

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Having walked from Porto, walked from Oviedo, ridden twice from Oviedo and ridden from Seville

Riding may cause you to miss the signs. Most of the Porto route is in Portugal. Maybe they don't put up signs. Trust me, the signs are there. I have even had French and Spanish drivers open their car window and tell me to walk on the left (occasionally, my right ankle needs a different path slope to be comfortable). Regardless of signs on the Camino, it is a universal safety rule that one walks facing traffic. I confess to being a bit stunned that you might not know this! You have my congratulations on surviving out there. You do know to ride with traffic on a bicycle, right?

 

[NicoZ]

If you have wheels on the right. If you have feet on the left. Better to see the devils contraptions

 

[freeflyer123]

We rode the Camino in July this year, so it was pretty busy - with the last 100 miles being overwhelming. We both had bells but found they did not always seem to be heard. We came to the conclusion that many people are just getting on with their hike and enjoying everything that is going on around them so that cyclists are not always expected. We also witnessed some mindless cycling, mostly involving young men on mountain bikes, and for this we apologize to all of those walking. Sadly, it is people like that who give all cyclists a bad name.

I found that, as a cyclist, there were often (although not always) small side lanes provided so that we could ride in the sure knowledge that cars (and trucks) did not have to slow down in order to wait until they could overtake. But this also meant that they often passed us at breakneck speed, and generating a strong wind, so that we would often wobble and run the risk of falling off! A bike with lots of bags on is not as easy to handle as one without! We did stick to the main road on many occasions as we didn't want to disturb those who were walking the route any more than possible. Having said that, we did find it quite dangerous in parts for cyclists on the main roads but are used to cycling with heavy traffic back home so perhaps we weren't as worried as others might be. It is such a pity that part of people's personal "training" for their Camino doesn't automatically involve the "respect for others" rule. That way, we could all enjoy our personal experience of what is an amazing trip, no matter which mode we wish to use.

I would also like to add my response to argument of whether you should face oncoming traffic when walking on the roads. Surely, it makes sense that, if you walk with the traffic coming up behind you, you run the risk of being run over by someone who might not have expected you to be there - something I was taught when I was a small child even. If you walk with the traffic coming towards you, you can always jump out of the way if you need to.

 

[Floridagal]

We are cycling the Camino Frances on the road and have heard many stories about disrespectful cyclists on the walking path. If you must cycle the path (and we are not sure why), make sure you use a bell to warn the walkers of your presence. Also, slow down! A bike hurtling past at more than three times the speed of the walker is most distressing for them.
Cheers
Sue and Evan

I totally agree with you. We just finished the Camino Frances last week and couldn't understand why the cyclists were on the walking path and their speed was something else. I have to say though that a few give all the others a bad name. We met some very nice respectful bikers during our walk.

 

[Davroos]

The VDLP was mainly off road, so there were no signs, same with il Primitivo.

Riding may cause you to miss the signs. Most of the Porto route is in Portugal. Maybe they don't put up signs. Trust me, the signs are there. I have even had French and Spanish drivers open their car window and tell me to walk on the left (occasionally, my right ankle needs a different path slope to be comfortable). Regardless of signs on the Camino, it is a universal safety rule that one walks facing traffic. I confess to being a bit stunned that you might not know this! You have my congratulations on surviving out there. You do know to ride with traffic on a bicycle, right?

I know this universal rule, it just seems strange when it was stated

As you know all pedestrians that includes peregrinos should walk on the left side of a road one behind another . Some do yet others don´t.

This wouldn't work for me at home or where I am living. I am from Australia and live in London. If I was to follow this that all pedestrians should walk on the left, I would be runover !!! For us, we are brought up as children to walk on the right. So don't feel stunned, just think, maybe he comes from a country where they drive on the left side of the road

I agree that you should walk facing the traffic, I have just never seen a sign, and yes, when I ride to/from work, I cycle with the flow

 

[volleyjanice]

Really? Common sense should answer that question.

Our camping friends have an annual discussion on common sense. The end result? "If it were "common", everyone would have it! Prior to our camino this summer, I was becoming very frustrated by bikes whizzing past on a local mixed used trail. I started counting and out of 80 bikes that passed me, only 5 offered any sort of warning. So much for us "polite" Canadians! I was quite surprised at the numbers of cyclists on the Camino Frances. There was a higher percentage who offered warning (although still not close to enough) but often the shout came when they were already right upon us. I always yelled "gracias para ding! Ding! Ding!" I'm not sure what that did for people's perceptions of my language abilities, lol, but I wanted to encourage them to keep on warning anyone in their path. I am happy to share the trail but a number of times it seemed,that the expectation was,that I would fling myself and my pack right off the trail for the faster moving bikes! That I am not willing to do!

 

[Rosemary Lyons]

Walking 38 days on the Camino, we had two near misses with our bicycle friends. One was minor and just a little scare but another was very close to a hit and scared us and soon after we were dealing with some anger about this. We finally met a solo bicyclist from Barcelona who had a meal with us and worked with our anger and fear about being hit. Most of those biking make a sound or some kind of bell. As slow as I am, I am use to walking to the side and pulling over even more for other pilgrims to pass. I am aware of my surroundings at all time. I am in the moment. Fear and anger are only a problem for me so I work on it when it comes up.
We are all pilgrims having our own Camino. It is a mistake to say one kind of Pilgrim is wrong and one is right. We are doing this together. Some are fast and some are slow and although I know that if everyone slowed down a bit I would have more walking friends it is all ok.
You can get hurt or die when a mountain of snow falls on you or you try to cross the road or fall off your bike and hit your head. Somethings we can not control. We need to do our best, wake up and walk.

 

[MendiWalker]

You could have fooled me.

Buen Camino!

 

[MendiWalker]

The thing is we weren´t talking about where you are from nor where you live. We are talking about the Camino de Santiago. And here if there is no pavement people have to walk on the left facing the oncoming traffic. It´s the law. In Oz,UK and a few more countries like Japan where traffic flow in the opposite direction pedestrians have to walk on the right facing the oncoming traffic. Because it´s the law there as well.

In fact in London town on the pavement in some places it even tell you on which side of the pavement you have to walk.

Buen Camino!

 

[Davroos]

The thing is we weren´t talking about where you are from nor where you live. We are talking about the Camino de Santiago.

But that was not the point, re-read the quote

As you know all pedestrians that includes peregrinos should walk on the left side of a road one behind another

All pedestrians that includes peregrinos it says, so to me, this says, not just peregrinos, but if you are a pedestrian, you walk on the left side.

This is a debate without a resolution, IMO. It is exactly the same debate that I see in my home town between and among pedestrians, cyclists, and cars. Cyclists complain about rude pedestrians and cars, car drivers complain about rude cyclists and pedestrians, and pedestrians complain about rude cyclists and cars.

And that is about the only remark in this debate that has made any sense.

Personally, I believe that the original person who started this thread is in fact a walker and not a cyclist

 

[MendiWalker]

But that was not the point, re-read the quote

The point is you ´re trying to wiggle out of it. No problem. Have a great day &........

Buen Camino!

 

[Davroos]

The point is you ´re trying to wiggle out of it.

Explain?

 

[MendiWalker]

If you can´t see it.............

Buen Camino!

 

[CyclingJeff]

I cycled the VDLP and the Francesa this summer past; I was on a touring bike, and roadbound, so I didn't experience the major cyclist/hiker conflicts that are being reported, but I've plenty of experience in dealing with hikers on local trails.
Hikers: consider NOT using earbuds, or, if you must have your tunes, use one ear only. Leave the other to absorb the sounds of nature around you, or the ding-ding of an approaching cyclist's bell. Maintain a degree of situational awareness, it can spare everyone an ugly and painful incident.
Cyclists: Calling out "On your left (or right, whatever)" doesn't work. In my experience, the human voice doesn't carry as well as the bell-tone, nor does it penetrate earbuds as well. Besides, the walking pilgrim may not speak or understand whatever language in which you're calling out....and in any case, lots of strawfoots don't know their left from their right anyway . So, cyclists, get a bell and use it! It's common courtesy and common sense. And show some consideration for the walkers - you may think of them as obstacles, but they see you as hurtling, potentially lethal objects with whom a collision is really gonna hurt. Them, mostly. So they fear you. and people tend to hate what they fear. And who wants to be hated?
Everyone: One meets a lot of people on the Camino. Some percentage of them are bound to be inconsiderate louts. Don't let's judge one group by the sometimes inconsiderate and foolish actions of a few of its members. Be calm, be patient, be respectful....and if necessary, be forgiving. In the end, God'll get'em!

 

[EvanandSue]

But that was not the point, re-read the quote



All pedestrians that includes peregrinos it says, so to me, this says, not just peregrinos, but if you are a pedestrian, you walk on the left side.



And that is about the only remark in this debate that has made any sense.

Personally, I believe that the original person who started this thread is in fact a walker and not a cyclist

Davroos - yes we are cyclists, road, MTB and touring. In Australia it is law that you must have a bell on your bike. On the Camino, most cyclists didn't. We rode on the road. We are simply trying to draw awareness to other cyclists that the walkers are often startled by bikes. Everyone just needs to slow down.

 

[newfydog]

In Australia it is law that you must have a bell on your bike. On the Camino, most cyclists didn't. .

Well, things are different when you leave Australia. It is not as safe. Most of the cyclists I've seen bomb down the trail are Spanish. It is open to bikes, and that's how they ride. I agree, it isn't pleasant, but it is their country. I don't much like the way people drive in India either, but it is their way of doing things and I either have to put up with it or stay home..

you wouldn't allow this in Australia!

 

[Morning Glory]

What is strange to me is that cyclists, who are pressed upon by motor vehicle drivers out on the road, turn around and press on hikers. I don't mind the ring-ding of a bell or a good " Buen Camino" to let me know of a cyclist's approach, and I am happy to share the path. But I do mind when a cyclist approaches in stealth mode and slides by within an inch or two, when it is completely unnecessary. We're not pylons to be passed as closely as possible. It's unsettling to say the least, and gives rise to uncharitable thoughts. I also don't like it when a warning is given because the cyclist clearly wishes the hiker to get out of the way, as if we were an inconvenience. Fortunately, most encounters are not noteworthy, but there have been enough that were otherwise, and there was no good reason for them to have been that way.

 

[Rosemary Lyons]

Yes indeed. Everyone needs to slow down!

 

[Wanderer64]

As I began my Camino I kept an open mind toward the two-wheel pilgrims, but my opinion changed after being brushed a number of times by cyclists, many if whom were going way too fast and seemed to have no regard for walkers. Yes there were good, conscientious cyclists, but they were in a minority. Not once along my entire Camino did I see a cyclist properly yield to walkers on a narrow stretch. They always assumed right of way and as such proved to be more a menace than anything. Worst were the groups of neoprene-clad "Tour de France" wannabes who were clearly using the Camino as their own private racecourse rather than a pilgrimage. There were also too many inexperienced bike renters whose cycling ignorance and inability proved hazardous at time. I witnessed a couple of collisions between bike and walker and between bike and bike.

Especially annoying were the cyclists who refused to use parallel roadways, instead insisting on endangering walkers on the narrow Camino earthen track.

Maybe a complete ban is too harsh or unrealistic, but how about greater restrictions. Such as only during designated low season months? Or only on certain sections wide enough to safely allow bikes? In my humble opinion, the Camino is a walking route, not a cycling course to be used by bike enthusiasts using the "pilgrim" flag to fulfill their joyride.

 

[mralisn]

Especially annoying were the cyclists who refused to use parallel roadways, instead insisting on endangering walkers on the narrow Camino earthen track.

I understand your frustration and especially agree with the above about a clear road right next to the path and having the cyclists choose the walking path. I'm not quick to move to one side on at those times. Also, quite embarrassing for the rider when it's me pushing him up a hill.

Just the same perhaps we're all a menace on the Camino at one point or another.

Hopefully, these short interactions didn't ruin your walk.

 

[SYates]

And how would you police your suggestions? SY

 

[Wanderer64]

No policing per se. Lots of signage, and pilgrim passport offices would no longer issue passports to those declaring their intention to cycle. Likewise, albergues would be encouraged not to allow cyclists, which would be very easy if the cyclist has no passport. No compostela issued in Santiago to cyclists. You can never prevent people from breaking the rules, but you can find ways to strongly discourage the behavior. Walking pilgrims would have the right to remind cyclists they are not permitted on the path.

 

[vicrev]

Pretty strong stuff,Wanderer,you had better start ducking bike bits!!!!..................Vicrev

 

[SYates]

Wanderer64 I did have the occasional bad experience with cyclists, but I think if you start with banning them, what is next? I am not in favor of banning people that want to do the Camino, there is no historic reason to say that only those on foot have the right to do so! Instead your heavy handed approach it might be better to actually speak to them. Buen Camino to everybody, walkers, cyclists and what ever mode of transport you chose, SY

 

[NoQ]

Cyclists didn't bother me at first and on one occasion near Lorca I felt sorry for one who clearly realised the rocky path was far too much for him. I became less sympathetic the closer I got to Santiago and in particular after Sarria, they appeared like a constant stream with their bells, warning shouts, or trying to approach the walking pilgrim as silently as possible then giving a sudden shout and pretending to be apologetic at the result. I wouldn't say very heavy restrictions on them is fair though and I'm sure this would never happen anyway as they contribute to the local economy just like any other pilgrim.

 

[Wanderer64]

My approach is only heavy handed if you think increased numbers of cyclists pose no threat to walkers. Based on my experience, I think they do, especially if the trend toward greater bike and foot traffic continues into the future. Also not heavy handed insofar as I think compromises (restrictions) could be worked out. Better yet, help cycling groups develop their own road version of the Camino.

What's next after a cycling ban? Nothing. No slippery slope here. Bikes should never have been allowed on what is historically a foot and hooves path in the first place. There are already prohibitions, I believe, on motorbikes and other motorized vehicles on the Camino. Or should we allow motorbike and ATV enthusiasts to also fulfill their Camino dream?

The Camino will see a critical mass of traffic at some point, if it's not there already, and these issues will have to be at least discussed. And it's not just the collision hazards, but the impact of more bikes (and feet) on Camino ecosystems, among other concerns.

 

[stevenjarvis]

Maybe a good time to combine this thread, with this thread http://www.caminodesantiago.me/comm...s-should-be-banned-or-restricted-on-cf.20856/

 

[stevenjarvis]

Combine with this thread ? ?
http://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/cycling-bells-a-must.20413/

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Maybe a good time to combine this thread,

If I were a betting man, I would bet the other thread will be locked soon! It is too assertive, and will eventually inflame passions. Keeping them separate will at least keep this one open (as long as we behave in it)!

 

[Wanderer64]

Steven, I do think the two threads lead to the same debate and hard decisions pilgrim officials will eventually be forced to grapple with. As author of this thread I'm going to leave it as is, but if others want to merge the two, I'm a big fan of efficiency. I started this thread because I felt a more direct focus on the uncomfortable question of cycling on the Camino was needed.

I've stated my opinion forcefully, and I believe logically and civilly. I'll now cease and observe (unless I'm asked a direct question about points I've posted above) because the more diversity of well reasoned opinion, the better.

 

[naplesdon]

Donkeys and horses come next because they make messes and don't clean up behind themselves; oh, and all those pesky flocks of sheep who jam up the path periodically and slow your pace and don't forget the farmers with their cows using the path to get to their pastures. Really! We are walking through their yards, property and fields. Please realize that many of these "neoprene/lycra clad" bikers are local clubs out for a ride in regions where they live and are paying income and property taxes which support the maintenance and up keep of the Camino. What did you pay?

 

[vicrev]

Maybe if the Cyclists had to ride backwards it would help to solve the problem ?.................Vicrev

 

[stevenjarvis]

Donkeys and horses come next because they make messes and don't clean up behind themselves; oh, and all those pesky herds of sheep who jam up the path periodically and slow your pace and don't forget the farmers with their cows using the path to get to their pastures. Really! We are walking through their yards, property and fields. Please realize that many of these "neoprene clad" bikers are local clubs out for a ride in regions where they live and are paying income and property taxes which support the maintenance and up keep of the Camino. What did you pay?

Off topic but would they be scuba diving cyclists ? Or should that be Lycra clad ? I mean .....

 

[naplesdon]

I haven't seen either, just quoting the original post.

 

[jpflavin1]

Let's see if we can find some common ground.

The Camino is for everyone. (walkers, cyclists, donkeys, sheep, cows etc.)

When walking on the road, in Spain. Walkers should walk facing traffic.

Rudeness is universal. That said, pedestrians (walkers) have the right of way over cyclist, cyclists have right of way versus vehicles. Therefore, cyclist must adjust to walkers and vehicles must adjust to both. Not saying it is fair.

Walkers and Bikers should be able to listen to their music or books through ear-buds while walking or cycling, but no texting while doing either^^. I personally do not use them but folks (cyclists and walkers) should be able to listen to what they want too.

The last 100km's must be very difficult for cyclists on weekends or Holidays. I can not imagine weaving through all those families and groups on the paths to Santiago.

Ultreya,
Joe

 

[NicoZ]

, cyclists have right of way versus vehicles.

Bikes are a class of vehicle. You can get a ticket on your driving license while riding a bike.

If a path is marked pedestrian then bikes are already banned. Only paths listed for bikes allow bikes in addition to walkers.

 

[GSatt22]

Walking from SJPP to Santiago in September this year was an eye opener for me in many ways and a great learning experience. The bikes flying past without any warning was one of the least pleasant things I tried to adapt to. Rather then attack with my walking poles, which was my first reaction after a while, I decided the riders were on the same path as me, metaphorically speaking and tried to calm down. In the end I wished them all Buen Camino and asked them to 'please use a bell' as they flew past. The only response this got was a finger from one cyclist and a shrug of the shoulders from another. I really do think they should be required to fit and use their bells. There were some (a minority, sadly) who were respectful of pilgrims on foot and one couple i met who were cycling but made the decision to only use the roads out of respect for those walking.

Cyclists have a right to undertake the Way, in several places the path is marked as being specifically for cyclists, as well as walkers. But surely there is a way to educate them and avoid any unfortunate accidents.

 

[newfydog]

Bikes are a class of vehicle. You can get a ticket on your driving license while riding a bike.

If a path is marked pedestrian then bikes are already banned. Only paths listed for bikes allow bikes in addition to walkers.

And this is Spanish law you are quoting?

It seems to me that for much of the route everyone is a guest on double tracks which exist mainly for local farmers.

 

[NicoZ]

Only one allows bikes.

 

[newfydog]

I only recall one sign splitting bikes and hikers on the entire Frances, I think at the base of the climb to O'Cebreiro. They came right back together soon after.
There are young crazed mountain bikers out there. They do not read this forum. The worst I saw was a Spanish tour guide, leading a bike trip in his own country, biking the way young Spanish males do.

Most of the route is open to bikes. You need to be able to deal with it or you would be better off visiting nice, safe, regulated places. It isn't a tidy well regulated trail in some national park, it is a string of yellow arrows, painted on everything from streets to farmers tracks to Roman roads, followed by some wonderful people, as well as thieves, louts, unfenced cows, dogs, swindlers and a genuine nut case or two. All across the rather free wheeling country of Spain. Always has been.

If you can't put up with some bikes, you might find the Camino doesn't live up to your ideals.

 

[Dave.Martinez]

I locomoted from SJPdP to Santiago this September. I say locomoted instead of walking because I rented a bike from Burgos to Leon to make up time due to injury and rest days. The bike I rented did not have a bell or kick stand. As I approached perigrinos I would shout out (well in advance of reaching those pilgrims and until I passed them) "Perdon, Bicicleta!"

On one occasion, an elderly gentleman stopped and waited until I approached (at a slow speed) to yell at me in German. I don't speak German beyond a few words but his body language and gestures were completely (I felt) inappropriate for the situation. I was inclined to respond with a gesture of my own but chose not to.

On a second occasion (on the same day), a pair of pilgrims in front of me upon hearing my shouts (again from a distance and until I was upon them) chose not to share the road by allowing me room to manuever past them. The path had room for all three of us. They actually stopped in the road, spread their arms to make motions that I should slow down. I respected that and did. When I passed between them at a very slow clip one of them told me (in English) that I was dangerous. I spared a few words (not "Buen Camino') and did provide him with an unfriendly gesture.

As a walker on this Camino, I was passed by many bikes. On the leg from Zubiri to Pamplona, my walking companion and I were startled when a cyclist dropped his bike behind us. We were walking a steep downhill grade and when the cyclist rounded the bend to find walkers he applied backwheel brakes that didn't work as he expected them to. He didn't try to shout his way past us... he actually dropped the bike to avoid injuring us. He probably should have done a better inspection of his equipment prior to riding but I didn't feel the need to chastise him about that because I hadn't been injured. He was bruised and scraped but, thankfully, nothing serious. He was able to walk his bike down. He actually apologised for injuring himself by not running past us (or over us).

Most of the people who passed me on bikes were courteous and gave plenty of warning. There were occasions when bikes were suddenly on me but I was never hit by one. I was almost always passed with a "Buen Camino". I never felt my life was in danger by "out of control" bicyclists.

The Camino is not a Disney ride. Your safety is NOT guaranteed. YOU are responsible for being situationally aware. YOU need to keep an eye out for others that share the road with you. YOU need to inspect your bed for critters. YOU need to make sure you are keeping your valuables close to you. YOU need to be prepared for snorers and lights flashing in your face at 5AM. YOU need to look both ways crossing a street. YOU need to decide if wearing earphones and listening to music will be a distraction or if it will enhance your experience. YOU need to make sure your equipment is functional.

33 days, 500 miles. I never met one circumstance that was beyond my personal control to either accept or address.

With respect.

 

[vicrev]

Spot on ,Dave ..........................Vicrev

 

[newfydog]

a pair of pilgrims in front of me upon hearing my shouts (again from a distance and until I was upon them) chose not to share the road by allowing me room to manuever past them. The path had room for all three of us. They actually stopped in the road, spread their arms.

I've seen that once. A group of three going up a hill side by side. They were walking 4km/hr and I was biking maybe 5 km/hr. I slowed to their speed, said hello, and asked politely in Spanish, English, French and German if I could come by. They just ignored me and made sure they used the entire path. I eventually got to a wider spot and I went around them. I just told them to have a good day, and was glad that people like that the exception.

 

[RENSHAW]

I have previously been shouted down and bashed ( By Irate cyclists) on similar threads in which I have broached this 'Bell' issue.
This year ( I walk part Camino Frances every year) I chose to speak to cyclists and try to understand their side and was suprised to hear how many had taken bad tumbles. They had hearts and were nice peole too.
I noticed that most of them were not the problem - the problem were the local men on training runs , pushing themselvels to the limit - which means SPEED! They have little regard for the walker , if fact we are simply pests to them when they , heven forbid , have to slow down. Very few of these chaps have bells and I think this is where some walkers have developed a bad attitude towards the cyclist in general.
Logrono to Naverette was a nightmare , HUNDREDS of bikes in each direction . Pamplona , Estella and the outskirts of all large towns was one big mountain bike highway - it really spoilt it for me , constanly dodging and looking behind me. - I am seriously thinking of taking a taxi through these streaches next year. My beloved Camino ........under siege.

 

[stevenjarvis]

I have previously been shouted down and bashed ( By Irate cyclists) on similar threads in which I have broached this 'Bell' issue.
This year ( I walk part Camino Frances every year) I chose to speak to cyclists and try to understand their side and was suprised to hear how many had taken bad tumbles. They had hearts and were nice peole too.
I noticed that most of them were not the problem - the problem were the local men on training runs , pushing themselvels to the limit - which means SPEED! They have little regard for the walker , if fact we are simply pests to them when they , heven forbid , have to slow down. Very few of these chaps have bells and I think this is where some walkers have developed a bad attitude towards the cyclist in general.
Logrono to Naverette was a nightmare , HUNDREDS of bikes in each direction . Pamplona , Estella and the outskirts of all large towns was one big mountain bike highway - it really spoilt it for me , constanly dodging and looking behind me. - I am seriously thinking of taking a taxi through these streaches next year. My beloved Camino ........under siege.

I'm sorry your Logrono to Navarette experienced was so spoiled for you.

It seems to me from the discussion here and the statistics, that there will be more walkers and more cyclists as long as this trend persists. I guess everyone will have to make allowances.

 

[Bozzie]

Riding may cause you to miss the signs. Most of the Porto route is in Portugal. Maybe they don't put up signs. Trust me, the signs are there. I have even had French and Spanish drivers open their car window and tell me to walk on the left (occasionally, my right ankle needs a different path slope to be comfortable). Regardless of signs on the Camino, it is a universal safety rule that one walks facing traffic. I confess to being a bit stunned that you might not know this! You have my congratulations on surviving out there. You do know to ride with traffic on a bicycle, right?

Even on my daily walks in the States, I walk on the left-hand side of the streets and roads. It's better to see what's coming than to be hit from behind! At least you have an opportunity to jump out of the way! Why don't people have the common sense to already figure that out is amazing to me! Ha!

 

[stevenjarvis]

Even on my daily walks in the States, I walk on the left-hand side of the streets and roads. It's better to see what's coming than to be hit from behind! At least you have an opportunity to jump out of the way! Why don't people have the common sense to already figure that out is amazing to me! Ha!

common sense is increasingly rare...

 

[GSatt22]

Hola,

I met the couple EvanandSue, the ones who started this thread, we happened to stay in the same hostal during my 35 day Camino starting on 22 August from SJPdP. It was some way along and by then I had become quite concerned about cyclists because, I have to say, my experience was quite the opposite to that of Dave.Martinez: the number of cyclists who had bells, gave warning or were polite were the vast majority. It had become the issue I was most concerned about, culminating when I had been very nearly being hit my the third of three cyclists who came up behind me, at speed, silently and spread across the path on a downhill slope which fortunately was stable enough for that third cyclist to use his brakes. And his language to convey the message that I was the problem in this particular encounter. He was right, I had jumped into his way to avoid his colleagues, because I didn't know he was 'there'.

When I first began working in a steelworks many years ago we were taught that there is no such thing as an accident, it is always human error that causes harm - so, we had a range of safety devises; heat shields, padding, safety toed boots, gloves all manner of things. Anything that moved in the plant had a siren or whistle. It is correct to say that 'YOU' are responsible for your own safety, that was the basis of our training and we were given tools to maximise our chances staying safe. We also had other tools to minimise the chance we would compromise others safety. This second aspect of the training and equipment provided recognized that we as individuals are not in complete control of every circumstance in our life, so I don't really agree with the sentiment that it all reverts to the individual. A bell on a bike is, I think, a tool that comes into the latter category (a tool to help one avoid causing injury, to another or oneself) and should always be there and be used, don't you think?

The declining level of civility between pilgrims on foot and cyclists is very sad and will be difficult to arrest however we should make every effort to do this. The cycling community could contribute by heeding the call from EvanandSue. We as pilgrims on foot should make every effort to be polite, share the path and respect everyone on the path.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Here in Oz (as far as I know) its still the law that any bike used on a public road or approved cycle way must have a bell, or similar warning device. What is not mandatory is the use of such bell. Maybe is an education thing! But of course the cyclists from Spain, Germany, France, Italy or any other country (please I am not picking on these countries specifically - its just that this is where the majority of biker come from) are unlikely to read this forum. Maybe we could make up some notices to inform the bikers to have a bell/hooter and use it!!!
Saint_Mike

 

[Adders]

We are cycling the Camino Frances on the road and have heard many stories about disrespectful cyclists on the walking path. If you must cycle the path (and we are not sure why), make sure you use a bell to warn the walkers of your presence. Also, slow down! A bike hurtling past at more than three times the speed of the walker is most distressing for them.
Cheers
Sue and Evan

More than the Bell

We have just returned from Cycling the Camino on hybrid town bikes. For context: We did about 80% of the route on roads (local/provincial/national) at an average of 12.5kmph and took us 21 days of cycling which all worked well for us (my wife has a cracked vertebrea too) . We tended to follow the camino in and out of the big cities for i) Safety/avoiding busy traffic & ii) route finding. Where possible this worked very effectively and generally we were on wide tracks.

Our approach to cycling the camino was:

1) use the road running alongside the camino unless very busy (e.g Astroga to Rabanal to Ponferrada). Many of the roads were very quiet with only about 80km were felt uneasy with the traffic volume and speed. A lot we could have avoided by going off the line of the camino, i.e not taking the N120 from Villafranca to Burgos.

2) avoid climbs and steep downhill sections along the path

3) if on the camino in preparation slow down ahead of walkers to 8-10kmph) - we cycled alongside a walker on the road from Ponferrada and he walked at 6kph

4) Call out loadly ( not shout) "Hola"

5) if no reaction then use the bell

6) no response then slow to walking speed.

We noticed that when we approached walkers at a slow speed (8kmph) they were still very nervous of cyclists (and I can understand why)

However, the Camino is not purely a walking route along paths, like GR's in France & Alps, and a lot is along shared by-ways. On a number of occasions on asphalt sections (i.e out of Carrion de los Condes) walkers spread 3-4 across the road. Each party needs to be responsible along the route.

I plan to write more about our trip as cycling along side the camino was a great way to experience the inner and outer journey. A lasting memory is cycling along the road and watching a line walkers stretched out across the fields as the dawn broke.


Bueno Camino

 

[cycleguy]

I just completed the Camino Frances on my road bike. My folding bike (Bike Friday) has 20"wheels that are 1.5", so going on the path was difficult, if not impossible most of the time. As a result, I stuck to the road, which definitely has a lot of fast trucks and traffic, at times, but is also much more gradual and easier when climbing or ascending than the trail appears to be. If you do use the road, be sure to have a good map, particularly for getting in and out of cities, where I got constantly lost. I went October 5-19 and the weather was pretty good most of the way, with some bitter cold in the mornings and some rain in Galicia.
Stuart
p.s. for city riding, I don't think you could do much better than Barcelona has done. There are dedicated, separated bike lanes all over the city, with concrete posts and bike traffic lights. It was truly a fantastic experience for city riding.

 

[vicrev]

Love your bikes name,cycleguy , Bike Friday................any reason to call it that ?..........Vicrev

 

[cycleguy]

That's the name of the company, based in Eugene, Oregon. It's a great bike that fits into a suitcase, has 27 gears and feels and rides like a standard road bike. www.bikefriday.com

 

[susanawee]

We are cycling the Camino Frances on the road and have heard many stories about disrespectful cyclists on the walking path. If you must cycle the path (and we are not sure why), make sure you use a bell to warn the walkers of your presence. Also, slow down! A bike hurtling past at more than three times the speed of the walker is most distressing for them.
Cheers
Sue and Evan

I have to agree with the above....Bikes hurtling past, often very close to the walkers because of the narrowness of some of the pathways, was very disconcerting for me, especially at times when I was walking along in my own little world. More than once, I was forced to move out of the way very quickly and at one point, twisted my foot quite badly as a result. I have no argument against folk riding bikes, horses or whatever, along the same paths as we walk, but, a little respect and plain comonsense would not go astray.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Of them approaching? Why don't foot pilgrims have / need a bell? They do sometimes walk faster than other pilgrims ... Just food for thought as I said. SY

I cannot let this one go unanswered. Bell/horns whatever have always been compulsory (and a legal requirement in Oz) and their purpose was to alert those walking ahead that you were approaching. Sadly the cyclist on the Camino are not giving sufficient warning. However this has to be a two-way street/Camino - in other words ALL pilgrims have equal rights. You have to be considerate of the other person. I've had runners almost knock me over when training on a designated walking path so its not just the cyclists who are too intense to see the person ahead. To conclude - yes the use of comonsense would be helpful. Cheers and Buen Camino to both those on foot and bike.

 

[newfydog]

Bell/horns whatever have always been compulsory (and a legal requirement in Oz)

A good rule. Of course, the Camino is not in Australia. Young Spanish guys will be bombing down the trail with little regard for tourists. It is their country, so make what ever constructive recommendations you like, but accept that you are not in the land of Oz any longer and things may not be regulated to the degree you are accustomed to.

 

[StuartM]

However this has to be a two-way street/Camino - in other words ALL pilgrims have equal rights.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Road and trail use has a hierarchy in most places and the person with the least mobility and greatest vulnerability has the most right of way. Walkers, especially slower, less able, less firm of foot walkers should always be at the top of the tree. Cyclists (and as is common here on some tracks, motorcyclists) are at the bottom.

I dont know what Spanish law says on cycling but generally cyclists are lower than pedestrians but higher than motorists here.

 

[Saint Mike II]

The VDLP was mainly off road, so there were no signs, same with il Primitivo.
I know this universal rule, it just seems strange when it was stated
I cycle with the flow

Hola Davroos - when did you cycle the VDLP? I hope to ride from Salamanca starting in late Aug or early Sep this year. Any tips would be appreciated. Cheers

 

[mgtstorey]

Yesterday just As I reached Astorga I was complimented as being a rare breed because I was using my bell to warn walkers of my arrival, man told me on their 20 km trip not one cyclist had warned them of their approach causing the walkers great annoyance, please respect others on the camino, it's a great trip but please be respectful