Train - London to Santiago

[mickcope]

Hi. - has anyone taken the train from London to Santiago - my son is scared of flying - so this looks the best option (or drive via Ferry)

From what I can see the route looks to be:

* London Paris
* Paris Madrid
* Madrid - Santiago

Thoughts welcome.
ta
MIck

 

[Tincatinker]

I’ve used Eurostar to Paris & the TGV to Bordeaux / Bayonne to walk the Frances, Norte and others.
If you want to get all the way to Santiago by train your routing is likely the most practical even if not the most fun.
Paris- Madrid opens the entire Spanish rail network so Pamplona, Burgos, Leon, Sahagun, Ourense, Oviedo and a plentiful supply of other potential Camino start points become available.
Rom2rio and themaninseat61 are friends

 

[MinaKamina]

Train (car) to Plymouth, ferry to Santander, local trains (car) to Santiago de Compostela

 

[Vacajoe]

That train route seems overly long to simply get from London to Santiago. I’ve done two legs of that (L to P, and M to S) and while lovely, you might want to consider the ferry routes instead.

 

[Corned Beef]

As @Vacajoe and others have said. Ferry to Northern Spain and then drive from there.

I've driven London-Madrid and back via Calais. This was when fuel was half the price it is now and you still need to stop over at least 1 night on top of the fuel costs.

I've also done Vigo to London via Santander. The Santander option is very restful and likely the more cost effective route. In addition you get to see the Asturias and the Picos rather than the meseta. A bonus in my view.

 

[BarbaraW]

I'm just back overland. My route was bus Santiago to Bilbao (www.alsa.es for long distance buses in Spain) night and most of day in Bilbao, evening bus to San Sebastian and overnight. San Sebastian to London by train (local train, TGV, Eurostar) It was 2 long day's travelling, which was why I built in a rest/sightseeing day. I think the ferry route would be worth exploring. You can also get a train most days (but not the day I wanted to travel) from SDC to San Sebastian, details on seat61.
If you have the time overland is a good way to come back from pilgrimage, as there's time to reflect and adjust.

 

[peregrino_tom]

Hi Mick
If your son has some time available then the FEVE's Transcantabrico line is also worth a look. There are slow trains for tourists and others that go about normal speed (but I don't think as quick as the ALSA buses that Barbara mentions above, which I really like!). When you walk the Norte you come across the FEVE frequently, so taking this option will almost certainly inspire one to go back and walk the Norte
As Tinca says, the Eurostar/TGV trains are great, and French trains in general are just so intriguing, always managing to impart something of that particular national character..
The drawback of the ferry is that Bay of Biscay weather, which has been hassling 'UK' pilgrims for about a 1000 years. A friend of mine just returned that way and it wasn't pleasant. It took her a couple of days to get back on her feet.

 

[VNwalking]

Instead of Paris - Madrid, maybe try Paris - Hendaye/Irun - Santiago.
It may be necessary to walk across the border between Hendaye and Irun, but it is not far.

 

[Introibo]

I did the London - Paris - Hendaye/Irun - Pamplona trip.

At Hendaye the train stopped, engines off, lights out. All the staff
dismounted and went over to meet someone at the station. Lots
of kissing and hugging. I was panicking a little by now. Then they all got
back on, engine started up and away we went.

The "slow" ride down to Pamplona, rather than a "quick" flight, was a
great way to start a pilgrimage

 

[Pilgrim1960]

Might want to mention to your son that given the choice of flying and driving, there is a point at which it becomes safer to fly..... That distance several years ago, was 2.4 kms. Any distance beyond 2.4 kms is safer to have been flown than driven.
Most people don't look at numbers and fears are most often irrational!!
Have a Buen Camino.

 

[VNwalking]

Any distance beyond 2.4 kms is safer to have been flown than driven.

Comparing flying and driving is very different than comparing flying and travelling by train. Train travel is far safer than both flying and driving - not to mention much better for the planet than both.

 

[chinacat]

I did the London - Paris - Hendaye/Irun - Pamplona trip.

At Hendaye the train stopped, engines off, lights out. All the staff
dismounted and went over to meet someone at the station. Lots
of kissing and hugging. I was panicking a little by now. Then they all got
back on, engine started up and away we went.

The "slow" ride down to Pamplona, rather than a "quick" flight, was a
great way to start a pilgrimage

We did this to return from Santiago.
Train from SdC to Pamplona and then your trip in reverse.
Walking from Irun to Hendaye was just like walking through any station … no problem.
Trains are so much nicer than planes

 

[Pilgrim1960]

Comparing flying and driving is very different than comparing flying and travelling by train. Train travel is far safer than both flying and driving - not to mention much better for the planet than both.

Excellent comparison. These camino people are pretty sharp and I will have to up my game!! Thanks for the comment. I was making it only to show that we often give no thought to driving 10 kms and that could be used to calibrate our anxieties. Very impressed with you comment!! You can be my friend in any conversation!!!

 

[Curly Cath]

I am in extinction rebellion (climate activist) as well as being a pilgrim so I love your question!

For any others watching the thread for travelling overland-

I am hoping to go soon if well enough. The train is out of my price bracket. And ferries are also quite expensive. Cheapest non flight option for me is flix bus Manchester to London, fix bus to vitoria gasteiz (change in paris, same bus station), then alsa bus to burgos, where I will start. I am staying over at a friend's in London and will ideally break the journey in Paris on return.

If flying I wouldn't need to pay check my bag into the hold, but that restricts what I can take.

This way on the bus I can take a larger suncream, walking poles, penknife and scissors to cut my tape for my feet

Currently in the UK there are frequent and serious issues with flight cancellations and airport chaos so I am HOPING this is easier. I don't fear flying but I found Manchester airport very stressful in the past. Post pandemic its insane, it's got far too many passengers and flights to handle and needs to cut down

But these days I try not to fly anyway xx

 

[ginniek]

Just an FYI, if you do get to Madrid and take a train from there to many cities, you will likely have the opportunity to use RENFE's new service--AVE. It's faster than France's TGV and the ride is more stable and comfortable than the TGV, because of the improvements in technology since TGV (which is 30+ years).

 

[Tincatinker]

This way on the bus I can take a larger suncream, walking poles, penknife and scissors to cut my tape for my feet

Beware of "hand luggage" restrictions through the Tunnel. There are some big bins, full of "it's ok I can take this on the bus" items.

You'll be aware that a direct flight Manchester to Madrid / Bilbao / Santander and a bus to Burgos will have a net carbon impact no greater and possibly less than using road transport all the way. While the aviation industry is a massive contributor individual flights aren't.

There is no carbon neutral way of leaving your home parish. Thats why medieval pilgrims needed their Bishops permission to go

 

[AlexB]

Just finishing it now, it’s London Paris Paris Hendaye , then cross the border Irun to Vitoria , Vitoria to Santiago

 

[mickcope]

I’ve used Eurostar to Paris & the TGV to Bordeaux / Bayonne to walk the Frances, Norte and others.
If you want to get all the way to Santiago by train your routing is likely the most practical even if not the most fun.
Paris- Madrid opens the entire Spanish rail network so Pamplona, Burgos, Leon, Sahagun, Ourense, Oviedo and a plentiful supply of other potential Camino start points become available.
Rom2rio and themaninseat66 are friends

thanks a lot

mick

 

[Curly Cath]

Beware of "hand luggage" restrictions through the Tunnel. There are some big bins, full of "it's ok I can take this on the bus" items.

You'll be aware that a direct flight Manchester to Madrid / Bilbao / Santander and a bus to Burgos will have a net carbon impact no greater and possibly less than using road transport all the way. While the aviation industry is a massive contributor individual flights aren't.

There is no carbon neutral way of leaving your home parish. Thats why medieval pilgrims needed their Bishops permission to go

No, that's not correct. Measured in grams of CO2 per passenger kilometre, carbon footprint of the bus trip is about 40% of the short haul flight. Look up visual carbon footprint calculators for the stats. Short haul flights are the worst offenders on this

It's not a perfect solution but a reduction of 60% of my carbon footprint is better than 0. Train as I said is lots better, but prohibitively expensive for me.

And if we want to get the world we want to see its important to make choices about that - and not fly. We've done successful campaigning in my city to get the buses taken back under local authority control and we're slowly electrifying them.

It's very slow but activism, campaigning for active and green and greener travel is working

I think telling people it doesn't make a difference individual flights don't matter is irresponsible

 

[igailfh]

No, that's not correct. Measured in grams of CO2 per passenger kilometre, carbon footprint of the bus trip is about 40% of the short haul flight. Look up visual carbon footprint calculators for the stats. Short haul flights are the worst offenders on this

It's not a perfect solution but a reduction of 60% of my carbon footprint is better than 0. Train as I said is lots better, but prohibitively expensive for me.

And if we want to get the world we want to see its important to make choices about that - and not fly. We've done successful campaigning in my city to get the buses taken back under local authority control and we're slowly electrifying them.

It's very slow but activism, campaigning for active and green and greener travel is working

I think telling people it doesn't make a difference individual flights don't matter is irresponsible

Haha, not flying is a luxury you can afford on your side of the world. There are no trains between the Antipides & the rest of the world. Planes or those expensive cruise ships are Antipodeans only options. So you can sit back feeling good about your green choices because you have choices. Lol!

 

[Corned Beef]

Haha, not flying is a luxury you can afford on your side of the world. There are no trains between the Antipides & the rest of the world. Planes or those expensive cruise ships are Antipodeans only options. So you can sit back feeling good about your green choices because you have choices. Lol!

Sometimes forget the world has shrunk to a page on a computer. Good to be reminded so we can recalibrate our thinking.

"Saving the world" is a lot more complex than we think (or hope).

 

[Tincatinker]

No, that's not correct. Measured in grams of CO2 per passenger kilometre, carbon footprint of the bus trip is about 40% of the short haul flight. Look up visual carbon footprint calculators for the stats. Short haul flights are the worst offenders on this

Hmm, its no wonder we call it the climate change debate.


The carbon, and environmental, costs of road / airport construction and maintenance seem to excluded. Nevertheless
1874 km (road) x 105gm/km = 196,770 gm/CO2
1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174,564 gm/CO2

 

[Curly Cath]

Hmm, its no wonder we call it the climate change debate.
View attachment 126848

The carbon, and environmental, costs of road / airport construction and maintenance seem to excluded. Nevertheless
1874 km (road) x 105gm/km = 196,770 gm/CO2
1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174,564 gm/CO2

We don't call it the 'climate change debate' any more. We call it climate science denial.

The graph below from the BBC shows clearly that flights are most damaging. The IPCC reports show that its stopping flying that's the most immediate thing we need to do. Environmental writers like George Monbiot and professors like Kevin Anderson are all saying the same thing. Stop or reduce flights.

I am studying an MSc in environmental sustainability.

Just to be clear: I am not trying to flight shame ppl travelling from further away. Or indeed shame anyone. Just provide suggestions on alternative choices.

The difference in price is staggering between flights (4.99 one way) and trains (can't find under 300 quid one way) so obviously there's less choice for those of us who are experiencing poverty. That's how come I looked into buses and shared that on here. I would much prefer to take the train it's way better for the environment and I love trains. But for people who are trying to avoid flights for environmental reasons and can't afford the train fares, bus is a less worse option than flights

This thread started with questions about the train from the UK to Spain and I thought it was a useful discussion although it has got somewhat derailed by climate science denialism

Climate change: Should you fly, drive or take the train?​

 

[Kathor1]

This is a bit of an absurd discussion, and, sorry, but to say I can't "afford" to take the train so I am going to take the bus ... and what people label as "luxury" in this context ... mind boggling. Sorry, but the question one ought to ask: Do I really need to travel and do I need to travel so far? And the honest answer in most cases would be: NO. Leisure travel is the luxury, not the mode of transport for leisure travel. And most obviously: the more people travel for leisure and the farther they travel for leisure the worse for the use of non-replaceable resources and of the lasting effect of burning them.

Short-haul flights have a higher CO2 footprint per passenger and km than medium and long distance flights, due to the proportionally higher fuel consumption at start and landing. There are efforts to ban them, not very successfully so far. France has made a first step: Domestic flights are now no longer allowed when an alternative of a train or bus connection of two and a half hours or less exists for the same distance.

There are thousands of "calculators". Just for amusement, as I saw this on the BBC website, below is one that covers London to Madrid. Note: As to CO2 emissions alone, bus is worse than long-haul flight according to these results but not coach???

 

[Kathor1]

We don't call it the 'climate change debate' any more. We call it climate science denial.

Climate science denial debate (sorry but it is this sort of language that puts off people and that includes those who have a scientific background). Funny that we copy-pasted the same BBC screenshot and at the same time. My feeling is that this thread is hurtling for closure if we continue down this lane. So back to the initial question.

I, too, have looked into taking a long train journey to Santiago, similar to London-Santiago, instead of a flight of a couple of hours, and I have come to the conclusion that it would be best to travel over two days with a night in an hotel somewhere half-way. Just out of curiosity, someone mentioned a train from France to Pamplona - I could not find any current train connections that go beyond Irun/Hendaye. I do not think that there are any passenger trains any longer that would do this - only freight trains nowadays (France-Spain gauge issue) or high speed trains on the line from France to Barcelona.

BTW, note the "Trains can differ too" section in the screenshot. The high speed train from Paris to Bordeaux (about 500 km) plus the added short distance from Bordeaux to Bayonne/Biarritz versus the flight from Paris Charles de Gaulle or Paris Orly to Biarritz - that is perhaps an option worth to be 'promoted' a bit more on the forum ... ?

 

[Kathor1]

And since "train is not train" from an environment-friendly point of view, and for those planning their next train journey to or from a Camino in Spain, here is an extract from the High Speed Railroad Map of Europe (source: Wikipedia). Note the top operating speeds possible in France and Spain (assuming that high speed is indeed better in this context)! Happy planning!

BTW, and this surprised me a little at first: If you consider only the time spent on trains and not the time spent on waiting for connections, Paris - Barcelona - Santiago takes a little less time than Paris - Irun - Santiago.

And one last thing: I've travelled through the Bay of Biscay. It lived up to what it is famous for: Stormy weather. Passengers, myself included, felt it on a pretty large ship. Some coped better than others.

(Click to enlarge)

 

[peregrino_tom]

Just finishing it now, it’s London Paris Paris Hendaye , then cross the border Irun to Vitoria , Vitoria to Santiago

Alex
so via the Basque capital then. Interesting. No-one came up with that one. How long has your whole journey taken please? thanks, tom

 

[Kathor1]

so via the Basque capital then. Interesting. No-one came up with that one

But there is no meaningful way to travel from Hendaye to Santiago than indeed going through Vitoria-Gasteiz when your aim is to travel by train within a reasonable timeframe. Unless you want to go on other and very slow trains on purpose. I did not understand why people mentioned Pamplona in this context, it is out of the way ... BTW, when planning long-distance train trips, it is often helpful to look at a railway network map and not just rely only on what a ticket booking tool suggests.

Excellent and up to date interactive map on the Adif website. Adif is the Spanish state-owned railway infrastructure manager:

https://www.adif.es/static-data/mapa/index.html

Here is an extract for the Irun-Burgos area. These are all railway lines - consult the legend on the adif.es website. Colours differ according to gauge width, electrification, maximum speed, double or single track, and so on:

(Click to enlarge)

 

[NorthernLight]

I was once upon a time in Santander, and decided to head to England. The ferry was going to be a crazy price, so I hopped on a bus to Irun, walked across the border, caught a train to Paris, then another to Le Havre where I caught the overnight ferry to Portsmouth. Even with last minute tickets, the cost was cheaper than that ferry from Santander.

I tend to fool around with booking sites and find cheaper routings. Sometimes it’s the route and sometimes it’s the slower train or the time of the day. Since I’m rarely in a rush, it works for me.

Re the carbon footprint discussion, did we not hear numerous times about how much clearer our skies were within a few days after covid restrictions shut down most flights…

 

[Molly Cassidy]

This is a bit of an absurd discussion, and, sorry, but to say I can't "afford" to take the train so I am going to take the bus ... and what people label as "luxury" in this context ... mind boggling. Sorry, but the question one ought to ask: Do I really need to travel and do I need to travel so far? And the honest answer in most cases would be: NO. Leisure travel is the luxury, not the mode of transport for leisure travel. And most obviously: the more people travel for leisure and the farther they travel for leisure the worse for the use of non-replaceable resources and of the lasting effect of burning them.

Short-haul flights have a higher CO2 footprint per passenger and km than medium and long distance flights, due to the proportionally higher fuel consumption at start and landing. There are efforts to ban them, not very successfully so far. France has made a first step: Domestic flights are now no longer allowed when an alternative of a train or bus connection of two and a half hours or less exists for the same distance.

There are thousands of "calculators". Just for amusement, as I saw this on the BBC website, below is one that covers London to Madrid. Note: As to CO2 emissions alone, bus is worse than long-haul flight according to these results but not coach???

View attachment 126850

Yes, that particular calculator is very odd.

 

[SabsP]

I am hoping to go soon if well enough. The train is out of my price bracket. And ferries are also quite expensive. Cheapest non flight option for me is flix bus Manchester to London, fix bus to vitoria gasteiz (change in paris, same bus station), then alsa bus to burgos, where I will start. I am staying over at a friend's in London and will ideally break the journey in Paris on return.

Flixbus.

Thinking abut the climate is one thing but using this company that has serious labourissues is far from perfect either.
Overworked and underpaid chauffeurs.

Those low prices have an ethical impact too.

 

[Kathor1]

that particular calculator is very odd.

I found the answer to my own question in the meantime: these standard CO2 emission figures are average figures per passenger and per kilometre travelled, and they are based on average occupancy. Average occupancy on long distance coaches is higher than average occupancy on city buses, hence I guess coaches are on a better position in the list than buses. It is all not so simple ... the French trains from Paris to Biarritz are all fully booked today on the start of this long Whitsun weekend. Should we rejoice?

 

[Tincatinker]

I obviously should have expanded a little on my calculation above. As an Auditor I should always ensure that my message will be easily understood by its recipients.

The potential journey was Manchester UK to Burgos Spain. Data source UK Department Business Energy & Industrial Strategy. I've also factored in travel to the airport & on to Burgos.

So, Travel by Road (Bus) from Manchester to London, London to Dover, Calais to Paris, Paris to Vittoria, Vittoria to Burgos = 1874 km travel (+/-1%) at a cost of 105gm/km = Total Carbon Cost 196.77 Kg/CO2

Flight Manchester Airport to Bilbao 1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174. 65 Kg/CO2
Manchester to Manchester airport (Bus) 23km x 105gm/km = 2.42 Kg/CO2
Bilbao to Burgos (Bus) 158km x 105 gm/km = 16.59 Kg/CO2
Total Carbon Cost 193.66 Kg/CO2

 

[MinaKamina]

I obviously should have expanded a little on my calculation above. As an Auditor I should always ensure that my message will be easily understood by its recipients.

The potential journey was Manchester UK to Burgos Spain. Data source UK Department Business Energy & Industrial Strategy. I've also factored in travel to the airport & on to Burgos.

So, Travel by Road (Bus) from Manchester to London, London to Dover, Calais to Paris, Paris to Vittoria, Vittoria to Burgos = 1874 km travel (+/-1%) at a cost of 105gm/km = Total Carbon Cost 196.77 Kg/CO2

Flight Manchester Airport to Bilbao 1119 km (air) x 156gm/km = 174. 65 Kg/CO2
Manchester to Manchester airport (Bus) 23km x 105gm/km = 2.42 Kg/CO2
Bilbao to Burgos (Bus) 158km x 105 gm/km = 16.59 Kg/CO2
Total Carbon Cost 193.66 Kg/CO2

I see you are fuelling a discussion

 

[nedspencer]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious solution - walk from Manchester to Santiago/ then back again!!!

Seriously try www.csj.co.uk - see if they can help

More lively discussion on FB page Ultreia Mancunia

 

[Curly Cath]

I have used coach for my calculations as 'bus' usually means buses in local areas with higher emissions due to their often getting stuck in stationary traffic. I used the amount given by the environmental journalist in the calculations below, which matches the amount given in the earlier BBC news page I shared, 27g per passenger kilometre for coach travel.

Kilometre total Manchester Victoria coach station to london Victoria coach station to Folkestone channel tunnel entrance, plus Calais channel tunnel exit to Paris bercy bus station to Vitoria Gasteiz bus station to Burgos bus station = 1802 km ( +/- 1%).
Grams per passenger kilometre = 27 g per passenger kilometre.

1802 x 0.027 = 48.654 kg/CO2e

Plus eurostar 6g per passenger emissions x 50.5 km (length of tunnel)

50.5 x 0.006 = 0.303 kg/CO2e

Total for trip = 48.957 kg/CO2e

So the coach / eurostar combo is approximately 49 kg/CO2e

About 28% of the emissions of your flight calculation of 174. 65 Kg/CO2

However I would have used 254 g per passenger kilometre for short haul flight, as given by BEIS figures.

That would make the Manchester to Bilbao flight 1117 km x 0.254 = 283.72 kg/CO2e

So using the BEIS figures the coach journey is about 17.5% of the emissions of a short haul flight.

Some flixbus coaches are electric, and battery operated so this would lower that figure still further.

And the variability on the day will depend on how full the coaches are because emissions are measured in grams per person per kilometre, how much time they spend in stationary traffic entering and leaving cities, other unforeseen events.

The fact is that long distance travel emits far less carbon emissions per person when we do not fly, PARTICULARLY when we do not take short haul flights. Public transport is significantly better than private, so trains are by far better in Europe, long distance coaches are also significantly better, than flying

It's really important that false information is not promoted on these threads and the idea that short haul flights are roughly equivalent to the same distance by coach is false.

Many good wishes for everyone's Caminos. I very much hope to join as long as I have enough health. I had covid very badly at the start of the pandemic and now have long covid. I'vd just had covid again then shingles as my immunity is so poor. Hence why I am living below the uk poverty line and cannot afford train tickets of 300 quid each way. If you're on the camino now, please send prayers or good wishes for strength I would really appreciate it xx

 

[Curly Cath]

Flixbus.

Thinking abut the climate is one thing but using this company that has serious labourissues is far from perfect either.
Overworked and underpaid chauffeurs.

Those low prices have an ethical impact too.

Thanks for this info, i was not aware of that info on flixbus. It won some earth awards this year so I figured it was decent.

Manchester airport is described as hell on earth, and workers keep quitting. UK rail workers are striking where I live and the union of rail and transport workers is also considering more widespread strikes. If you have a suggestion of long distance bus / coach companies that treat their workers better please let me know x

 

[Curly Cath]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious solution - walk from Manchester to Santiago/ then back again!!!

Seriously try www.csj.co.uk - see if they can help

More lively discussion on FB page Ultreia Mancunia

Hi Ned!

Yeah love that idea, but I wouldn't manage it with long covid! I have sadly gained a disability that really impacts my life since I last saw you

 

[ivar]

Closing this thread….