"What a hardcore thru-hiker can learn on the Camino de Santiago"

[Bradypus]

I just read this long article by an experienced long distance wilderness hiker on what can be learned from the very different experience of walking a Camino. A very different perspective from the famous article "10 Reasons Why El Camino Santiago Sucks" by Francis Tapon which for a number of years was in the top ten Google results if you searched for "Camino Santiago".

What a Hardcore Thru-Hiker Can Learn on the Camino de Santiago - The Trek

This is a guest post by Tim Mathis. ’ve hiked the PCT and the Tahoe Rim Trail and thousands of miles of wilderness in the Americas, Europe, and New Zealand. I say that up front to establish some credibility, because I know how some thru-hikers get when I tell them that my favorite long trail is...

thetrek.co

 

[jungleboy]

Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting perspective. I thought this was the most instructive part:

There’s this popular, but false, image of pilgrimage as the solitary quest of a lonely wanderer searching for enlightenment. On the Camino, that image doesn’t survive for long. As soon as you arrive, you’re surrounded by crowds of travelers from all over the world. You sleep in communal hostels, you eat dinner in bars full of other pilgrims, and you pass through a steady stream of communities that are supported almost exclusively by the Camino economy.

This is the nature of the vast majority of traditional pilgrimages, from the Hajj to Mecca, to the journey to Bodh Gaya in India, to the festival of the Virgin of Guadeloupe in Mexico. They happen in crowds.

This isn’t a bug in the system. It’s a feature.

That's worth keeping in mind as we go through another year of 'Is the camino too crowded?' type threads.

Although the part below goes against the typical wisdom here, which is to try to lower expectations of first-timers because the experience may not be as life-changing as they'd thought it would be:

A final thing that people have a hard time dealing with in Camino culture is the pervasive sense of faith that surrounds it. I don’t mean religion. I mean the simple acceptance that the Camino is a walk that will change your life.

It’s true. It’s all so cringe-inducingly earnest.

Here’s the thing though: that faith is well-founded, and the last lesson the Camino has for thru-hikers is to lean into it. Make it weird. Admit that you’re going on trail looking for magic. In all likelihood, you’re going to find it.

 

[Rebekah Scott]

he got a little incoherent with his point #2, could've done a little research on the legal protections the camino's gained in the last 30 years. The info is not hard to find. He left it dangling, as if the Camino only really resurrected after Covid.
Still, it is a very interesting article and I enjoyed reading it. Nice to see a fresh point of view that's not all snark or gush.

 

[Becky 59]

Interesting, thanks for posting the link. It's interesting how he compared "Camino families" and "trail families" that crop up on the thru-hikes.

 

[davejsy]

This is really cool, and the analogies are well represented and you can see where he is coming from. It's a down-to-earth view without letting pre-conceived ideas cloud judgment too much, all from someone you might not expect it from.

 

[Andorinha]

Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting perspective. I thought this was the most instructive part:



That's worth keeping in mind as we go through another year of 'Is the camino too crowded?' type threads.

Although the part below goes against the typical wisdom here, which is to try to lower expectations of first-timers because the experience may not be as life-changing as they'd thought it would be:

Nice, right! I think I saw "Fast Hiker" Youtuber say - and I paraphrase, we want the entire world to start walking to places again, so crowds, the bigger the crowd the more forward thinking the Camino will become. Walk town to town, enjoy the novelty of each bend, and marvel that people are drawn to walking in a group. Listen/Read Canterbury Tales, the tales are not even about the walk itself, because it was so normalized then, and I think normalizing walking to a place, even if far off, is beautiful.

 

[Elle Bieling]

I liked it! After having just completed the West Highland Way, while not a truly long distance "through hike," I found myself being unable to stop calling the other walkers "pilgrims." The "sacred" beauty of the wild places in Scotland, that yes, was shared by many others, did not fail to strike "transcendence" in me as the author describes.

I do wish he had made a statment about the physical part of both experiences. The sheer joy of the transcendence accomplished with ones physcial achievement is part of the thrill. Maybe that just goes without saying. But as a yogini, I believe one's mental and physical states are so sublimely intertwined, that one effects the other in unexpected ways.

 

[Gobsmacked by the World]

Great article! As a former hardcore Punk ( those pictures have all been destroyed…so don’t ask) I found the intro hilarious.
If any counterculture trend is to develop, please God let it involve us putting our phones away and going for a long, long, walk.

To echo off the ideas of the benefits of being in nature. A favourite film of mine is Wild, with Reese Witherspoon. The trajectory of the person, whose life was in complete free fall, being healed by “putting herself in the way of beauty” was inspiring.

 

[Flog]

Interesting article, thanks! The author admits that us 'dorks' have more in common with his brethren than he likes to admit!

 

[good_old_shoes]

Thanks for sharing!

I really like this quote:

"This is the nature of the vast majority of traditional pilgrimages [...] They happen in crowds.

This isn’t a bug in the system. It’s a feature."

I'll probably borrow that last sentence often from now on!

 

[Friend from Barquinha]

I really liked this! I haven't attempted a caminho yet, but I am more and more drawn to it...and this writer's explanation of the community, and the communality of having attempted something like this...particularly.

It very much reminded me of the common experience shared by offshore oceancruisers, years ago, in the days before boats got complex and really pricey. True, there was first an investment, major or minor, in a boat to travel in, but once you were "out there"--I guess the parallel being "on the caminho"--you and your fellow travellers had real bonds, and mutual dependence--based on being on your own, compared with the rest of the world whirllng by...I am still friends with, and share a lot with, a few friends I shared adventures with, 40 years ago...

Both long-distance hiking in general, and the caminos in particular, sound similar.

 

[HenroDon]

If you're looking for a pilgrimage where you can be alone with your thoughts a lot of or most of the time, look into the Shikoku 88 temples Buddhist pilgrimage in Japan.

 

[JabbaPapa]

If you're looking for a pilgrimage where you can be alone with your thoughts a lot of or most of the time, look into the Shikoku 88 temples Buddhist pilgrimage in Japan.

There are several route options for the Way of Saint James that are quite lonely until you reach the final stretch into Santiago.

Similar as to the Ways to Rome.

It's an interesting article, though as to :

It’s a long walk across a whole country, but compared to the long trails in the States, it’s pretty soft. There are towns, hostels, and bars at two-hour intervals the entire way. It can be genuinely busy, with something near half a million people walking every year. There’s no actual wilderness involved.

It's of course not "a long walk" but a huge network of pilgrimage Ways, some of which are longer than any of the Triple Crown thru-hikes, and some of which do pass through wilderness and semi-wilderness.

Sometimes you will be completely alone on your walk, though even on a very long and solitary Camino, the dense rural and semi-rural infrastructures of Western Europe do mean that you will be seeing local people and passing through villages virtually every day.

But this is Europe versus the USA, not Camino versus thru-hikes -- even on the Via Alpina, which is longer and topographically more challenging than any of the Triple Crown thru-hikes (which will certainly be more challenging in other ways), you will be passing through villages and towns with some frequency, and the mountain lodges along the VA will more frequently offer food and a degree of comfort, instead of it being nearly always camping out in the wilderness, though that's necessary too. At least as I understand things from reading about the VA.

It's really the difference between long-distance hiking in a Continent developed from thousands of years of civilisational development and one with about 500 years of it. Most of the Central and Western European Wildernesses have been either tamed or constrained, whereas only a portion of the American ones have been.

The challenges are both different and similar -- but to draw comparisons between the Francès in solitary and the PCT, CDT, and AT as a conglomerate will necessarily be misleading.

 

[Flog]

Good points. To give his piece more weight, his statement that 'there are towns, hostels, and bars at two-hour intervals the entire way' does ignore the fact that The Ways are a whole network of paths and feeds into the impression, which still prevails, that The Way according to Martin Sheen, is the only camino path in existence. I though it a good article nonetheless..

 

[David Tallan]

It’s a long walk across a whole country, but compared to the long trails in the States, it’s pretty soft. There are towns, hostels, and bars at two-hour intervals the entire way. It can be genuinely busy, with something near half a million people walking every year. There’s no actual wilderness involved.

It's of course not "a long walk" but a huge network of pilgrimage Ways, some of which are longer than any of the Triple Crown thru-hikes, and some of which do pass through wilderness and semi-wilderness.

For us Camino afficionados, you are certainly correct. For the audience of this particular article, "Camino" is going to refer to the Frances or one of the more popular routes in Spain, for which he has provided a not inaccurate description. The percentage of people each year who walk a Camino longer than a Yriple Crown thru-hike through wilderness and semi-wilderness is small enough, compared to the percentage of people walking the Frances, that I think the author is justified in describing the latter rather than the former.

 

[Kathor1]

For the audience of this particular article, "Camino" is going to refer to the Frances or one of the more popular routes in Spain, for which he has provided a not inaccurate description

I agree. The audience of this article is the typical thru-hiker and not the typical Camino peregrino. As @Bradypus said at the beginning of the thread the article is a different perspective, a nice antidote if you like, to Francis Tapon's article - an article, btw, that I only vaguely remember now but I don't remember it as negative as its title made it sound and where numerous forum reactions were a response to the provocative title and not to the content. Recollections may vary, of course.

The writer has experience of both - the famous long-distance wilderness trails in the USA and the famous Camino Francés in Spain (Europe) with its cultural background that formed and shaped it throughout many centuries.

On the forum one can read the slogan "It's a pilgrimage and not a hike". It is often said by posters who had never been on a long-distance trail anywhere else and who never looked at a forum like White Blaze and never tried to learn about the AT/PCT/CDT subculture. They only know the contemporary Camino subculture, formed by their own experience and perhaps even more so by the consumption of Camino content on YouTube, on social media platforms, in movies and books and blogs.

IMHO, there is not only a connection between a long walk and transcendence (point 1 in the article), there are evident parallels between the spiritual / mental / emotional aspects and benefits of Camino-type long walks/pilgrimages and of AT-type long walks/hikes. I don't agree with everything he says in this first point of the article but I agree with this: "You’ll encounter God-talk on the Camino, but the route’s resurgence has been primarily driven by non-religious hikers. Estimates are that less than 30 percent of people on the modern Camino walk for anything like religious reasons. A big part of the appeal is that it passes through these places that trigger these experiences of transcendence." Even many of those who claim spiritual-religious reasons as a motive for their Camino would not indicate this as their only or most important motive.

BTW and referring to one of the posts in the thread (we talked about this earlier), afaik the neologism "trail family" predates the term "Camino family" by many years.

 

[Bradypus]

a nice antidote if you like, to Francis Tapon's article - an article, btw, that I only vaguely remember now but I don't remember it as negative as its title made it sound and where numerous forum reactions were a response to the provocative title and not to the content. Recollections may vary, of course.

The Francis Tapon article is still available online. I just read through it again. Although he does list points in favour of the Caminos Tapon's main issue with the Camino is that it is simply not wild and remote enough for his liking. A mismatch between expectation and reality. The Tim Mathis article starts from a very different position - recognising from the start that a long-distance wilderness trail and a Camino are fundamentally different in character and then finding more positive elements in the difference.

El Camino Sucks

Learn about the 10 best and worst things about El Camino de Santiago. It is the world's most popular long distance trail. It's also the most overrated. One can

francistapon.com

 

[CWBuff]

Here is something else I stumbled upon today:
Conflicting Times on Camino de santiago

 

[jungleboy]

Here is something else I stumbled upon today:
Conflicting Times on Camino de santiago

Thanks for sharing this. I met the author on the Meseta on the 2017 camino she referenced. She was studying pilgrimage in general (eg she had worked on the filming of a pilgrimage documentary in Tibet) and I found her to be very interesting.

Many of us here are a bit dismayed at the ever-increasing numbers on the Francés, but typically from a me-first perspective (eg I want peace and quiet, I don’t want to race for a bed, I don’t want to book ahead). So it’s always good to be reminded of the impact (whether positive or negative) of the camino in general on local communities, and the article gives us some welcome perspective on this.

 

[CWBuff]

As always I fully understand the 'to each his own ' but Tapon article left a very bad taste in my mouth. Quite condescending and a times disrespectful IMHO. One of the things I especially 'liked' was rent a bike but don't go on icky paved roads and rather stick to the Camino path (the same path he earlier complained is not wide enough to walk side by side and have a nice conversation)

 

[JabbaPapa]

For us Camino afficionados, you are certainly correct. For the audience of this particular article, "Camino" is going to refer to the Frances or one of the more popular routes in Spain, for which he has provided a not inaccurate description. The percentage of people each year who walk a Camino longer than a [T]riple Crown thru-hike through wilderness and semi-wilderness is small enough, compared to the percentage of people walking the Frances, that I think the author is justified in describing the latter rather than the former.

Of course I understand that point, but apart from the fact that treating "the" Camino as one particular route "starting" in SJPP and ending in either Santiago or Fisterra is a major cause of the overcrowding being discussed in another thread -- it does a disservice to the PCT/CDT/AT thru-hikers contemplating a Camino by reinforcing their expectations to the detriment of some alternative Camino routes that might suit them better.

My own impression from US thru-hikers I have met along the Way who started from Le Puy is that they seemed to have had a generally more positive experience from their thru-hiker perspective than I found among those who started from SJPP. Among the latter, I have found some people very dismissive of the Camino as "too easy", not so much among the former.

I have encountered European hiking enthusiasts on nearly every pilgrimage route that I've set foot upon, including some very solitary ones, and I don't see why their American cousins should be told that "the" Camino is the Francès. Of course US thru-hikers tend to see hiking routes as having fixed "start" points, and there of course are many European GR routes with similar characteristics, but it would still be helpful IMO if these PCT/CDT/AT versus the Camino articles did more frequently point out this massive difference between the two, that the foot pilgrimage destinations in Europe, even minor local ones, typically have a multiplicity of starting points and routes rather than a singular one (exceptions such as the Assisi route and the Camino Ignaciano withstanding).

I am BTW only commenting on the one part of the article that I have any issue with, I'm certainly not dissing the article as a whole.

 

[Bradypus]

Of course US thru-hikers tend to see hiking routes as having fixed "start" points,

And "end" points. On Facebook quite recently I saw some comment on the proposal to charge for entry to the Obradoiro - on similar lines to a proposal for a tourist charge to enter the Plaza de España in Sevilla. One person objected that it would stop pilgrims from completing their pilgrimages because all Caminos end at the inscribed stone in the Obradoiro which marks the recognition of the Caminos as a World Heritage Site by UNESCO in 1993. That was certainly news to me!

 

[David Tallan]

And "end" points. On Facebook quite recently I saw some comment on the proposal to charge for entry to the Obradoiro - on similar lines to a proposal for a tourist charge to enter the Plaza de España in Sevilla. One person objected that it would stop pilgrims from completing their pilgrimages because all Caminos end at the inscribed stone in the Obradoiro which marks the recognition of the Caminos as a World Heritage Site by UNESCO in 1993. That was certainly news to me!

I've always considered the true "KM0" to be the relics of the saint. They are the foundation of the route.

 

[Bradypus]

I've always considered the true "KM0" to be the relics of the saint. They are the foundation of the route.

Johnnie Walker tells me that when he was involved in running the pilgrim office he suggested that the cathedral install a KM0 marker somewhere near the cathedral doors as a photo opportunity. The Dean at the time gave him a ticking-off and said that the Apostle's reliquary is and always has been the end of the pilgrimage and no other marker was needed. A point which the pilgrim office website makes quite eloquently on its homepage.

 

[jungleboy]

Johnnie Walker tells me that when he was involved in running the pilgrim office he suggested that the cathedral install a KM0 marker somewhere near the cathedral doors as a photo opportunity. The Dean at the time gave him a ticking-off and said that the Apostle's reliquary is and always has been the end of the pilgrimage and no other marker was needed. A point which the pilgrim office website makes quite eloquently on its homepage.

I walked the Inglés last year with first-timer friends who were amazed at the lack of a KM0 marker in Santiago. Maybe given the secularisation of the camino and the relaxing of requirements for the compostela in recent years, it could be time to revisit the idea of that marker.

 

[Bradypus]

it could be time to revisit the idea of that marker.

I think that would be an official confirmation that the Caminos are no longer to be seen as a pilgrimage to the tomb of the Apostle but are simply a long distance walk without any particular religious significance. If someone wants an explicitly non-religious end point for their journey then of course they are free to choose one for themselves. I find myself agreeing with Don Segundo that it is not something the cathedral should actively encourage.

 

[CWBuff]

Re: above threads about KM0 marker at the Cathedral
With all Respect Due to many folks who might think differently perhaps it's a great chance for some of us politely but firmly to remind them of the fact that St.James' tomb is the end of the line.

And speaking of that's another thing I didn't like in the article- retelling the legend and then declaring "of course they are not his bones" sorry pal but your knowledge on the subject is as good as the rest of us namely 0, but some choose just simply to believe

 

[bakedbeans]

Nice article.

There is no real distinction between a Camino and any other long-distance hikes. Not that it matters but there a lot of Caminos where you can easily go many days without meeting another pilgrim. Can the same be said of the PCT or AT? There is no wilderness like North America in Spain or in the entirety of Western Europe really. Does it matter? I don't see why.

The comforts of Caminos, the hostels, shops and bars, enhance the experience not detract. I like sleeping in real beds and having a shower. I like not caring too much about where my next meal is coming from. Arriving at some random Spanish bar and asking for vino tinto and menu del dia beats eating noodles and peanuts for dinner in a tent any day. Maybe there's an Anglo / Protestant thing for suffering that has worked its way into US hiking culture.

I have excellent camping gear and regularly use it but it's all extra work and less comfort.

 

[JabbaPapa]

There is no real distinction between a Camino and any other long-distance hikes. Not that it matters but there a lot of Caminos where you can easily go many days without meeting another pilgrim. Can the same be said of the PCT or AT?

There are differences and there are similarities -- the main difference between most Caminos and the big three US thru-hikes is the distance ; just 500 miles for a "full Camino" if it's just the Francès from SJPP.

There is no wilderness like North America in Spain or in the entirety of Western Europe really.

There is some real wilderness in Western Europe, notably in Spain, and a few patches of it here and there elsewhere -- but only some short sections of Camino routes pass through true wilderness, but instead they avoid it because Camino routes go from parish to parish.

I had a fair amount of wilderness hiking in eastern Portugal in 2022 on my way towards Fátima.

Does it matter? I don't see why.

It does to the people who want that wilderness hiking.

Mountain and crest trail Camino routes do exist OTOH.

The comforts of Caminos, the hostels, shops and bars, enhance the experience not detract. I like sleeping in real beds and having a shower. I like not caring too much about where my next meal is coming from. Arriving at some random Spanish bar and asking for vino tinto and menu del dia beats eating noodles and peanuts for dinner in a tent any day. Maybe there's an Anglo / Protestant thing for suffering that has worked its way into US hiking culture.

I have excellent camping gear and regularly use it but it's all extra work and less comfort.

Well, if you walk a Camino several thousand miles long and mostly outside of the popular routes and without a huge amount of money, then there are no such guarantees for comfort. You are unlikely not to come across at least a small village shop for food in any two-day period, and being unable to find even the basic shelter of a wall to sleep against for protection against the wind is unusual, and often you can find a place to sleep with cover against the rain -- so there are some fundamental differences.

But to really combine both worlds, it would be interesting to see if anyone in the forum ended up walking from San Diego to Santiago de Compostela starting on this Camino route :

Thread 'Caminos in the USA: Are you ready for the big one?'

Dec 15, 2024

We are on the second day walking the Camino de la Unidad. This is an officially sanctioned Camino route. See attached Credential. See attached. And the sellos along the way are special.

But wait there's more...much more. In the Credential is a route map of the Camino en USA. Wow! Anyone up to walking this mega Camino?

Of course, there route is not yet sanctioned, not are other pilgrimage walks, such as the Camino de Wisconsin, Chimayo in New Mexico and Cataldo in Idaho. But the Missions Trail near San Antonio is sanctioned.

Any I missed?

• Anthony Rocco
• Replies: 10
• Camino de Santiago Forum: North America and Caribbean

• 
• 
• 

... then maybe Jacksonville > Paris, and Paris > Santiago on foot or something ?

 

[good_old_shoes]

There is no real distinction between a Camino and any other long-distance hikes

I'd disagree with that.

Yes there are many similarities.

And yes, there are some Camino routes that are more remote (and that also lack comfort, and / or might even require a tent unless you happen to be rich).

But there's some major differences between the Camino pilgrimage routes and "any other long distance hike", also.

Even when you walk the more remote / lesser walked routes.

a) hikes tend to lead people away from civilisation if possible. The Caminos usually try to lead you through civilisation.

b) hikes tend to use the more scenic route even if it is more remote, harder and / or longer, while the Caminos often choose the easier to walk and more direct / shorter paths even if that means there'll be roadwalking, industrial areas ect.

c) hikes focus on outer beauty (landscape, nature) while pilgrimage routes usually do not, even though they can be beautiful of course, but it is not what they're primarily meant for.

d) A pilgrimage walk like the Camino attracts a much more diverse crowd (hikers, non hikers, sportive people, couch potatos,...) while classic "hikes" are mainly walked by, well, hikers. Many of the people you'll meet on the more popular Camino routes would never even consider walking "any other long distance hike".

d) and let's not forget the fact that a pilgrimage has a religious and cultural meaning that "any other long distance hike" has not.

Not saying one is better than the other (I enjoy both!) but there is a difference (at least to me) between "any other long distance hike" and the Camino.

I certainly expect very different things when doing a "normal" hike vs. a Camino.

 

[bakedbeans]

I'd disagree with that.

Yes there are many similarities.

And yes, there are some Camino routes that are more remote (and that also lack comfort, and / or might even require a tent unless you happen to be rich).

But there's some major differences between the Camino pilgrimage routes and "any other long distance hike", also.

Even when you walk the more remote / lesser walked routes.

a) hikes tend to lead people away from civilisation if possible. The Caminos usually try to lead you through civilisation.

b) hikes tend to use the more scenic route even if it is more remote, harder and / or longer, while the Caminos often choose the easier to walk and more direct / shorter paths even if that means there'll be roadwalking, industrial areas ect.

c) hikes focus on outer beauty (landscape, nature) while pilgrimage routes usually do not, even though they can be beautiful of course, but it is not what they're primarily meant for.

d) A pilgrimage walk like the Camino attracts a much more diverse crowd (hikers, non hikers, sportive people, couch potatos,...) while classic "hikes" are mainly walked by, well, hikers. Many of the people you'll meet on the more popular Camino routes would never even consider walking "any other long distance hike".

d) and let's not forget the fact that a pilgrimage has a religious and cultural meaning that "any other long distance hike" has not.

Not saying one is better than the other (I enjoy both!) but there is a difference (at least to me) between "any other long distance hike" and the Camino.

I certainly expect very different things when doing a "normal" hike vs. a Camino.

By comment I really mean the spirit of the article (and broadly my opinion) there is no distinction. I.e. the reasons to walk and what you expect out of a Camino or a PCT are similar. Or at least I think they are. It's not about the practical aspects, who goes on them, or why a particular route was chosen.