- Time of past OR future Camino
- CF 2023 sept/Oct
Primitivo July 2024
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The number of pilgrims...As most of you probably know, I loved my recent CF, but there were a few things I'd like to see different.
Thank you@davejsy I read some of your posts and it was delightful to see how much you enjoyed your first Camino. It was particularly welcome to see your joy and positivity in the context of recent threads. So, why even think about changing anything? One of my favourite things about 'the camino' - is that no-one is in charge, at least not we 'pilgrims/hikers/walkers'. There is no central improvement committee. For better or worse - I hope it remains so. For me, as long as I'm able to continue walking camino paths, I will adapt and make choices - rather than be concerned about making changes to the camino.
Lack of priests: They have to serve several churches, and can only keep open one at a time.I wish there were fewer locked, inaccessible churches. That may be because of fear of, or actual, vandalism. I was surprised how many churches were closed. I would have liked quiet time in many.
Not really a full explanation. You might need a priest for sacramental services. You don't need one to unlock the place or to keep an eye on it.Lack of priests: They have to serve several churches, and can only keep open one at a time.
Normally there is someone in the community with a key. If you want to go inside, normally they will arrange to let you in, however, it may not be exactly when you want.Lack of priests: They have to serve several churches, and can only keep open one at a time.
I used that line a month or so ago on his too many pilgrims comment! lol Part of the joy of Camino is the number of people walking and suffering the same path we are. If they weren't there it would have been dull and there would be fewer services available.It was inevitable that someone would say - the number of pilgrims. @alexwalker just got in first. I can understand the appeal of that on the Frances, especially at the busy times. But, as has been written on the forum before, or at least words to this effect - 'you are not stuck in traffic; you are traffic'.
Have to disagree. Yes - there would be fewer services. But "dull"? Not my experience. There are now 50 pilgrims on the Camino Frances for every one that I met on my first Camino. I could go for days without seeing another pilgrim. But it never once crossed my mind that it was "dull" and I couldn't even understand the question when a friend asked if I had been lonely.Part of the joy of Camino is the number of people walking and suffering the same path we are. If they weren't there it would have been dull and there would be fewer services available.
I knew I'd seen that saying somewhere recently.I used that line a month or so ago on his too many pilgrims comment! lol Part of the joy of Camino is the number of people walking and suffering the same path we are. If they weren't there it would have been dull and there would be fewer services available.
I would hand out something in SJPP (and post in each albergue) saying
Actually, yes - you're right. That's a change I would definitely support. Worth a try, at least.DO NOT LEAVE YOUR TOILET PAPER ON THE TRAIL!!!
BE RESPONSIBLE and PICK UP AFTER YOUSELF!
Annie, how about handing out rolls of TP with your message printed on everyI would hand out something in SJPP (and post in each albergue) saying
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR TOILET PAPER ON THE TRAIL!!!
BE RESPONSIBLE and PICK UP AFTER YOUSELF!
And as Alex said, fewer pilgrims.
Otherwise, I wouldn't change anything.
I know, but most firstimers/non Spanish don't. And I can't recall seeing it posted on the doors.Normally there is someone in the community with a key. If you want to go inside, normally they will arrange to let you in, however, it may not be exactly when you want.
And please add: "It is a criminal offense to vandalize signs with markers!"I would hand out something in SJPP (and post in each albergue) saying
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR TOILET PAPER ON THE TRAIL!!!
BE RESPONSIBLE and PICK UP AFTER YOUSELF!
A properly medieval solution might be to redistribute the relics to a number of convenient hubs across Europe. A huge trade at one time.Oh, simple!!! I would move the remains of St James to Roncesvalles!!
those people would just chuck that away wouldn't they?I would hand out something in SJPP (and post in each albergue) saying
DO NOT LEAVE YOUR TOILET PAPER ON THE TRAIL!!!
BE RESPONSIBLE and PICK UP AFTER YOUSELF!
And as Alex said, fewer pilgrims.
Otherwise, I wouldn't change anything.
A properly medieval solution might be to redistribute the relics to a number of convenient hubs across Europe. A huge trade at one time.
Which halfOr put half the remains in Roncesvalles? Making the Camino in Spain a dual carriageway?
This is very valid though, irrespective of the fact that each one of us is part of that potential problem.The number of pilgrims...
But I guess you could argue that the people are also a part of the whole, and those you mention are just as recent as some of the motorways? This is the tricky part.Not much, at least about the camino itself. The beautiful and ugly, the serene places and the parts near a motorway, the cities and vast empty spaces...all those things are part of a whole.
People are another story. I would love fewer entitled, rude, drunk, loud, rustling, talking-on-the-phone-at-night, alarm-clock-setting or otherwise annoying people. And they would likely love fewer killjoys like me. So I guess that doesn't go anywhere.
On a road or direction sign with a non-erasable marker I hope!And please add: "It is a criminal offense to vandalize signs with markers!"
For David SO loved his Camino that he took the only Spanish Saint "that counts" and moved Him to France (Codex Davidium Modernus cMMXXIV)Oh, simple!!! I would move the remains of St James to Roncesvalles!! Then pilgrims could walk from Santiago to Roncesvalles and I could walk through France to Roncesvalles - I SO loved my Camino in France, completely different experience to walking the Camino in Spain.
Not a joke - I am quite serious on that one!
Or put half the remains in Roncesvalles? Making the Camino in Spain a dual carriageway?
HHmm ... I guess the 100kms compostela dash would then be from Los Arcos as well as Sarria, halving the numbers
Ah yes!! We shall name it... "wealth redistribution" ... conveniently...A properly medieval solution might be to redistribute the relics to a number of convenient hubs across Europe. A huge trade at one time.
I can understand this wish. I’ve had those same thoughts. But, I now think of it another way. We are walking through areas / countries where people are living, working, commuting, going about their daily lives, maybe benefiting from improved infrastructure. As much as we may like these areas to stay as rural / natural as possible - as if time stood still - sometimes a modern road can make a huge difference to the lives and livelihoods of local people.For me, in my first post, improving the Camino where they have decided to put a 3 lane motorway next to it is something that could be done to return the Camino to a bit more like it was before the motorway etc
For David SO loved his Camino that he took the only Spanish Saint "that counts" and moved Him to France (Codex Davidium Modernus cMMXXIV)
Sorry couldn't resist
I am SHOCKED that you would proposed this!Set up each sign and marker with a system to SHOCK anyone who tries to write on it!
Every one of us who contributes to this forum that helps and encourages newbie pilgrims are part of the "problem."This is very valid though, irrespective of the fact that each one of us is part of that potential problem.
I was in a small village on the CF (the location escapes me). There was a small church near/next to the albergue. After my chores I set out to go inside. As I approached there was a man locking the door. In what little Spanish I knew, I asked if I could go inside for just a brief moment. He said no, the church is closed. As I walked away the man went and sat on a bench across from the church with his buddies for quiet a while. I was saddened and although I understand open and closed hours, I didn't understand the logic of him being right there sitting, holding the key to the church knowing someone wanted to take a peek inside.Normally there is someone in the community with a key. If you want to go inside, normally they will arrange to let you in, however, it may not be exactly when you want.
And, as are the not so newbies who walk the path, again and again.Every one of us who contributes to this forum that helps and encourages newbie pilgrims are part of the "problem."
Very true! CLOSE DOWN THE FORUMEvery one of us who contributes to this forum that helps and encourages newbie pilgrims are part of the "problem."
You can't, and you shouldn't.This is very valid though, irrespective of the fact that each one of us is part of that potential problem.
So in what kind of ways could you do this?
I walk up to nearly every church door, large or small, in both city and village that I pass by on my Caminos in every country. I have sometimes seen a local inside "manning the ship" at a small desk. I give a euro donation and they usually turn on the lights for me. That said, most churches in Spain are unfortunately locked.But I think it WOULD be nice if more churches were open.
I've noticed some will have a parishoner sit there with a stamp and keep an eye on things.
If you really want to walk just where people have walked for over a thousand years, you could start by ripping up many of the highways we walk near and put the Camino back where it used to be. ;-)Wouldn’t change a thing. I walked on sacred ground, walked by millions of feet for well over a thousand years. I am but a humbled visitor to that historic path.
I would love to see a phone number on every historic church which would lead either to a local person with a key (I expect a local grandmother) or someone who can reach that person. If you call, the church might be opened for you and shown off. Of course, a donation to the church upkeep would be reasonably expected in such circumstances and a sello might be provided.Not really a full explanation. You might need a priest for sacramental services. You don't need one to unlock the place or to keep an eye on it.
Maybe they can just rediscover the relics of Roland that they used to have in Roncesvalles. They did, after all, rediscover the relics of St. James in Santiago after they had been lost for a few hundred years after Galicia was threatened by Drake. It's not been that long since the Roland relics were reported seen in Roncesvalles, if my memory is correct.Oh, simple!!! I would move the remains of St James to Roncesvalles!! Then pilgrims could walk from Santiago to Roncesvalles and I could walk through France to Roncesvalles - I SO loved my Camino in France, completely different experience to walking the Camino in Spain.
Not a joke - I am quite serious on that one!
Or put half the remains in Roncesvalles? Making the Camino in Spain a dual carriageway?
HHmm ... I guess the 100kms compostela dash would then be from Los Arcos as well as Sarria, halving the numbers
What about buildings and signs with paint, as Don Elias was wont to do?And please add: "It is a criminal offense to vandalize signs with markers!"
Maybe they can just rediscover the relics of Roland that they used to have in Roncesvalles. ... It's not been that long since the Roland relics were reported seen in Roncesvalles, if my memory is correct.
That is quite traditional too. How Venice acquired their second patron saint for a start!Some Pilgrims stole them
Thanks, now I have even more history to dive into, learning something new every day, what a man he was!What about buildings and signs with paint, as Don Elias was wont to do?
Thank you. I was going to say that but didn't want to be a "Debbie Downer."If you really want to walk just where people have walked for over a thousand years, you could start by ripping up many of the highways we walk near and put the Camino back where it used to be. ;-)
[The medieval roads, with the most efficient route between towns, often evolved into the modern highways. The Camino was re-routed to nearby quieter roads and paths.]
... and through SOME villages and around others, depending on what the locals wanted.[The medieval roads, with the most efficient route between towns, often evolved into the modern highways. The Camino was re-routed to nearby quieter roads and paths.]
LOL I often feel that the internets are reading my mind as I'll think something and shortly after a corresponding image will appear somewhere. Everything is connected! The Overlords know all!If I needed more evidence that my phone is spying on my posts this is it. Popped up in my Facebook feed about two minutes after replying to your post!
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I walked Ingles at the end of October and it was very quiet. Aside from a school class that was walking Camino, my sister and I only saw 2-4 others each day. I didn't mind that the trail was empty and didn't expect to see many people at that time of year, but I did find that the one thing I missed was the endless "Buen Camino!" greetings. It made me a bit sad.I knew I'd seen that saying somewhere recently.
Hhmmm as for crowds ... I'm not too comfortable with crowds in my usual life- so it's no surprise to me that these days I seek out quieter paths or quieter times of the year. But I see the onus on me to adapt, not the other way around. Also, I've never found the quieter paths dull and the lack of services can be a challenge, but nothing drastic. I've walked some paths (with my husband) where we could count the number of other pilgrims/hikers/walkers we saw on one hand - e.g. Mozarabe, Madrid, Piemont, Baztan. We didn't mind that, but it made for a real treat to come across others when we did.
The right.Which half
@David Tallan also. I understand and realize how much the route/roads have changed over the years to make way for convenience and modernization (I am at times naive but this isn’t one of themThank you. I was going to say that but didn't want to be a "Debbie Downer."
Those paths have changed a lot over the years, and still do!
Insurance agencies insist on it. In the 90s there was a string of thefts of paintings, retablos, statues, etc from Spanish churches-- warehouses were filled and sold to collectors who did not ask any questions. So the churches came to be locked--but the key is usually easily obtained from a local. As well, churches were locked in areas where local sentiments were... strong.Not really a full explanation. You might need a priest for sacramental services. You don't need one to unlock the place or to keep an eye on it.
Exactly, and more could be done to negate the impact they have on the rerouted Camino IMO. Some places the Camino is turned into gravel track with a metal fence between you and the motorway, a few trees or hedges would improve both the experience and the environment IMO.Thank you. I was going to say that but didn't want to be a "Debbie Downer."
Those paths have changed a lot over the years, and still do!
Yes, here in Greece, while churches are often locked, there is usually someone in the village who has the key and will open it for you if you ask.Not really a full explanation. You might need a priest for sacramental services. You don't need one to unlock the place or to keep an eye on it.
Lack of priests: They have to serve several churches, and can only keep open one at a time.
It is indeed amazing what people get into their heads. But facts beat anything: This has been going on for many years: Complete work overload on the priests in Spain, back 15 years ago. And it must surely be much worse today:It's amazing what people get into their heads. Priests rock up to the churches in their parish and say a 30 minute mass.
They'll also be there for confessions, funerals, weddings etc. but they don't spend most of their working day in the church and definitely aren't responsible for opening up and locking up. That's the job of the sacristan.
I would establish a user fee of $20 per pilgrim to establish a way to cover the costs (especially in rural areas) for the clean up of the trash some pilgrims leave along the way. These small towns and villages shouldn't bear the brunt of pilgrim abuse, and it would create an income stream in these areas where employment is hard to come by. Plus, at $20/20 Euros, it wouldn't break a pilgrim.Ok, so inspired by the "Has the Camino lost it's way" thread. What would people change to the current Camino (CF) to make it better in their own eyes/opinion whatever that may be (without breaking any forum rules obvs)? It could be stuff like removing or increasing the 100km etc.
As most of you probably know, I loved my recent CF, but there were a few things I'd like to see different.
I can start with this:
Where major roads/motorways/railways have been built through or close to the Camino, where feasible the Camino could be routed further from these. Where not feasible maybe more could be done to lessen the impact by planting trees or similar to lessen the noise effects? I understand some drudgery is part of the Camino such as the walks in to the cities etc and it has it's place and not what I'd change, but things like the above that are cut through the countryside could be made better I think.
You can change that by not staying in albergues!Not much, at least about the camino itself. The beautiful and ugly, the serene places and the parts near a motorway, the cities and vast empty spaces...all those things are part of a whole.
People are another story. I would love fewer entitled, rude, drunk, loud, rustling, talking-on-the-phone-at-night, alarm-clock-setting or otherwise annoying people. And they would likely love fewer killjoys like me. So I guess that doesn't go anywhere.
An interesting proposal. Not immediately convinced it would be practical though. When and how would you collect the fee?I would establish a user fee of $20 per pilgrim to establish a way to cover the costs (especially in rural areas) for the clean up of the trash some pilgrims leave along the way.
This is a great idea, but I think it would be a nightmare to try and collect the money or enforce it. I guess one option would be that it's charged when you purchase your credential perhaps.I would establish a user fee of $20 per pilgrim to establish a way to cover the costs (especially in rural areas) for the clean up of the trash some pilgrims leave along the way. These small towns and villages shouldn't bear the brunt of pilgrim abuse, and it would create an income stream in these areas where employment is hard to come by. Plus, at $20/20 Euros, it wouldn't break a pilgrim.
I would establish a user fee of $20 per pilgrim to establish a way to cover the costs (especially in rural areas) for the clean up of the trash some pilgrims leave along the way. These small towns and villages shouldn't bear the brunt of pilgrim abuse, and it would create an income stream in these areas where employment is hard to come by. Plus, at $20/20 Euros, it wouldn't break a pilgrim.
Absolutely agree - infantile graffiti - few things more annoying.And please add: "It is a criminal offense to vandalize signs with markers!"
Being polite I should just call that a quirky suggestion with no possibility of realisation.Oh, simple!!! I would move the remains of St James to Roncesvalles!! Then pilgrims could walk from Santiago to Roncesvalles and I could walk through France to Roncesvalles - I SO loved my Camino in France, completely different experience to walking the Camino in Spain.
Not a joke - I am quite serious on that one!
Or put half the remains in Roncesvalles? Making the Camino in Spain a dual carriageway?
HHmm ... I guess the 100kms compostela dash would then be from Los Arcos as well as Sarria, halving the numbers
This would work if they had any shame. But they probably don't. And tearing up a credential would likely get you a fist in your face. Better to make peace with the inevitable fact that we share the world with idiots, and nothing can fix that.I would be in favour of tearing up the credential of anyone caught littering or vandalising as well as publish their name on a website.
You can, maybe. But not everyone is so well off. I am refraining myself from further expressing what I feel, as it breaks the Rule 3.You can change that by not staying in albergues
I can recall hearing stories of that happening on my first and second Caminos. That a hospitalero who found a pilgrim's behaviour unacceptable tore up their credencial. But it may simply have been a rural myth told to keep us delinquents in order.This would work if they had any shame. But they probably don't. And tearing up a credential would likely get you a fist in your face.
Yes.Every one of us who contributes to this forum that helps and encourages newbie pilgrims are part of the "problem."
An interesting concept; however, there are too many things regarding myself that I need to focus on and change rather than the Camino. In addition, be wary of changes because very few people of aware of the real consequences of change--the intended consequences of change are often quite different from the realistic consequences of change. This even applies to changes to oneself. Furthermore, in a sense the Camino itself is a living, breathing, organic entity that is forever changing whether it is to one's liking or not. Just my individual perspective, nothing more, nothing less.Ok, so inspired by the "Has the Camino lost it's way" thread. What would people change to the current Camino (CF) to make it better in their own eyes/opinion whatever that may be (without breaking any forum rules obvs)? It could be stuff like removing or increasing the 100km etc.
As most of you probably know, I loved my recent CF, but there were a few things I'd like to see different.
I can start with this:
Where major roads/motorways/railways have been built through or close to the Camino, where feasible the Camino could be routed further from these. Where not feasible maybe more could be done to lessen the impact by planting trees or similar to lessen the noise effects? I understand some drudgery is part of the Camino such as the walks in to the cities etc and it has it's place and not what I'd change, but things like the above that are cut through the countryside could be made better I think.
Not a bad idea, actally! But complicated to implement.I would love a few albergues designated as “silent” in the sleeping rooms. I get snoring, etc can’t be regulated lol, but loud talking late at night or early morning can
Sadly I agree. So many people who would just assume that they are a legitimate exception to the rule because......Not a bad idea, actally! But complicated to implement.
I'd never realised this was a thing (naive one-time pilgrim here), Albergues are surely only meant for those doing the Camino under their own steam (perhaps exclusions available for those astride donkeys/horsesAnd I wish those on tours, especially those being shuffled by buses, could be accommodated in places other than pilgrim only albergues.
The phrase appears to be a variant of the cycling lobby’s standard defence: we are not holding up traffic; we are traffic!’It was inevitable that someone would say - the number of pilgrims…as has been written on the forum before, or at least words to this effect - 'you are not stuck in traffic; you are traffic'.
In Pamplona, I saw a group of women driven right up to the city albergue, unload their monster suitcases and enter for accommodation. It's a cheap bed. And they get a stamp. I saw the same thing in a smaller village later on my walk. this time they were being picked up to be moved to the next accommodation. Unfortunately, there is really no way to regulate this unless the tour operators decide it's unfair.I'd never realised this was a thing (naive one-time pilgrim here), Albergues are surely only meant for those doing the Camino under their own steam (perhaps exclusions available for those astride donkeys/horses?
I think there is some rule in some places that those on bike's are only accepted after a later check-in time compared to those on foot? It's a shame something similar couldn't be done for those you highlight, although you would hope any tour operator would ensure the Albergues weren't abused in this way (although I guess many Albergues need the extra money of these people perhaps).
Not all albergues have strict rules, but the ones I have worked in specify that you need to be walking and carrying your own pack. Pilgrims on bicycles may be admitted later in the day in some cases. At one albergue we were even advised that if pilgrims came from a certain direction that they were disembarking the bus and they should be very heavily quizzed about whether they had been walking, why they were on the bus, etc.In Pamplona, I saw a group of women driven right up to the city albergue, unload their monster suitcases and enter for accommodation. It's a cheap bed. And they get a stamp. I saw the same thing in a smaller village later on my walk. this time they were being picked up to be moved to the next accommodation. Unfortunately, there is really no way to regulate this unless the tour operators decide it's unfair.
Another issue -- related, but at the other end of the spectrum: During peak, a few albergues will only take those who have traveled a minimum distance on foot. That's a problem if you are walking, but incapable of going long distances. I only encountered that once when I had a foot injury and could only travel at a snail's pace for 10 km. They let me in eventually once they saw they weren't full, but it was a tense few hours. I do think albergues should accommodate the elderly and infirm and allow short legs. And certainly not turn them away in favor of those moving via van. After all, it's a spiritual journey and those not capable of walking more than 10 km in a day are just as validly walking.
Thank goodness there are so many other Caminos one can walk that most would never even consider.The number of pilgrims...
Another example of the joyful axiom of everyone “walking their own camino”.Not all albergues have strict rules, but the ones I have worked in specify that you need to be walking and carrying your own pack. Pilgrims on bicycles may be admitted later in the day in some cases. At one albergue we were even advised that if pilgrims came from a certain direction that they were disembarking the bus and they should be very heavily quizzed about whether they had been walking, why they were on the bus, etc.
Phil had a case in Estella where a couple of pilgrims came to the albergue to see if there would be room for their friends/group and said they were traveling with their priest. He was not full and didn't think about it too much and said he would most likely have room. They arrived and checked in. It was only after the fact that he realized they could not have walked as far as their credentials stated and they were traveling on a tour bus. They were not very considerate pilgrims and were eating all the food that other pilgrims had purchased and put in the refrigerator and labeled. The next morning he had difficulty getting them to leave on time possibly because their bus was not leaving until a bit later. There were obviously some differences in the etiquette and behavior. It takes a few days of staying in albergues to adapt (and some never do).
I think it's more an example of the fact you can come across inconsiderate / selfish / dishonest / choose your own adjective ... people everywhere, even on a Camino path. But hopefully they are by far the exception.Another example of the joyful axiom of everyone “walking their own camino”.
Thankfully, I am happy to say that they (the bad apples) have always been the exception for me on my Caminos.I think it's more an example of the fact you can come across inconsiderate / selfish / dishonest / choose your own adjective ... people everywhere, even on a Camino path. But hopefully they are by far the exception.
I know that is the case but I am still puzzled by the logic behind it. What difference does it make? If you are not carrying either then there is no real difference in practice between a rucksack and a suitcase. They are both luggage. Why is one more acceptable than another?We've had pilgrims on this forum surprised when some hotels (and albergues) will accept only backpacks and not suitcases
I agree. Why would one bring two backpacks on the Camino if they only plan to carry one?I know that is the case but I am still puzzled by the logic behind it. What difference does it make? If you are not carrying either then there is no real difference in practice between a rucksack and a suitcase. They are both luggage. Why is one more acceptable than another?
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