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I have used Booking.com for years for lodgings abroad, and this is often the case, especially in larger cities. It is nothing new, and I recall one of my earliest memories of the charge was in Lisbon in 2019.I remember Paris in particular because the room as such had been prepaid online and I had to pay the €2.88 separately when I checked in at reception. Is there a big deal being made about this? Of course not.
You are addressing an interesting aspect. Well, interesting to me anyway. The article and its attention-seeking headline is written for UK / English speaking readers. And the fact that numerous boards in the demonstration are written in English indicates also to whom it is addressed. Although I am not a native speaker of English I say with some confidence that the word "gringo" is more widely known than the word "guiri". We know what "gringo" means because we have been watching numerous movies of the US Western type. I at least had not been aware of the word "guiri" until I read about it on this forum.No reason to mention " gringos" in Alicante because the number of people from.the USA living in this province is in 32 position. First is United Kingdom.
Wgacchtalingbout WilisOne of my favourite songs ever! The Last Resort.
Correct. Pretty much everyone in UK knows what ‘Gringo’ means. Used extensively in many cartoon series when I was young. ‘Guiri’ is an unknown.You are addressing an interesting aspect. Well, interesting to me anyway. The article and its attention-seeking headline is written for UK / English speaking readers. And the fact that numerous boards in the demonstration are written in English indicates also to whom it is addressed. Although I am not a native speaker of English I say with some confidence that the word "gringo" is more widely known than the word "guiri". We know what "gringo" means because we have been watching numerous movies of the US Western type. I at least had not been aware of the word "guiri" until I read about it on this forum.
I bet if the article had been written for a Spanish audience, a different headline would have been chosen.
I am very much familiar with their channel be it that Barca is one of my ( and my wife's) fave vacation cities.Not sure if this will add anything new to this discussion but here it goes. This Kiwi, married to a Spaniard woman, has an excellent You Tube channel for those interested in Spain, so this is his perspective:
Chrissy 10 years ago there were no such beastI visited Venice ten years ago as a two day stop on a bus tour of Italy. If there were any special taxes and fees at that time, they were absorbed by the tour company.
I was called " gringo" in Chiapas ( Mexico). " Ustedes para ser gringos que bien hablan español"Correct. Pretty much everyone in UK knows what ‘Gringo’ means. Used extensively in many cartoon series when I was young. ‘Guiri’ is an unknown.
I have been called a Gringo many times in South America. Never in Spain.
Yes And south into Central America! I actually quite like it as it reminds me of my childhood!!I was called " gringo" in Chiapas ( Mexico). " Ustedes para ser gringos que bien hablan español"
Gringo - a foreignerNo reason to mention " gringos" in Alicante because the number of people from.the USA living in this province is in 32 position. First is United Kingdom.
Huh??? I recommend Wikipedia's Italian article on Tourist Tax for starters. This kind of tax on visitors has been around for a good one hundred years in Italy.Chrissy 10 years ago there were no such beast
Hechlk most of major European cities that were top tourist attractions wouldn't even DREAM of doing this! It's All part of (ahem!) New normal (post COVID)
One of the signs in one of the posted photos uses the word. This term, "gringo", is a negative (some say racist) term used throughout Latin America to refer to all white people regardless of their country of origin. It appears some people in Spain also use the word for a similar effect.No reason to mention " gringos" in Alicante because the number of people from.the USA living in this province is in 32 position. First is United Kingdom.
And your point is? There is clear reportage of protest and distress in many locations across Europe and elsewhere where modern tourism impacts adversely on the lives of the native, resident, population.I am sure it will play out big in the UK media this week. This weekend is the big ‘getaway’ when most of the schools finish so everyone is off to wherever at the weekend esp. Spain! So I would expect to see plenty of coverage as this is far ‘juicier’ than passport queues than have been the summer holiday nightmare story in the third week of July for the past few years. Anyway as my Indian mate who resides in Spain tells me that at least it has taken the pressure of migrants who often get the blame for lack of housing, so it’s not all bad. Send tourists to London. We will have them!!
I stay in accommodation booked thru either AirBNB or booking . Com for about 300 nights of the year but never really notice the tax proportion of it, unless I pay at check in and they specifically mention it. Airbnb is very itemised re with all the various fees and discounts listed. So I remember Rome for example. Quite a few places outside Europe too. Just focus on final price I guess even tho at the bottom end of market.
I am slightly loathe to get involved in the broader debate. I spend probably aprox. 40% of my time in Spain, but it is hard to get a view as an ‘outsider’ esp. when politics will play a part as it always does. Possibly a lot of the protesters are reasonably affluent and maybe the youth unemployment don’t have a voice. I don’t know but wouldn’t surprise me. Things are never as straightforward as they seem. It’s a global issue of course too. I would no more likely tell Americans how they solve their issues as folks from Barcelona. But I don’t like statements like ‘don’t book Airbnb’ which are the equivalent of me shouting out ‘don’t drive’, or ‘don’t eat meat! .
Cruise Ships are huge money as it has a huge American base and that’s where the money and consumption is.
I agree esp with the 2nd part. Reading through the thread I was thinking that clearly the main anger (as per these signs) is directed mainly towards US and UK tourists and yet... chances are there are enough Spaniards who are as just on a holiday and touristic through their own country as "the foreigners " are.One of the signs in one of the posted photos uses the word. This term, "gringo", is a negative (some say racist) term used throughout Latin America to refer to all white people regardless of their country of origin. It appears some people in Spain also use the word for a similar effect.
The use of that term (racist or not) should not cause a detour of this thread about the use of Airbnb or something similar and how they affect the local communities along the Camino
I am Spaniard and can say that gringo is no equal to foreigner in Spain. Normally the word " gringo" in Spain only comes out when talking about international conflicts when one part is not in favour of the US position.Gringo - a foreigner
a term used in Latin America or Spain to refer to a foreigner, especially one of U.S. or British descent (often used facetiously).
So it applies "correctly " so to speak
Well, I'd say that is a helpful rephrasing of your earlier "post-Covid" claim. Do I remember correctly, coming back from being in France, Italy and Switzerland means the TMB and the Alps? With the whole range of the Alps from France to the eastern ends of Germany and Austria being THE classical tourism region of Continental Europe? That's exactly where I remember being charged tourist taxes in inns and small hotels many decades ago ...I meant is that I sincerely do not remember paying any tax separately the way that it's now. If it was built into the price it was not noticeable. It probably still is there but now in addition to, there is this "extra" tax payable on arrival. I just came back from being in France, Italy and Switzerland and had to pay extra (city I believe they all said it was) tax in every hotel o stayed
Of course I am a contributor. I travel and I book accommodation. This is essentially a travel forum so we are all contributors, you me, and everyone else. Yep that includes you! That probably includes most of the protestors who I doubt stay out in Spain all year long. I am staying at an AIRBNB property in Germany tonight for 6 nights. Run by a poor family which needs some lunatic (i.e me!) to stay in the middle of nowhere and walk an hour to the station so they (I) can get the best price as they can’t afford a place in the city.And your point is? There is clear reportage of protest and distress in many locations across Europe and elsewhere where modern tourism impacts adversely on the lives of the native, resident, population.
From your post it looks like you are a contributor to the mess rather than offering any resolution.
Loads of mainland Spaniards live in the Canaries. The one hour time difference means a work from home employee whose office is in Madrid and is contracted 9-5 can work 8-4 and get out to the beach and surf. Was mobbed during Covid. A few must play that game in the USA? Have an east coast contract and work out west?I agree esp with the 2nd part. Reading through the thread I was thinking that clearly the main anger (as per these signs) is directed mainly towards US and UK tourists and yet... chances are there are enough Spaniards who are as just on a holiday and touristic through their own country as "the foreigners " are.
It is IMHO the whole AirBnB structure that's a problem....
Sure thanks! There was a ‘don’t book AirBnb’ comment this week, albeit on another thread about Barcelona.As to AirBnB and Spain and in particular people walking on a Camino de Santiago (and not the whole wide world):
First of all, unless I am mistaken, nobody made a statement like ‘don’t book Airbnb’. What I quoted from a DM article was this: Rethink whether it is ethical to stay on AirBnB, for example.
Secondly, yes, there may be a poor family in the middle of nowhere in Germany which needs tourists to stay in their home who walk an hour to the station because the family can’t afford a place in the city. How does this relate to Barcelona, Alicante and specifically to Santiago and other major towns on the Camino Francés? The poor don't rent out all or part of their property in these towns via AirBnB - they cannot afford to live in the town centres and suburbs, they cannot rent and the young cannot buy a home because of AirBnB effects.
So that's where one could rethink one's policy or strategy of finding a lodging - is it a small location full of empty private homes anyway? Or is it a location full of hotels and albergues that does not need to have private flats being reserved for renting by one day visitors or short term visitors?
Airbnb was launched in 2007. It operated like the familiar concept of bed and breakfast establishments, where the homeowner "lived" on the premises and rented out their extra bedrooms to tourists, etc. It now has evolved into something different, offering the whole home for a short term rent of a day or weeks, with no owner on site. Booking.com has similar offerings now with many apartments listed in cities on their website. I never considered how this practice pushes local residents out.First of all, unless I am mistaken, nobody made a statement like ‘don’t book Airbnb’. What I quoted from a DM article was this: Rethink whether it is ethical to stay on AirBnB, for example.
I guess it questions the authenticity of the protester. Seems very strange. Anyway they reached a new low today. It’s lunch time or dinner time somewhere so I won’t go into detail! .I think all of this discussion about gringo vs. guiri is interesting, but isn’t the most obvious and logical explanation of why the author of the article used “gringo” is because he/she was quoting the sign used by the protester in Alicante? Are people suggesting the author should have changed that term in the article because it isn’t common in Spain?
That thought occurred to me too, but the signs are in English after all. It’s obvious that the targets are English-speaking people, and the person carrying the sign probably thought that English speakers would be more likely to understand gringo than guiri.I guess it questions the authenticity of the protester.
Yes, as the Original Poster, sadly, I agree. My original post concerned Santiago and the immediate area specifically. Later, in post #26, I asked what I thought was a serious and legitimate question: How much sway does the Church have in problems of local housing? This was not intended to be a negative comment (in any manner) about the Church--just a simple question.I really hope the mods shut this thread down soon. It has no relevance to the pilgrim on the ways to Santiago. Though it might be of interest to holiday makers who discover that pubs, shops and restaurants in their chosen destinations are closed because they cannot get staff
According to the Santiago locals, it's big groups of pilgrims -- the ones who parade into town singing anthems, shouting slogans, blowing whistles and sometimes using bullhorns to celebrate their arrival. They often leave drifts of litter in their wake, choke up access to doorways, driveways and roads, and just generally make a nuisance of themselves.Short answer: highly unlikely. Barcelona is up there with Venice regarding saturation point from tourism. Tourists is one thing, pilgrims is another. Santiago has been welcoming pilgrims for decades. Barcelona gets “mass tourism,” a big difference.
@SBurgess, what influence does the church, “The Church” have on local politics, governance and the practical needs of the local community. None. Or at best very little. Individual priests and laity may do what they can but in most cities the local football club, car manufacturer or tourist bureau probably holds far more “sway” over what happens next. The rule of Caesar’s coin still appliesYes, as the Original Poster, sadly, I agree. My original post concerned Santiago and the immediate area specifically. Later, in post #26, I asked what I thought was a serious and legitimate question: How much sway does the Church have in problems of local housing? This was not intended to be a negative comment (in any manner) about the Church--just a simple question.
I would hope this thread can get back to the Camino and Santiago and how the problem of Airbnb and other such lodgings affect the local communities. Oh, yes, and also my question about the Church.
If this thread cannot get back to its original intent, shut it down--please. At present, it is no longer relevant.
actually funny you went that way. in my case Im on east coast and my co's HQs are on the west.Loads of mainland Spaniards live in the Canaries. The one hour time difference means a work from home employee whose office is in Madrid and is contracted 9-5 can work 8-4 and get out to the beach and surf. Was mobbed during Covid. A few must play that game in the USA? Have an east coast contract and work out west?
I cannot argue with a Spanish local nor do I want to because in some way - it is immaterial. I pulled the explanation from the Web and if its wrong - I won't lose any sleep over it. Anyone who wishes to call me a gringo are welcome to it (I have quite a thick skin and been called a lot worse than that in my life)I am Spaniard and can say that gringo is no equal to foreigner in Spain. Normally the word " gringo" in Spain only comes out when talking about international conflicts when one part is not in favour of the US position.
@Dani7 - I believe they do live in BarcelonaI highly recommend watching this video that explains in greater details all the issues at hand with tourism in spain and housing and issues with short term rentals. This gentleman puts together very intelligent, cohesive and well explained videos about all that is Spain. Not sure where he lives there with his wife who is a spaniard but it is over 12 years now. Really sheds some different light on many of the issues at hand.
That’s not in the pilgrim spirit is it. I guess the Camino is being popularized by a couple of films put out in recent years. That’s unfortunate. I’ve not seen what you describe Rebekah and yes, that sort of behaviour is bound to annoy not only the locals but other more earnest pilgrims who are a little more sensitive to their surroundings. It’s a great pity. I’ve seen similar bus loads arriving in other beautiful parts of Europe. I guess with cheap travel it’s almost inevitable.According to the Santiago locals, it's big groups of pilgrims -- the ones who parade into town singing anthems, shouting slogans, blowing whistles and sometimes using bullhorns to celebrate their arrival. They often leave drifts of litter in their wake, choke up access to doorways, driveways and roads, and just generally make a nuisance of themselves.
And they bring their own lunches, and jump on a bus to go home, so therefore don't spend much money in town to make themselves worth tolerating.
Santiago is not just a provincial capital. It is the capital of Galicia, a region that has four provinces. A Coruña is just a provincial capital.Everybody in the world has heard of Barcelona. Barcelona gets Millions of tourists a year. Santiago is just a provincial capital and most people I mentioned it to unless they happen to have read about the Camino have no idea what I'm tatalking about.
Yes, as the Original Poster, sadly, I agree. My original post concerned Santiago and the immediate area specifically. Later, in post #26, I asked what I thought was a serious and legitimate question: How much sway does the Church have in problems of local housing? This was not intended to be a negative comment (in any manner) about the Church--just a simple question.
I would hope this thread can get back to the Camino and Santiago and how the problem of Airbnb and other such lodgings affect the local communities. Oh, yes, and also my question about the Church.
If this thread cannot get back to its original intent, shut it down--please. At present, it is no longer relevant.
Well, the word provincial does not only have a geographical meaning. I meant Santiago is provincial in relation to Barcelona. But really, I just meant that it's a much smaller city. And not on tourist radars like Barcelona.Santiago is not just a provincial capital. It is the capital of Galicia, a region that has four provinces. A Coruña is just a provincial capital.
This thread has me a bit trepidatious also. I am flying into Barcelona next month and immediately grabbing the train to Zaragoza to begin walking there. What am I getting myself into?I must admit, reading messages like these in the forums has truly dampened my enthusiasm for walking the Camino Frances, to the point where I'm re-considering going at all. I still have a little over a month to cancel my plans before the financial penalties become painful, but it might actually be the best course of action.
Santiago has a higher tourist/ inhabitant rate than Barcelona.Well, the word provincial does not only have a geographical meaning. I meant Santiago is provincial in relation to Barcelona. But really, I just meant that it's a much smaller city. And not on tourist radars like Barcelona.
Galicia is an autonomous community with four provinces. That was something I didn't know because I've never heard the phrase "autonomous community" which seems to be specific to Spain. Good to know, thanks.
It is as safe now as it ever was. I have lived here for 18 years and have yet to hear about a lone pilgrim being accosted by a local, even a protesting local. It's the big, rowdy groups who get them so upset in Santiago. By all means, come on over and walk. You will marvel at how quiet it is, outside the cities.This thread has me a bit trepidatious also. I am flying into Barcelona next month and immediately grabbing the train to Zaragoza to begin walking there. What am I getting myself into?
This is my (apparently greedy tourist) fourth Camino, and likely my last. I try to stay in albergues (muni, private or otherwise) or hostals, but sometimes hotels are the only accommodations I can find. Most of the time, I book ahead (please no judgement, I am an anxious person), and can only book what is available. I even try to book directly (not through the .com) and that may or may not work. I try to keep my tourist footprint small.
All this to ask: Is it still safe? I guess I am just looking for reassurance...
Yes, it’s safe. I was in Zaragoza last month and saw one Peregrino. Walking the Ebro?This thread has me a bit trepidatious also. I am flying into Barcelona next month and immediately grabbing the train to Zaragoza to begin walking there. What am I getting myself into?
This is my (apparently greedy tourist) fourth Camino, and likely my last. I try to stay in albergues (muni, private or otherwise) or hostals, but sometimes hotels are the only accommodations I can find. Most of the time, I book ahead (please no judgement, I am an anxious person), and can only book what is available. I even try to book directly (not through the .com) and that may or may not work. I try to keep my tourist footprint small.
All this to ask: Is it still safe? I guess I am just looking for reassurance...
If you are staying in Albergue and small, family run Hostal and hotels then you are not part of the problem. The issue from Barcelona to the Balearics and beyond is that local people are being squeezed out of the market by commercial landlords acquiring and letting “holiday” apartments and the consequent slow death of communitiesThis thread has me a bit trepidatious also. I am flying into Barcelona next month and immediately grabbing the train to Zaragoza to begin walking there. What am I getting myself into?
This is my (apparently greedy tourist) fourth Camino, and likely my last. I try to stay in albergues (muni, private or otherwise) or hostals, but sometimes hotels are the only accommodations I can find. Most of the time, I book ahead (please no judgement, I am an anxious person), and can only book what is available. I even try to book directly (not through the .com) and that may or may not work. I try to keep my tourist footprint small.
All this to ask: Is it still safe? I guess I am just looking for reassurance...
That figure seems mind-bogglingly high. Almost half the apartments in Barcelona?in Barcelona this went up to 42%! That is 1 in every 2 or 3 homes!
Well, if that's the case, maybe there will be big protests in Santiago. When I was there in May 2024, it did seem unpleasantly crowded in the center.Santiago has a higher tourist/ inhabitant rate than Barcelona.
Up to Logrono, yes! And thank you!Yes, it’s safe. I was in Zaragoza last month and saw one Peregrino. Walking the Ebro?
It says so in the linked article: From the portal inmobiliario Idealista.where those figures came from
No. The figure of 42% is not 42% of the total number of apartments in Barcelona. It is 42% of the offer of real estate in Barcelona that came to the market during the second quarter of 2024. 42% of this total was offered for seasonal rent in Barcelona.That figure seems mind-bogglingly high. Almost half the apartments in Barcelona?
I just checked that fifteen US states (Maine included) have less population than Galicia (2.850.000)Well, if that's the case, maybe there will be big protests in Santiago. When I was there in May 2024, it did seem unpleasantly crowded in the center.
Maybe what will happen is at some point in the future there'll be a couple-year recession and some of those apartments everywhere will convert back into long-term rentals. As I said earlier, this is a problem that impacts me where I live as well. My US state (Maine) of 1.2 million people gets over 20 million tourists a year.
Such schemes exist near where I live. There's an island off the coast of Maine called Monhegan. There's a land trust that owns houses, and when the houses are sold, you can only make a small profit. I think it's because the trusts own the land under the house and it's in the deed.So let’s say we limited property profits to no more than 100% adjusted for inflation. So the most you could sell your property for would be £120k. Young folks could then buy places and ladder climbers could move on too! Won’t happen of course, homeowners are too greedy, but a thought! Would anyone forego the profit on their property for the greater good? Just a thought albeit with lots of caveats.
This is the only way to solve the problem. But greed will prevent it. Not a fair and human-friendly world, I know.The houses can't be sold as second homes. They have to be your primary residence. And their hope is to attract younger families.
Ah interesting and thank you. It’s a pipe dream globally of course, certainly at the moment. But who knows!Such schemes exist near where I live. There's an island off the coast of Maine called Monhegan. There's a land trust that owns houses, and when the houses are sold, you can only make a small profit. I think it's because the trusts own the land under the house and it's in the deed.
It's a little hard to understand how it works, but a friend of mine bought one of those houses many years ago, and although she can sell it, her profit is limited to a few percentage points a year (possibly tied to inflation).
A house that's part of this program sells for around US$200,000. The houses on the island that are not part of this program sell for closer to $1 million.
The houses can't be sold as second homes. They have to be your primary residence. And their hope is to attract younger families.
I would imagine this would be pretty difficult to popularize elsewhere.
Monhegan Island Sustainable Community Association - Island Institute
Monhegan Island Sustainable Community Association, or MISCA, is a combination of a land trust and an affordable housing organization. On Monhegan, wherewww.islandinstitute.org
Yes I would love to ban second homes and profiteering by home owners. Be interesting to see how the situ develops.This is the only way to solve the problem. But greed will prevent it. Not a fair and human-friendly world, I know.
Agreed. Pilgrims are not causing the problem. Tourists are. I have the belief that the Spanish also know that. Hoverer, to respond to the OP, if pilgrims start using AirBnB in Santiago, it may become a pilgrim problem there.A pilgrim who accepts rather than requires. They’re not part of the problem.
I strongly doubt we will ever see signs in Galicia saying "pilgrims go home". Because that's exactly what pilgrims arriving in Santiago wish to do: go home.I was in Spain for two months in 2019. In Girona I saw only a few tourists, but there was a giant banner hung across the center of town that in English only said they wanted tourists to leave because they were taking all the housing. In Santiago after a month of walking in the summer heat there was graffiti in multiple places, again only in English, that said "tourists go home". It was really deflating. Pilgrims have come there for a century.
I hope Spain comes up with a way to manage tourist numbers BEFORE people arrive and spend thousands of dollars there. It was really a hard on my heart part of the trip.
I went to Portugal for a month after the Camino and the first morning I went looking for a coffee and there was a big graffiti sign outside that said, "welcome tourists". I almost cried.
Blimey 1.5 %. I was expecting maybe 5 %. Great detective work! Happy and reassuring to see such a small number! A lesson learnt for all of I guess. .Since I've just discovered this I'll share it: There is an Observatorio del Alquiler. This Rental Observatory for Spain proposes to provide rigorous, complete and regular information, with an analysis of the state of the rental market in Spain and a historical view of its trend. I am sure that it is a useful tool to gain insight about the actual situation in Spain, in the provinces, and in the cities and towns before proposing solutions.
Concerning Santiago, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, a major issue, according to current news and social media activists, are the large and noisy groups of foot pilgrims who enter the town through the San Pedro suburb and the Rúa de San Pedro with chanting, singing, shouting and musical accompaniment, especially during the summer months. And that's not an issue that is shared by Barcelona, Venice or Alicante.
As to Barcelona, here is a reality check: 50% of the properties (appartments, houses, etc) are owned by those who live in it; 25% is rented; 6% has other arrangements than being owner or tenant; 15% are secondary homes and only 1,5% of the real estate of Barcelona (appartments, houses, etc) are tourist rentals. Source: Porcentaje de viviendas por régimen de tenencia en Barcelona. Read the news carefully before jumping to conclusions.
These statistics don't sound quite as awful as I'd thought. It now has me wondering why the big protest march in Barcelona and Alicante. Possibly the locals in particular are just plain tired of all the throngs of tourists that are increasing each year, making their lives less peaceful, unless they are a business owner enjoying profits of sales.As to Barcelona, here is a reality check: 50% of the properties (appartments, houses, etc) are owned by those who live in it; 25% is rented; 6% has other arrangements than being owner or tenant; 15% are secondary homes and only 1,5% of the real estate of Barcelona (appartments, houses, etc) are tourist rentals. Source: Porcentaje de viviendas por régimen de tenencia en Barcelona. Read the news carefully before jumping to conclusions.
It's not detective work. It's just reading.Blimey 1.5 %. I was expecting maybe 5 %. Great detective work!
Things get whipped up I guess. Hysteria sells! It’s a good and very visual story. I’ve certainly clicked a few times. It reminds me very much of the immigration reporting by the UK media. >99% of the coverage is focused on <1% of the immigrants, namely the ones that come over on small boats without prior approval. People get whipped up beyond belief. ‘Taking our houses,, our jobs, and our doctors appointments’, whereas the real debate should about the bigger picture.These statistics don't sound quite as awful as I'd thought. It now has me wondering why the big protest march in Barcelona and Alicante. Possibly the locals in particular are just plain tired of all the throngs of tourists that are increasing each year, making their lives less peaceful, unless they are a business owner enjoying profits of sales.
I spent several days in Barcelona before a cruise. I can see where stops on cruise ships would be a huge annoyance to those who live there.
I met an Italian man from Venice on my Camino in 2015 and when I mentioned to him he lived in such a beautiful unique city, he replied "Not with all the tourists we have to put up with". I can only imagine how busy it is now, nearly nine years later.
Sure! Sorry I was using detective as slang. Anyone who by any means get to the numbers! Old work phrase! Sure not expecting too much correlation across the barrios, but still 1.5% is a very powerful number.It's not detective work. It's just reading.
1.5% for all of Barcelona does not tell you, for example, that the relevant numbers amount to 12% in some barrios of Barcelona and to 0.3% in other barrios (as % of all rented accommodation In Barcelona) or range from 0.08% to 4% (as % of all accommodation in Barcelona). That's on the website, too.
For similar reasons, the fact that Santiago has a higher tourist/inhabitant rate than Barcelona as mentioned earlier does not necessairly mean that there will be big protests coming to Santiago that are similar to Barcelona as presumed in another post. Tourists don't spread out evenly across a town or city. There is concentration in specific areas like the Old Town and similar locations.
I suspect that's it to an extent. Also, there are probably just overall housing shortages and increasing prices in Barcelona ( and other popular cities worldwide) for a multiplicity of reasons. That said, I found the Rambla and central Barcelona irritatingly crowdedThese statistics don't sound quite as awful as I'd thought. It now has me wondering why the big protest march in Barcelona and Alicante. Possibly the locals in particular are just plain tired of all the throngs of tourists...
A Pilgrim walking to Santiago, staying in Albergue, Hostales, Pensiones. A pilgrim walking to Santiago spending their money in all those lovely little shops, bars and meson. A pilgrim who accepts rather than requires. They’re not part of the problem.
I think the answer is probably much more nuanced than pilgrims good, tourists bad.Agreed. Pilgrims are not causing the problem. Tourists are. I have the belief that the Spanish also know that. Hoverer, to respond to the OP, if pilgrims start using AirBnB in Santiago, it may become a pilgrim problem there.
I find it hard to believe too. I was just quoting that news article. Didn't do any research myself. Can imagine though they are talking about the city center.That figure seems mind-bogglingly high. Almost half the apartments in Barcelona?
I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. It's difficult to research in English. But there are 1.7 million people in Barcelona. So let's say there's a .5 million residences? So more than 200,000 tourist apartments? Or maybe that 42% figure is for the central tourist district?
I'm not trying to disagree with you, but I'm interested in where those figures came from. I would be marching in my streets if 42% of the apartments in my city were short-term rentals for tourists!
Ah, thanks for correcting me!It says so in the linked article: From the portal inmobiliario Idealista.
No. The figure of 42% is not 42% of the total number of apartments in Barcelona. It is 42% of the offer of real estate in Barcelona that came to the market during the second quarter of 2024. 42% of this total was offered for seasonal rent in Barcelona.
The full list for the 52 Spanish towns is here (Santiago de Compostela is not in the list, for obvious reasons):
https://www.idealista.com/news/inmo...e-dispara-un-55-y-la-permanente-se-hunde-otro
Attacking your own! Tut,tut!Well, my friends, this thread may not have answered my initial question on the effects of tourism/pilgrims on Santiago, but it certainly has initiated interesting comments.
Like Kathar1na, I prefer to read local news. This type of news usually reflects a truer view of local perspectives on local issues. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any English-language news sites for Santiago.
So... here is another view of Pilgrims and their effect on the Camino. Much to my dismay, it exposes some ugly Americans.
Conflicting Times on the Camino de Santiago
As increasing numbers of pilgrims walk the Camino de Santiago in Europe, local communities feel the pressure to keep up.www.sapiens.org
Thanks for putting that number in the proper context. The article also makes the important observation about the rate of increase of the “seasonal rentals.” I think that could also be fueling a lot of the protests, because the trends are pretty staggering.No. The figure of 42% is not 42% of the total number of apartments in Barcelona. It is 42% of the offer of real estate in Barcelona that came to the market during the second quarter of 2024. 42% of this total was offered for seasonal rent in Barcelona.
Lots of interesting figures for sure! I was struck by the 15% secondary home figure. That’s a lot of property.Thanks for putting that number in the proper context. The article also makes the important observation about the rate of increase of the “seasonal rentals.” I think that could also be fueling a lot of the protests, because the trends are pretty staggering.
Málaga has 99% more than last year, Bilbao (73%), Palma (72%), Valencia (70%), Sevilla (63%), Madrid (53%), Barcelona (48%), Alicante (22%) and San Sebastián (21%).
And one last point — the 42% figure also makes an impact when you put it in the context of the increases over the past year. Think about someone who is new to Barcelona and looking for a place to live, or has to find a new place to live. That person is going to find that 42% of the available places are for seasonal rentals, and that person is also going to find that it is much more difficult this year than last year to find a place to rent because of the pace of increase in seasonal rentals.
Whatever the total percentage of seasonal rentals in any urban housing market, I think there’s no doubt that people are responding to a real and significant trend that is making it much more difficult to find rental housing, and even more difficult to find affordable rental housing.
It is possible that locals in the big cities: Pamplona, Burgos, León and of course Santiago confuse pilgrims with tourists, although I would think a backpack, sticks and a general disheveled appearence give us away easily. But in the other hundreds of small villages Caminos go through, there is no tourism whatsoever and the pilgrim influx breathes life into the España Vaciada (empty Spain).I suspect that's it to an extent. Also, there are probably just overall housing shortages and increasing prices in Barcelona ( and other popular cities worldwide) for a multiplicity of reasons. That said, I found the Rambla and central Barcelona irritatingly crowded
Protesting tourists is an easy answer to a complicated problem.
I don't like how my quiet town is overrun by tourists in the summer, but I also know that my main street wouldn't have the year-round vibrancy without that big injection of money each summer.
I think the answer is probably much more nuanced than pilgrims good, tourists bad.
I doubt that most Spaniards living along the Camino Frances are making a real distinction between whether you are a pilgrim or a tourist. Certainly, if you were behaving appropriately, you're not irritating anyone, but sometimes it's just a low-level irritation because it's so crowded. And people from elsewhere are easy targets to blame for larger problems.
Except for those who are sad that their Camino is over and wish they could keep walking, or those who intend to walk on to Finisterre and/or Muxia. There are a few that are not eager to get back to their busy lives at home.I strongly doubt we will ever see signs in Galicia saying "pilgrims go home". Because that's exactly what pilgrims arriving in Santiago wish to do: go home.
Of course, the dreaded post-Camino blues. Which keep so many of us returning to haunt Spain year after year.Except for those who are sad that their Camino is over and wish they could keep walking, or those who intend to walk on to Finisterre and/or Muxia. There are a few that are not eager to get back to their busy lives at home.
I remember when albergues needed pilgrims. They even resorted to dirty tricks to get them (false yellow arrows). The number of pilgrims so far this year is greater than for an entire year a decade ago! Like the hills, it is a bit of a sine wave. The huge crowd this year will return home and bad mouth the experience. Enthusiasm will wane. Barcelona will holster the water pistols and do a scientific analysis of tourism and income. Airbnbs will become unprofitable and come on the market at desperation prices.I strongly doubt we will ever see signs in Galicia saying "pilgrims go home". Because that's exactly what pilgrims arriving in Santiago wish to do: go home.
False yellows arrows? Really!!I remember when albergues needed pilgrims. They even resorted to dirty tricks to get them (false yellow arrows). The number of pilgrims so far this year is greater than for an entire year a decade ago! Like the hills, it is a bit of a sine wave. The huge crowd this year will return home and bad mouth the experience. Enthusiasm will wane. Barcelona will holster the water pistols and do a scientific analysis of tourism and income. Airbnbs will become unprofitable and come on the market at desperation prices.
Etc.
Abide.
Yes, that is occasionally true, done to direct pilgrims a bit off trail to their own establishments.False yellows arrows? Really!!
Yes. An old trick. And still happening from time to time - a number of Spanish news websites reported one incident of the sort in the past couple of weeks.False yellows arrows? Really!!
Oh yes!False yellows arrows? Really!!
When I lived in Wales for a few months (renting a room from a friend of a friend) the most notable thing was that the pub never shut!Who knows how the times go. When I had my farm in Wales most of my neighbours were very happy to sell their Tyn’s and Plas’s to the “idiot” outsiders who’d pay at least twice what it was worth, maybe three times if it had a nice view. The shopkeepers and publicans rubbed their hands in glee. Daft foreigners moving in and with money in their pockets!!
Well, the last pub in the valley closed 10 years ago now. The butcher and baker lasted a bit longer. Even the grocer’s van doesn’t bother those steep and winding roads anymore. The holiday makers unload their groceries brought from home. There’s scarcely a light to be seen in the valley on a winter’s night. Xept Christmas week of course and even then the bloody tree comes in a snug wrap from Waitrose in Worplesdon. Oh, and the last few still working the land live in crumbling caravans out of sight of any one that might get offended.
So, at the risk of offending just about everyone: you are only part of the problem if you are part of the problem.
A Pilgrim walking to Santiago, staying in Albergue, Hostales, Pensiones. A pilgrim walking to Santiago spending their money in all those lovely little shops, bars and meson. A pilgrim who accepts rather than requires. They’re not part of the problem.
But next time you find that perfect country cottage for your R&R…….
Maybe (because the housing shortage seems to be worldwide) it could be Air BnB that’s the problem. All the places that are now Air BnB used to be long term rentals.The problem is not the consequences for the visitors but the problems for the inhabitants of the cities that receive many visitors(the sparce houses that are rented to tourists via Air B&B, the crowds and so on)
"Airbnb doesn't allow properties to be rented out for more than 90 nights per year. If your limit for bookings is reached, Airbnb will automatically close your property until the end of the calendar year. In addition to 90 consecutive days, the 90-day limit also applies to 90 days spread throughout the year."Maybe (because the housing shortage seems to be worldwide) it could be Air BnB that’s the problem. All the places that are now Air BnB used to be long term rentals.
Where do you hear that?"Airbnb doesn't allow properties to be rented out for more than 90 nights per year. If your limit for bookings is reached, Airbnb will automatically close your property until the end of the calendar year. In addition to 90 consecutive days, the 90-day limit also applies to 90 days spread throughout the year."
The economics and profit to an individual property owner are quite complex. Being a landlord may be the worst avocation in the world!
Greater London introduced a 90 days rule for AirBnB rentals. Other towns and regions around the world introduced similar limits. It is not universal. I don’t think that it applies to Santiago. Or Barcelona for that matter. For anyone interested in limits in a particular town or region and for location-specific law, I’d suggest to just google it.Where do you hear that?
A bit off topic for most folks....but....@falcon269...is that really you?Looking for rationality in gut reactions is futile. This too will pass. You are right; just abide.
I'm quite sure the many residents protesting in Barcelona, or anywhere along the Camino (including Santiago) will not describe the housing prices and shortage for local and permanent residents to the likes of Airbnb's, etc. will describe their actions as hysteria.thank you for calming the hysteria!
I don't detect much hysteria. Just individual extrapolation and generalisation where it is difficult to say whether it is imaginary or has some base in facts and reality. What I do see is a cacophony of links from the internet and comments and opinions, which, while interesting, appear to be barely or not at all related to the specific situation of Santiago de Compostela and Galicia as a tourist destination. Of which we appear to know little.calming the hysteria!
Thank you! Agreed. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I was talking ‘hysteria’ from a UK media standpoint. Maybe that wasn’t the right word but I had lunch with a Spanish couple yesterday (from Malaga) and they used the word ‘hysteria’ which suprised me but they used to live in London so know the word. UK media nowadays is largely driven by hysteria.I don't detect much hysteria. Just individual extrapolation and generalisation where it is difficult to say whether it is imaginary or has some base in facts and reality. What I do see is a cacophony of links from the internet and comments and opinions, which, while interesting, appear to be barely or not at all related to the specific situation of Santiago de Compostela and Galicia as a tourist destination. Of which we appear to know little.
Take the newest example: A long quote from a US Legal Forms website about a 90 days rule concerning AirBnB that does not apply to Spain or to Santiago or to Barcelona. The net quickly delivers confirmation that such a rule exists, not only in parts of the USA but also in Europe, namely in London. However, the London rule applies only to lets of "whole properties", i.e. whole flats or houses, and not to a room or two within someone's apartment [aka as flat] for example. And anyway, while issues are similar in many cities, the housing market in the UK, especially in London and the South East, is complex and significantly different from Spain.
Then another long quote from a New York Times article from three years ago about Barcelona and their then new "ban, which took effect on Aug. 6 [2021 and] sets Barcelona apart as the only major city in Europe to have forbidden short-term private room rentals, even as it continues to allow the renting of entire apartments — so long as the owner of the property holds the appropriate license." It is actually a long and detailed article about the developments in Barcelona but there is no mention of Santiago and of the specific problems that Santiago has or may have in the future and how they tackle them.
What transpires from these linked articles is the fact that this is mainly a question of legislation and regularisation of the local housing markets and employment markets by the local administrations - and this includes detection and elimination of illegal and unlicensed lettings to tourists. There is little if anything that the one-day pilgrim visitor can do in the respect.
I have used Airbnb a fair bit though booking . com are my ‘go to’. Currently staying in one in the German countryside for 7 nights. I tend to use them for longer stays of one week up to one month, though I do have a 6 month booking with them next summer. Hugely variable from someone’s spare room to a private home. Let’s see it plays out I guess. Thanks for wading through the quagmire.As to AirBnb and Santiago and the Camino, imho, there, too, the thread would benefit from a more nuanced discussion. I've noticed that there have been comments by forum members who stayed in AirBnB along the Camino and/or in Santiago.
I myself once used AirBnB to find a room during Semana Santa in Burgos when all the hotels appeared to be full or hideously expensive. In this case it was a couple who offered two bedrooms in their third floor apartment in the Cathedral area on AirBnB. So there is already a difference between letting stand-alone apartments and rooms within one's own living quarters. The latter is similar to staying "chez l'habitant" in France or "Zimmer Frei" in the German and Austrian Alps. Customs that are more than half a century old and were well established long before the arrival of AirBnB.
Then there are the half deserted villages along the Camino, especially in Galicia and in parts of Castilla y Leon where houses are empty or perhaps owned by erstwhile villagers who have moved to Madrid or Barcelona [sic] for better employment opportunities and have renovated the family home in the village to stay there during the summer. I can't imagine that there is any "touristic pressure" on the housing market in these villages where Camino pilgrims quickly pass through or stay for just one night.
You are right. The topic has disappeared for the time being in the UK media (which is often the main source for articles in the global English language news media) and it is currently replaced by other big news. Best headline I saw so far: "Computer says no".It’s the big getaway weekend to Spain in the UK (IT permitting) so was expecting some coverage but nothing so far. Not surprising I guess.
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