What's so special about SJPP?

[MaxHelado]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

 

[Bradypus]

I think mostly because Don Elias Valina chose it as the starting point for his newly mapped and signposted route in the 1980s. Before that walking pilgrims to Santiago made up their own routes and setting-off points. What interests me more is why SJPDP has become the de facto starting point for most international long-distance Camino Frances pilgrims when Don Elias made it the second option in his famous guidebook - he actually describes the Somport route as his first option. I think that accessibility may have a lot to do with it: it's so much easier to get to!

 

[J Willhaus]

I don't agree that it is easier to get to. Seems like an equal amount of flights, trains, buses to bothe SJPDP and Somport. It's a cute town, though.

 

[Bradypus]

I don't agree that it is easier to get to. Seems like an equal amount of flights, trains, buses to bothe SJPDP and Somport. It's a cute town, though.

You can be off an international flight in Biarritz and arrive in SJPDP in a couple of hours by public transport for about 12 euro if your timing is right. And less time but slightly more money if you book with Express Bourricot. Much harder to do that with Somport.

 

[Anhalter]

Good question. I always thought, it might be, in a pseudo-historical context, that 3 of the 4 main routes thru France meet in SJPDP. But I have no idea if thats correct. Might be they met somewhere else, say, 200 years ago.
Curious if someone will provide more accurate information...

 

[goldie from aus]

he actually describes the Somport route as his first option. I think that accessibility may have a lot to do with it: it's so much easier to get to!

B, do you know why the Somport was his first option!

 

[buridan]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

It doesn't it starts when you leave home, sjpp is just a 20th century convention to organize tourism, you literally can start anywhere in europe

 

[MaxHelado]

Interesting. The idea that this holy pilgrimage begins in a place where a bloke with a yellow arrow and a mallet said “this’ll do” has great appeal to me!

 

[Pafayac]

that 3 of the 4 main routes thru France meet in SJPDP

No, these 3 routes (Via Podiensis, Via Turonensis and Via Lemovicensis) meet in Ostabat, a step before. But SJPP is much more accessible.
I think it is useless to search an historical reason. The Camino as we know it today hold many other reasons (tourism, finance, economy, hiking...) which are more important than history...

 

[goldie from aus]

Interesting. The idea that this holy pilgrimage begins in a place where a bloke with a yellow arrow and a mallet said “this’ll do” has great appeal to me!

Yes, but why?.

 

[Pafayac]

The idea that this holy pilgrimage begins in a place where a bloke with a yellow arrow

It does not: in France, yellow arrows are not used. GR signs (red and white) are used instead, at least for Via Podiensis, because the GR65 takes the same way than it.
If I remember, the first yellow arrow can be seen after Roncesvalles...

 

[goldie from aus]

No, these 3 routes (Via Podiensis, Via Turonensis and Via Lemovicensis) meet in Ostabat, a step before. But SJPP is much more accessible.
I think it is useless to search an historical reason. The Camino as we know it today hold many other reasons (tourism, finance, economy, hiking...) which are more important than history...

For the individual, I beg to differ. Respectfully that is.

 

[Bradypus]

B, do you know why the Somport was his first option!

I don't know for sure but he mentions that the Somport route is the one described in the Codex Calixtinus which was the first medieval "guide book" for the Camino. Perhaps he felt that gave it some historical precedence.

 

[J Willhaus]

You can be off an international flight in Biarritz and arrive in SJPDP in a couple of hours by public transport for about 12 euro if your timing is right. And less time but slightly more money if you book with Express Bourricot. Much harder to do that with Somport.

Yes, probably from the UK, you are right. From where I live it takes several plane hops to get anywhere in Europe.

 

[Bradypus]

Good question. I always thought, it might be, in a pseudo-historical context, that 3 of the 4 main routes thru France meet in SJPDP. But I have no idea if thats correct. Might be they met somewhere else, say, 200 years ago.
Curious if someone will provide more accurate information...

Those three historical routes met up at Ostabat which is about 20km north-east of SJPDP. My best guess is that Ostabat is a much more difficult place to get to and had little infrastructure for modern pilgrims. SJPDP had the advantages of being on one of the historical paths, had good transport links, and was large enough to provide practical support for pilgrims beginning their journey there.

 

[Pafayac]

I don't know for sure but he mentions that the Somport route is the one described in the Codex Calixtinus which was the first medieval "guide book" for the Camino.

Code Calixtinus tells about the 4 routes (Podiensis, Turonensis, Lemovicensis and Tolosana): it does not give precedence to one or another. It is more attached to sanctuaries and relics than to routes themselves. As @buridan has stated: in the past, the Camino started from home. Today, spanish pilgrims name "True Way" the way which starts from home.

 

[Bradypus]

Code Calixtinus tells about the 4 routes (Podiensis, Turonensis, Lemovicensis and Tolosana): it does not give precedence to one or another.

That is true but in Don Elias's guidebook he specifically links the Somport route with the Codex Calixtinus but does not link it to the Roncesvalles paths. No idea why but it is the case.

Correction - just looked again and Don Elias does link the Roncevalles route with the Codex Calixtinus. I did not read far enough into the text to check properly. Apologies.

 

[David Tallan]

I think mostly because Don Elias Valina chose it as the starting point for his newly mapped and signposted route in the 1980s. Before that walking pilgrims to Santiago made up their own routes and setting-off points. What interests me more is why SJPDP has become the de facto starting point for most international long-distance Camino Frances pilgrims when Don Elias made it the second option in his famous guidebook - he actually describes the Somport route as his first option. I think that accessibility may have a lot to do with it: it's so much easier to get to!

If you look carefully, Don Elias starts it in Ostabat in his map of the whole Camino (p.9 in my copy). In the text, when he gets around to that route, he first shows a map of SJPDP but the text starts with Ostabat and the close up map of SJPDP shows the route entering from Ostabat and Sta. Palais.

 

[Kathor1]

I think that there are a number of reasons for the place that SJPP has gained in contemporary Camino walking. In no particular order:

• The initial impetus for the contemporary revival of the Camino de Santiago came from France, which means that they naturally crossed the border between France and Spain; these pioneers did start from home or from major towns in France.
• Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port had been a popular destination long before the Camino revival (it has mountains, hills, pretty scenery, clean air), so there was already infrastructure in place.
• The Ways of Saint James are regarded as a thing of European history, so it would not fit this narrative if they started in Roncesvalles or Jaca or on the Somport pass.
• The Somport pass is considerably higher than the Roncesvalles passes. Weather! Walkabiity!
• Probably every Frenchman and every fourth other European had heard of Roncevaux long before they heard of Camino Walking so it is not surprising that Roncesvalles ought to be on their way.
• Normally, a long-distance walker whose main aim is to reach a destination would cross a mountain range where it is easiest which nowadays would speak against the passes of Somport, Roncesvalles and Baztan because the physically easiest way to cross into Spain is near the sea. However, crossing at higher altitude is perceived as more spectacular. (It is.)
• If you want to start closer to your destination but still cross the Pyrenees, then I think for any person on the Continent the easiest Pyrenees location that could be reached by public transport was SJPP. Dirt cheap flights to Biarritz started to appear fairly late on the scene. By that time, many guidebooks for a Camino Francés that starts in SJPP had been written and SJPP had gained its status as a 'traditional' starting point.
• The Somport pass and the Cize (Roncesvalles) passes are the only ones listed in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus. None of the dozens of other passes in the Pyrenees are mentioned. Perhaps because the presumed author of Book V came from or lived in South West France and these two or rather three passes were the only ones he knew of or considered as the most practical.

There are probably more reasons of this sort. I would not look too far into the past when searching for plausible explanations.

 

[Bradypus]

If you look carefully, Don Elias starts it in Ostabat in his map of the whole Camino (p.9 in my copy). In the text, when he gets around to that route, he first shows a map of SJPDP but the text starts with Ostabat and the close up map of SJPDP shows the route entering from Ostabat and Sta. Palais.

The outline map does start at Ostabat but the 1985 edition I have does not have any description or detail maps for the route between Ostabat and SJPDP. So in practical terms as a guide it starts in SJPDP.

 

[David Tallan]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

Short answer: it doesn't.

Longer answer, there are a number of places the "Camino Frances" begins, depending on how one defines the Camino Frances. One place that used to be used was Puente la Reina, where the four routes from France described in the Codex Calixtinus join. People who use this starting point describe the route over the Somport pass as the Camino Aragones and the route via Roncesvalles as the Camino Navarro. Others included both the Camino Navarro and the Camino Aragones in the Camino Frances, giving it multiple starting points (as the Camino Mozarabe has).

More recently, people are starting not to include the Camino Aragones in the Camino Frances. So the "Camino Frances" now refers to the Camino Navarro on through Puente la Reina to Santiago. But where does the Camino Aragones start?

Remember, this all stems from the Codex Calixtinus and it's four routes from France to Santiago (as Payafac describes above). So what makes sense to me is that the "Camino Frances" starts where one can no longer specify the Camino with one of the three routes that join together. That point would be Ostabat. Before Ostabat you are on one of the other three routes. After Ostabat, you are on all of them. What's the name we have for the confluence of those three routes? Camino Frances.

But Ostabat is a tiny village. Some 20 km further on is a town that has good transportation links making it much easier to get to, more places to stay and provision. It's not hard to see why many (pilgrims and guidebook writers) choose this instead as the starting point for their pilgrimage.

 

[Bradypus]

So what makes sense to me is that the "Camino Frances" starts where one can no longer specify the Camino with one of the three routes that join together.

And some of the locals and hospitaleros on the Primitivo will tell you that the Camino Frances ends in Melide where it is subsumed into the Primitivo!

 

[Pafayac]

The Somport pass and the Cize (Roncesvalles) passes are the only ones listed in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus.

That is not true.
Below is the beginning of this book. In French, but I can post the latin version if you want ;-)
Notice that "Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port" did not exist yet, while the village of "Saint-Michel" is named...

 

[David Tallan]

That is not true.
Below is the beginning of this book. In French, but I can post the latin version if you want ;-)
Notice that "Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port" did not exist yet, while the village of "Saint-Michel" is named...

I will leap in (let's see if I beat Bradypus to it) to say Saint-Michel is included in Don Elias' guide.

You get to it on the Camino path from Saint-Jean-le-Vieux (avoiding SJPDP) or go there, on a bit of a detour, from SJPDP.

 

[Kathor1]

The Somport pass and the Cize (Roncesvalles) passes are the only ones listed in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus. None of the dozens of other passes in the Pyrenees are mentioned.

That is not true. Below is the beginning of this book. In French, but I can post the latin version if you want ;-)

No need to post it, I've read it - or rather deciphered it - in Latin but it's been a while.

I may remember it wrongly. So just help us out: Which other passes in the Pyrenees are mentioned in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus, commonly called Pilgrim's Guide these days and possibly written by Aymeric Picaud from the Poitiers area in the 12th century?

 

[CWBuff]

I am totally in agreement with the "Camino Starts at your front door" sentiment.
On one of the previous threads (IIRC like 2 years ago) I mapped it from the Eastern-most point of Russia, so anyone who wants to start there can surely do that (as if Pyrenees were not bad enough you'll have to cross Urals and Carpathian Mountains)
But its all 'walkable'
Buen Camino!

P.S> And St Jean IS a very cute little town. So...why not?!

 

[Kathor1]

will leap in (let's see if I beat Bradypus to it) to say Saint-Michel is included in Don Elias' guide.

And then what? Which pass are we supposed to take to cross over into Spain to reach Roncesvalles other than the ones already mentioned ("Cize pass", "Roncesvalles pass", Ibañeta pass, Bentearte pass, Lepoeder pass - all names used for the area's passes and basically all the same or with barely a difference as to the approach from the north/lower area? Or perhaps, being a non-native speaker of English, I have not yet grasped the full meaning of (mountain) pass? Or perhaps I did not understand the initial question? Are we discussing the question of why is it Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port and not Caro and not Saint-Jean-Le-Vieux and not Saint-Michel?

 

[Pafayac]

Which other passes in the Pyrenees are mentioned in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus

You can read it in the attachment: in addition to "col de Cize" (3 routes), the Somport (1 route) is mentioned.
This guide almost mention sanctuaries and relics which should be visited, wether our guides attach more importance to accommodations, beauty of landscapes, and food !

 

[Kathor1]

You can read it in the attachment: in addition to "col de Cize" (3 routes), the Somport (1 route) is mentioned.

I am sorry but you really need to help me out here. Wasn't that exactly what I wrote and to which you replied: "Not true"? I wrote and you quoted it: "The Somport pass and the Cize (Roncesvalles) passes are the only ones listed in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus".

The reference in Latin is actually: portus Asperi and portu Cisere, and I remember that I spent quite a bit of time and looked at other medieval sources to understand exactly what these geographical names meant.

 

[Pafayac]

I am sorry but you really need to help me out here.

I am sorry, I read your comment too quickly. However, you begin it with:
"I think that there are a number of reasons for the place that SJPP has gained in contemporary Camino walking". But the Somport could not been involved in SJPP choice, because SJPP does not lead to it. This is why I was confused when reading your post.
If, like me, you are more familiar with french than with latin, you can find a cheap translation from Jeanne Vielliard...

 

[David Tallan]

And then what? Which pass are we supposed to take to cross over into Spain to reach Roncesvalles other than the ones already mentioned ("Cize pass", "Roncesvalles pass", Ibañeta pass, Bentearte pass, Lepoeder pass - all names used for the area's passes and basically all the same or with barely a difference as to the approach from the north/lower area? Or perhaps, being a non-native speaker of English, I have not yet grasped the full meaning of (mountain) pass? Or perhaps I did not understand the initial question? Are we discussing the question of why is it Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port and not Caro and not Saint-Jean-Le-Vieux and not Saint-Michel?

In Don Elias' guidebook, if we choose to go from Saint-Michel, we continue on to the Cize pass through what we now call the Napoleon route. It joins up with the regular route from SJPDP at Untto (which I think is now called Hunto). You can see it in the map I included. I wasn't trying to contradict you or challenge what you had written. We had been discussing Don Elias' guide earlier in the discussion. You mentioned the Saint Michel from the Codex Calixtinus. I thought it was interesting that a route through there was preserved in Don Elias' book. Simple as that.

 

[Kathor1]

Ok, usually I let this stuff just pass by and think "whatever". My initial point was, and now I regret already having written anything at all: Only two areas for crossing the Pyrenees are mentioned in Book V or the CC. No other crossings in other areas. Of which there are many.

 

[AZtor]

Short answer: it doesn't.

Longer answer, there are a number of places the "Camino Frances" begins, depending on how one defines the Camino Frances. One place that used to be used was Puente la Reina, where the four routes from France described in the Codex Calixtinus join. People who use this starting point describe the route over the Somport pass as the Camino Aragones and the route via Roncesvalles as the Camino Navarro. Others included both the Camino Navarro and the Camino Aragones in the Camino Frances, giving it multiple starting points (as the Camino Mozarabe has).

More recently, people are starting not to include the Camino Aragones in the Camino Frances. So the "Camino Frances" now refers to the Camino Navarro on through Puente la Reina to Santiago. But where does the Camino Aragones start?

Remember, this all stems from the Codex Calixtinus and it's four routes from France to Santiago (as Payafac describes above). So what makes sense to me is that the "Camino Frances" starts where one can no longer specify the Camino with one of the three routes that join together. That point would be Ostabat. Before Ostabat you are on one of the other three routes. After Ostabat, you are on all of them. What's the name we have for the confluence of those three routes? Camino Frances.

But Ostabat is a tiny village. Some 20 km further on is a town that has good transportation links making it much easier to get to, more places to stay and provision. It's not hard to see why many (pilgrims and guidebook writers) choose this instead as the starting point for their pilgrimage.

To be fair to the OP, I think this is a question of nomenclature. And in that sense, yes the route named the "Camino Frances" does begin in SJPdP. So the question becomes: how did each route get their name and how was their start (and end) points determined. This is more of a recent history, than a medieval history, question.

 

[David Tallan]

To be fair to the OP, I think this is a question of nomenclature. And in that sense, yes the route named the "Camino Frances" does begin in SJPdP. So the question becomes: how did each route get their name and how was their start (and end) points determined. This is more of a recent history, than a medieval history, question.

If the Camino Frances starts in SJPDP, what's the name of the route you are on between Ostabat and SJPDP?

 

[AZtor]

If the Camino Frances starts in SJPDP, what's the name of the route you are on between Ostabat and SJPDP?

All the literature I've ever seen that uses the modern nomenclature of "Camino Frances" starts in SJPdP. So I'm not talking history here, I'm talking labels.

From Ostabat the label used is the Via Podiensis.

 

[Pafayac]

what's the name of the route you are on between Ostabat and SJPDP?

It is considered as a part of Via Podiensis.

 

[Camino Chrissy]

I have not read most of these posts, but I want to say that I really enjoyed starting in SJPdP the two times I walked the Frances. It is an adorable, picturesque town and I enjoyed walking the ramparts and exploring the nooks and crannies it had to offer. Is it a "must see"? Not sure, as my mama always said "you don't miss what you don't know".

 

[NYSE]

I don't agree that it is easier to get to. Seems like an equal amount of flights, trains, buses to bothe SJPDP and Somport. It's a cute town, though.

It's a very cute town and a wonderful start to any camino. My wife and I visited SJPDP before we knew it was the official/unofficial start to the camino. I remember asking the wife, "what are all these hikers doing here?"

 

[David Tallan]

It is considered as a part of Via Podiensis.

So the Via Turonensis and the Via Lemovicensis end at Ostabat?

 

[dougfitz]

@MaxHelado, I have skimmed these nearly 40 responses, and I did detect the answer I would have given you, and that is the CF starts in Puente la Reina where the Camino Navarro and Camino Arogonese meet.

If I have followed this correctly, I will have to consider whether I have also walked part of the Primitivo as well.

Which doesn't help with the question about the popularity of SJPP as a starting point, a matter I could only speculate about myself, but have learned a lot more as a result of you asking. Thank you.

 

[dbier]

Out of curiosity, what/ where was the Via Tolosana? (mentioned above). And is there speculation about why the Codex did not reference whatever route Alfonso II originally took?

 

[Pafayac]

Via Tolosana is now known as "Voie d'Arles" (it passes by Toulouse).
The Codex does not care very much about itineraries: it mentions the 4 via in France in order to promote the sanctuaries which can be visited along, and the relics which can provide benefits to the pilgrims.
Furthermore, it most probably has been written by a French author: as you could know, for we French the rest of the world is not very important... ;-)
I think this is why it does not tell about the many ways in Spain.

 

[AZtor]

Out of curiosity, what/ where was the Via Tolosana? (mentioned above). And is there speculation about why the Codex did not reference whatever route Alfonso II originally took?

Because the nomenclature/the route names, are a modern creation.

 

[dbier]

Via Tolosana is now known as "Voie d'Arles" (it passes by Toulouse).
The Codex does not care very much about itineraries: it mentions the 4 via in France in order to promote the sanctuaries which can be visited along, and the relics which can provide benefits to the pilgrims.
Furthermore, it most probably has been written by a French author: as you could know, for we French the rest of the world is not very important... ;-)
I think this is why it does not tell about the many ways in Spain.

Merci beaucoup.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

There's nothing really "special" about it, at least not compared to other potential starting points. It's a lovely town, but there are hundreds if not thousands of other perfectly good and beautiful places to start a Camino from.

But as to why the Francès is between SJPP and Santiago, it's because the Ways to Santiago from Paris/Tours, Vézelay, and Le Puy (and one of the variants from Lourdes/Arles/Rome) come together at more or less SJPP, and become that single route.

 

[JabbaPapa]

the answer I would have given you, and that is the CF starts in Puente la Reina where the Camino Navarro and Camino Arogonese meet.

But from that perspective, the Aragonés is a variant of the Francès -- as indeed it was considered to be in the 1990s, before they started giving these special names to the various particular sections of the major Camino Ways.

The Catalan Way has multiple routes.

And the variant routes of the Francès are a part of the Francès.

 

[Cicada]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

The Chocolate Muffins!

 

[JabbaPapa]

No, these 3 routes (Via Podiensis, Via Turonensis and Via Lemovicensis) meet in Ostabat

Historically, in Saint-Palais.

The Le Puy GR route avoiding Saint-Palais is a modern innovation, from avoiding the main road, which is the one that pilgrims from the direction of Le Puy would have followed.

If not for this innovation, everyone would think the Francès "started" at Saint-Palais ...

BTW, Saint-Jean itself used to be centred in a completely different location, at Saint-Jean-le-Vieux !! Saint-Jean-le-Vieux is of Roman origin, and was where the main local Pilgrims' Hospital was located. Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port is of later, Mediaeval origin, and took over as the main town in the district in the 12th and 13th Centuries.

 

[JabbaPapa]

From Ostabat the label used is the Via Podiensis.

Actually, the route between Saint-Palais and SJPP (and SJPP > Arnéguy) is nowadays referred to as the Voie de Navarre ...

 

[dougfitz]

But from that perspective, the Aragonés is a variant of the Francès -- as indeed it was considered to be in the 1990s, before they started giving these special names to the various particular sections of the major Camino Ways.

The Catalan Way has multiple routes.

And the variant routes of the Francès are a part of the Francès.

I don’t recall this being the way these routes were described when I first became interested in walking the Camino around 2008. The material I was reading was, as I recall, consistent about the CF beginning at the joining of the Navarre and Arogonese routes.

 

[Pafayac]

Historically, in Saint-Palais.

It depends what you mean by "Historically": Ostabat is mentioned in Codex Calixtinus:
"The way passing by Sainte-Foy (1), the one which crosses Sant-Léonard (2), and the other which passes by Saint-Martin (3) join in Ostabat".
1: Abbey Sainte-Foy is in Conques (Via Podiensis)
2: Saint-Léonard-de-Noblat, near Limoges (Via Lemovicencis)
3: Saint-Martin de Tours (Via Turonensis)

 

[Kathor1]

And in that sense, yes the route named the "Camino Frances" does begin in SJPdP. So the question becomes: how did each route get their name and how was their start (and end) points determined. This is more of a recent history, than a medieval history, question.

It's a good question. I think that I've asked it once on the forum but there was no answer and I've never found an answer myself online. All these fancy names - Camino Francés, via podiensis for the popular modern hiking trail from Le Puy, even Camino de Santiago - are not mentioned in the so-called medieval Pilgrim's Guide from the 12th century, written in Latin, that is the basis for all this today.

I've read a few guidebooks/travelogues from pilgrims in the later centuries; they talk of going to Saint James in Galicia; one of them called the itinerary that he took the "Upper Road" and the "Lower Road"; this refers to German speaking pilgrims who went either through Switzerland and the south of France, or through Belgium and the west of France there and back.

I vaguely remember - no idea where - that there is an ancient document about the sale or donation of land on the iter francigena ("French way") somewhere near Bordeaux perhaps but my impression is that, just as it is the case with Italy, these nominations just referred to a short piece of way, never to the whole 800 km or 1200 km or whatever long road to Compostela (or Rome for that matter).

With the recent revival, I think that, originally in the 1980s or 1990s or so, there was only talk of one Camino de Santiago/Voie or Chemin de Compostelle. Then the others were recreated or invented and needed labels, so The Camino de Santiago became The Camino Francés, and it mainly lies in Spain with a tiny initial section just outside of Spain.

 

[Pafayac]

"ab his qui per viam Tolosanam ad Sanctum Jacobum.."
("Those who go to Santiago following the way of Toulouse)
"Item a Burgundionibus et Theutonicis per viam Podiensem ad Sanctum Jacobum..."
("Same for Burgundian and Teutonics who goes to Santiago following the way of Le Puy")
"his qui per viam Turonensem ad Sanctum Jacobum..."
("Those who go to Santiago following the way of Tours")
In Codex Calixtinus, book V, Chapter VIII "Holy corpses which lay on the way of Santiago and that pilgrims shall visit".

 

[Kathor1]

so-called medieval Pilgrim's Guide from the 12th century, written in Latin, that is the basis for all this today

Contrary to what many people believe, this medieval document, frequently called "Pilgrim's Guide" these days, had never been widely known. There is some dispute among specialised scholars what its purpose was. It contains knowledge that, from all they can tell, remained in the exclusivity of monasteries. It is likely that it was aimed for members of the aristocracy and leading church figures. It deals with how to travel from a large part of today's France to Santiago de Compostela.

There are about half a dozen or a dozen copies today. For centuries, it remained in various archives and remained totally unknown. A Spanish scholar and researcher, Father Fidel Fita, discovered it around 1880 and transcribed it from a manuscript held in the archives of Compostela. It was published but, obviously, in Latin and did not find much attention. Around 1938, it was translated into French and published, and that's when it got its name as "Pilgrim's Guide". This found more and wider interest. But it would take 30 or 40 years before someone apparently used it to walk the way as described in the document - which is, in Spain, essentially what we know now as Camino Francés.

It was in the second half of the 20th century that, for all we know, someone used this medieval document to walk the way as described. It was Abbé Bernés in 1961 (I think). In 1973, he had his own guidebook published in French, which remained the only "Camino" guidebook in French until the 1990s. It was called "le Bernés" and became popular, as became walking/leisure hiking as such.

And all this is pretty unknown in the "Brierley universe".

 

[Kathor1]

Here is a nice list (in French) of the chronology of how it all started from 1863 until 1990 and what was published when - btw, as you can see from the introduction, it wasn't triggered by the movie "The Way".

ce qui a déclenché la croissance du nombre de pèlerins vers Compostelle

la croissance du nombre de pèlerin.e.s sur les chemins vers Compostelle au cours du XXe siècle a débuté en 1979 et est probablement causé par la publication du livre "Priez pour nous à Compostelle"

verscompostelle.be

 

[VNwalking]

And all this is pretty unknown in the "Brierley universe"

Not to mention the Paulo, Shirley, and Martin Sheen universes. All of these folks popularized and solidified the idea that SJPP is the place to start what we now call the Camino Frances.
And thanks, @Kathar1na, for this nice summary of how that perception developed earler.

Here is a nice list (in French) of the chronology of how it all started from 1863 until 1990:

 

[Kathor1]

All of these folks popularized and solidified the idea that SJPP is the place to start what we now call the Camino Frances.

Translation from the chronology mentioned earlier:

From 1990 onwards ... continuous increase of the coverage of the pilgrimage to Santiago: the fast creation of new pilgrims' associations (from 26 at the end of the 1980s to several hundred today) who promote the pilgrimage to Santiago, the multiplication of pilgrimage reports, books about the pilgrimage, TV programmes and documentaries, films in French and English which reach an increasingly larger audience and finally marketing, merchandising and the development of a "Santiago" brandname (organisation of walks, treks, races, etc.) and the entry into the market of more and more tour operators, thereby creating a buzz and a kind of trendy quality of walking the Camino to Santiago.​

​

But at the base of all this is this 12th century document that describes in great detail a pilgrimage path from France that goes through the Western foothills of the Pyrenees (and for completeness sake: on French territory, either through the town/village of Borce or through the town/village of Saint-Michel).

 

[Kathor1]

And is there speculation about why the Codex did not reference whatever route Alfonso II originally took?

When the Pilgrim Guide was written around 1140-1160, nobody had much interest in Alfonso II who had lived 300 years earlier - that he was the first pilgrim who went to the tomb of Saint James and that the Camino Primitivo is the first Camino is a bit of a gimmick that is used today to promote this Camino and its towns, and just blurb in guidebooks and articles about Camino walking in Spain in general.

The 12th guidebook addresses possibly (as some scholars think) the nobility in a part of France that was then known as Aquitaine; it stretches from the Pyrenees in the south to the north at about the level of Tours, Orléans and Vézelay. Orléans is mentioned in the Pilgrim's Guide, Paris is not mentioned at all. In a casual remark, there is also mention of pilgrims coming from Geneva and there is a short reference to what is translated as Teutons (Teutonicis in Latin), i.e. pilgrims coming from German speaking regions to the east of France but they are not the main audience.

At the time, it was not a guidebook that wanted to pitch the Caminos de Santiago in Spain to an international audience.

 

[MaxHelado]

But if only Don Elias Valina had stuck his first yellow arrow on a wall in the Plaza del Castillo in Pamplona how much easier life would be? We could all kick-back and enjoy a coffee in the square before ambling off into Rioja. And no-one would need to do that schlepp over the Pyrenees.

I guess he didn't really think it through.

 

[JabbaPapa]

I don’t recall this being the way these routes were described when I first became interested in walking the Camino around 2008. The material I was reading was, as I recall, consistent about the CF beginning at the joining of the Navarre and Arogonese routes.

15 years after my first Camino, and the period I was referring to ...

 

[Bradypus]

I guess he didn't really think it through.

Or he could have followed the advice so often given and just started from his own front door. Just over 160km and mostly downhill...

 

[JabbaPapa]

It depends what you mean by "Historically": Ostabat is mentioned in Codex Calixtinus:
"The way passing by Sainte-Foy (1), the one which crosses Sant-Léonard (2), and the other which passes by Saint-Martin (3) join in Ostabat".
1: Abbey Sainte-Foy is in Conques (Via Podiensis)
2: Saint-Léonard-de-Noblat, near Limoges (Via Lemovicencis)
3: Saint-Martin de Tours (Via Turonensis)

Doesn't make sense geographically.

Nor do they join there today !!

The current Paris/Tours and Vézelay Ways join at Saint-Palais ; and the current GR Le Puy route makes a nonsensical detour up some crests and ridges to end up a few hundred metres away from there.

 

[dick bird]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

Before that it is in France, so calling it the Camino Frances (or Chemin Francais) would be a bit pointless.

 

[Kathor1]

And in that sense, yes the route named the "Camino Frances" does begin in SJPdP. So the question becomes: how did each route get their name and how was their start (and end) points determined. This is more of a recent history, than a medieval history, question.

Further to what has already been written and my earlier answer ("I don't know but if someone knows please tell us") I have just looked up the terms used in the 12th century guide which is the blueprint for the trail that we are walking today. Without it, I don't think that there would have been this revival. The author uses iter Sancti Iacobi (way of / to Saint James) and via Iacobitana (more or less the same, Jacob means James) and again Beati Jacobi iter (way of / to Blessed James).

In today's common parlance, certainly in English, the reference to the Way(s) of Saint James has largely disappeared, we talk mainly of "Camino(s)".

 

[Kathor1]

And in this century old blueprint for today's Camino to Santiago a number of towns in France are listed but mainly in connection with the relics of the saints that are venerated there and where the traveller must stop and visit on his journey to Santiago. A detailed description of the way starts only at the northern foot of the Pyrenees, in the region where so many of us start today.

I guess, but it is just my guess, the reason for this is again the (presumed) target audience: the author assumes that his readers know how to travel around in the region where they live (in a large chunk of today's France). It is on the southern side of the Pyrenees, abroad, where they benefit from detailed travelling instructions. The author provides an additional reason for his long list of villages and towns in Spain from the SJPP area and from the Somport area to Santiago.
Quote (translated):

I have listed these places and stages so that pilgrims/travellers, with this information, can plan their travel expenses when they leave for Santiago. ​

​

The readers of this medieval pilgrim's guide are not supposed to walk on foot, at various times the author refers to "of course by horse" and "on horseback" and provides information about where to water horses and where it is not advised.

So that's why we walk where we walk and start where we start.

 

[Bradypus]

The readers of this medieval pilgrim's guide are not supposed to walk on foot, at various times the author refers to "of course by horse" and "on horseback" and provides information about where to water horses and where it is not advised.

At that time literacy was quite rare amongst the poor and even amongst many of the rich who hired people to do the reading and writing for them. Apart from clergy and members of religious orders of course. If you could read it for yourself in Latin then the chances were pretty good that you could also afford a horse!

 

[JabbaPapa]

Here is a nice list (in French) of the chronology of how it all started from 1863 until 1990 and what was published when - btw, as you can see from the introduction, it wasn't triggered by the movie "The Way".

ce qui a déclenché la croissance du nombre de pèlerins vers Compostelle

la croissance du nombre de pèlerin.e.s sur les chemins vers Compostelle au cours du XXe siècle a débuté en 1979 et est probablement causé par la publication du livre "Priez pour nous à Compostelle"

verscompostelle.be

It's very incomplete -- for 1965, it does not mention Franco's active purpose to make the Camino into a car drive by stages, nor the beautiful reaction against that plan by the Spanish, French, and English Compostelan Associations to make that Holy Year Camino mainly by foot, bike, and horseback instead.

Nor the massive 1993 Holy Year.

 

[Purple Backpack]

If the Camino Frances starts in SJPDP, what's the name of the route you are on between Ostabat and SJPDP?

GR65, Via Podiensis. Just came through there a couple of weeks ago. There’s a gorgeous tiny chateau, Chateau d’Aphat, just outside Vieux St Jean, not far from SJPDP. I kept daydreaming about opening as a gite.

 

[Former member 92300]

Not sure if there is a right answer, but I do know that I don't know which of the historical answers are most correct. So I won't even try to go there and answer in a historical context.

But - for me - this is why "I" started in SJPDP. 1) It is where most books and apps list as the starting point of the Camino Frances. But of course you can start before/after. 2) I wanted the challenge and to see the beauty of crossing the Pyrenees. 3) While I wouldn't call it "easy" to get to, it wasn't "hard" to get to either. And I knew many pilgrims make their way to SJPDP from Paris and Madrid without too much hassle. And 4) I loved the idea of walking COMPLETELY across the country. I started in SJPDP and ended in Muxia and Finisterre. Therefore I have walked all the way across the country of Spain. I would love to do that in my own country too - but I live in the US and it would require me to retire first (or quit my job which isn't going to happen) and there definitely isn't the wonderful infrastructure that they have in Spain along the Camino Frances and other popular routes. I do want to complete the cross country hiking routes someday - but making it happen is going to be challenging.

 

[Purple Backpack]

Not sure if there is a right answer, but I do know that I don't know which of the historical answers are most correct. So I won't even try to go there and answer in a historical context.

But - for me - this is why "I" started in SJPDP. 1) It is where most books and apps list as the starting point of the Camino Frances. But of course you can start before/after. 2) I wanted the challenge and to see the beauty of crossing the Pyrenees. 3) While I wouldn't call it "easy" to get to, it wasn't "hard" to get to either. And I knew many pilgrims make their way to SJPDP from Paris and Madrid without too much hassle. And 4) I loved the idea of walking COMPLETELY across the country. I started in SJPDP and ended in Muxia and Finisterre. Therefore I have walked all the way across the country of Spain. I would love to do that in my own country too - but I live in the US and it would require me to retire first (or quit my job which isn't going to happen) and there definitely isn't the wonderful infrastructure that they have in Spain along the Camino Frances and other popular routes. I do want to complete the cross country hiking routes someday - but making it happen is going to be challenging.

I love walking across countries, there’s something about starting on one side and finishing on the other. But I can’t take off long stretches either, it took 3 trips to finish the GR 65 and technically, I still have to walk from Geneva to Le Puy. Then I wouldn’t want to stop because Le Puy to Figeac is gorgeous and I loved the Célé variant. If you have a couple of weeks, England’s Coast to Coast is a lot of fun, Switzerland on the VF, Via Podiensis broken into thirds, many others. Have fun planning!

 

[David Tallan]

Before that it is in France, so calling it the Camino Frances (or Chemin Francais) would be a bit pointless.

In that case, why wouldn't it start in Roncesvalles? Before  that it is in France.

 

[lalaone]

Jeanine describes my feeling as well – wanting to walk across an entire country.

This might be weird...but I also have another theory. The name. Both names – “St Jean Pied de Port” and “Santiago de Compostela” are poetic. From one saint to another, one brother to another, both called “sons of thunder.” From “the foot of the mountain” to “the field of stars.” Perfectly paralleled, they present a metaphor for spiritual journey: humility, heaven. Like described in Carl Jung’s work on synchronicity, sometimes places have a feeling like they were just destined for future events, and sometimes you can even discern that in a name. I obviously have no evidence, but this is my gut feeling regarding SJPP – that something in the name appealed to the collective unconscious, destining it to be linked with SdC, almost as alpha is to omega. I said it sounded strange... Just my metaphysical musings on the matter

 

[VNwalking]

Therefore I have walked all the way across the country of Spain.

Almost. Just a small correction.
Across the country would be starting in Llança on the Cami Catalan, or from any place on the East coast of Spain (on the Caminos like the Ebro, Lana, Levante, Sureste). A bit of a longer undertaking than the Francés from SJPP: about 1400km for the Cami Catalan - Aragones - Francés from Puente la Reina.

 

[David Tallan]

Almost. Just a small correction.
Across the country would be starting in Llança on the Cami Catalan, or from any place on the East coast of Spain (on the Caminos like the Ebro, Lana, Levante, Sureste). A bit of a longer undertaking than the Francés from SJPP: about 1400km for the Cami Catalan - Aragones - Francés from Puente la Reina.

One could also walk across the country with the Camino Mozarabe, south to north. But instead of walking on to Finisterre/Muxia to complete the trek one would walk the Camino Ingles in reverse.

 

[Former member 92300]

Almost. Just a small correction.
Across the country would be starting in Llança on the Cami Catalan, or from any place on the East coast of Spain (on the Caminos like the Ebro, Lana, Levante, Sureste). A bit of a longer undertaking than the Francés from SJPP: about 1400km for the Cami Catalan - Aragones - Francés from Puente la Reina.

You can walk any number of planes across Spain - and still have walked across Spain. Although - I did mean to type "Northern" Spain - don't know why I didn't lol. Either way - I walked from SJPDP to the Ocean on the Western coast of Spain - so yes - I walked across Spain. I didn't walk the widest segment - is true.

 

[Bradypus]

One could also walk across the country with the Camino Mozarabe, south to north. But instead of walking on to Finisterre/Muxia to complete the trek one would walk the Camino Ingles in reverse.

I have walked all the way from Malaga on the Mediterranean to San Andres de Teixido on the Atlantic coast about 10km from the NW corner of Spain. On the Mozarabe and the VdlP and the Ingles plus a little bit that is not officially recognised. Not all in the one trip and not all in the right direction

 

[dougfitz]

Almost. Just a small correction.
Across the country would be starting in Llança on the Cami Catalan, or from any place on the East coast of Spain (on the Caminos like the Ebro, Lana, Levante, Sureste). A bit of a longer undertaking than the Francés from SJPP: about 1400km for the Cami Catalan - Aragones - Francés from Puente la Reina.

Really? I don't think this is a useful objection. If one chooses to walk the entire width of a country, it seems to me it could be anywhere one reaches the opposite side to where one started to qualify. Going from the eastern border near Roncesvalles to Muxia or Fisterra would work for me.

 

[Bradypus]

If one chooses to walk the entire width of a country, it seems to me it could be anywhere one reaches the opposite side to where one started to qualify.

I walked across Norway from the Swedish border to the Atlantic coast in one day. It was just too cold to stop and nowhere warm was open to rest in. Luckily Norway is a very narrow country at that point!

 

[dougfitz]

I walked across Norway from the Swedish border to the Atlantic coast in one day. It was just too cold to stop and nowhere warm was open to rest in. Luckily Norway is a very narrow country at that point!

Indeed. Did you walk across Sweden as well on the S:t Olavsleden?

 

[Bradypus]

Indeed. Did you walk across Sweden as well on the S:t Olavsleden?

Yes. But that took more than one day. I walked from Sundsvall in May. Still pretty chilly with a few frozen lakes. I camped about 200m from the border stone near Skalstugan. The next day I walked to Verdal because everywhere was closed along the way (a national strike in the hospitality industry apparently). The following day was the Norwegian national day.

 

[dick bird]

In that case, why wouldn't it start in Roncesvalles? Before  that it is in France.

Absolutely. Or to be 100% accurate, at the point where the pilgrimage route to Santiago crosses the border from France into Spain, which leads us to another rabbit hole - Route Napoleon or Valcarlos? For me, this is an endlessly fascinating topic for discussion with no really definitive answer - you pays your money and you takes your choice. Fun talking about it though.

 

[dick bird]

Interesting. The idea that this holy pilgrimage begins in a place where a bloke with a yellow arrow and a mallet said “this’ll do” has great appeal to me!

Don't confuse the pilgrimage with the camino (now there's a mantra for you). A camino is a route for pilgrims to follow. There being a large and increasing number of routes (or 'caminos' in Spanish) to Santiago, it is convenient to give them all names. But your pilgrimage begins where you say it does, and if you say it begins in SJPdP, that 's good enough for you. And if you choose to call it the Camino Frances, that's fine too.

 

[Kathor1]

From one saint to another, one brother to another, both called “sons of thunder.”

Saint Jean Pied de Port is not named after the apostle John who was the brother of Saint James.

Saint Jean Pied de Port is named after Saint John the Baptist. He is also the patron saint of the town.

 

[lalaone]

Thank you very much for the correction Kathar1na. You are excellent in all historical diversions and your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

I cannot lie though, this detail makes it even more interesting to me…John the Baptist! Maybe even more so than before - a real sense of alpha and omega. Thanks again for your gentle correction and your insight.

 

[AnneMarie1]

Okay, so my title is intentionally a little provocative but the question is a serious one.
Why does the Camino Frances begin in SJPP?

I did the Camino in 2001, and there was no great fuss over it back then. Hardly anyone started from there. I’m convinced that it’s driven by that Martin Sheen movie. In 2001, the guidebooks presented two route options for those who wanted to start at the Pyrenees: the Roncesvalles pass or the Somport one, which was more traveled until the 12th c. Now there are guidebooks that don’t even mention the Somport option, and everyone refers to a “French route” as if Somport doesn’t exist.

 

[Bradypus]

I did the Camino in 2001, and there was no great fuss over it back then. Hardly anyone started from there.

I walked from SJPDP in 1990 and 2002. By 1990 SJPDP was already the default starting point for most British pilgrims and many others too. The Spanish generally started from Roncesvalles. The Somport route was known but little mentioned. The pilgrim office detailed statistics go back to 2003. Well before Mr Sheen's movie. In 2003 they recorded 15,376 people who started from SJPDP and Roncesvalles. And only 869 who started from Somport. The numbers from SJPDP and Roncesvalles combined were about 50% larger than those beginning at Sarria in that year - the Camino was still seen mostly as a long-distance pilgrimage. I have to disagree with the idea that "Hardly anyone" started from SJPDP.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I didn't want to distract from the original thread initially but it deviated to completely walking across countries anyway so let me tell you here that you can walk across North America, coast to coast, in two weeks or so; it's something I've been thinking about. Read about the Camino de Costa Rica by using the forum search engine to look for threads with Costa Rica in the title.

 

[Barbara]

Translation from the chronology mentioned earlier:

From 1990 onwards ... continuous increase of the coverage of the pilgrimage to Santiago: the fast creation of new pilgrims' associations (from 26 at the end of the 1980s to several hundred today) who promote the pilgrimage to Santiago, the multiplication of pilgrimage reports, books about the pilgrimage, TV programmes and documentaries, films in French and English which reach an increasingly larger audience and finally marketing, merchandising and the development of a "Santiago" brandname (organisation of walks, treks, races, etc.) and the entry into the market of more and more tour operators, thereby creating a buzz and a kind of trendy quality of walking the Camino to Santiago.​

​

But at the base of all this is this 12th century document that describes in great detail a pilgrimage path from France that goes through the Western foothills of the Pyrenees (and for completeness sake: on French territory, either through the town/village of Borce or through the town/village of Saint-Michel).

I'll put my oar in here and say not all that much detail, as far as the route goes. Anyway, it starts in Antigny in the Vienne. Must do, that's where I live. Or possibly Paizay le sec, where I used to live. Or Canterbury, because why not? Or Parthenay.

 

[JabbaPapa]

By 1990 SJPDP was already the default starting point for most British pilgrims and many others too.

Not at all what I found walking through in 1994 -- most pilgrims in SJPP that time had walked from further away, the great majority from the Le Puy route, though some had come from northern Europe via the Vézelay Way. I was the only one from the Paris/Tours Way.

The minority starting at SJPP were of various nationalities, though the Brits and North Americans were the largest groups. But still, not that many.

The Spanish generally started from Roncesvalles.

Far more people started in 1994 at Roncesvalles than SJPP. Yes the vast majority of those starting there were Spanish, including those busing in for a morning arrival, breakfast, then head out immediately. But in 1994 anyway, people of multiple nationalities started at Roncesvalles, and more than those starting at SJPP. Including Brits.

The Somport route was known but little mentioned.

By 1994 it was more well known and travelled -- it's possible that the Somport route had been revitalised by the 1993 Holy Year. (I wasn't much aware of these things on my own 1993.) It had definitely become a lot more popular by the mid 2000s !!

The pilgrim office detailed statistics go back to 2003. Well before Mr Sheen's movie. In 2003 they recorded 15,376 people who started from SJPDP and Roncesvalles.

Certainly when I walked through SJPP on my 2005, the number of pilgrims starting there had massively increased compared to the early 90s, by that time dwarfing the number of people starting at Roncesvalles.

I was stunned and shocked by the crowd of them, including because I had met only about a couple dozens of foot pilgrims total on the Way there from home, setting aside the thousands of non-foot pilgrims at Lourdes.

Something happened between the early 1990s and early 2000s, clearly. From the 1970s to the early 90s, the most typical starting point in France was Le Puy ; in the early 2000s, it had become SJPP, and has remained so ever since.

Don't understand what caused this ; things like The Way only reinforced whatever that was, without causing it originally -- the old 1980s French guide books divided the Way of Saint James into two sections ; Le Puy to Roncesvalles ; Roncesvalles to Santiago (though there was already a separate guidebook for the Arles route). Roncesvalles, not SJPP, was seen as the junction between the Ways in France and Spain.

And only 869 who started from Somport. The numbers from SJPDP and Roncesvalles combined were about 50% larger than those beginning at Sarria in that year - the Camino was still seen mostly as a long-distance pilgrimage. I have to disagree with the idea that "Hardly anyone" started from SJPDP.

It's not true for the early 2000s ; but it is true for the early 1990s and earlier, relative to the numbers starting at Le Puy and Roncesvalles or elsewhere. It was definitely a minority starting point until the late 90s or early 2000s.

As for Sarria, very, very few people started there in the early 1990s, and not even that many in the early 2000s ; though of course, I saw a greater number starting from there on my 2005 than I had seen on the 1994. The importance of Sarria at the time was that it was a small city stop, with shops for supplies, bars and restaurants and whatnot, so that most pilgrims foot and bike stopped there, and so it could get rather crowded. But as the 100K rule for the Compostelas was still pretty new, it was still somewhat unusual to choose it as a starting point -- although some of the pilgrims doing their Caminos in stages did make Sarria to Santiago their final stage.

The final few 100K to Santiago did get progressively more crowded, but this was not principally from people starting there (though some did), but mainly due to the influx from other Camino Ways joining the Francès at various points.

 

[Pafayac]

Thank you for your interesting points, based upon your rich experience.

The final few 100K to Santiago did get progressively more crowded, but this was not principally from people starting there (though some did), but mainly due to the influx from other Camino Ways joining the Francès at various points.

Therefore, I am surprised by this last precisions: more than half of the Compostela issued are for pilgrims who started from Sarria. Therefore it seems that the overcrowding is mainly due to this starting point...

 

[Kathor1]

I'll put my oar in here and say not all that much detail, as far as the route goes. Anyway, it starts in Antigny in the Vienne. Must do, that's where I live. Or possibly Paizay le sec, where I used to live. Or Canterbury, because why not? Or Parthenay.

I don't understand. Maybe we are talking about different paths?

I was referring to the path(s) or way(s) as they are described in Book V of the Codex Calixtinus, commonly known nowadays as the Pilgrim's Guide, and the blueprint for today's Camino Francés. That's what Elias Valiñas and the Camino pioneers from the Paris association and the Estella association and other early walkers in the 1960s-1980s used as their guiding line. In this 12th century document, various towns in France are mentioned, also Geneva, and these are mostly places with important relics of various saints and should be visited for this reason, but there is no detailed description for travelling to or through these places.

The detailed description of a way to Santiago with a long list of towns, villages and a few 'hospitals' (albergues) covers only what we know today as the Camino Francés, with its two initial "arms", known today as Camino Aragonés and Camino Navarro, although the latter name is rarely used and not widely known. In the medieval document, this detailed description starts with the names of villages/towns in the northern foothills/parts of the western end of the Pyrenees, i.e. in the wider SJPP and Somport areas.

BTW, there are easily accessible copies of the original text in Latin and of various translations into French, Spanish and English on the web. It's best to read the Latin version because of the sometimes liberal translation of geographical names. One English translation for example uses "Camino de Santiago" which is of course an expression that did not exist in this sense in the Middle Ages! But all this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread ...

 

[markie6]

You can be off an international flight in Biarritz and arrive in SJPDP in a couple of hours by public transport for about 12 euro if your timing is right. And less time but slightly more money if you book with Express Bourricot. Much harder to do that with Somport.

Yes to this. For many who come from outside Europe they need to fly into an international airport and then transit onward from there.

My example is 3 trains from the South Coast UK .. Brighton to London >> Paris >> Bayonne

Ease of travel to a starting point is key. We all see lots of people asking about travel from Pamplona and Biaritz to St Jean .. which is pretty straight forward.

Getting to Somport wouldn't be so easy or even tracing the GR65 backwards to somewhere with multiple hubs. I am guessing St Jean was geared up for hikers before many of the recent influx of pilgrims started arriving ?

 

[Kathor1]

I am guessing St Jean was geared up for hikers before many of the recent influx of pilgrims started arriving ?

Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir spent their summer holidays there in August 1964. There is an entertaining description by a forum member in this thread Orisson Refugio - A Philosophical/Literary Footnote. Especially Simone de Beauvoir enjoyed hiking i.e. mountain/hill walking and spending time in nature.

I see on the web that already in 1937, they spent vacation time in Itxassou, about 30 km from Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, where she writes that Sartre s'installait pour travailler pendant que je courais les collines des environs. Already in 1889, the railway line from Bayonne to SJPP was built - easy access to a place where the Pyrenees start in earnest. I guess that Sartre and de Beauvoir were not the only ones who went there in their leisure time.

 

[Bradypus]

Some statistics from Roncesvalles in 1987. In that year the Colegiata recorded 1418 pilgrims. The total number of Compostelas issued that year was 2905. Which seems to suggest that almost half of all the pilgrims recorded in Santiago that year passed through Roncesvalles.

 

[Kathor1]

Ease of travel to a starting point is key

Since I discovered an interactive map of the French railways today ... , let me share it to support your point of view that ease of access is a key factor. Only a few will dispute that the Camino revival started with the revival of the Way through Pamplona, Burgos, and Leon. So why from SJPP and not from a town or village on the way to the Somport pass?

Ease of access in the 1980s to 2000s, to name just two years to fix a meaningful timeframe, contributed to cement the prime position of SJPP. The bulk of pilgrims who were not resident in Spain came from Europe and in particular from France and her neighbouring countries. Taxis and local buses were not as frequently available and used as nowadays, and neither were cheap flights as widely available as today. That leaves railway travel when you did not wish to start from your front door.

There is a railway track from Bayonne to SJPP; take it and you can start crossing the mountain range the day that follows your arrival. There also is a railway track from Dax to Pau and then from Pau to Bedous but then you are still some way away from the pass. Don't forget that the line between Oloron-Sainte-Marie and Bedous was not in use for passenger traffic from 1980 until 2016 - a period during which Camino walking started to develop and rapidly gained many followers. Oloron-Sainte-Maire would have been the starting point for railway passengers and that is a lot further away from the relevant mountain pass than SJPP is away from their mountain passes. As so often - it's technology and the economy, dude.

BTW, the line from Bedous to Canfranc is still out of use to this day.

 

[Bradypus]

. Taxis and local buses were not as frequently available and used as nowadays, and neither were cheap flights as widely available as today.

International flights to regional airports like Biarritz were pretty scarce in 1990 and very expensive. At that time travel by train from the UK to Biarritz and to return from Santiago was a much cheaper option than flying.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Thank you for your interesting points, based upon your rich experience.

Therefore, I am surprised by this last precisions: more than half of the Compostela issued are for pilgrims who started from Sarria. Therefore it seems that the overcrowding is mainly due to this starting point...

Yes -- but that was most definitely not the case in the early 1990s nor even in the early 2000s.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Some statistics from Roncesvalles in 1987. In that year the Colegiata recorded 1418 pilgrims. The total number of Compostelas issued that year was 2905. Which seems to suggest that almost half of all the pilgrims recorded in Santiago that year passed through Roncesvalles.
View attachment 147390

A slight misreading of the document.

At Roncesvalles 1,418 Christian pilgrims, plus 2 Buddhists, 2 Jews, and one atheist/agnostic = 1,423 pilgrims.

And whereas 2,905 collected their Compostela, at the time there were no requirements of 100K or 200K on foot or by bike, but you could go to Santiago by bus, train, by car or however, and get your Compostela.

The stat for foot pilgrims getting their Compostelas in 1987 is given as 1,770.

So it's roughly 80% of the foot pilgrims getting their Compostela who passed through Roncesvalles (exact numbers probably slightly wrong from no detail about the bike pilgrims).

 

[JabbaPapa]

Ease of access in the 1980s to 2000s, to name just two years to fix a meaningful timeframe, contributed to cement the prime position of SJPP.

You may be right about that, it's actually a pretty good theory.

Oloron-Sainte-Maire would have been the starting point for railway passengers and that is a lot further away from the relevant mountain pass than SJPP is away from their mountain passes. As so often - it's technology and the economy, dude.

BTW, the line from Bedous to Canfranc is still out of use to this day.

Well yes --- but the replacement bus service runs several buses a day up to the Somport. And when I walked up there in 2014, I could see that pilgrims did make good use of it.

As to the Oloron to Canfranc train line, there is an ongoing project and plan to reopen it -- that's years in the future ; though the hope is that it will reopen some time after 2025, so possibly not too many years.

 

[sillydoll]

Saint Jean Pied de Port was the capital of Lower Navarra and the playground of the Kings of Navarra. The borders changed a few times but eventually the border was situated at Arneguy. On the route via the Somport Pass, Borce (now in France) belonged to Aragon. These seem natural starting points for Don Elias's guide.