Visigothic/Pre-Romanesque architecture for beginners

VNwalking · Dec 10, 2020

jungleboy said:
we have not talked about the Cámara Santa in this thread yet, and we should because it's amazing

Thank you for posting this photo, @jungleboy ! It really gives a sense of the place.
(I love that window, BTW, simple beauty.)

This ermita (below) would certainly qualify timing-wise as generically Pre-Romanesque. But I can't find any details about it. Anyone know it?

oursonpolaire said:
I wonder if the Ermita of San Bartolomeo in Caborredondo in Cantabria (on the del Norte) would qualify? It is a 9th century rectangular church in the middle of the pueblo. I do not know if it be still in use, even at fiestas.

And...this topic is an endlessly opening nested box...looking around I found this page on the site that I referred to in my list and that @Rebekah Scott told us about a while ago. It's a huge site, so there's lots to find, and lots one could easly miss:

Asturian and Mozarabic Art in Cantabria - Turismo Prerrománico

We propose a three day long trip to visit the most interesting monuments of the Asturian Pre Romanesque art and three first churches of resettlement in Cantabria.

www.turismo-prerromanico.com

What caught my eye were these because presumably they look to be within striking distance of caminos:
On the Lebaniego:

oursonpolaire · Dec 11, 2020

@VNwalking I don'T have any more details than the vague date which I found on the provincial tourism site. Often Spanish wiki is helpful, but not this time. I think that there was very little on the information board when I passed through the pueblo as my normal practice is to take a shot of the board for future reference and I did not do so-- but somebody passing by may be able to improve upon my recollection.

VNwalking · Dec 12, 2020

Capping off this thread by posting a link to a wonderful interactive map that @mspath has very kindly constructed. Once it's open, you can click on any pointer to see the name of the church.

Pre-Romanesque via Caminos - Google My Maps

Pre-Romanesque via Caminos

www.google.com

As an architectural historian during 5 decades in Canada, NYC, and Paris, @mspath always enjoyed discovering and comparing buildings.

And she offered us this perfect quote:
"We unite all things by perceiving the law which pervades them; by perceiving the superficial differences and the profound resemblances."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

SabsP · Dec 12, 2020

Thank you @mspath for your generosity.
As always you show us the true pilgrim's spirit!

gsilver · Dec 12, 2020

gns said:
Another interesting example is San Pedro De Nave which is on the Camino Portugues de la Via de la Plata outside El Campillo. It is just under 30km walk from Zamora

I can't find my photos of the place but here is the Wikipedia page

San Pedro de la Nave - Wikipedia

Have lots of pictures of San Pedro de la Nave taken 2014 on my way from Zamora to Braganca. An amazing building with an amazing story.

jungleboy · Dec 12, 2020

VNwalking said:
Capping off this thread by posting a link to a wonderful interactive map that @mspath has very kindly constructed. Once it's open, you can click on any pointer to see the name of the church.

It seems you need to request access. I've done so, so hopefully I'll be able to see the map soon!

VNwalking · Dec 12, 2020

@jungleboy, I've edited the post; please try again to see if it works.

Rick of Rick and Peg · Dec 12, 2020

VNwalking said:
@jungleboy, I've edited the post; please try again to see if it works.

It works for me now where it didn't at first.

Kathor1 · Dec 12, 2020

gsilver said:
Have lots of pictures of San Pedro de la Nave taken 2014 on my way from Zamora to Braganca.

I absolutely love the eagle/angel/Siren figure in the first photo.

But it this really from San Pedro de la Nave? The style looks so different, ie full-blown Romanesque and not Visigothic like all the other sculptures in San Pedro, and I couldn't detect it in any of the photos that turned up in a quick Google Images search for San Pedro. Just curious.

gsilver · Dec 14, 2020

Kathar1na said:
I absolutely love the eagle/angel/Siren figure in the first photo.

But it this really from San Pedro de la Nave? The style looks so different, ie full-blown Romanesque and not Visigothic like all the other sculptures in San Pedro, and I couldn't detect it in any of the photos that turned up in a quick Google Images search for San Pedro. Just curious.

You are a sleuth! You are right - visited Santiago de los Caballeros and San Pedro de la Nave the same day. Here are all the photos I took of the later one.

peregrina2000 · Jan 15, 2021

My inbox had an article about San Juan de Baños, another Visigothic church. Near Palencia, but not on any camino.

San Juan de Baños, the great Visigothic temple of northern Spain | Fascinating Spain

Exceptionally preserved, San Juan de Baños, in Baños de Cerrato, is one of the most important Visigothic temples in the country.

fascinatingspain.com

Info about hours, visits here.

The linked article describes it as the oldest standing church in Spain.

Though I am not a map whiz, it looks to me like the two camino points that are closest are Frómista on the Francés (44 km on a superhighway, 46 km walking on secondary roads) and
Valladolid on/close to the Madrid (41 km).

Martyduc · Jan 16, 2021

peregrina2000 said:
My inbox had an article about San Juan de Baños, another Visigothic church. Near Palencia, but not on any camino.

San Juan de Baños, the great Visigothic temple of northern Spain | Fascinating Spain

Exceptionally preserved, San Juan de Baños, in Baños de Cerrato, is one of the most important Visigothic temples in the country.

fascinatingspain.com

Info about hours, visits here.

The linked article describes it as the oldest standing church in Spain.

Though I am not a map whiz, it looks to me like the two camino points that are closest are Frómista on the Francés (44 km on a superhighway, 46 km walking on secondary roads) and
Valladolid on/close to the Madrid (41 km).

Firstly, thank you for all that you do for us all
And I had this,, from somewhere,, A Camino starting from Palencia,, not to Santiago though, but easy to continue onto the Norte!! I have the full pdf guide in spanish on file!

VNwalking · Jan 16, 2021

Ths looks SO special.
Gracias, amiga.

Martyduc said:
A Camino starting from Palencia,, not to Santiago though, but easy to continue onto the Norte

Or you could take a left onto the Olvidado about halfway at CdP....

Martyduc · Jan 16, 2021

VNwalking said:
Ths looks SO special.
Gracias, amiga.

Or you could take a left onto the Olvidado about halfway at CdP....

And could we also turn left onto the Camino Asturias!!

VNwalking · Jan 16, 2021

Martyduc said:
And could we also turn left onto the Camino Asturias!!

Indeed. At the same place.

peregrina2000 · Jan 16, 2021

Martyduc said:
A Camino starting from Palencia,, not to Santiago though, but easy to continue onto the Norte!!

This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.

Martyduc · Jan 16, 2021

peregrina2000 said:
This is the Camino Lebañiego-Castellano, which heads north from Palencia to the monastery at Santo Toribio. There are a few threads on this route, easy to find by searching “lebañiego castellano.” All the threads dealing with this route are for the moment in the Vadiniense section, just because it also goes from thee monastery to th Francés at Mansilla de las Mulas.

A few forum members have walked it. It intersects with the Olvidado in Cervera de Pisuerga, which is where I saw signs and got some information.

If there’s enough interest, we could make a separate sub-forum. And @Martyduc, if you can post the pdf file that would be great. There is a broken link in one of the threads that was supposed to take us to the guide on Palencia’s official website, and I can‘t find it anywhere else now.

Hi,, I have tried here to post that pdf,, but it keeps saying the file is too large,, so I don't know how!! Any suggestions?

peregrina2000 · Jan 16, 2021

Martyduc said:
Hi,, I have tried here to post that pdf,, but it keeps saying the file is too large,, so I don't know how!! Any suggestions?

Hum. Can you try posting it in the resources? I think there is a section for guides in print, and I would put it in the Vadiniense subforum. If that doesn’t work, I can ask Ivar. Thank you so much, that would be great.

Martyduc · Jan 17, 2021

peregrina2000 said:
Hum. Can you try posting it in the resources? I think there is a section for guides in print, and I would put it in the Vadiniense subforum. If that doesn’t work, I can ask Ivar. Thank you so much, that would be great.

Hi,, think I have got it into Resources in the Vadinense subforum!! I hope so!

Rick of Rick and Peg · Jan 17, 2021

Martyduc said:
Hi,, think I have got it into Resources in the Vadinense subforum!! I hope so!

Thank you. I was able to download it through this forum webpage: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/resources/camino-lebaniego-from-palencia.781/history

David Tallan · Jan 29, 2021

Raggy said:
I have read that there was a prohibition on building or extending churches. Furthermore, in culture (diet, dress, language etc.), I read that the Christians adopted the culture of the islamic rulers of the territory (hence the modern term "Mozarabe"- arabized) ... so perhaps there isn't a Mozarabic architecture to discover? Happy for someone to correct me on this speculation.

FWIW, today in another thread I posted a couple of photos of San Miguel de la Escalada just off the Camino near Mansilla de las Mulas. Gitlitz and Davidson consider it Mozarabic architecture. So does my Michelin Green Guide for Spain. It was built by monks who had been expelled from Cordoba. So, although it was built in Christian Spain, the architects were Christians from Islamic Iberia. It seems somewhat different from the Mudejar churches not far away in Sahagun.

Deleted member 73526 · Jan 29, 2021

David Tallan said:
FWIW, today in another thread I posted a couple of photos of San Miguel de la Escalada just off the Camino near Mansilla de las Mulas. Gitlitz and Davidson consider it Mozarabic architecture. So does my Michelin Green Guide for Spain. It was built by monks who had been expelled from Cordoba. So, although it was built in Christian Spain, the architects were Christians from Islamic Iberia. It seems somewhat different from the Mudejar churches not far away in Sahagun.

Yes - "Mozarabic" is also used to describe the church in Tabara, which was built by Christians who emigrated (fled, really) from the muslim controlled south. In my post, I should have said "Perhaps there aren't churches built by mozarabes in the muslim areas," or something.

Rick of Rick and Peg · Dec 13, 2021

It has now been almost a year since the last post but this thread has not been forgotten. I've been watching a couple of episodes on YouTube of Timeline's series "An Age of Light", a different take on what is called the Dark Ages. In the episode entitled "Why Are the Barbarians so Misunderstood?" the presentation ends with the Visigoths in Spain, specifically with a church already mentioned in this thread and that Wikipedia titles as Church of San Juan Bautista, Baños de Cerrato. See also post #111 above by @peregrina2000.

Here is the section of the YouTube video that starts 52 minutes, 30 seconds in. Clicking the arrow gets you an embedded view, clicking the video's title should bring to to YouTube where you can use all its features like casting to a TV.

peregrina2000 · Dec 14, 2021

Thanks so much for the link, @Rick. I only watched the part about Spain but will take a look at the rest later. I was happy to have had a mystery cleared up for me. I had always wondered how those visigothic crowns with the jewels dangling fit comfortably on a royal’s head. The video explained that they were not worn, but rather hung in churches above the altar. The Museo Arqueólogico in Madrid has a gob-smacking display of some of these beauties. (And btw, if you haven’t been to this museum since its astonishing renovation/remodeling, do not miss it the next time you are in Madrid. It is an absolutely amazing place — for the Roman, Visigothic and Moorish eras ).

VNwalking · Dec 14, 2021

peregrina2000 said:
The Museo Arqueólogico in Madrid has a gob-smacking display of some of these beauties.

Can you imagine how these would catch the light? Wow.

Thanks, Rick! Great link.
Is anyone's looking for a place to stay after a camino in this general area, I stumbled on this very nice webpage:

To visit - Finca El Cercado

What to visit Castille and Leon offers an amazing array of cultural destinations, and specifically Palencia, with its Gothic Cathedral known as “The Unknown Beauty”. It is also an excellent point of departure to explore the region’s extraordinary Historical and Artistic Heritage: from the Camino...

www.fincaelcercado.com

The map they made (embedded in that page) is a good resource.

Lots of history in easy range of a car, and a place (perhaps) to bring a non-walking spouse who is nevertheless interested in history.

dick bird · Dec 16, 2021

I am currently reading an excellent book I discovered lurking on the shelves of our local library 'Art of the Dark Ages', Backes and Dölling, published Abrams, New York, 1969. The cover blurb states "No period in history has been so misnamed ........ these five centuries gave birth to some of the most brilliant and original art of all time".

I suspect our view of the post-classical period in European history is coloured by two things: firstly the Renaissance fashion for Greek and Roman architecture, but secondly, casting the Roman empire as a noble enterprise that collapsed because it became weak and decadent somehow legitimised the colonial empires of nations such as Britain and France.

Sorry, not very camino related, except that the camino is a process of discovery and enlightenment, and the practice of pilgrimage grew out of a period of great creation and innovation, physical evidence of which can often be seen, in fact, on any of the camino routes if you know it is there. So thanks to all for pointing them out.

VNwalking · Dec 16, 2021

dick bird said:
Sorry, not very camino related

Actually, very Camino-related, because how we perceive what we encounter there is informed by what we think we know - based on a patchy education about this whole time period.

I came to the Camino thinking Romanesque and pre-Romanesque forms were nascent and imperfect - on an undeniable trajectory of 'improvement,' to becoming better and more sophistcated. Flying buttresses! Soaring Gothic arches and rose windows! That was where it was at, as far as I knew.

But experiential reality on the Camino has changed my view entirely. All those ill-informed ideas can't hold up in the face of places like Sta Maria de Lara or Diamondi - or for that matter the interior of the Cathedral in Santiago, and the portals graced by Maestro Mateo's masterpiece carvings.

Not to dismiss later forms, but not to denegrate the earlier ones as being somehow 'less than,' unripe and immature.

Rick of Rick and Peg · Sep 7, 2022

In another thread I saw today @VNwalking posted the following link. I figured that this thread could use the link too. V said something to the effect that you have to be careful if you view this at work as it could really eat up a lot of your time.

Arte prerrománico

Arte prerrománico en el ámbito geográfico del condado de Castilla

www.condadodecastilla.es

Rick of Rick and Peg · Jun 25, 2024

I sought out a video on Wamba today and I figure I may as well add it here. There is no narration and so you can shut off the background music if you wish.

SYates · 2025-01-04T16:53:19+0100

I thought it would be great if we share music that reminds us of the Camino, ideally with a sentence about why it matters to you. This song, apart of the beautiful hunting voice that let's me...

VNwalking · 2025-01-04T14:27:00+0100

Over the New Year holiday I listened to this very nicely done podcast from the BBC about medieval pilgrimage. It was amusing to realize how completely familiar the medieval debates around...

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