The trouble with quotes and translations - a soft thread

[Purky]

Last month, while walking the Pieterpad in Holland, I came upon this mural (just over the border in Germany, where the Dutch route strayed for a bit). I liked the message behind it, so I took a picture. When I was reviewing and storing my pictures on my computer this week, I saw it again. Out of curiosity, I googled it and became more and more intrigued.

The original quote is indeed apparently from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, but when I tried to locate its source, I couldn't find exactly where he would have said or written this. (If anyone knows, please let me know!) Also, the majority of articles about this sentence seem to agree that the quotes is as follows: "Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen", which is slighty different from the mural.

No big deal of course, the meaning still stands. But when I started trying to translate it into English, I found it rather difficult. Me and Google came up with a number of possibilities:
- Only where you were walking, you have really been
- You have been to a place only if you have walked there by foot
- You cannot say that you have been somewhere unless you have been there on foot
- You haven't really been somewhere unless you've been there on foot
- You've only been there if you did it on foot

I find it interesting to see that the gravity and the meaning of such a quote can shift dramatically depending on the translation, even when it is only one sentence. I suddenly realised why a friend of mine, who is a translator, keeps insisting he is not a translator but an interpreter. This whole little inquiry renewed my respect for translators and interpreters alike (like Rebekah Scott: I'm halfway into "The great westward walk" right now, and loving it!), and reminded me to be cautious when reading or writing, especially in a language not my own.

Because when just one sentence, like that of Goethe, can generate so many translations or interpretations with different emotional atmospheres, a seemingly innocent remark can spark unintentional heated discussions and cause people to drift apart, instead of finding common ground. The ending of this thread should come as no surprise. While typing, Yeats kept tugging at my sleeve. Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

 

[Tincatinker]

Hmm, nice one @Purky

My by-line came out of this:

Rura mihi et rigui placeant in vallibus amnes,
Flumina amem silvasque inglorius. O ubi campi,
Spercheusque, et virginibus bacchata Lacaenis
Taygeta! o qui me geidis in vallibus Haemi
Sistat, et ingenti ramorum protegat umbra!
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognocere causas,
Atque metus omnes et inexorabile fatum
Subjecit pedibus, strepitumque Acheronis avari!
Fortunatus et ille, Deos qui novit agrestes,
Panaque, Silvanumque senum, Nymphasque sorores!

x. Virgil

Which Tom Vernon translated as:

I can do without celebrity: I'm happy with simple things -
Woods, a river in a valley, an ordinary brook. . .
OK, if you can come up with a reason for everything,
If the future's a walk-over for you (and never mind the row
that the forces of evil are kicking up outside) - that's fine.
But I'll show you a lucky man, a happy man -
He's the one who gets on with the country gods:
Pan; old Sylvanus; and all the company of Nymphs.
[Old Paganus, the country-dweller, cheerfully disregarding the urbanites and their monotheistic systems]

Trouble is if you stick the Latin into Google(tm) it'll come up with all sorts but it won't come up with the soul.

And my translation of Goethe: You have only truly been where you have stood.

Somedays I truly love this forum

 

[Purky]

Say, Tincatinker, have you ever read "Jitterbug Perfume" by Tom Robbins?

 

[Tincatinker]

Purky, I haven't. But thanks to your prompt it's Amazoning it's way to me already. 'Even Cowgirls Get the Blues' sits amongst other paper treasures on my shelves. It'll have to make room for a neighbour.

 

[martin1ws]

It is a nice quote:

..."Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen"...

...

The same word can have different meanings.

Each person has different associations with one word (e.g. a simple word like farmer : hard-working or not / too much aid payments or not enough / intelligent or not / good to animals or torturing animals / organic or industrial farming / ...) [I have this idea from a "birkenbihl" language course].

So information cannot be "transmitted exactly" between humans by using our language ... even if it is the same language... and it becomes much more ambigous if you translate something (or if you change subject to something like religion / belief ).

So, it is as you said and I should never forget:

...
Because when just one sentence, like that of Goethe, can generate so many translations or interpretations with different emotional atmospheres, a seemingly innocent remark can spark unintentional heated discussions and cause people to drift apart, instead of finding common ground.....

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

Hi Purky , it's always difficult to translate quotes .
As long I can read the original I don't even bother to translate .

Wish you well, Peter .

 

[Rick M]

The same word can have different meanings.

Each person has different associations with one word (e.g. a simple word like farmer : hard-working or not / too much aid payments or not enough / intelligent or not / good to animals or torturing animals / organic or industrial farming / ...) [I have this idea from a "birkenbihl" language course].

So information cannot be "transmitted exactly" between humans by using our language ... even if it is the same language... and it becomes much more ambigous if you translate something (or if you change subject to something like religion / belief ).

Indeed, this fact is often overlooked. An old theory that language learning drives the physical development of the brain itself is pretty well established truth now. The implication here is that the language and the thought cannot really be separated from one another. The language itself drives the thought within the brain. A translation provides literal meanings without the nuance of context. The earlier comment that a Translator is more accurately described as an Interpreter is bang on. When a thought is formed in one language, the interpreter may discover that no such thought exists in the other language, and improvisation is required to get it close.

 

[SYates]

There are a lot of quotes "attributed" to Goethe whose exact source is, to putting it gently, unknown.

As for "Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen", as I native German I would translate it as:

"Only where you have been on foot, have you really been."

Native English speakers are welcome to correct my grammar etc. Buen Camino/Guten Weg, SY

 

[Kiwi-family]

One sentence can be harder to translate/interpret than a whole page because there are no other clues, no context.

 

[C clearly]

"Only where you have been on foot, have you really been."

I know no German, and almost nothing about Goethe's work, but I think these words work really well - grammar is correct, and is formal and elegant enough to suit a deep thought.

 

[Purky]

What I like is that both SYates (Only where you have been on foot, have you really been) and Tincatinker (You have only truly been where you have stood) capture the soul or feel of the original, but use different words to get there. I think the art of translation/interpretation lies in the ability to get to the heart of what is said or written, rather than replacing the words in another language. Which is not only a linguistic feat, but also a cultural one.
And even then the effort might not get the intended result. Because, as we all know, a nod is as good as a wink to a blind bat.

 

[Former member 49149]

There are a lot of quotes "attributed" to Goethe whose exact source is, to putting it gently, unknown.

As for "Nur wo du zu Fuß warst, bist du auch wirklich gewesen", as I native German I would translate it as:

"Only where you have been on foot, have you really been."

Native English speakers are welcome to correct my grammar etc. Buen Camino/Guten Weg, SY

Absolutely no need for correction, SY. A sentence or two in The Great Westward Walk illustrates that notion very well. The protagonist meets three walkers inside a tunnel: where they have been is where he will go, and where he has been is where they will go. At the moment of meeting, they are each present to where they are, the space they share.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

Not only can translating something be difficult but translating the translation can be too.

A sign on the Camino Frances where it descends to Molinaseca:


I would translate the Spanish sign to an American sign as:

Attention cyclists
Steep slopes next 10 miles
Proceed with caution

 

[grayland]

I have passed that sign many times..on foot, so did not take great heed.
I had always thought the garbled English was referring to wind...not slope.

I am glad I was not on a bike.
I would have been just watching for strong wind gusts.

 

[Rick of Rick and Peg]

I have passed that sign many times..on foot, so did not take great heed.
I had always thought the garbled English was referring to wind...not slope.

I am glad I was not on a bike.
I would have been just watching for strong wind gusts.

The tricky part of the translation was pendiente/slope. In translation dictionaries I've seen outstanding given for pendiente but with a note indicating a debt or other financial usage. It appears that the Spanish think that a debt that is still owed is like something on a slope, it might slide away from you. The English version appears to be much the same, an outstanding debt is like money standing out in a field, something that might disappear quickly.

The translation of en could cause a problem too I think. The translation given, in 15 kms (versus next 15 kms,) would get me thinking that I wouldn't have to worry until I've travelled beyond those 15 kilometers.

 

[grayland]

I have always looked at that sign and smiled at the translation.
Even in my wrong assumption that it was referring to "wind" ...it was still a head scratcher.

I think "wind" came to mind as "strong" would never be associated with "slope" ..but often with "wind".

I really does validate the discussions above concerning the individual interpretations based on individual perceptions.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Translation always is a problem as helpful pilgrims weigh in at O Cebreiro:

 

[VNwalking]

As long I can read the original I don't even bother to translate .

Ah, I envy you, Peter!
But...in a language that has been learned after infancy, surely you are translating as you read, at least subconsciously? I can read French, for example, but even when I don't have to think about the definitions of familiar words, it's hard to forget that they have come to me through the lens of my natal language.

 

[Purky]

Ah, I envy you, Peter!
But...in a language that has been learned after infancy, surely you are translating as you read, at least subconsciously? I can read French, for example, but even when I don't have to think about the definitions of familiar words, it's hard to forget that they have come to me through the lens of my natal language.

It's a Dutch thing...

 

[SYates]

... But...in a language that has been learned after infancy, surely you are translating as you read, at least subconsciously? ...

I can't answer for Peter, but I know that I don't translate subconsciously between German and English as I sometimes know what the English word means without knowing its translation into German. Buen Camino, SY

 

[VNwalking]

I know that I don't translate subconsciously between German and English as I sometimes know what the English word means without knowing its translation into German.

Yeah, but you had to learn the what the English word meant somewhere along the way, right? That 'thank you' meant 'danke,' and so on. Even if you know the meaning automatically, that very knowing is based in and filtered through the original translation that happened when you learned it. Except for the words and phrases that have no equivalent, of course...
I'm 'splitting hairs,' perhaps.
But translation is an art, no doubt about it.
(Even within one language sometimes, but that's another story....)

As for you Dutchies...what you lack in mountains, you have in language skills. I'm astonished by the fluency of my Dutch friends in any number of languages. I envy the lot of you!

 

[Purky]

These last few side notes do open a window to something else. I have noticed over the years that I feel more free and less restricted by my past and upbringing when I speak and think in English instead of my native Dutch.
It might have something to do with the fact that my internal voice "speaks" Dutch, and by using another language I can put some distance between myself and that little voice in my head. In this sense a different language can be a means of escape, or maybe even some healing.
In a broader sense the use of another language might subtly change your perception of the world and the way you view reality. I don't mean that in a full on Matrix or Carlos Castaneda sort of way, but a little shift of perspective through the use of another language did bring about new horizons (both external and internal) for me.
Any takers?

 

[Turga]

And then of course there are those texts that simply cannot be translated due to some special cultural aspects or ”double-meanings” of words. I come to think of an episode in the comic strip “Beetle Bailey” where Beetle is washing dishes surrounded by piles of dirty pots & pans. He is saying “I joined the army to see the world – not to wash dishes” and Sgt. Snorkel puts his mouth close to his ear and says, “Well, take a look at turkey, grease and china”

 

[VNwalking]

Any takers?

Well, sure.
I'm not completely fluent in more than English. (If that. It's actually American.)
So I can hardly comment, except to say that even with only basic skill in French and somewhat less in Burmese, a different aspect of personality comes out with each. And when I'm in Spain, using my slowly growing vocabulary of Castilian is a different internal experience than happens in any of those other languages. I know maybe 100 words? Something like that - not so many. But when I say (for example) "Buen Camino!" what happens in the heart is not something that ever happens in English, or Burmese, or French.

And regarding subconscious translation...that example is one that begins to explain what all of you are talking about. We say "Buen Camino' and even linguistic ignoramuses like me don't need to think about it. We know what it means, and in all shades of meaning. So I guess you're all correct about fluency, and I'll have to wait and see for myself once I learn the other 9,900 words in each of those other languages.

 

[Former member 49149]

Knowing palabras sueltas, ie individual words without a context, could bring you to
“translate” pendientes as earrings, or the plural of meanwhile, or hanging, in the balance... So, if Google was to blame for the translation as “outstanding” it is because Artificial Intelligence still has a distance to go. Humour is notoriously difficult to translate, but did you hear of the Kerryman who won the Nobel Prize for Agriculture? He was outstanding in his field.

 

[Purky]

Very interesting! It feels like you can almost replace (native/dominant) language with 'nature' and cultural background/second language with 'nurture' and go from there. I don't nearly know as much about this as you do; I'm glad you took the time and effort to show me there is a lot going on in this area.

 

[grayland]

It may help to explain some of the unexpected reactions we sometimes get to seemingly non controversial posts. We have a large number of active members whose primary language is not English.

 

[Turga]

It may help to explain some of the unexpected reactions we sometimes get to seemingly non controversial posts.

Agree. As long as you don’t believe that the ”language barrier” is the sole reason for unexpected reactions. In a sender-receiver scenario, there is a lot of room for misinterpretations –not least in written communication. I think the best remedy is the one expressed in another thread by a moderator: Think twice before you hit the post-reply button.

 

[VNwalking]

Super post, @Kathar1na, and very nice thread, @Purky! Thank you.

I'm not sure whether it's the language or the cultural background that creates these different associations.

Both, I think. This sent me down a rabbit hole, reading some of the neurolinguistic studies about all this. Very technical and a bit heady (too much for me sometimes), but for those who are interested, there's a lot of very neat work out there out there about language, culture, and how language shapes out minds. Like:
http://sapir.psych.wisc.edu/papers/scudellari2016.pdf
(This is the most general and accessible article I found...there's much more out there...)

There seem to be a few basic take-home messages:
First, that those of you who are bilingual have differently wired brains from those of us who aren't. (We knew that, right?)
And second, that what language we speak, and how many, affects how we think, process information, and perceive.

Language and culture are inseparable and feed back on each other in countless ways. Language creates culture which creates language. Which develops the brain in particular ways, and affects how we see ourselves and each other. It's really interesting stuff.
Translation? It's as much mystery as art.

Walking the camino can open the doors to so much, not the least being the understanding that in spite of this we can connect with each other deeply, and come out the better for it.
(Now there's a study for someone. How walking the camino rewires the brain. Putting pilgrims in MRIs before and after walking.)

(And off topic but I learned that English is the 3rd most widely spoken language in the world, after Mandarin...and.....Spanish!)

 

[C clearly]

Very interesting topic!

Language and culture are inseparable and feed back on each other in countless ways. Language creates culture which creates language. Which develops the brain in particular ways, and affects how we see ourselves and each other. It's really interesting stuff.

That is why your statement that "those of you who are bilingual have differently wired brains from those of us who aren't" is not such a solid conclusion! How do you define "bilingual" and "wiring" - aren't both on a continuum of degree and change? Wiring can be changed, even late in life. Take heart in this article that I previously posted in another thread.

And off topic but I learned that English is the 3rd most widely spoken language in the world, after Mandarin...and.....Spanish!

I think it depends on what "widely" means. whether the criteria are (a) #people speaking it as natives, (b) #people able to function in it, (c) geographic spread of native speakers, (d) geographic spread of functional speakers, etc.

(Fortunately, @VNwalking , I think you enjoy a semantic debate and don't mind my arguments. )

 

[VNwalking]

(Fortunately, @VNwalking , I think you enjoy a semantic debate and don't mind my arguments. )

Yup. You're right.
So please let me clarify.

That is why your statement that "those of you who are bilingual have differently wired brains from those of us who aren't" is not such a solid conclusion! How do you define "bilingual" and "wiring" - aren't both on a continuum of degree and change? Wiring can be changed, even late in life.

That quote isn't a logical deduction, but the results of lots of neurolinguistic studies, such as this one. And you're right - neuroplasticity is a fortunate fact of life and no-one is contesting that. In fact that's the good news - if we become bilingual, we change our minds.

'Wiring' is my shorthand for physical brain structure; by 'bilingual' the studies (like this one) lay out their criteria for that as balanced proficiency in both the native and acquired language.

I think it depends on what "widely" means. whether the criteria are (a) #people speaking it as natives, (b) #people able to function in it, (c) geographic spread of native speakers, (d) geographic spread of functional speakers, etc.

I have no idea, really, what exactly was meant - I was just quoting a study that now I cannot find. But it made me smile. More reason to learn Spanish.
(FWIW, here are Wikipedia and another site that both give more information. The second one gives a few more layers of information that touch on your questions...)

 

[VNwalking]

@Purky, this is dovetailing with some other work I've been doing, taking it in unexpected directions.
A bow of thanks!
And here are some lovely episodes of On Being that relate to the topic at hand:
https://onbeing.org/programs/jean-berko-gleason-unfolding-language-unfolding-life/
https://onbeing.org/programs/david-treuer-language-and-meaning-an-ojibwe-story/

 

[Rick M]

In a broader sense the use of another language might subtly change your perception of the world and the way you view reality. I don't mean that in a full on Matrix or Carlos Castaneda sort of way, but a little shift of perspective through the use of another language did bring about new horizons (both external and internal) for me.
Any takers?

That, in my dull, gray boxy way, was what I was trying to suggest above. You cannot separate language from thought anymore than you can separate religion from culture. We perceive language as being a mechanism we use to express "pure" thought. The corollary would be that we all think the same thoughts, but translate our thoughts into different languages for sharing with others. This turns out not to be exactly right. Its easy to find cases where words in one language do NOT translate cleanly into another language. How could this be? A simple gap in the language is to blame? I think not. If the exact thought was common to all individuals, surely we would have a word for it in all languages, after all, we have had lots of time to invent words. There is a ton of commonality of course, but Nope, nothing like a perfect one-to-one correlation. The language your brain operates with, is connected to, and influences the thoughts, rather than being exclusively their servant.

Man that's esoteric. Purky, what I'm really saying is that its perfectly natural for you to be dour in English, and flamboyant in Italian.

 

[VNwalking]

Man that's esoteric. Purky, what I'm really saying is that its perfectly natural for you to be dour in English, and flamboyant in Italian.

What I was saying. In a fraction of the words.
Thanks, Rick. Precisely.

 

[Former member 49149]

Multilingual Learning for a Globalised World Is the title of a Futurelearn MOOC course from Glasgow University. For anybody with an interest in changing your mind. I followed it last year and really enjoyed it. I might even follow it again. What’s my name again? Seriously, it could interest some who are into neuroscience, plasticity, keeping the brain ticking over. If this is not a valid post as it is a kind of advertising, then let it be deleted.

 

[Purky]

its perfectly natural for you to be dour in English, and flamboyant in Italian.

Flamboyant in Italian? Man, I wish... It's more like careful and a bit inaccessible in Dutch, and more jolly and outspoken in English. My French and German are adequate for day to day stuff, but aren't even close to the level of my English.
Funny though, this thread reminded me I really wanted to learn Spanish, so yesterday I went ahead and enrolled in a beginners course starting end of this month. I should be able to do more than just order coffee or beer on my next camino in Spain.

 

[Purky]

What’s my name again?

Dammit man! I'm a pilgrim, not a linguist!

 

[Purky]

Here are concepts that are supposed to be equivalent translations but for myself (and I know for certain also for others) the associations are somewhat different in the different languages: laicité/separation of church and state/Trennung von Staat und Kirche and rule of law/Rechtsstaat. Perhaps you experience something similar, ie you feel more free and less restricted because words in English just don't have the same associations as the equivalent words in Dutch?

Perhaps the difference in associations you observe comes from the fact that those words are abstracts, constructs of the human mind. Because they are not visible (or tactile, bitter, noisy or smelly) they are very difficult to translate or interpret. Words like table, shoe or dog should be far easier. That said, everyone will see a different dog or table in their minds eye when they hear or say the word.
And I think you are right that feeling more free in English comes from different (emotional) associations with words and phrases compared with their Dutch counterparts. Maybe I'll even discover a totally new side of myself when I start learning Spanish...