Words, words, words. Which ones bug you and why?

[notion900]

what d


What does "POV" stand for?

Point of view

 

[Camino Chrissy]

You are not allowing for cultural differences. In Australia we go bushwalking. It might be a half day stroll or a 5 day backpacking experience but it is still bushwalking.

Telling someone to "take a hike" is an entirely different thing.

In America we say "take a hike", too. It's a cliché that I'm pretty sure means the same thing as you imply. .

 

[notion900]

Being a Canadian, well, everywhere here seems to be named after somewhere else. I sit here working in Stratford, Ontario, which is nearby to London, Ontario before I head home to Cambridge, which is just 20 minutes from Paris. So around these parts, especially in an international forum like this, there could be a lot of confusion if we didn't specify! And in the same general vicinity there is a Dublin, a Zurich, a Brussels, a Windsor, etc., etc.

Sure, but it still grates to hear London, England. I didn't say it was logical.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Maybe I sound harsh but I just felt like they were making a point. The guy who lost his boots didn't seem to ask around to see if spares could be found, I think he felt like it was some kind of sudden spiritual test maybe, and he was going to rise to it by lacerating his soles on gravel. I don't know. The other guy was living off handouts and trying to prove that the world is miraculous, I guess. I am just giving an honest reaction to the way they presented themselves to me, not their difficulties per se. I am approached by people begging at least six or seven times every day in my own daily life in London (most recently ten minutes ago), and I work with ex-homeless ex-addicts/alcoholics, and so inevitably I am going to view someone living off handouts on a pilgrimage or playing at martyrdom when they have a nice home to go back to with slightly less sympathy than someone from my everyday life here in 'the world's greatest city'.

I do understand your points, and the professional beggars are everywhere, including on the Camino -- but you can't just assume that someone with lost/stolen/broken boots should beg for replacements, whilst simultaneously condemning beggars !!

As for "living off handouts", I have not been on a single pilgrimage without eventually getting into (very) unwanted dire straits, regardless of any or all precautions otherwise. The Camino anyway isn't some sort of middle class/bourgeois club restricted solely to those that can pay their way, but it's also even a pilgrimage for the homeless or ex-homeless, addicts or ex-addicts, alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and I'm sorry, but I find it simply offensive to see claims about "playing at martyrdom" (????) or "they have a nice home to go back to" (????!!!??!!).

I really wish you could have followed the Camino in the early 90's, for example, when no matter who you were, how wealthy you were, how entitled you may have felt, you still often ended up with no other choice than some dirt on the ground for your sleeping bag and a queue for the cold shower, everyone in the same conditions for good or ill, and no place at all for such ill-placed pride nor Jacotrans-assisted psychological luxuries.

some kind of sudden spiritual test maybe, and he was going to rise to it by lacerating his soles on gravel

You have NO IDEA what was going on through his head, and whilst I don't either, the time in '94 when I found myself forced into being barefoot on the Camino just sucked -- and yeah, I had some of the same sneering comments as you've just made. And no, they were not helpful nor pertinent in the slightest.

And frankly YES -- you do sound harsh.

 

[Marigold Mama]

Point of view

Thanks for the translation Much appreciated.

 

[notion900]

I do understand your points, and the professional beggars are everywhere, including on the Camino -- but you can't just assume that someone with lost/stolen/broken boots should beg for replacements, whilst simultaneously condemning beggars !!

As for "living off handouts", I have not been on a single pilgrimage without eventually getting into (very) unwanted dire straits, regardless of any or all precautions otherwise. The Camino anyway isn't some sort of middle class/bourgeois club restricted solely to those that can pay their way, but it's also even a pilgrimage for the homeless or ex-homeless, addicts or ex-addicts, alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and I'm sorry, but I find it simply offensive to see claims about "playing at martyrdom" (????) or "they have a nice home to go back to" (????!!!??!!).

I really wish you could have followed the Camino in the early 90's, for example, when no matter who you were, how wealthy you were, how entitled you may have felt, you still often ended up with no other choice than some dirt on the ground for your sleeping bag and a queue for the cold shower, everyone in the same conditions for good or ill, and no place at all for such ill-placed pride nor Jacotrans-assisted psychological luxuries.

You have NO IDEA what was going on through his head, and whilst I don't either, the time in '94 when I found myself forced into being barefoot on the Camino just sucked -- and yeah, I had some of the same sneering comments as you've just made. And no, they were not helpful nor pertinent in the slightest.

And frankly YES -- you do sound harsh.

If you read my post carefully you'll see that I didn't condemn beggars, or even imply that the ones who approach me are 'professional'. I simply said I was often approached by them.

When I did the French way in 2007 it was pretty basic - bare municipal albergues with no heating, no choice of albergue in most places, mattresses on the floor. I agree with you that it has become pretty pampered now. But this is beside my point, I mean people dip into the caminos as a different way of life. They behave differently. So for instance if I had a horrible setback in everyday life, I wouldn't naturally assume it was a spiritual test. I would just be annoyed and try my best to sort it out. But the two people in my original post (I made no comments about your experiences by the way) just struck me as people who were making points, and points that wouldn't stand up in 'real' life. I don't sneer at all. My ex homeless colleagues would tell you that. They cook me breakfast some days, and listen to MY problems - that's God actually at work.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

You are not allowing for cultural differences. In Australia we go bushwalking. It might be a half day stroll or a 5 day backpacking experience but it is still bushwalking.

Telling someone to "take a hike" is an entirely different thing.

Probably the website I referred to was written by an American. I love the word "bushwalking"! I think I will use it around my neck of the woods in Illinois and see the reactions of others.

 

[tomnorth]

I don't have a problem with calling it "my Camino" or "your Camino." What this signifies to me is that everyone's Camino experience is unique, as are their reasons for walking the Camino.

 

[JabbaPapa]

If you read my post carefully you'll see that I didn't condemn beggars, or even imply that the ones who approach me are 'professional'. I simply said I was often approached by them.

When I did the French way in 2007 it was pretty basic - bare municipal albergues with no heating, no choice of albergue in most places, mattresses on the floor. I agree with you that it has become pretty pampered now. But this is beside my point, I mean people dip into the caminos as a different way of life. They behave differently. So for instance if I had a horrible setback in everyday life, I wouldn't naturally assume it was a spiritual test. I would just be annoyed and try my best to sort it out. But the two people in my original post (I made no comments about your experiences by the way) just struck me as people who were making points, and points that wouldn't stand up in 'real' life. I don't sneer at all. My ex homeless colleagues would tell you that. They cook me breakfast some days, and listen to MY problems - that's God actually at work.

OK fair enough, and good points, replies, and reassurances in return -- thanks. Sorry if I misunderstood anything, but I've been on the receiving end of certain attitudes far too often.

I cannot anyway even pretend to judge your personal spirituality.

You're right that in the mid-2000s there was still some more significant remnant of what the Camino was like in the '90s and earlier.

I think you unintentionally rubbed me the wrong way, and I apologise for reacting as such.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

I don't think you've understood how the Spaniards think -- their allowances for antisocial foreign behaviour does not constitute happiness with it.

Actually, I have. Perhaps I just didn't express it correctly....

 

[Annette london]

I do understand your points, and the professional beggars are everywhere, including on the Camino -- but you can't just assume that someone with lost/stolen/broken boots should beg for replacements, whilst simultaneously condemning beggars !!

As for "living off handouts", I have not been on a single pilgrimage without eventually getting into (very) unwanted dire straits, regardless of any or all precautions otherwise. The Camino anyway isn't some sort of middle class/bourgeois club restricted solely to those that can pay their way, but it's also even a pilgrimage for the homeless or ex-homeless, addicts or ex-addicts, alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and I'm sorry, but I find it simply offensive to see claims about "playing at martyrdom" (????) or "they have a nice home to go back to" (????!!!??!!).

I really wish you could have followed the Camino in the early 90's, for example, when no matter who you were, how wealthy you were, how entitled you may have felt, you still often ended up with no other choice than some dirt on the ground for your sleeping bag and a queue for the cold shower, everyone in the same conditions for good or ill, and no place at all for such ill-placed pride nor Jacotrans-assisted psychological luxuries.



You have NO IDEA what was going on through his head, and whilst I don't either, the time in '94 when I found myself forced into being barefoot on the Camino just sucked -- and yeah, I had some of the same sneering comments as you've just made. And no, they were not helpful nor pertinent in the slightest.

And frankly YES -- you do sound harsh.

If you read my post carefully you'll see that I didn't condemn beggars, or even imply that the ones who approach me are 'professional'. I simply said I was often approached by them.

When I did the French way in 2007 it was pretty basic - bare municipal albergues with no heating, no choice of albergue in most places, mattresses on the floor. I agree with you that it has become pretty pampered now. But this is beside my point, I mean people dip into the caminos as a different way of life. They behave differently. So for instance if I had a horrible setback in everyday life, I wouldn't naturally assume it was a spiritual test. I would just be annoyed and try my best to sort it out. But the two people in my original post (I made no comments about your experiences by the way) just struck me as people who were making points, and points that wouldn't stand up in 'real' life. I don't sneer at all. My ex homeless colleagues would tell you that. They cook me breakfast some days, and listen to MY problems - that's God actually at work.

I do understand your points, and the professional beggars are everywhere, including on the Camino -- but you can't just assume that someone with lost/stolen/broken boots should beg for replacements, whilst simultaneously condemning beggars !!

As for "living off handouts", I have not been on a single pilgrimage without eventually getting into (very) unwanted dire straits, regardless of any or all precautions otherwise. The Camino anyway isn't some sort of middle class/bourgeois club restricted solely to those that can pay their way, but it's also even a pilgrimage for the homeless or ex-homeless, addicts or ex-addicts, alcoholics or ex-alcoholics, and I'm sorry, but I find it simply offensive to see claims about "playing at martyrdom" (????) or "they have a nice home to go back to" (????!!!??!!).

I really wish you could have followed the Camino in the early 90's, for example, when no matter who you were, how wealthy you were, how entitled you may have felt, you still often ended up with no other choice than some dirt on the ground for your sleeping bag and a queue for the cold shower, everyone in the same conditions for good or ill, and no place at all for such ill-placed pride nor Jacotrans-assisted psychological luxuries.



You have NO IDEA what was going on through his head, and whilst I don't either, the time in '94 when I found myself forced into being barefoot on the Camino just sucked -- and yeah, I had some of the same sneering comments as you've just made. And no, they were not helpful nor pertinent in the slightest.

And frankly YES -- you do sound harsh.

Whilst reading both posts from Notion 900 and Jabba Papa,I can honestly say that both points of view are viable
On our first Camino in2005, we met a young man of 20 who decided to walk the Camino without money...or so he told us! ...he was intending to live off "alms" because he had no money.
We met half way on the Camino Frances and he became part of our Camino family
He stayed in all the municipal albergues....never gave a donation and latched onto a Priest who we knew was helping him with food.
We bought him 2 meals simply because we could not see him go hungry..and because our own children were about the same age and reasoned that" there but for the grace of God go ours"!!
Towards the end, I couldn't stand his attitude any longer and had a good stiff talk with him re personal responsibility re donitivo as opposed to "free" and paying his way...even in a small way.
Turned out, he actually had money...and an expensive credit card!!!

By the end of the journey.... I can assure you .....he was using it!!

Two years ago....again on the same Camino..we met a lovely guy with a donkey and dog in tow who had dropped out of the rat race because of mental health issues ....he had walked from Paris.
He was a most dignified man.
He never once asked anyone for money for himself or anything else and lived on a minimal amount each day,camping outside.
In this instance, it was a pleasure to give for the upkeep of his two animals.
,

 

[Camino Chrissy]

OK fair enough, and good points, replies, and reassurances in return -- thanks. Sorry if I misunderstood anything, but I've been on the receiving end of certain attitudes far too often.

I cannot anyway even pretend to judge your personal spirituality.

You're right that in the mid-2000s there was still some more significant remnant of what the Camino was like in the '90s and earlier.

I think you unintentionally rubbed me the wrong way, and I apologise for reacting as such.

I'm glad to see you two are meeting somewhere in the middle, so to speak. I can envision you shaking hands over this as you've resolved some of your differences!

 

[Icacos]

Where is SJPP?

Thanks for opening this up for my two cents worth. Being new and never doing a camino or even being in Spain when some post a name of a village/town I haven't a clue which camino they are speaking of. Sure wish this would be taken into considerations.

Oops.......I thought @Antonius Vaessen was being mischievous

 

[VNwalking]

While I am at this I might as well answer another previously post (Viranani) said about using the term "My Camino". I will continue to use such because it IS "My Camino"! no one is doing it for me and so I put claim to it as being mine. So if this is offensive I won't apologize. Let it go; let it be...

No offense taken.
Of course we walk our own camino--it could not be otherwise.

What I was referring to is different--it's using those words in ways that turn them into offensive or defensive weapons. So, for example, an able-bodied peregrino turns up at an albergue in time to get near the front of the queue, after taking a taxi a good part of the way from the last albergue and getting dropped outside the village so they can appear to have walked the whole way. Their deception deprives honest walkers of a place to stay, but when spoken to, they say, "It's MY camino, and how dare you tell me how I should or should not walk it!"
An extreme example, but that's the kind of thing I mean.

Thanks for opening this up for my two cents worth. Being new and never doing a camino or even being in Spain when some post a name of a village/town I haven't a clue which camino they are speaking of. Sure wish this would be taken into considerations.

We all (still) go there from time to time, no matter how long we've been here. One thing I find helps is to refer to the banner at the top of the screen, which will tell you what topic the post has been put up on. It should say (if the poster has been careful) "Camino Frances" or "Via de la Plata," or whatever.

Then there's a vague sense of where it is and you can go to a map and see what the acronym might refer to. I remember being confused and frustrated by this as well, but eventually with more familiarity it mostly sorts itself out.
Commonest acronyms, off the top of my head:
CF=Camino Frances
VdlP=Via de la Plata
SJPP=St Jean Pied de Port
SdC=Santiago de Compostela

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Oops.......I thought @Antonius Vaessen was being mischievous

So did I. Must be a Canadian thing. LOL

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Commonest acronyms, off the top of my head:
CF=Camino Frances
VdlP=Via de la Plata
SJPP=St Jean Pied de Port
SdC=Santiago de Compostela

The ones we have yet to set in stone are Portuguese and Primitivo. Pt for Portuguese and Pm for Primitivo?

 

[notion900]

I say French way. And the Plata and the Norte. That probably bugs someone! Sorry!

And I name-drop towns and villages, usually after racking my poor brain and looking at my old photos to try to remember where on earth it was, and I probably get it wrong anyway, so @Marigold Mama don't pay too much attention to that!

 

[Satírico]

Thanks for making this such a lively discussion. It started with my surprise that 'hike' could be a trigger for some pilgrims, but then anything can become an irritant when we lose sight of the bigger picture. That goes for camino clichés too.

This forum is about feasting on the little details of something we love, so it won't come as a surprise to see the problem of tourists/pilgrims and other matters of definitions brought up again very soon.

¡Buen viaje!

P.S. I did watch The Way again, teeth-gritted. Why the gendarme would say Camino de Santiago instead of Chemin de Saint Jacques is my new problem with this movie

 

[notion900]

Talking about 'My Camino', here is a poem (plus translation) which gives a positive perspective on it.
It has been made into a song too. It reminds me that the Camino I walked in 2007 has gone now, it's a different one now. But it's still mine. And I need to keep walking on in order to look back.

 

[Pelegrin]

I think the Spaniards like sleeping later in the morning cuz they party in the streets until 5:00am!...well, maybe not the ones walking the Camino!

In rural Galicia, there aren´t bars to party until 5:00am and many people have to get up very early to work with their milky cows (50 0r even more).

 

[VNwalking]

Wonderful poem, thank you for sharing it, @notion900!

"Caminante, son tus huellas
el camino y nada más;
Caminante, no hay camino,
...
Caminante no hay camino
sino estelas en la mar."

So... How can one posses something that doesn't exist?
Interpretations differ, of course.
(I am stirring the pot...)

 

[marbuck]

Hi Anemone,
I am American and I only say Paris, or London or Toronto. But we also have a Paris, Texas; Paris, Missouri; Paris, Illinois, and probably even more. They are all small towns and if I was referring to them I would definately include the state they are located in or people would think I am going on a great vacation!

Paris Texas: I remember the movie well!

 

[notion900]

Wonderful poem, thank you for sharing it,

Here is a fantastic rendition - enjoy! It brings a tear to my eye!

I wish I knew how to put subtitles on Youtube - maybe someone here could repost it with translation.

 

[Bradypus]

Being a Canadian, well, everywhere here seems to be named after somewhere else. I sit here working in Stratford, Ontario, which is nearby to London, Ontario before I head home to Cambridge, which is just 20 minutes from Paris.

Just occasionally it works the other way around too: the Old World imitates the New. I grew up in central Scotland. In a longish day's walk I could go all the way to California without even getting my feet wet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California,_Falkirk

 

[Anemone del Camino]

In rural Galicia, there aren´t bars to party until 5:00am and many people have to get up very early to work with their milky cows (50 0r even more).

But the Camino goes through many other places than Galician villages. I remember a night in Deba when three walkers walked in the albergue at 6 in the morning after a night in one of the cooking clubs in town.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

While I am at this I might as well answer another previously post (Viranani) said about using the term "My Camino". I will continue to use such because it IS "My Camino"! no one is doing it for me and so I put claim to it as being mine. So if this is offensive I won't apologize. Let it go; let it be...

I don't find "My Camino" offensive, but I do find it inappropriate when referring to an ancient pilgrimage route. Perhaps you will come back to the forum after walking and say if you still feel the need to use the personal pronoun in relation to the Way. After walking from SJJP to SDC and Porto to SDC there is no way I could possibly claim ownership of anything to do with walking the route to St James in Santiago. It was made possible by so many other hands, souls and soles. It is a blessing (or privilege if you prefer a secular term) to be able to begin the journey, to have the physical strength to continue to walk every day, to reach the cathedral, to meet people whose generosity of spirit and humanity touch our hearts, and perhaps to be able to carry home to our everyday lives all that we learned along the way. I am of little consequence, but the Camino changes lives, heals wounds and opens hearts.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

In rural Galicia, there aren´t bars to party until 5:00am and many people have to get up very early to work with their milky cows (50 0r even more).

I was mostly referring to the larger city centers I stayed in... No cow milking Spaniards living there!

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Words, words, words. Which ones bug you and why?

These words don't bug me now but in Spain after having 250,000 pilgrims pass us slowpokes by I was getting pretty irritated by all those damn Buen caminos.

 

[grayland]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

 

[Bradypus]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

Accurate though. Walking the Camino Frances last year I often saw piles of baggage waiting to be picked up by Jacotrans and their competitors. I was very surprised at how many of the bags and occasionally suitcases which I saw could not practically have been carried for more than the few minutes it might take to pass through an airport. Clearly owned by people who never had any intention of carrying their luggage on their daily walking. Even if that had been my plan too I think that I would have chosen something more easily portable just for ease of transfers to and from the airport.

 

[VNwalking]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

Or this guy.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

Just one Wayfarer? When I stayed at the Albergue de Jesus in Villar de Mazarife, I was just preparing to leave when I noticed a Frenchwoman in the courtyard are. She was striking to me in my showered but dishevelled state, because her hair was freshly coiffured and her white shirt was cleanly pressed. While I was wondering how she managed to be so well-turned, there were loud thuds down the wooden stairs as her friends brought down a whole army of large wheeled suitcases with labels attached for the transport firm, and then they all put on their little day sacks. Not judging, just saying what I saw. They were enjoying themselves - I was suffering at that point!

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Oops sorry I meant to say grayland but snatching a few moments on the forum in between planting vegetables, I mixed up my moderators. Apologies.

 

[trecile]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

Or this guy.

How about this guy?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Accurate though. Walking the Camino Frances last year I often saw piles of baggage waiting to be picked up by Jacotrans and their competitors. I was very surprised at how many of the bags and occasionally suitcases which I saw could not practically have been carried for more than the few minutes it might take to pass through an airport. Clearly owned by people who never had any intention of carrying their luggage on their daily walking. Even if that had been my plan too I think that I would have chosen something more easily portable just for ease of transfers to and from the airport.

I wonder how many of the people who brought full size luggage and used transport services exclusively loved their Camino experience and are members of this forum?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

How about this guy?

View attachment 32656

How about this guy? We saw him checking out at the front desk at the Parador in Leon. We had stopped in to order breakfast, but were told by staff that it was for hotel guests only!

 

[Bradypus]

I wonder how many of the people who brought full size luggage and used transport services exclusively loved their Camino experience and are members of this forum?

I have no doubt that many people who made this choice thoroughly enjoyed their camino experience and gained a great deal from it. In my post I expressed surprise at the large number of bags which could only be of practical use when using luggage services. I expressed my personal opinion that they appeared cumbersome and limited both choice and mobility. I did not and I would not suggest that to make use of such luggage and the baggage transport services is not a valid and acceptable option for those who wish to do so.

 

[Tigger]

I've met someone who was walking without money, and someone who said his boots were stolen so he carried on barefoot. Philosophy or attention-seeking? TBH I found them both a bit annoying. Often the quietest most unassuming pilgrim is the one I admire most. Like a 90 year old German man I met sitting silently outside a bar in Boimorto, Galicia, enjoying the sun, who had just walked from Stuttgart.

Oh another annoying words thing is people who go on about charging their devices all the time, like some kind of disaster will occur if you have an hour without email. My first camino I left my mobile phone at home, and guess what - I'm still alive!

Didn't you know? They walk from charging station to charging station as their pilgrimage! 'OMG it is 27km until I can charge my IPhone!'

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have no doubt that many people who made this choice thoroughly enjoyed their camino experience and gained a great deal from it. In my post I expressed surprise at the large number of bags which could only be of practical use when using luggage services. I expressed my personal opinion that they appeared cumbersome and limited both choice and mobility. I did not and I would not suggest that to make use of such luggage and the baggage transport services is not a valid and acceptable option for those who wish to do so.

I knew you were only sharing what you had observed and were not judging. And I meant no negativity either. I was just curious in my reply, wondering if this forum is used much by those who do bring "real" luggage and use transport for it...I do believe "to each their own".

 

[Glenn Rowe]

I don't think you've understood how the Spaniards think -- their allowances for antisocial foreign behaviour does not constitute happiness with it.

Actually I did.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Using the term "luggage"..it always brings to mind someone walking with a roller suitcase.....

And you think that those who speak of "luggage" of others, don't mean it?

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I wonder how many of the people who brought full size luggage and used transport services exclusively loved their Camino experience and are members of this forum?

More than you would like to think.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

How about this guy? We saw him checking out at the front desk at the Parador in Leon. We had stopped in to order breakfast, but were told by staff that it was for hotel guests only!
View attachment 32659

Nothing wrong with him. He may be suffering from real back pain and is at least putting sweat and tears into it vs those creating a new industry: mochileros.

 

[Bogong]

Thanks so much to LmSundaze, Annette and others for explaining far more eloquently than I could the meaning of "De Colores". And yes, it's associated with the world-wide Cursillo movement which I understand originated in Santiago de Compostela.

De colores

Bogong

 

[Camino Chrissy]

More than you would like to think.

I say, the more the merrier!

 

[Marigold Mama]

what ma

No offense taken.
Of course we walk our own camino--it could not be otherwise.

What I was referring to is different--it's using those words in ways that turn them into offensive or defensive weapons. So, for example, an able-bodied peregrino turns up at an albergue in time to get near the front of the queue, after taking a taxi a good part of the way from the last albergue and getting dropped outside the village so they can appear to have walked the whole way. Their deception deprives honest walkers of a place to stay, but when spoken to, they say, "It's MY camino, and how dare you tell me how I should or should not walk it!"
An extreme example, but that's the kind of thing I mean.


We all (still) go there from time to time, no matter how long we've been here. One thing I find helps is to refer to the banner at the top of the screen, which will tell you what topic the post has been put up on. It should say (if the poster has been careful) "Camino Frances" or "Via de la Plata," or whatever.

Then there's a vague sense of where it is and you can go to a map and see what the acronym might refer to. I remember being confused and frustrated by this as well, but eventually with more familiarity it mostly sorts itself out.
Commonest acronyms, off the top of my head:
CF=Camino Frances
VdlP=Via de la Plata
SJPP=St Jean Pied de Port
SdC=Santiago de Compostela

Thanks but what map might you be referring to?
Often what I see is a name of a town/village which is totally unknown to me so I find myself wondering where in the hell are we; what Camino is this person doing. Ya see whata mean?

 

[VNwalking]

Often what I see is a name of a town/village which is totally unknown to me so I find myself wondering where in the hell are we; what Camino is this person doing. Ya see whata mean?

Sure. It happens all the time to me too, when someone's talking about a place I haven't been. So if they haven't posted on a labeled Forum (which makes it obvious which Camino they're talking about), I just take the name, go to Google Map and do a search. Easy.

 

[notion900]

@Marigold Mama the map I think of as the 'classic' map is the one from the Credencial (or at least my original one) here it is on someone's blog But it does not show all the small places.

If you really have a burning desire to know where somewhere is and what route it's on, there are 3 amazing websites in Spanish you can look at too
Eroski Consumer (heaven knows why it's called that)
Gronze.com
Mundicamino.com
They have all the routes and stages and albergues. You don't need to read Spanish to get a lot out of them, because they are a lot of lists and maps, only the comments section will baffle you. Use the search function by putting in the name of a place - search is 'buscar'.

 

[trecile]

Nothing wrong with him. He may be suffering from real back pain and is at least putting sweat and tears into it vs those creating a new industry: mochileros.

What's wrong with enterprising Spaniards creating a new industry and earning money?

 

[Bogong]

Thanks so much to LmSundaze, Annette and others for explaining far more eloquently than I could the meaning of "De Colores". And yes, it's associated with the world-wide Cursillo movement which I understand originated in Santiago de Compostela.

De colores

Bogong

Well, while the topic is seemingly devolving into which terms we like most, the "Cursillo/De Colores" story is perhaps even more fascinating and nuanced. There were origins of the movement in Mallorca in the early to mid-1940's when a lay-inspired programme to train Christian pilgrim leaders. But in 1948, with a group of young pilgrims setting out from there for the tomb of St James (as part of a much larger pilgrimage) a course was implemented to train and prepare them for the experience (i.e. for their Camino). It was on their return from Santiago de Compostela that they felt a need to commemorate and build on the programme, first in Spain and then spreading world-wide.

So in effect what we have today grew out of, and is closely associated historically with, the Camino pilgrimage. The singing of "De Colores" (a traditional "chicken" song) was started by a group of returning pilgrims and has become a joyous feature of the movement.

De colores

Bogong.

 

[VNwalking]

So in effect what we have today grew out of, and is closely associated historically with, the Camino pilgrimage. The singing of "De Colores" (a traditional "chicken" song) was started by a group of returning pilgrims and has become a joyous feature of the movement.

May I ask (while going a bit far afield from the original topic)? Chicken song?
What comes to mind is people sitting around imitating a crowing rooster and while that's a funny image, I know it's not likely what you mean @Bogong.

 

[Bradypus]

@Viranani - this Wikipedia article has lyrics in Spanish and English which might help explain!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Colores

And if you find the idea of people imitating chickens funny then have you ever heard the Henhouse Five Plus Two's version of Glenn Miller?

 

[VNwalking]

Uhhhh, nooooo, @Bradypus . I hadn't heard of that.
What the human mind can come up with is truly miraculous and astonishing..

 

[Annette london]

This is great
Love chickens
Love Glenn Miller
How did we get onto chickens for heavens sake??
Oh yes......it was Beong!!
Cheers. Annette

 

[Karen2017]

More than you would like to think.

Really don't need to explain my why to anyone and it seem like we will be judge for doing so, happy accepting individuals I think not.

 

[Introibo]

Wow, this has gone a long way off topic since I last looked

At the 100k way mark, looking like a tramp by now and lathered
in white sun tan lotion I greeted a German family group fresh out
of Sarria with a robust Buen Camino. They looked a little startled.
Peter, a German guy walking in our group spoke soothing words
to them. As they moved on Peter asked if I could make it sound
more like a greeting in future, rather than a threat or a challenge !

 

[Hutton24]

Probably the website I referred to was written by an American. I love the word "bushwalking"! I think I will use it around my neck of the woods in Illinois and see the reactions of others.

Aussies say bushwalking too Chris.

 

[Nanc]

it's funny but I don't mind what anyone else calls walking the Camino but I have a bit of hesitancy on what to call it myself.
Hike has always seemed more wild and outdoorsy (I LOVE hiking) and all the village and asphalt travel makes this seem less of a hike- like I'm misrepresenting it.
Walk is too casual and doesn't reflect the effort length or intent
I tend to call it a trek for those reasons , but you can call it any thing you want

and for "it's your camino" my issue is , if you want to do some thing regardless of what anyone suggests, why ask?
just do it and don't waste anyone's time getting input you really don't want

but who cares?

 

[Camino Chrissy]

Aussies say bushwalking too Chris.

Somehow my comment got out of context. Yes, I know it's an Aussie expression, which is why I want to use it in Illinois, to see the reaction of family and friends, hoping for a good laugh!

 

[Purky]

I tend to call it a trek for those reasons , but you can call it any thing you want

Thanks to another thread on this forum I have decided to go with 'quest' for my next camino. A quest is journey-based (unlike a pilgrimage, which is primarily about reaching a certain and known destination) and it is all about seeking something important on an unknown location while traveling. As to the 'what' I'm on a quest for, I'll just nod and wink knowingly to whoever asks.

 

[Icacos]

.......As to the 'what' I'm on a quest for, I'll just nod and wink knowingly to whoever asks.

I like your response......but it made me think of this quote by Blaise Pascal: The heart has its reasons, of which reason knows nothing.

 

[Playful Dread]

As is, I find, with all language it's not necessarily the words I find 'fault' with but the authenticity in which they're used.

So if you're genuinely hiking the road to Santiago then good for you! I'll take the path of authenticity along with you.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Although I find Pascal a very smart cookie, and his quotes thought-provoking, I sort of don't really agree with that one. For me the rub is in the separation he places between heart (intuition, gut-feeling) and mind (reason, intellect). I find it polarising, and therefore a bit annoying.
A lot of what I do is a mix between my heart and my reason: they complement each other, and well they should.

It's rather difficult to translate --

Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît pas.

Something closer to the intended meaning might be : "One's Soul is mindful in ways that one's mind forgets."

 

[Kanga]

The use of the nown "bugs" as a verb. Discúlpeme.

 

[Bogong]

The use of the nown "bugs" as a verb. Discúlpeme.

De nada. Pero "disculpe" es suficiente.

B

 

[Kanga]

Yes, but I love the sound of it in full.

 

[VNwalking]

Today, reminded by something that happened here:
Anyone who directly says or implies that donativo means free.

This catapults me beyond annoyance to something else altogether.

 

[Bogong]

As a British English speaker, 'doing' a place sounds horrible, like when tourists say 'we are doing Stratford tomorrow and Oxford on Thursday'. Also saying things like Paris, France, or London, England drives us spare.

Just saying!

"I've been things and done places" _ Mae West.

De colores

Bogong

 

[Marigold Mama]

No offense taken.
Of course we walk our own camino--it could not be otherwise.

What I was referring to is different--it's using those words in ways that turn them into offensive or defensive weapons. So, for example, an able-bodied peregrino turns up at an albergue in time to get near the front of the queue, after taking a taxi a good part of the way from the last albergue and getting dropped outside the village so they can appear to have walked the whole way. Their deception deprives honest walkers of a place to stay, but when spoken to, they say, "It's MY camino, and how dare you tell me how I should or should not walk it!"
An extreme example, but that's the kind of thing I mean.


We all (still) go there from time to time, no matter how long we've been here. One thing I find helps is to refer to the banner at the top of the screen, which will tell you what topic the post has been put up on. It should say (if the poster has been careful) "Camino Frances" or "Via de la Plata," or whatever.

Then there's a vague sense of where it is and you can go to a map and see what the acronym might refer to. I remember being confused and frustrated by this as well, but eventually with more familiarity it mostly sorts itself out.
Commonest acronyms, off the top of my head:
CF=Camino Frances
VdlP=Via de la Plata
SJPP=St Jean Pied de Port
SdC=Santiago de Compostela

I guess I wasn't clear when I asked about which camino such and such a town was in. Google Map will not tell me which camino is being referred to. And not all of us have whatever map you might be referring to.
Furthermore you wrote: "One thing I find helps is to refer to the banner at the top of the screen..." is not true to form. Often the banner says one thing but the posts veer off into another direction)s)...
As for acronyms... again I wasn't clear enough.
S. Yates, bless her heart, took the time and a lot of effort plus other forum members contributed to a list of the numerous acronyms used on this forum. I erred. I should have tried to copy it and kept it handy whenever some poster decides he/she didn't have the time or energy to spell the words out in a more widely acceptable manner.
Now I am going to leave this be. I've had my say and I do not want to get in to a war of words. Sadly, it is something I am viewing here on this Forum. Last but not least I would like you camino veterans to know that to us newbies we become a bit leery/jittery of asking or commenting due to the intimidation seen here and the continuation of beating a dead horse...
You have a right to take issue here. I truly do not care. You can have your opinions but you cannot take mine from me. I am merely stating my thoughts as well as my observations.
Thanks to all of you who take the initiative to be helpful, kind and patient.
Sincerely, Marigold Mama

 

[VNwalking]

Google Map will not tell me which camino is being referred to. And not all of us have whatever map you might be referring to.

Hi, @MarigoldMama.
Yeah, you're right, it doesn't.
Here's a link that I find really helpful, when used together with Google Maps, to locate whatever camino a poster might be referring to. Once you find the town on google, then you can hover your cursor over the general area of the Mundicamino map and the name of that Camino will pop up. A bit tedious but it works.
And it's a good general resource for getting familiar with all those names

Last but not least I would like you camino veterans to know that to us newbies we become a bit leery/jittery of asking or commenting due to the intimidation seen here and the continuation of beating a dead horse...

Please forgive any unintended intimidation if you felt that from what I wrote; it was not intended. It's good to get feedback like this--and I hope all of us to whom this applies can let it in.

My general experience of the forum, though, is not so different from when I first posted this as a total newbie with maybe one or two posts. We're not all angels, though. There are a handful of people here whose default setting is to challenge others, and once I realized that, somehow it was easier to let it all go on by--because there's good in them as people, too, and I didn't/don't want to miss it.
There's enough blindness in the world as it is.

 

[WayWalker]

A silent camino is sounding better and better to me.

 

[Jamie1240]

Have you noticed how their repetition when spoken robs them of all meaning?

Anyway, I was surprised to read some forum members reacting to the use of the word 'hike' in a thread yesterday? Personally, it drove me mad last year when people kept saying to me, 'Enjoy your holiday!'. Holiday? That struck me as a misapprehension about the camino which detracted from what I was going to put into the experience and what I hoped to get out of it. A lot of people say 'walk' rather than 'hike', and that too could imply something easygoing, and relative though these words are, as are our experiences, I don't consider any camino leading to SdC easy.

Does 'hike' bother you? What other words - camino-forum-related - bug you and why??

This OP needn't open up the can of worms that is pilgrim vs tourist, but if it does, we're ready for another joust, right?

Phil

The one thing that caught me off guard (didn't upset me, though) was when people would say "Have fun!" Now that I'm back, people will say "Did you have fun?" I wouldn't call the pilgrimage fun, necessarily - physically challenging, yes (limping into allergies at the end of the day)- amazing and beautiful and, for me, transformative! But unless a person has experienced something like this, I think people just find it difficult to understand. Therefore, people use words that they can better understand, even if they use words I might not necessarily use. Interesting topic!

 

[LesBrass]

Crikey this is a long thread... and I just read through it all as I didn't want to repeat others.

I may have become distracted and missed this, but for me, the word that I really really dislike is "tourgrino"

 

[Alex Dittmer]

For me " Doing El Camino de Santiago ".

IMHO
First of all " doing " like something you tick of a list. You don't do a pilgrimage but you walk and experience it.
Secondly : there is no such thing as "El Camino " but many Caminos or routes to Santiago de Compostela.

Since you "Walk" a Pilgrimage, are all those cyclists non-pilgrims?

 

[Tracie]

And another one: the Camino Francis.

Just read a post from someone who claims to have walked the Frances last year but still calls it the Francis. Really? Never wondered where the name came from?

Spell check does it to me everytime

 

[Rod Murray]

"Hike" doesn't worry me at all. Just a synonym for a long walk. Neither does "holiday" or "vacation". Or indeed "tourist" when applied to myself - though it bothers me when others use it as a derogatory term for those whose ideas and practice differ from their own. When I visit Spain or Italy or Sweden or any other country to walk a pilgrimage route I am a tourist. ...

I beg to differ. When you walk or do a pilgrimage in another country you are a traveller. A traveller is different from a tourist. A tourist visits places. A traveller tries to experience those places. I think a traveller is interested in a deeper experience than a tourist might be. Pilgrims, by nature, are seeking a deeper experience. Just my POV.

 

[Jacobus]

And Mahatma Gandhi's:

"Speak only if it improves upon the silence."

Did Gandhi not also say "call me anything but don't call me late for dinner!"

 

[Icacos]

I'd be very surprised if he said that! I believe he ate very sparingly and in later years seemed to be perpetually on a hunger strike protesting for one cause or the other. His people were always trying to get him to eat. (I could be wrong tho'; it's been known to happen.)

One of Gandhi's lines that I love the best was when he was going to England to meet King George VI. He insisted on adding just a jacket to his usual clothing, the dhoti (pants) and sandals. When his people urged him to wear more clothing, he said it wasn't necessary, that he was sure the King would be wearing enough clothes for the both of them. Off topic....sorry!

 

[cher99840]

I don't understand the whole concept of getting upset by words/expressions that other people use. Sure it happens---that flash of irritation, but when it happens to me, I consider it MY problem rather than theirs, as it's my own intolerance that sparks it. I don't want to wallow in my intolerance; I don't want to defend it. Two of my biggest character defects are intolerance and impatience. I want to decrease their impact on my life rather than celebrate it.

 

[Grandma]

Have you noticed how their repetition when spoken robs them of all meaning?

Anyway, I was surprised to read some forum members reacting to the use of the word 'hike' in a thread yesterday? Personally, it drove me mad last year when people kept saying to me, 'Enjoy your holiday!'. Holiday? That struck me as a misapprehension about the camino which detracted from what I was going to put into the experience and what I hoped to get out of it. A lot of people say 'walk' rather than 'hike', and that too could imply something easygoing, and relative though these words are, as are our experiences, I don't consider any camino leading to SdC easy.

Does 'hike' bother you? What other words - camino-forum-related - bug you and why??

This OP needn't open up the can of worms that is pilgrim vs tourist, but if it does, we're ready for another joust, right?

Phil

One of the things that's really beginning to bug me is the many references to 'the Camino' when talking about the Camino Frances - it's as though this trail is the only one of any real significance!

 

[Satírico]

One of the things that's really beginning to bug me is the many references to 'the Camino' when talking about the Camino Frances - it's as though this trail is the only one of any real significance!

If you live in Portsmouth then presumably that is a hub for the Camino Ingles, the perilous sea voyage to Galicia undertaken by Brits and Irish peregrinos. It's worth remembering how many manifestations of St James took place in water. The Camino Frances has more churches and monasteries to visit but they're often closed at the moment one walks by.

Philip

 

[Bogong]

Well, what a wide-ranging discussion, and so many seemingly disparate views. And how interesting!

At the risk of making things even more complicated while trying to simplify things, here's something to chew on. Please forgive my execrable Spanish!

First "caminar" is the Spanish verb to walk. "El camino" means "the way" or "the walk". So "Me camino a Sydney para visitar a mi familia" is I'm walking to Sydney to visit my family. "Estoy en el camino" means I'm on the way. Now, "The Way" is the name of a film which was not specifically about any route, but rather about human discovery and relationships. That it featured parts of the Camino Frances so-called is neither here nor there. "El Camino de Santiago" simply means " The Way of St James".

Which leads into my worries about terms such as "The Camino provides". While some like to think of it in a benign sense there is also an inherent malevolence if we want to adhere to the term which I suspect is overlooked. It includes bad weather deaths on the Col , robbery, murder and assault, sickness and injury, bed bugs, robberies, Moor raiding parties etc going back centuries. You can't have one without the other. Personally, every morning I walk up to 10k through some lovely country and until I wrecked both my knees (before the Camino) I was an avid cross-country skier (almost certainly what wrecked my knees). Being on top of Mt Jagungal in Australia's Snowy Mountains at the same time I would otherwise have been in church was an uplifting experience even knowing that there was going to be some bruising when then going downhill over several hundred metres of steepish sheet ice. Equally I enjoyed and had uplifting experiences in Spain, even more so in Easter Week than on the Camino, but I wouldn't try to ascribe any mystical value to any of the particular places in question. Several friends have suffered quite serious injuries while skiing but this couldn't be blamed on any "malevolence" even though the snow conditions at the time may have been unstable. For me it was about personal communion with my Saviour and a chance to mull and meditate in an atmosphere away from my normal run of the mill. But no more on that theme.

Which leads to what the Camino is about. It could be a pilgrimage, a voyage of self-discovery, a chance to bond with other family members, a break from everyday life, a history tour, what have you. It's really a means to an end and , historically and for many still is, a pilgrimage to the Tomb of St James. Myself, I'm very concerned at it being seen as an end in itself, with a mystical, almost Holy quality. I think we are in danger sometimes of missing the purpose of the whole thing, and I'm not sure that the Camino itself hasn't become an object of worship for some.

Which gets to the concept of "pilgrimage" and arguments which sometimes surface as to who is and who isn't a "true" pilgrim. Pilgrimage has to do with conviction and commitment not with the method of transport used. The Camino, by whatever route, is a particular way of getting to Santiago de Compostela with an associated certificate at the end, but there are other equally valid paths of pilgrimage. In late 1948 a group of around 120 Spanish youth walked from Roncesvalles to Santiago backed by a support group. Subsequently there was a much larger youth pilgrimage to Santiago associated with post-war religious revival in Spain,
and from what I can gather many of them travelled by bus and train. there are much larger annual pilgrimages, to the Ganges, Mecca and in Japan, and pilgrims carry no odium by using modern transport.

I hope I haven't caused offence by any of this, but I do have some concerns occasionally about the direction things seem to be heading.

De colores

Bogong

 

[Satírico]

Well, what a wide-ranging discussion, and so many seemingly disparate views. And how interesting!

At the risk of making things even more complicated while trying to simplify things, here's something to chew on. Please forgive my execrable Spanish!

First "caminar" is the Spanish verb to walk. "El camino" means "the way" or "the walk". So "Me camino a Sydney para visitar a mi familia" is I'm walking to Sydney to visit my family. "Estoy en el camino" means I'm on the way. Now, "The Way" is the name of a film which was not specifically about any route, but rather about human discovery and relationships. That it featured parts of the Camino Frances so-called is neither here nor there. "El Camino de Santiago" simply means " The Way of St James".

Which leads into my worries about terms such as "The Camino provides". While some like to think of it in a benign sense there is also an inherent malevolence if we want to adhere to the term which I suspect is overlooked. It includes bad weather deaths on the Col , robbery, murder and assault, sickness and injury, bed bugs, robberies, Moor raiding parties etc going back centuries. You can't have one without the other. Personally, every morning I walk up to 10k through some lovely country and until I wrecked both my knees (before the Camino) I was an avid cross-country skier (almost certainly what wrecked my knees). Being on top of Mt Jagungal in Australia's Snowy Mountains at the same time I would otherwise have been in church was an uplifting experience even knowing that there was going to be some bruising when then going downhill over several hundred metres of steepish sheet ice. Equally I enjoyed and had uplifting experiences in Spain, even more so in Easter Week than on the Camino, but I wouldn't try to ascribe any mystical value to any of the particular places in question. Several friends have suffered quite serious injuries while skiing but this couldn't be blamed on any "malevolence" even though the snow conditions at the time may have been unstable. For me it was about personal communion with my Saviour and a chance to mull and meditate in an atmosphere away from my normal run of the mill. But no more on that theme.

Which leads to what the Camino is about. It could be a pilgrimage, a voyage of self-discovery, a chance to bond with other family members, a break from everyday life, a history tour, what have you. It's really a means to an end and , historically and for many still is, a pilgrimage to the Tomb of St James. Myself, I'm very concerned at it being seen as an end in itself, with a mystical, almost Holy quality. I think we are in danger sometimes of missing the purpose of the whole thing, and I'm not sure that the Camino itself hasn't become an object of worship for some.

Which gets to the concept of "pilgrimage" and arguments which sometimes surface as to who is and who isn't a "true" pilgrim. Pilgrimage has to do with conviction and commitment not with the method of transport used. The Camino, by whatever route, is a particular way of getting to Santiago de Compostela with an associated certificate at the end, but there are other equally valid paths of pilgrimage. In late 1948 a group of around 120 Spanish youth walked from Roncesvalles to Santiago backed by a support group. Subsequently there was a much larger youth pilgrimage to Santiago associated with post-war religious revival in Spain,
and from what I can gather many of them travelled by bus and train. there are much larger annual pilgrimages, to the Ganges, Mecca and in Japan, and pilgrims carry no odium by using modern transport.

I hope I haven't caused offence by any of this, but I do have some concerns occasionally about the direction things seem to be heading.

De colores

Bogong

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Plenty to chew on.

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Gesundheit!

Yeah, yo can eschew a lot of things around me except verbosity. Sacrilege !!! Mon dieu!!!

 

[JabbaPapa]

One of the things that's really beginning to bug me is the many references to 'the Camino' when talking about the Camino Frances - it's as though this trail is the only one of any real significance!

We "true pilgrims" anyway don't think of the Francès that way ...

 

[notion900]

I believe the correct verb for pilgrimage in English is 'make'. That's nice - it's something created rather than just done, or walked, or hiked or tramped or whatever. Spanish language doesn't distinguish between do and make, eg Gronze has a section Consejos para hacer el Camino de Santiago. So doing the way shouldn't be condemned!

@Marigold Mama did you see my response about looking small places up on Gronze - it is just perfect for that (I attach screen shot - buscar localidad means search for place). Don't be put off if you don't read Spanish, it's not needed because it's lists and maps:


And please don't be upset. One of the perils of this forum is that newbies come on and ask basic questions that have been asked many many times before, like how heavy a bag is too heavy, will I get bedbugs, is it hot, do I need a sleeping bag...... People are mostly very kind and patient, but occasionally their saintly nature gets a bit worn down. Maybe they had a bad day. One day soon I hope you'll be doling out the advice yourself so 'bear with' for now...

The only question that really gets my goat is 'How can I avoid the hard / boring bits'. The answer to which is, 'Go on vacation instead'.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

The only question that really gets my goat is 'How can I avoid the hard / boring bits'. The answer to which is, 'Go on vacation instead'.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

Yeah, yo can eschew a lot of things around me except verbosity. Sacrilege !!! Mon dieu!!!

Elucidate, man, elucidate!

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Elucidate, man, elucidate!

Exactly!

 

[Chuck Cunningham]

Thanks for opening this up for my two cents worth. Being new and never doing a camino or even being in Spain when some post a name of a village/town I haven't a clue which camino they are speaking of. Sure wish this would be taken into considerations.

While I am at this I might as well answer another previously post (Viranani) said about using the term "My Camino". I will continue to use such because it IS "My Camino"! no one is doing it for me and so I put claim to it as being mine. So if this is offensive I won't apologize. Let it go; let it be...

Right. Some people would bitch if you hung them with a new rope.

 

[BillyJane70]

I believe that people who are spiritually committed, and either participate or live in silent retreat, do so for an extremely significant reason: they know how overrated words are. Peace is derailed by words. How we verbally articulate our inner experience is rarely as important as how we walk our talk.

 

[Glenn Rowe]

I believe that people who are spiritually committed, and either participate or live in silent retreat, do so for an extremely significant reason: they know how overrated words are.

May I suggest a modification here? Words are the building-blocks of the human ability to communicate complex thoughts, procedures, directions, etc. from one person or group to another, even down through the corridors of time. As such, words form the very foundation of human society. And they're certainly fundamental to such venues as these Boards! So, I don't think they CAN be overrated.

I think a better way of expressing this to acknowledge that the human ability to utilize words through talking or writing is often inadequate to fully communicate things that reside in the Affective Realm (emotions/feelings). These obviously include spiritual and religious experiences.

Words are my stock-in-trade. So, if y'all think I'm being too picky, just slap my wrist and tell me to go stand in the corner...

 

[BillyJane70]

No slapping required But you have missed the intention behind my words....case in point. It was not that our ability to use words is inadequate to convey emotion or feelings. I was actually suggesting that people who choose less words, or none at all, understand that words are just one of many ways we can communicate. The hug, the smile, the silent prayer, the look, the holding of silent sacred space between people, the music, the artwork....all incredibly effective and powerful ways to communicate that which resides in the Affective Realm without words.

Santiago is calling most of us for a reason. Let us raise each other up on the journey forward with words of positivity and encouragement. Really...who cares how a town is spelt, or whether it's a walk, a hike, a skip, a jump, a ramble, a stroll?

 

[Glenn Rowe]

It was not that our ability to use words is inadequate to convey emotion or feelings. I was actually suggesting that people who choose less words, or none at all, understand that words are just one of many ways we can communicate. The hug, the smile, the silent prayer, the look, the holding of silent sacred space between people, the music, the artwork....all incredibly effective and powerful ways to communicate that which resides in the Affective Realm without words.

Many of us who use words also understand the power of non-verbal communication, and that in fact it composes more than 90% of the "total message." Glad to know we're in synch here. It's too bad that so much of the total message is lost to us in situations like this....

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Thank you @BillyJane70 and @Glenn Rowe for your considered comments - and there you have it, being able to accurately communicate in words what we feel or think is a fine thing to be able to accomplish, but often something that eludes us on occasions. Even the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote that: 'the limits of my language mean the limits of my world' consider that in the context of walking the CF with minimal grasp of the Spanish language! I like silence and solitude, and apart from the present 24/7 bleating of lambs, have plenty of both where I live, but I miss the daily verbal (as well as non-verbal) interaction with strangers or colleagues that was part of my former life in the city. We can't use non-verbal cues in our communications on the forum, so trying to find the right words to encourage, explain, describe, empathise or disagree without rancour with others here takes on an added importance. The efforts made here in choosing words that will not cause offence, alienate or cause anxiety is evident in most posts, but even the jokey, kindly-meant, yet provocative contributions challenging automatic defaults and taken-for-granted-assumptions are appreciated (well, by me for one) because it is an invitation to reflect and join in a conversation with people who have also walked, or are planning to walk the/any Camino. Some of us live in places where it is possible to go weeks without having face-to-face contact with our neighbours, either through urban or rural isolation, logging on to the forumcan be the equivalent to dropping in for a coffee with long-time friends. 'Words, words, words' is the title of this thread and the only ones that 'bug' me on this forum are those which are dismissive of others' opinions or feelings, but even then that might simply be an unintended clunkiness of expression and the moderators do a grand job in making this a safe and respectful forum for communication. But can someone please tell me where I find the spell-check facility on here?

 

[Kanga]

Loved your post @SEB and hope you join the conversation often.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Even the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote that: 'the limits of my language mean the limits of my world'

I think that's only true to a limited extent -- but it's a very interesting point.

The blind spot of most philosophers in this regard -- compared to for example linguists, or grammarians, clinical psychologists, literature guys, spiritual leaders, etc -- is precisely that they are rationalists ; which subsumes the assumption that thought, and therefore only performative language, constitutes the entirety of what could be termed as "understanding". It is an assumption that only the Nominalist, or positive-materialist, position can be considered as valid.

But this is not only to dismiss Perception itself, by attempting to diminish it into a mere "function" of rational cognition, in direct contradiction to its primary function as the source of all direct learning -- but it also diminishes the actual scope and versatility of language itself, which is no means limited by the assumptions belonging to any particular schools of philosophical thought.

If anything, I'd suggest the diametric opposite -- the openness of your world defines the doorways into your language.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

@JabbaPapa, thank you for a challenging start to the day! I would simply say that for me words used as doors to meaningful contact = good, words used as weapons or walls = bad.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

On a radio show I heard too long ago to remember details very well a woman told of having a stroke or something in which she totally lost her vocabulary. She could hear and make sounds but she was like a baby, words meant nothing to her. She described her experiences as totally awe inspiring but as she relearned how to think in words she went back to experiencing life in the old ways.

 

[TunaBlue5150]

I appreciate this point about arguments that generate more heat than light: not that generating heat is always a bad thing. There's surely no harm in seeking clarification from time to time, in order to better understanding. As Kathar1na writes, "Language develops continously, and the spoken language more quickly than accepted written language." We can't always know the full significance of words, whoever utters them.

Kahlil Gibran

You talk when you cease to be at peace with your thoughts;
And when you can no longer dwell in the solitude of your heart you live in your lips, and sound is a diversion and a pastime.
And in much of your talking, thinking is half murdered.
For thought is a bird of space, that in a cage of words may indeed unfold its wings but cannot fly.

There are those among you who seek the talkative through fear of being alone.
The silence of aloneness reveals to their eyes their naked selves and they would escape.
And there are those who talk, and without knowledge or forethought reveal a truth which they themselves do not understand.
And there are those who have the truth within them, but they tell it not in words.
In the bosom of such as these the spirit dwells in rhythmic silence.

When you meet your friend on the roadside or in the market place, let the spirit in you move your lips and direct your tongue.
Let the voice within your voice speak to the ear of his ear;
For his soul will keep the truth of your heart as the taste of the wine is remembered
When the colour is forgotten and the vessel is no more.