Wokabaut_Meri
somewhere along the Way
- Time of past OR future Camino
- Camino Francés 2015
Pilgrims Way 2018
Via Francigena #1 Canterbury-Dover 2018
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Believe it or not... walking into Virgen Del Camino on a perfectly good footpath we watched in horror as a young pilgrim following her phone directions crossed a barrier onto the main road.Just goes to show that reliance on a GPS rather than the brain and eyes God gave us can lead to a bad outcome. These machines cannot think, so it helps to have map-reading ability and outdoor skills in addition to these admittedly powerful electronic tools, so that a manual override is possible.
(The article that @Albertagirl turned us onto shows the danger of turning off our cognitive function when using GPS. It's conclusion bears repeating here;
"Take yourself off autopilot. Become aware of your environment. Make a habit of skepticism, including skepticism toward your own assumptions and gut feelings.")
Mmm... Yes I hear what you say, but...no! I don't think I am being unkind by thinking they were stupid by starting off at 4pm. for what was (is) by all standards a reasonably demanding walk. In mountains. And totally unprepared.I am saddened to read such unkind and disparaging remarks on this thread. I imagine if the lost pilgrims read this page, they may feel even worse. And if future pilgrims read this commentary, they may think this a most judgmental group and be scared of making a mistake or taking a risk, lest provoking the negative judgments of others. Please, be kind - what do the sacred lessons of the Camino amount to, if we are do not practice decency, kindness and compassion with our fellow travelers on the path?
The kind way would be to say that it was a stupid mistake. Even smart people make stupid mistakes.Mmm... Yes I hear what you say, but...no! I don't think I am being unkind by thinking they were stupid
Thank you for your good nature on this. After posting I went to the kitchen and on the way realized that I may have been too blunt and unkind myself. Another stupid mistake.Ok, point taken.
I'll have to walk (at least) one more camino to make up for my sins....
Roland blew a horn for help but it didn't do him much good.Also include advice on what to do IF you get lost.
As far as I can see it, the general rule for charging for the rescue is a behavior showing blatant negligence or recklessness. The application seems to be casuistic and quite subjective. Some examples given are not following signposts or official warnings, lack of proper equipment, unnecesary call for help. The topic has been widely discussed in Spain, and each autonomous government (as Navarra, León, etc.) seems to apply its own criteria.I am aware of the notice by the Navarra Provincial Govt about search fees (if you get lost during the winter on Napoleon Trail) but surely if you get lost during the summer your life should not depend upon being able to pay a E5000 fine/fee. (Please be kind when you reply!!)
a guidebook to life on earth.Maybe what is needed is...
... Maybe what is needed is some practical advice/notices at the Pilgrim Office in St Jean (please bear with me - I have not been to St Jean (next May) so this maybe a surperfluous post) stating how long it will take to walk to: Orrison; Valcarlos; Roncesvalles and maybe even the weather forecast for the day to next day. Also include advice on what to do IF you get lost. ...
The moderators seem to be giving us kiddies a fair bit of space to see how we work our Way out of this oneI am saddened to read such unkind and disparaging remarks on this thread. I imagine if the lost pilgrims read this page, they may feel even worse. And if future pilgrims read this commentary, they may think this a most judgmental group and be scared of making a mistake or taking a risk, lest provoking the negative judgments of others. Please, be kind - what do the sacred lessons of the Camino amount to, if we are do not practice decency, kindness and compassion with our fellow travelers on the path?
If I remember rightly, the distances between each stretch - and how long it is going to take to walk them - are also posted above the bar at OrrissonMaybe what is needed is some practical advice/notices (...)stating how long it will take to walk to: Orrison; Valcarlos; Roncesvalles and maybe even the weather forecast for the day to next day.
Yes by pointing the hour hand of your watch at the sun (if visible) and bisecting the angle between that and 12 on your watch you find South.... ( I'm living in Guildford Surrey where this couple came from.... and over 50 too....I wonder if I know them...)There was a sun in the sky ... very hard to not find your way if you get lost .. but it has given us great fun and I am glad that they are safe ... though, not quite certain what 'safe' really means to these two Brits.
Yes by pointing the hour hand of your watch at the sun (if visible) and bisecting the angle between that and 12 on your watch you find South.... ( I'm living in Guildford Surrey where this couple came from.... and over 50 too....I wonder if I know them...)
Roland blew a horn for help but it didn't do him much good.
And noting that @BonitaHolland's method works in the northern hemisphere and where the solar time and social time are closely aligned, should one one an adjustment and bisect the angle between the hour before current time to account for the fact Spain (and Portugal) are so much further west. After all, one wants this to be accurate, surely!@Bonita Holland
Just the words "bisecting the angle" make me feel giddy. I cannot do anything resembling geometry. This past June I finally quit taking a compass on my wilderness hikes, admitting to myself that my inability to consistently remember whether I should add or subtract the 29 degrees of declination would almost certainly get me walking 58 degrees off from where I should be going.
@dougfitzAnd noting that @BonitaHolland's method works in the northern hemisphere and where the solar time and social time are closely aligned, should one one an adjustment and bisect the angle between the hour before current time to account for the fact Spain (and Portugal) are so much further west. After all, one wants this to be accurate, surely!
Did any of you ever actually use the analogue wrist watch method or the stick in the ground and its shadow method to find out where to go? I never did. And I don't trust the moss method. Moss seems to grow east, south, north and west.
Did any of you ever actually use the analogue wrist watch method or the stick in the ground and its shadow method to find out where to go? I never did. And I don't trust the moss method. Moss seems to grow east, south, north and west.
This past June I finally quit taking a compass on my wilderness hikes, admitting to myself that my inability to consistently remember whether I should add or subtract the 29 degrees of declination would almost certainly get me walking 58 degrees off from where I should be going.
I think your attempt to educate is a very good thing. Yet it takes follow up by physically doing. So for the reader please try to take an orientation class.Albertagirl and moderators, I thought of sending this as a private message but it may be of interest to others. I'll not post anymore in this thread on compasses. PM me if you think it will be helpful. But I don't want Albertagirl getting lost in the wilderness because she doesn't take a compass.
A compass with declination adjustment takes care of the problem of adding or subtracting the declination. With a small screwdriver attached to the compass lanyard you adjust a screw at the bezel at the start of your hike. This mechanically changes the direction of the arrow outline that the magnetic needle has to line up with. So if you want to go north you lineup the pointer to 360 degrees and then move the compass until the needle is within the outline. The outline now points to magnetic north but the direction of travel arrow points true north. With the declination adjustment it is as easy to do map to ground as ground to map.
I used a Silva Ranger model compass decades ago in a US Forest Service job. It had the declination adjustment feature and, although handheld, was used to survey property lines with an accuracy of 1 in 40 (walk a half mile and be in sight of the corner marker nailed to a tree; the property line got adjusted later). I picked up a Ranger for my own use later. Newer models of the Ranger are lighter (plastic bezels) and have map scales, rulers and map magnifiers on the base. Add some reflective tape to the outside of the cover.
The attached photo shows my compass. You may be able to see the adjustment screw at the NE mark on the bezel (it is elsewhere now.) With the adjustment screw I've set the black outline arrow for a declination of 29 degrees where true north is west of magnetic north (like in Alberta. [Edit: I'm just taking your word for this.]) I've set the bezel to 360 degrees because I want to travel northwards to the geographical pole, not the magnetic pole. The mirror is set at about a 45 degree angle to reflect the compass and base. The mirror helps with accuracy. You sight through the notch when the line on the mirror lines up with markings on the compass base (I'm a little off in the photo, although the line goes through the little yellow arrow where the bezel says "N" the line should also be going though the yellow marker to the top of the reversed "S".)
Anything more about this on the forum would be too off topic. Check with someone from an orienteering club, scouting group, park or forest service ranger or, if you get lucky, a knowledgeable sales clerk. There are videos on Youtube too of course but I didn't have time to sit through them to ensure that they showed how to use declination adjustment in addition to the older kinds.
Google search with something like: Silva Ranger CL declination adjustment
Also, compasses used in the northern hemisphere don't work well in the southern hemisphere and vice versa.
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Hats off to 'em! And congratulations are also in order. Nevertheless, a little research or a decent guide book would have probably saved them a lot of grief and the rescue teams a lot of costs.They turn out kind of awesome... they finished the Camino
Katie, I'm sorry to say this, but there is no reason at all to take a risk on the Camino. People/volunteers, local organisations work hard to find safe paths and mark them so that the Camino can be done safely, if one opts to listen to advice given (in this case, do not leave at 4pm) and follows arrows.And if future pilgrims read this commentary, they may think this a most judgmental group and be scared of making a mistake or taking a risk, lest provoking the negative judgments of others.
Throwing stones is never a good idea, since we all live in glass houses.As sure as the sun shines we will see others get lost. Hopefully their stories will be as good. But it is a good example of why we must try to stay positive.
I think you are over-analyzing this. I suspect that the reference to a 'tourist office where they had collected their ‘pilgrim passport’ ' is not the same as a reference to the official Tourist Office, but to the Pilgrim Office.Something else puzzles me: the tourism office gives credeciales ans advises people on the Camino in SJPP? The tourism office advises on how much weight to carry? Why not go to the Pilgrim's Office, the pros on all things Camino? Perhaps all things Camino should be left to the volunteers of the PO, as I can't imagine they would have sent a couple who gave the impression they would struggle on a remote, practically unbeatten path.
Even if you give people a guide, give them a class for 4 hours on the camino & take them to the arrows. Even then you still will have people get lost. Just too many options for folks to get started in the wrong direction. But the good part is the vast majority do not have this happenSomething else puzzles me: the tourism office gives credeciales ans advises people on the Camino in SJPP? The tourism office advises on how much weight to carry? Why not go to the Pilgrim's Office, the pros on all things Camino? Perhaps all things Camino should be left to the volunteers of the PO, as I can't imagine they would have sent a couple who gave the impression they would struggle on a remote, practically unbeatten path.
Please, please, please, invest 20$/€ and purchase a tried and true guide before embarking on any Camino. Do some research.
Yes, probably--a reporter would not likely know the difference--and is it not only the Pilgrim Office that issues Credencials? (Just asking as I don't know).I suspect that the reference to a 'tourist office where they had collected their ‘pilgrim passport’ ' is not the same as a reference to the official Tourist Office, but to the Pilgrim Office.
People are people. All of us.Even if you give people a guide, give them a class for 4 hours on the camino & take them to the arrows. Even then you still will have people get lost.
Yes, probably--a reporter would not likely know the difference--and is it not only the Pilgrim Office that issues Credencials? (Just asking as I don't know).
It's quite a remarkable feat to have made it to Santiago after all that.
)[/QUOTE
Viranani, before posting I gooled to learn a bit about the tourism office and you can actually order a credencial for it, so if they mail them I assume they also give the, to people in person, as does the tourism info kiosk in Oviedo for example.
And you're correct, a "journalist" may not know the difference, especially one who works for an expat publication.
Good for them for making it to Santiago with the blisters she had. Would have taken much smaller blisters than those for me to hop on the train like they did. No blame here!
Thanks @Anemone del Camino, good to know (about the Credencial).
And @Anniesantiago, please read the article. They left not at 4PM, but in the morning--having checked in and receiving perhaps confusing information.
Having walked that way, I know there are paths that short-cut the road--they may have intended to take one of these.
From the expat publication:
"within hours of setting off on Saturday morning along the well-trodden path marked by the symbol of a scallop shell or yellow arrow, they branched off on what they believed was a less steep alternative that would take them to the same destination.
"the pilgrims reported that had left at 16:00 of Friday from Saint Jean de Pied de Port intending to sleep in Roncesvalles after completing the stage of the Camino de Santiago, but were lost."
Hmmm... this is what my translator said . . .
"the pilgrims reported that had left at 16:00 of Friday
We have two different reports, so we really don't know..
http://www.thelocal.es/20160905/lost-british-couple-camino-santiago
From the article: "For within hours of setting off on Saturday morning...
I think it is quite obvious that the tourist office explained the difference between Valcarlos and Napoleon to them and they wanted to take the Valcarlos route. They got lost and onto another track, however. I'm not defending anyone but just try to put yourself into other people's shoes. You've never seen yellow arrows before (I don't think there are that many in France anyway). You don't speak French (or Spanish). The people you communicate with don't speak your language well or not at all ... maybe someone even told you that you don't need maps or a guidebook. You can find this advice on this forum sometimes, btw.
We'll never know for sure, will we? So in all honesty and respectfully I don't think that aspect of the situation is worth further discussion.
But what is worth reflection is that we all have the same capacity to mess up--and how for ourselves to avoid the fate of this couple, or the poor fellow who sadly just died in the heat on the VDLP, or any other hapless peregrino/a who's ever gotten in over his or her neck.
Personally I think it is good this thread has gotten this much attention. Primarily it will remind people to do their research on the route they plan to take. It will also create another worry, yet some things people fear is healthy.
I met a man from Croatia that had apps that could map just about everything.You see dependency where there is curiosity.
I know that there is a GPS receiver in the iPhone and that it works without wifi or 3G. I just could not remember anymore how and where I can read my coordinates in this case. During the many updates of the iOS over the last years, quite a few settings have been changed and I've not kept up with all these changes. No need to worry about my mental and spiritual well being during walking as my iPhone is usually switched off or in airplane mode to save energy.
Katie, I'm sorry to say this, but there is no reason at all to take a risk on the Camino. People/volunteers, local organisations work hard to find safe paths and mark them so that the Camino can be done safely, if one opts to listen to advice given (in this case, do not leave at 4pm) and follows arrows.
Why would someone take a risk? To take a short cut while coming to the Camino to walk? The Caminos are long walks, that can only be completed by doing some research and planning (corrct footwear, manageable distances, etc.), being careful & taking care of oneself.
I am setting off this coming Thursday (Sept. 15) to cross the Pyrenees with the CSJ guidebook and the maps.me app to guide me. I have spent most of Tues. - Fri. this week, while the brother I was visiting was off flying float planes for 12 hours a day, trying to understand the route of the Voie d'Arles from Oloron Ste Marie to the Somport Pass. I plan on staying on the route and following whatever markers are visible. But I cannot guarantee that I shall not be "venturing off course in the Pyrenees." There are places where directions in the guidebook and the app do not clearly coincide. I shall make the best judgments that I can based on my experience and what I observe around me. I may not leave Oloron Ste Marie until around noon the first day, as I wish to check in at the cathedral and the tourist office (better maps maybe?) I am looking forward immensely to my walk. I love mountains and see the Somport Pass area and the route leading up to it as more like the mountains that I am used to. But any solitary adventure has risks. I can hardly wait.There are guides, forums, all sorts of information to help you not follow one's "commonsense". Let's hope this thread helps at least one person think twice about venturing off course, in the Pyrenees no less.
Thinking only the best for you, I assume you will take a compass & have the ability no matter the weather to stay warm. So please take a bearing using the map to the direction that leads directly thru the Pyranees. Leave that bearing in the compass. Whatever the distance is to clear the Pyranees figure out how many hours it would take you to walk & double it. I will assume you will PM me the day before you start over so I can time how long it takes you to PM again. I fully expect this to be a walk in the park for you, but sometimes neighbors get concerned.I am setting off this coming Thursday (Sept. 15) to cross the Pyrenees with the CSJ guidebook and the maps.me app to guide me. I have spent most of Tues. - Fri. this week, while the brother I was visiting was off flying float planes for 12 hours a day, trying to understand the route of the Voie d'Arles from Oloron Ste Marie to the Somport Pass. I plan on staying on the route and following whatever markers are visible. But I cannot guarantee that I shall not be "venturing off course in the Pyrenees." There are places where directions in the guidebook and the app do not clearly coincide. I shall make the best judgments that I can based on my experience and what I observe around me. I may not leave Oloron Ste Marie until around noon the first day, as I wish to check in at the cathedral and the tourist office (better maps maybe?) I am looking forward immensely to my walk. I love mountains and see the Somport Pass area and the route leading up to it as more like the mountains that I am used to. But any solitary adventure has risks. I can hardly wait.
Keith:Thinking only the best for you, I assume you will take a compass & have the ability no matter the weather to stay warm. So please take a bearing using the map to the direction that leads directly thru the Pyranees. Leave that bearing in the compass. Whatever the distance is to clear the Pyranees figure out how many hours it would take you to walk & double it. I will assume you will PM me the day before you start over so I can time how long it takes you to PM again. I fully expect this to be a walk in the park for you, but sometimes neighbors get concerned.
Keith
@Katharina@Albertagirl: Based on your chosen forum photo and what you have written about your hiking experience in Canada, I'm quite confident that you will find your way. I don't know maps.me but I understand that it is based on OpenStreetMap. Maybe you don't need any other information but I was wondering whether you know that you can consult the maps of the French National Geographic Institute (IGN) online and for free? Depending on the chosen scale, they are obviously very detailed and show hiking paths, with the Way(s) to Santiago explicitly marked, both with the name GR 653 and the blue and yellow Compostela logo. The website is in French but easy to understand and to use.
Go to http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr , click on Consultez la version simplifiée , then make sure that Cartes topographiques is checked in the range of options on the left hand side. Type Oloron into the search field (where it says "Cherchez un lieu, une addresse, une donnée") and this will take you to the area. Adjust scale by clicking on + or -. You can even print what's shown on your screen (or store it on an electronic device). Bon chemin!!!
I just tuned into this thread again and feel ashamed of my initial thoughts on these 2 pilgrims who got lostQuoted from the article in The Local es:
Last Friday they reached their destination after completing an impressive 652 km of the route on foot – not including the countless extra miles they covered while lost in the foothills of the Pyrenees.
Absolutely bl**dy marvellous!!
Regardless of their adventurous beginning, they made it!! Wow!! What an achievement.
The discussion about their rescue and the right and wrongs and payment for that - or not - is a total other discussion but I would be interested to know about the outcome. Mainly because we don't usually get follow ups to sensational stories and there is so much to be learnt from each such incident.
What really touched me was the highlighted line below:
The pair were driven to Roncesvalles where they spent a few days recovering before deciding to continue on their way to Santiago.
"At the moment we were rescued I could only think that I would never attempt to walk again but after a few days rest and meeting all the other people doing the Camino we decided that we had to continue and try to get to Santiago."
Recovering in Roncesvalles, the pilgrims that Diana and Justin met inspired them to continue their Camino. If any of us had met them there in those same circumstances, knowing of their lost wanderings and rescue, wouldn't we have done exactly the same?
"We ditched the tent and a lightened our backpacks by a lot and split the walking with am overnight train across the meseta (the flat land between Burgos and Leon),"explained Justin. "Diane’s blisters got worse but she has been an amazing trooper throughout this pilgrimage and I'm still astonished how much we achieved."
...and they adapted and learnt from their experience!
We've all done it... encouraged people to Just Do It! Hubby and I did it with our Camino compañero and paid the price.
Don't we ever! Diane and Justin have given us an opportunity to review our instructions on following the path out of SJPdP. Everyone listens to and understands directions in their own unique way. Hubby and I have had many an interesting conversation over that!
Well said! If anything we now know that there is a path leading off the Valcarlos Route that we shouldn't take - does anyone have a photo of that turnoff? We could post it with a Go Back! You are going the Wrong Way!! warning.
...and @Kathar1na, some of us are going hmmm.... that looks like an interesting alternative route to Roncesvalles!
Don't panic! I would definitely do a LOT of research first!
But I'll leave the final words to Diane and Justin themselves:
So would they do it again?
"Absolutely yes,"said Justin, while beside him Diane gave an emphatic shake of the head and pointed at her bandaged feet.
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