Templiers/Hospitaliers wrt the CdS pilgrimage?

Kathor1 · Aug 28, 2023

Why do we not only let Mr Boole rest in peace but also Mr Doyle and the Spartans and stay in the here and now and describe it as: "There is no rhyme or reason in some posts of this thread". Let us consider the substance of post #180.

Post #180 contains a "snippet" followed by 3 sentences that I would not call conclusions but word associations. The English translation of the Bible contains Jameses and Jacobs. Other translations do not make the same distinction of surnames and tell only stories about Jacques (in French) and Jakobs (in German) and Jacobs (in Dutch): at least one Jakob in the Old Testament and at least three Jakobs in the New Testament. Jacobus in Latin. In particular Protestant parishers will also have heard from their vicar at one time or another that a New Bond aka New Testament aka New Covenant was formed at the beginning of our AD era. No arks involved. BTW, this is not a discussion of religion but just general knowledge about a major world faith. It is in Wikipedia.

The snippet can be copy-pasted, typo included, from the web: from Pierced Hearts of Jesus and Mary, from Pilgrim Center of Hope and from the website of a St James parish.

The snippet is part of a larger text starting with the words: "It is believed that on January 2nd, in the year 40 A.D., St. James and his disciples where resting on the shore side of the Egro river and started to hear sweet voices singing."

Those familiar with the history of the medieval pilgrimage to St James in Santiago will have spotted the typo: St James and his party were not sitting on the bank of the river Egro. They were sitting on the bank of the Ebro. The text tells the legend of St James and Mary and The Pillar. The church that was built was built near the Ebro river in Zaragoza. Not in Santiago. We know it as the Cathedral Basilica of Our Lady of the Pillar (Nuestra Señora del Pilar). It is in Wikipedia.

Further reading for interested etymologists : How did the name Jacob become James in the New Testament?

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

Thanks to everyone's encouragement, I have come up with a third possibility:

It was recognised to be an excellent opportunity to create a raison d'etre for an increased militarised presence in the Iberian peninsula, and thus a means of steadily persuading the retreat of the Moors.

Naturally, there may be a combination of the three possibilities.

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

Genesis 35:1: Then God said to Jacob, “Arise, go up to Bethel and live there, and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau.”

Genesis 35:7: There Jacob built an altar, and he called that place El-bethel, because it was there that God had revealed Himself to Jacob as he fled from his brother.

Genesis 35:9-15: Then God appeared to Jacob again when he came from Paddan-aram, and He blessed him. 10 God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name.”

Judges 20:26–27: Then all the people of Israel, the whole army, went up and came to Bethel and wept. They sat there before the LORD and fasted that day until evening, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. 27 And the people of Israel inquired of the LORD (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days).

So, by some, in the 9th century, The Temple (of God or Solomon), was also known as Jacob's Temple (or Altar).

So, wittingly or unwittingly, relics from Iacob (Old Testament), became known as the remains of Sant Iago (New Testament).

It'd throw some people off the scent eh?

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

In case it needs ephasising, the 9th century desecration of Solomon's Temple (Holy of Holies & Ark), and its consequent rescue & guardianship by The Templars, is the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history.

And that's an understatement. ;-)

VNwalking · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
In case it needs ephasising, the 9th century desecration of Solomon's Temple (Holy of Holies & Ark), and its consequent rescue & guardianship by The Templars, is the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history.

Oh, come on, @Crosbie.
Here I lose my patience and politeness.
Your secret history is missing some major events that were far more consequential to more people on the planet than the sacking of an unimportant temple in the Middle East.

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

VNwalking said:
some major events that were far more consequential to more people on the planet than the sacking of ...

I just said 'the most important thing to happen'. This does not mean that there have not been other events in mankind's history that have been 'more consequential to more people'.

VNwalking · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
just said 'the most important thing to happen

'The most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history' (what you actually said) does mean the most consequential thing to the most people.
And if it happened it was a blip, frankly.

Kathor1 · Aug 28, 2023

Below is what I see on my screen about "the most important thing to happen".

I presume that we agreed earlier to suspend a commonly shared concept of reason and logic because otherwise I would have concluded on the basis of this exchange on my screen that "the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history, and that's an understatement, was inconsequential for the majority of the people who lived on earth then and inconsequential for the majority of the 8 billion people living on earth now.

Of course that would be rushing to conclusions and a foolish thing to do and share on the forum. The connoisseur of online exchanges would have noted that the mere possibility of such inconsequence is excluded: could be and could not be (or is that: could be not?)

The contemporary Camino peregrin@s who share a common space and a common sense of history and of reality are happy that a 12th century booklet survived until now, that is was translated from Latin into French nearly a hundred years ago, that people came up with the idea of the Yellow Arrows, that people built a great hospitality infrastructure, that Romanesque churches and Gothic cathedrals are still standing along the Camino Francés and elsewhere, and that they have the means to travel to Spain and the capability to walk.

"The most important thing to happen" subthread:

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

Kathar1na said:
"The most important thing to happen" subthread:

View attachment 155305

Are you trying to suggest that I'm contradicting myself?

This really is clutching at straws, semantic quibbling, and resorting to diversionary tactics.

My comment in #204 stands.

#206 was pointing out to #205 that 'most important' does not mean that there have not been other events in mankind's history that have been 'more consequential to more people'.

#206 was not contradicting #204.

Sheesh.

VNwalking · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
Sheesh

For once we see eye to eye.

Honest question. Is English your native language, @Crosbie? If not that might explain what part of 'most' you fail to understand.

If it is, please stop with the contradictory gaslighting.

C clearly · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
This really is clutching at straws, semantic quibbling, and resorting to diversionary tactics.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Kirkie · Aug 28, 2023

Diversionary tactics? Here is another.
First though, I am breaking my own resolution of this morning, to keep my nose out of this thread.
I am fascinated by the resilience of the OP.
Usually members preparing for a camino ask about socks with toes, a very light or a very, very light sleeping bag, etc...
I could not in a million years unravel a single point in this thread that adds a cubit to my span of life, so here is my diversionary tactic. It floated into my mind when trying to figure out the point of the thread.
Crosbie, put the icing on the cake and tell us your name is... Alfie!
Before any one thinks I am being hard, you can believe me or not, I have no bad feelings towards Crosbie, none whatsoever. It strikes me, @Crosbie that you have a special waistcoat, hope you take it on camino, that deflects points of divergent thinking. As I said in your thread about bathrooms or whatever it was, I truly wish your wife and yourself the very best camino...

David Tallan · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
Temple's desecration earlier in the 9th century

You have still to explain what desecration of what Temple, the Temple in Jerusalem not only having been desecrated but destroyed in 70 AD and never subsequently rebuilt.

grayland · Aug 28, 2023

I am wondering if my friend @Bradypus can give us some first hand recolection of what the Templars were actually up to along the way since he may have been there.
Roland has been our best personal source of the early days on the Camino.

Kathor1 · Aug 28, 2023

Short summary and clarification in order to prevent misunderstandings - this is what I see on my screen when I summarise the substance of the subthread on the most important thing to happen:

is the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history. And that's an understatement. ;-). This does not mean that there have not been other events in mankind's history that have been 'more consequential to more people'.

No judgement was made and no conclusion was drawn from this.

I considered a subset of mankind, namely contemporary Camino peregrin@s - nowadays a good quarter of a million to nearly half a million every year.

I described a connection between their/our "now" and the "then" where "then" is around the year 1140 when the now famous manuscript of what is now known as Book V of the Codex Calixtinus was written.

Was the most important thing to happen consequential or inconsequential for us who are walking on the Ways of St James, on the Chemins de Saint Jacques, on the Jakobswege, on the Caminos de Santiago? I would not dare to make a pronouncement.

PS: Edited to correct several typos.

David Tallan · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
As I said, if there had been other options, I would have mentioned them. Ipso facto, there is no error in logic.

I think the other options are all those that do not include a connection between SdC and the Temple including (e) that there were no relics preserved from the Temple and the discovery in SdC was just that and not a deflection attempt. The fact that you don't acknowledge the possibility, despite what your logic tells you, does not in fact prevent the possibility from existing.

David Tallan · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
In case it needs ephasising, the 9th century desecration of Solomon's Temple (Holy of Holies & Ark), and its consequent rescue & guardianship by The Templars, is the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history.

And that's an understatement. ;-)

I'm not sure how that could have happened since the Holy of Holies had been destroyed in the first century.

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

David Tallan said:
I'm not sure how that could have happened since the Holy of Holies had been destroyed in the first century.

Bear in mind that the Templars have taken pains to confuse the historical record concerning The Temple and themselves, and thereby confound the majority of researchers.
Per #142, prior to the 9th century, the Temple was pristine. Given the proto-Templars recognition of The Temple's stupendous importance, they were extremely motivated to arrest those engaged in its desecration as rapidly as possible. Thereafter, they encountered The Ark, and, unlike the desecrators, were uniquely prepared to apprehend its testimony and covenant.

Unless you fancy melting down like a Tussaud's waxwork in Death Valley, you can be thankful that The Templars have sanitised things to such a degree that almost everyone regards 'Raiders of The Lost Ark' as fabulism.

Blue pill: Wikipedia & The textbooks are correct.
Red pill: I'm here in pursuit of knowledge - not to yank your chain.

Tincatinker · Aug 28, 2023

Amigo, would you like some assistance getting back into your tree?

You do realize that you have already revealed to much of that that should not be revealed?

We have all tried to help. Now you must be left to your fate.

May your road be straight and true…

(Masonic reference there. Sorry about that every one)

David Tallan · Aug 28, 2023

Crosbie said:
prior to the 9th century, the Temple was pristine.

It's amazing how they changed the worship practices of the Jews and all of their writings for 9 centuries, not to mention the monuments that Trajan built, etc. without anyone noticing.

I'm open to new information but it has got to come with some sort of evidence to support it beyond "I said so" given the huge amount of evidence on the other side (not just Wikipedia).

Crosbie · Aug 28, 2023

David Tallan said:
It's amazing how they changed the worship practices of the Jews and all of their writings for 9 centuries, not to mention the monuments that Trajan built, etc. without anyone noticing.

I'm open to new information but it has got to come with some sort of evidence to support it beyond "I said so" given the huge amount of evidence on the other side (not just Wikipedia).

Well, given the difficulty of providing evidence, I have been reluctant to address your several complaints regarding some historical records of Solomon's Temple being inconsistent with my claims. But, I thought I could at least suggest to you that there has been deliberate obfuscation, if not wholesale fabrication intended to deflect and deceive. This should not be unexpected once the magnitude of The Temple is fully appreciated. But, then, to the unenlightened laity, The Temple is tantamount to a religious fiction. So, it's a bit of a bootstrap problem. :-}

Again per #142, I'm not here to persuade of what I know, but to state what I know in case it helps readers help me in my pursuit of further knowledge.

And, as I hope should be clear to some, I have been gaining knowledge throughout this discussion. God willing, so have others.

VNwalking · Aug 29, 2023

There's a bootstrap problem and you'recthe one who has it:

Bootstrapping is a suspicious form of reasoning that verifies a source’s reliability by checking the source against itself. Theories that endorse such reasoning face the bootstrapping problem.

Crosbie said:
once the magnitude of The Temple is fully appreciated.

Most people on the planet have never heard of it. Not because it was mysteriously secret, but because it was so unimportant.

Crosbie said:
unenlightened laity

Read, 'people grounded in reality rather than conspiracist fabulism.'

Crosbie said:
state what I know in case it helps readers help me in my pursuit of further knowledge

We've been trying our best to bring you back to something grounded, but you seem impervious to reality.

There is a big difference between knowledge based on fact and ideas based on irrational belief. And you appear to abide firmly in the latter. It's impossible to argue with that - everything gets twisted to confirm the belief, even to the extent of making things up, or simply saying 'it was secret.'

JabbaPapa · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
In case it needs ephasising, the 9th century desecration of Solomon's Temple (Holy of Holies & Ark), and its consequent rescue & guardianship by The Templars, is the most important thing to happen in the last few millennia of mankind's history.

And that's an understatement. ;-)

And never mind such trivialities as the Incarnation, Passion, and Resurrection of the Lord I guess ...

BTW Jerusalem was razed to the ground by the Roman Empire in AD 70 ...

As to the Ark of the Covenant, nobody has seen it for about 2,600 years.

JabbaPapa · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
Bear in mind that the Templars have taken pains to confuse the historical record concerning The Temple and themselves, and thereby confound the majority of researchers.
Per #142, prior to the 9th century, the Temple was pristine.

This is complete nonsense.

Somebody seems to have confused your view of History, but it cannot have been any Templars, because there are none.

Kathor1 · Aug 29, 2023

For those who have not yet reached the level of knowledge that I have reached:

The red pill and blue pill represent a choice between the willingness to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth by taking the red pill or remaining in the contented experience of ordinary reality with the blue pill. The terms originate from the 1999 film The Matrix.

I got this from Wikipedia though.

Crosbie · Aug 29, 2023

Kathar1na said:
The terms originate from the 1999 film The Matrix.

Believe it or not, but I was part of Cinesite's 3D VFX/CGI team just before it relocated to the US to work on The Matrix. I didn't fancy moving to the US. :-/

Kirkie · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
Well, given the difficulty of providing evidence, I have been reluctant to address your several complaints regarding some historical records of Solomon's Temple being inconsistent with my claims. But, I thought I could at least suggest to you that there has been deliberate obfuscation, if not wholesale fabrication intended to deflect and deceive. This should not be unexpected once the magnitude of The Temple is fully appreciated. But, then, to the unenlightened laity, The Temple is tantamount to a religious fiction. So, it's a bit of a bootstrap problem. :-}

Again per #142, I'm not here to persuade of what I know, but to state what I know in case it helps readers help me in my pursuit of further knowledge.

And, as I hope should be clear to some, I have been gaining knowledge throughout this discussion. God willing, so have others.

No. Why? It matters not an iota to me. Some forum members have done amazing feats to try to engage with you. Engagement does not seem to be in your toolkit. I promise, this is my last contribution to your thread.

Crosbie · Aug 29, 2023

dick bird said:
Now that is what I call an understatement, given that you haven´t actually provided any.

Neo: What is the Matrix?
Trinity: The answer is out there, Neo, and it's looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.

As allegories go, The Matrix is pretty good.

Neo=Neophyte.
Trinity=Father, Son, Holy ghost=3 pillars of Freemasonry (+ Jacob's Ladder, viz Jacob of The Temple).
Matrix=Mary/Maria/Marian/mère/mer/mother/mater/Demeter/materia/etc.

So, for evidence, you must do the research, and the answers will find you - if you want them to.

Kathor1 · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
Believe it or not, but I was part of Cinesite's 3D VFX/CGI team just before it relocated to the US to work on The Matrix. I didn't fancy moving to the US. :-/

I was willing to believe it as soon as I read it.

But, you know, the interconnectdness of all things, the indomitable thirst for knowledge, and in my case, the reliance on old-fashioned tools like looking for historical documention that is floating around: it’s on the web.

Unless … unless of course those bits of 0s and 1s had been created years ago with the aim of deliberate obfuscation, if not wholesale fabrication intended to deflect and deceive decades later …. .

Anyway, respect.

VNwalking · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
you must do the research

The people who most use this expression have no clue what actual research is. What they really mean (and should say instead) is 'you must find information online and that confirms your ideas, no matter how dubious or unreliable the source.' '

dick bird · Aug 29, 2023

Crosbie said:
So, for evidence, you must do the research, and the answers will find you - if you want them to.

You may have been a very good software engineer, Crosbie, but you´d have made a crap defence lawyer:

Counsel for the defence: ¨M'lud, my client is entirely innocent of the charges against him.¨
Judge: ¨Then pray, present your evidence proving your client´s innocence.¨
Counsel for the defence: ¨You must search for the evidence, if you do, the answers will find you¨.

Yeah, right. That´s not how it works. If you want to convince somebody of something, you have to present them with the evidence. If you have convinced us of one thing, it is that you do not have any evidence.

Crosbie · Aug 29, 2023

dick bird said:
You may have been a very good software engineer, Crosbie, but you´d have made a crap defence lawyer:

Funnily enough I have spoken to an audience of about 100 lawyers at one of the world's top law firms: Freshfields, Bruckhaus, Deringer.

JohnLloyd · Aug 29, 2023

When I walked the Camino for the first time, I didn't know very much about it, I didn't know why I was going to try to walk it and I had no idea what I would discover.

What I learned along the Way was of incalculable worth, it changed my life for the better in multiple ways and it continues to inform me now, years later.

I doubt that would have happened if I had begun my journey with so many intellectual, historical and theoretical considerations floating in my mind, even before I had taken a step on the path.

Walk first, learn as you go, think and consider, and then, many miles later, you may have more answers than you ever expected.

Crosbie · Aug 29, 2023

dick bird said:
Counsel for the defence: ¨M'lud, my client is entirely innocent of the charges against him.¨
Judge: ¨Then pray, present your evidence proving your client´s innocence.¨

Incidentally, jurisprudentially speaking, one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty...

You need a better judge, let alone a defense lawyer.

JabbaPapa · Aug 29, 2023

OK that's it, I'm out.

Bradypus · Aug 29, 2023

grayland said:
I am wondering if my friend @Bradypus can give us some first hand recolection of what the Templars were actually up to along the way since he may have been there.

Your confidence in me is touching but sadly misplaced. I am feeling every one of my 61 years at the moment though. In the albergue in Roncesvalles after a damp walk via Valcarlos. My favourite personal historical recollection was on an American Facebook group where a man claimed that his late wife had been in the group of druids who travelled from Stonehenge to Santiago and so created the Camino. One of 70 previous lives she could remember with some clarity.

Kirkie · Aug 29, 2023

Bradypus said:
Your confidence in me is touching but sadly misplaced. I am feeling every one of my 61 years at the moment though. In the albergue in Roncesvalles after a damp walk via Valcarlos. My favourite personal historical recollection was on an American Facebook group where a man claimed that his late wife had been in the group of druids who travelled from Stonehenge to Santiago and so created the Camino. One of 70 previous lives she could remember with some clarity.

My keyboard is not behaving. Young man, rest, get warm, and be ready for the morrow. Forget this thread and have a wonderful camino.

alexwalker · Aug 29, 2023

Bradypus said:
...My favourite personal historical recollection was on an American Facebook group where a man claimed that his late wife had been in the group of druids who travelled from Stonehenge to Santiago and so created the Camino. One of 70 previous lives she could remember with some clarity.

Albert Einstein comes to mind:

“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”

Buen Camino, @Bradypus !

alexwalker · Aug 29, 2023

alexwalker said:
Albert Einstein comes to mind:

“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”

Buen Camino, @Bradypus !

In his later years, Albert Einstein, due to his conclusions on his own relativity theory work, concluded that the universe could not be infinite. That leaves us alone here... Which this thread gives some support to: Human stupidity is outstanding.

I believe in this; I have been married to two of those.

lalaone · Aug 29, 2023

Einstein also leaves this comfort for nonconformists:

"Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."

I would assume that includes many of us who make the pilgrimage to Santiago, albeit in very diverse ways. Let's face it, we are all a little weird by the world's standards...so we all have at least a little bit in common. Buen Camino to all! And especially to those who are on the Way now, like Bradypus, or who will be there soon, like Crosbie and SabsP.

Tincatinker · Aug 29, 2023

As I was coming down the stairs I met a man who wasn’t there. He wasn’t there again today. I wish, I wish he’d go away

ivar · Aug 29, 2023

Since this drifted away from the Camino topics that the forum is about, I will close this thread.

SYates · Saturday at 4:53 PM

I thought it would be great if we share music that reminds us of the Camino, ideally with a sentence about why it matters to you. This song, apart of the beautiful hunting voice that let's me...

VNwalking · Saturday at 2:27 PM

Over the New Year holiday I listened to this very nicely done podcast from the BBC about medieval pilgrimage. It was amusing to realize how completely familiar the medieval debates around...

Templiers/Hospitaliers wrt the CdS pilgrimage?

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