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Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian
Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at riskamp.theguardian.com
Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.
Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian
Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at riskamp.theguardian.com
Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.
A handful of incidents along the route have made headlines in recent years. In 2018, a 50-year-old Venezuelan woman was allegedly kidnapped and raped by two men as she walked through north-western Spain.
I do not know where you got these figures. This is what I read in the article "Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment"The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?
9 women interviewed. Possibly representative of a much larger number of harrassments on the camino. We all need to talk about this, and we also need to look around and try to find policies to help women doing the camino together.Of the nine women who spoke to the Guardian, six reported the incidents to police. In only one case was the perpetrator located and prosecuted.
I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?I do not know where you got these figures. This is what I read in the article:
9 people interviewed. Possibly representative of a much larger number of harrassments on the camino. We all need to talk about this, and we also need to look around and try to find policies to help women doing the camino together.
I had two messages this morning, with the attachment, from people worried about me walking alone. While this needs to be taken seriously the Camino is still a safe place compared with the rest of the world. The alert cops app, police patrols, both in cars and on foot with police actually talking to pilgrims (could you imagine that happening in the UK) are all a step forward.[edit to add this awfulness for scale -in London, a rape is reported every hour:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/rape-offences-figures-london-metropolitan-police-b1183106.html ]
Nevertheless, I will say I’d already agreed with one of my daughters wanting to walk the coastal alone next year that it’d be prudent to do it as a pair - sadly, that’s just the way the world is.
This might be a good start.I do have my troubles with that article. It paints a picture of the Camino that is very much in conflict of what i experienced and, more importantly, of what seems to be consensus with all the female persons i had contact with. On top of that comes the statement that there is some kind of "Taboo" of talking about it, which i personally think is utter bull'it.
I would also love to have some kind of statistic. Or a proper newspiece, for a start. I am a bit surprised for the Guardian needing to make such a clickbait article, but then, i don't read that regularly. Times might have changed.
This is a sensitive topic so we will discuss it without venturing into side issues (especially political ones).
The camino should be safe, everywhere should be safe. Women alone should not be subjected to harassment or assault or made to feel that their own behaviour is somehow the cause of what happens to them. Over the last few years the authorities and the police in Spain and Portugal have started to take the issue of sexual harassment and assault a little more seriously but there is a long way to go. They will take it even more seriously if the issue is brought out into the open and talked about.
You are suggesting that the authorities in Spain and Portugal do not take the issue of sexual harassment seriously? They have a long way to go in comparison to which countries?
I am stating that the authorities in Spain and Portugal are taking this issue more seriously than they used to but that they could take it more seriously than they do. This is my personal view which I believe I am allowed to express.You express this opinion as a representative of this Forum? Since you put this out in the open, please clarify.
I chose to "love" your post, not because I love what you reported, but because I am *that* grateful to you for calling out the entitled affront and politicking in this thread that has happened at cost/on the backs of victims of sexual violence and harassment (majority women, but not exclusively).@Mattdoubleyew let's try to be unbiased in what we write here. For the benefit of forum members outside the UK The Guardian is not a (a left wing grievance-mongering rag), this is to do a disservice to a newspaper that, through investigative journalism, has shone a light on corruption in high places, sometimes at great personal cost.
As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .
A great response! Thank you@Mattdoubleyew let's try to be unbiased in what we write here. For the benefit of forum members outside the UK The Guardian is not a (a left wing grievance-mongering rag), this is to do a disservice to a newspaper that, through investigative journalism, has shone a light on corruption in high places, sometimes at great personal cost.
As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .
I read this with interest. As a Pilgrim Office volunteer, I have had to escort women to the Civil Guard offices in Santiago to report attempted assaults on the Camino on the way into Santiago. I can verify that the premise of the article is true. There IS a heightened risk of women WALKING ALONE being accosted by male exhibitionists.Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian
Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at riskamp.theguardian.com
Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.
Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm.
Wise adviceI read this with interest. As a Pilgrim Office volunteer, I have had to escort women to the Civil Guard offices in Santiago to report attempted assaults on the Camino on the way into Santiago. I can verify that the premise of the article is true. There IS a heightened risk of women WALKING ALONE being accosted by male exhibitionists.
Without qualifying this further, let me state categorically that this is WRONG on so many levels. Regardless of the sociological issues in play here, there is, and can never be ANY excuse for his antisocial behavior.
All said, I can offer three observations:
1. At least in Spain, if no physical touching has occurred, there is no assault. The crime is a misdemeanor. Prosecuting it is very difficult. Even if a police officer actually observed the actions, the person would receive a summons and a fine.
2. I advise all pilgrims regardless of gender to install Alert Cops on their smart phones. You can get help in English.
3. I noticed that, in all the scenarios described in the story, and of which I have ever dealt with as a volunteer, the woman is always walking alone when accosted. While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.
In my experience, I have always been able to pick up as many "tag along" walking companions as I chose. It is easy. Each night, choose someone who who have observed that day. Approach them, perhaps at a meal or in an accommodation to ask if you can "tag along" with them the next day, today, or tomorrow.
This does NOT mean that you must become their new best friend forever. When you are walking, you just remain close enough to call to one another if something occurs. It could be anything well less than an indecent encounter.
On the other hand, this is also a way to make friends. I always walk my Caminos solo. As a guy, the situation is different. But, as I age, I am reminded that having someone to pick me up when I fall is a good thing. It HAS happened to me.
So, I am now in the habit of seeking "tag along" walking companions as needed.
It is a good concept for so many reasons.
Hope this helps.
Tom
I think there are 2 sides to this issue. Firstly, the absolute right for a woman, or anyone to walk unmolested or hassled anywhere.
Second is reality. Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm. I walked when I was well into my 70's and saw many girls walking very isolated. A couple of times I suggested that female walkers thatgʻ it maybe wiser to walk in earshot or view of others, and got looks that suggested I was weird.
My advice remains, in this day and age given where you are walking, remain in earshot of others.....or risk a weirdo hassling you. It is not right,but it is reality, sadly
I wish I was too. Best wishes for Mrs HTD and hope she has returned to good health.I wish I was articulate enough to use fewer words sometimes.
I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?Women yearn for the day when men no longer tell us "there's two sides" or "it's reality".
No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?
Ouch. I have offended you and I apologise.No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.
I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?
I don't know you well enough to be offended by you. I just wanted to clarify.Ouch. I have offended you and I apologise.
I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?
I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.
We are talking about something very specific...sexual harrassment has nothing to do with a "hassle-free" camino.
The problem with advising women not to walk alone is that it can amount to women not being able to exercise movement at all. If one cannot find a walking companion, or if one wants to travel on a more isolated route (Baztan, Salvador, for example)… then one cannot go at all.I think there are 2 sides to this issue. Firstly, the absolute right for a woman, or anyone to walk unmolested or hassled anywhere.
Second is reality. Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm. I walked when I was well into my 70's and saw many girls walking very isolated. A couple of times I suggested that female walkers thatgʻ it maybe wiser to walk in earshot or view of others, and got looks that suggested I was weird.
My advice remains, in this day and age given where you are walking, remain in earshot of others.....or risk a weirdo hassling you. It is not right,but it is reality, sadly
I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.
That makes sense. Thanks for sharing your take on the word "hassle", gives the post from @Grahammac a whole different perspective. Thank you.I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.
Yes, but there could just be a simple slip of the pen/tongue or auto-correct when the writer meant "harrassment-free" rather than "hassle-free."To use the word "hassle-free" to mean "no sexual harrassment" seems to minimize what the former is. @truenorthpilgrm is right...language does matter.
I have experienced incidents like this more than 7 or 8 times over my caminos, which I walk alone.
This would take all the joy out of my Camino. If I can't walk alone anymore or always would have to organise that another pilgrim walks a couple of 100 metres behind of ahead of me, I would not walk a Camino anymore. I do enjoy some company after arrival or spontaneously walking along with another pilgrim for a couple of kms. But if I can't walk alone and independently anymore, I would lose all interest.3. I noticed that, in all the scenarios described in the story, and of which I have ever dealt with as a volunteer, the woman is always walking alone when accosted. While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.
I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.Then I start to wonder how many women find these kind of harassments so normal that they just don't report them
While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.
Hi, Luka, Yes, it’s sadly true that I have had this happen many times. But remember that I have been walking caminos since 2000, and the official attitude then was much different than it is now. In fact, I confess that the very first few times it happened (coming down from the Alto de Perdón, so imagine, it was less than a week into my first Camino; leaving Mañeru after Puente la Reina) I didn’t even “bother” to report. Since then (outside Logroño; near the TV station at Monte de Gozo; going up a hill near Palas de Rei, I think ) I have always reported and always gotten some kind of positive response. I remember one early incident coming into Los Arcos. The hospitalero had no suggestion for me, and I let it go, but that night decided I really should do something. So the next morning as I was leaving town, I talked to some street cleaners, and I heard from others that later that afternoon there were cops going up and down looking for the guy. In Obradoiro once, the GC took down the license plate that I provided from the incident on Monte Gozo and assured me they would pay a visit to the owner’s family. Since then things have gotten much more regularized and I think pilgrims have easy access to a formal reporting process.I know you walked a tremendous amount of (deserted) Caminos, but is a staggering number... From just one peregrina...
I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.
How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.
Merely to answer your wonder, @ Luka, and not to deride you for the sincere question:You wrote this before and again I find this shocking. I know you walked a tremendous amount of (deserted) Caminos, but is a staggering number... From just one peregrina... Then I start to wonder how many women find these kind of harassments so normal that they just don't report them.
Curiously, I will also say that this has never happened to me on a “deserted” camino. It has happened only on the Francés and the Norte. So nearly all of my experiences with this are before 2010, because since then I have walked routes like the Levante,the Catalán, the Castellano, the Lana, etc etc and though I have been much more alone, and though some of these caminos have stretches that I would describe as remote, I have never had one incident.
Or longer!Interesting. And in a way it also makes sense. If you deliberately want to harrass female pilgrims, an unknown Camino would mean waiting for half a day...
I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.
How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.
This isn't clickbait. These things do happen on the Camino and they aren't ok. It does not make sense to try to downplay them. I experienced a local man exposing himself to me twice (he followed me and appeared on a deserted stretch over an hour after the first time) on the Frances last year. It's an awful thing to experience (and yes, I did call the Civil Guardia once I got to a safe place and, no, they were not helpful) and can rattle a woman's sense of safety on the Camino.let's be cautious with possible clickbait and questionnable media reporting, especially when it comes to The Guardian.
and i am not downplaying the seriousness of sexual assault, or the importance of real or perceived safety for women on the Camino.
however, of the cases cited by The Guardian, one is of a Venezuelan lady whose story was later debunked. obviously The Guardian does not mention this: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...frir-brote-psicotico/0003_201802G22P10991.htm
the other case was the lady raped and held against her will in home. apparently she was invited by a man into a home as tshe was stranded and there were no beds available at the albergues in town. i am NOT blaming her. however, The Guardian provides no context, and we almost believe her agresor jumped out of the bushes in the middle of the Meseta.
It's absolutely no take away lesson.While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.
I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?
How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.
I suspect it’s much higher then reporter.
I’ve done 4 Caminos alone and it was only the 3rd (the Portuguese Central while I was in Portugal this past May) that I encountered what I’ll call lewd behavior. 1) wearing head phones and near a church a man gestured to me the route. I took one pod out and he said something in Portuguese and made several lewd gestures with his hands and tongue.I never let anyone on arms length of me so put my ear pod in, ignored him and kept walking. didn’t call the police because being a 55 year old women, I just rolled my eyes at his stupidity and walked on. 2) same Camino. Walking and noticed a man urinating right on the path. Wasn’t paying close attention until I got closer and noticed his penis was erect which makes it impossible to pee and he was really exposing himself. For this one probably should have called the police bc it didn’t really register what he was doing until I was a bit farther away,
In general, I think that in Spain they have done a better job in patrolling. I noticed patrol cars in random spots and patrolling areas.
Just my experience. In general, I tend to be very vigilant of my surroundings and give men a wide birth as unfortunately women are conditioned to do especially if you have lived in big cities like me.
Never felt unsafe though but I do carry a whistle that is accessible.
I can say that I would rather encounter a bear.
One obvious problem is that we have so normalized men just peeing anywhere they feel like
I mentioned it to my partner, but across us there was a sense of this is just how it is. No criticism of anyone implied but there was a sense of this is how things roll.
The next couple of days I struggled thinking I should just have chased this guy down and turned him in
Yep… exactly. If *that* were not so normal, we would know much more easily that the man with his hands in front of his fly at the side of the trail was up to no good and we could turn back, wait for someone to catch up, alert ops… phone a friend… get outta Dodge…The bear analogy that made the rounds this year did an expert job in exposing why we chose bear over man!
I've encountered numerous male pilgrims on the camino who don't think twice about unzipping and peeing in plain sight.
Women don't need "rescuers", but we do need male allies who can speak up to help to create a culture of "don't even think about it, buddy", as opposed to the current (yet slowly changing) culture of "it's just how it is", "this is reality" or "never walk alone".
Ps. and yet to a forum poll.
Yes, I agree that the authorities are taking pilgrim safety seriously. Recently I was at the unmanned and somewhat isolated albergue in Montamarta on the VDLP. The Civil Guard showed up, and an officer speaking excellent English asked us if all was well, if there had been any problems on the route and stressed they could be contacted any time via the number posted prominently on the wall. On other occasions when walking I saw them passing quite often, often slowing down and giving a friendly wave.I have always been impressed with the presence of the Civil Guard on Caminos I've walked in Spain. I think they do take the safety of pilgrims seriously. This year I walked on the VdlP from Salamanca. I was on my 3rd day when I bumped into a couple of Civil Guard Officers; they were very friendly and asked me in English where I'd come from, where I was going tonight and tomorrow, was I alone (yes), which route was I planning to take when the route split. I showed them I had the Alert Cops app and they were pleased. I was not nervous of walking alone but this was a very pleasant encounter and I knew that they were getting to know who was doing what on a very quiet route.
I am not happy that sometimes there are very unpleasant sexual incidents. However I do not feel that I should stop walking alone on a Camino. Years ago I was exposed to on a path in my home town. I often remember when I walk past the place now, 40 years later. I did report it to the police at the time. As a woman you have to be wary but you have to get on with your life and not be over-frightened either.
Yes! Johnnie has been excellent on this issue, which is very helpful to bringing attention to the problem.You beat me to it!
And good for Johnnie Walker !!
Edit:
There are two articles on this topic in the Guardian today.
This one has Sara Dhooma’s story, previously posted on this forum:
‘I feared for my life’: stories of sexual harassment on the Camino de Santiago
Female pilgrims tell of terrifying aggression, the lingering effects and their cases being far from isolatedwww.theguardian.com
The article doesn't mention 5 women in 5 years. It mentions the 5 who were interviewed. There are no official statistics kept on the sexual harassment and sexual violence on camino. Even with police reports, the statistics for sexual harassment and violence are known to be underreported globally.The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?
Since you are not in the Camigas Facebook group, a group dedicated to women walking camino after the murder of Denise Thiem, you aren't privy to the posts about women's experiences with sexual harassment on camino. The pattern I'm seeing is on the Camino Portguese. In fact, when I walked it two years ago, we heard a loud siren go off on the trail ahead of us. We then saw a woman running past us. It turns out she had a personal alarm that she was able to set off when a man had sexually harassed her ahead of us. I've been looking into the problem and even provided one of the authors of the piece some information about sexual harassment and assault, as I used to teach about it in a Psychology of Women course. One of the problems is that there aren't statistics kept on this. That needs to change. We know from the research that even when reported and statistics are collected, the numbers are below what is actually occurring. This is partly because women feel embarrassed, shamed, and told it's really nothing when they're harassed, so they don't report. You can't rely on women you know who've walked camino to be an adequate sample representing what is going on. Men also need to be allies in the fight against sexual harassment. It is a taboo subject because sexual harassment gets downplayed, denied, and women (and men) who talk about it get shut down either explicitly or subtly. There have been #MeToo movements around the globe now to redress the silencing that happens, but this is relatively recent.I do have my troubles with that article. It paints a picture of the Camino that is very much in conflict of what i experienced and, more importantly, of what seems to be consensus with all the female persons i had contact with. On top of that comes the statement that there is some kind of "Taboo" of talking about it, which i personally think is utter bull'it.
I would also love to have some kind of statistic. Or a proper newspiece, for a start. I am a bit surprised for the Guardian needing to make such a clickbait article, but then, i don't read that regularly. Times might have changed.
THANK YOU FOR THIS AMAZING REPLY! I have taught about these issues in a Psychology of Women course. The willingness to ignore and downplay these issues in general is exhausting. We need allies to step up. There are some on this thread, and I'm thankful for them, but we need more. There shouldn't be anyone questioning whether this is an important issue. Why would the Guardia Civil set up a special task force if it weren't really happening? They wouldn't. They know it's going on.Merely to answer your wonder, @ Luka, and not to deride you for the sincere question:
We know from sexual assault support centres wherever they exist that intimate violence and sexual assault are massively under-reported. We know it from peripheral communicable disease reporting, especially in those with cognitive disabilities, that victims are too afraid to report… that sexual assault is indeed so common (and here I include things like flashing, molestation, and efforts to intimidate through sexual threat) that while it may be true that “not all men” (and men who don’t commit violence need to get behind women who experience it instead of whining about how they aren’t “like those men”)… it’s too many men. It’s also the women who protect them (read Dorothy Allison; see the recent Alice Munro scandal in which she jeopardized her daughter for the sake of appearances… it goes on and on and on and on). And there is far too much approval given (and encouragement) to women to just let it slide, let it roll, not take it too seriously and just move on.
I have not experienced anything truly dangerous on any of 8 caminos, but I did find myself just outside Fromista in my first year with a Spanish man about 15-20 years older than I who would not go away, who tried to get me to go with him to his friend’s house for lunch, and I was only able to shake him when I reached a village with a hard left over the road some KM away from the place with the donkeys. It was unnerving, and I am thankfully not gullible about out of place “generous invitations”.
Those who seek to deflect attention away from these things are, indeed, part of the mechanism that supports general misogyny and quotidian (sexual and not) violence against women.
And to be clear, that’s what we are talking about right now… but I would absolutely have a conversation about the violence that men enact against each other, with mostly very young men paying with their lives. But that’s not what the article was drawing attention to (whether with 100% accuracy or not). In fact, I find it appalling that people are willing to discount the infinite record of assault against women because in very rare instances something gets made up.
I had a student once who claimed to have been in a UN vehicle when it was ambushed in the DCR. The entire story was made up… but that does not mean that UN vehicles and staff are not imperiled in conflict zones; it does not mean that conflict zones do not exist.
Same with the Guardian article.
How can men help stop sexual harassment in general? Here is an article about how men can be allies and help. We know that men also experience sexual harassment, and that's important to acknowledge. However, in terms of the focus on sexual harassment on camino and the replies from some men on this thread, it's important to address how they can support. https://dworakpeck.usc.edu/news/5-things-men-can-do-to-help-end-sexual-harassment-and-assaultWomen walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian
Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at riskamp.theguardian.com
Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.
Ditto!As per usual, when any posts on sexual assault arise on this forum, I'm reminded of the male privilege that exists on here, and it never fails to disappoint me.
Without wanting to enter a debate on what is and what is not clickbait, I believe we can agree that we disagree on this subject for reasons I have already given.This isn't clickbait. These things do happen on the Camino and they aren't ok. It does not make sense to try to downplay them. I experienced a local man exposing himself to me twice (he followed me and appeared on a deserted stretch over an hour after the first time) on the Frances last year. It's an awful thing to experience (and yes, I did call the Civil Guardia once I got to a safe place and, no, they were not helpful) and can rattle a woman's sense of safety on the Camino.
I think the article is saying 5 womenThe article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?
Your takeaway is "9 women in 5 years" whereas the article actually means "9 women interviewed. They walked the Camino recently, within the past 5 years". There's a big difference in your interpretation. No one has any idea of the true number because incidents go unreported.I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?
Without wanting to enter a debate on what is and what is not clickbait, I believe we can agree that we disagree on this subject for reasons I have already given.
Sorry about your experience.
ok, definitely not cool.Perhaps I shouldn’t point this out, but this is not about you.
We should not be offering advice to our sisters and daughters about how to protect themselves against men, we should teach our sons and brothers what's inappropriate and unacceptable towards women. We should make lewd behaviour so abhorrent in society that it is always shunned. Wouldn't that make life easier for everyone?
Well, the fear of dogs bit varies from person to person and not all perceived vicious dogs are vicious dogs. Some may see a dog barking aggressively from a distance as a vicious dog and others see it as just a yappy dog doing what dogs do. Warn people to stay away.I am actually more scared of dogs.
Why don't they write about that?
I wish you every gentleness in all your remaining days.Having been molested (9), raped (16) and attacked (18), learning to fight back was all there was available to me in the 70s & 80s.
There were a number of other incidents that I’m unwilling to post about here.
I was angry.
I attended some pretty hard core classes, particularly in the 80s.
My hackles rise when I feel threatened by men and perhaps my anger discourages them.
On a more positive note, I hear my 16 year old grandson talking with his friends.
I believe there is a large cohort of that generation who find violence towards girls and women despicable.
Peer group pressure is enormously important.
“Teach your children well …”
You make a fair point. However, in the interests of progressing forward, it might be more productive to make that point without castigating the well-meaning person who made a statement that you thought was misguided.Dogs are not the same at all as humans
This is telling.I've met more peregrinas who told me about having men expose themselves or harass them that have told me about problems with dogs.
Let's leave the dogs out of this discussion now.I've met more peregrinas who told me about having men expose themselves or harass them that have told me about problems with dogs.
You make a fair point. However, in the interests of progressing forward, it might be more productive to make that point without castigating the well-meaning person who made a statement that you thought was misguided.
We need to be able to talk as people with a common goal, without alienating each other.
At the suggestion of a forum member yesterday, I submitted a comment to The Guardian that questioned some of the statements and choice of vocabulary for consistency with their journalistic standards. I mentioned the case you referred to, and I also gave my opinion that the use of terms like “terrifying” and “endemic” had crossed the line into sensationalism. If you go to the online version of the article now, you will see that they have removed the reference to the allegation that the victim later recanted and have noted that fact at the end of the article.As i mentioned above, the article states, at least in one case, a fact that is not true
Perfectly explained. Thanks.I think that there is a huge disconnect between those who focus on this issue primarily as one of a woman’s right to be free from harassment and those who see it as an issue of how to best cope with the fact that whether we like it or not women are subject to harassment and sexual aggression. Having a right and being able to freely exercise that right without fear or mishap are two very different things. I think we can be aspirational about the right and still recognize that reality might dictate caution in the exercise of that right.
If I were advising a woman who came to my town and asked me about walking in certain campus neighborhoods alone late at night, I would tell her not to do it. There are too many instances of all sorts of sexual predation. I would tell her that she should walk with a male. If I thought that the Camino had a similarly dangerous section, I would tell her the same. I don’t think that this means that I am blaming the victim, or excusing male behavior, or somehow trying to tell her to get used to this reality and accept it as her fate. I am telling her that I think it is unsafe for her to walk alone at this one point at this particular time. I think that is the only responsible thing to do and I think that the gender of the person telling her that is irrelevant to the message.
Years ago, on the Vdlp there were reports of bandits with knives in between Sevilla and Camas. The reports were frequent enough and consistent enough to draw the inference that it was the same person/people. At that time, I told women that I thought it was foolish to walk without a male through that section. When the situation was resolved pursuant to an arrest, that advice changed.
I share the opinion that the remedy here is not to tell women NOT to walk alone. I walk alone, and can’t imagine the Camino otherwise, but I am cognizant of the risks I am taking. Based on all of the statistics, reporting, and anecdotes, I have concluded that the risks to my safety are minimal, and that they are risks I am willing to take. If I thought the risks were substantial, I would not walk alone and I would tell other women how I reached my conclusion and what I proposed to do about it. There are only two choices - to walk alone or to not walk alone.
My quibble with The Guardian article is that I think it has provided an exaggerated view of that risk and may create what is, imho, a disproportionate fear about sexual aggression on the Camino. But if I thought The Guardian were correct in its assertion about there being an endemic of sexual assault on the Camino, I would join with those who advise that women not walk alone.
A few things -- I take as given that there is a disconnect. That's fine -- we can challenge assumptions at work in various POVs.If I were advising a woman who came to my town and asked me about walking in certain campus neighborhoods alone late at night, I would tell her not to do it. There are too many instances of all sorts of sexual predation. I would tell her that she should walk with a male. If I thought that the Camino had a similarly dangerous section, I would tell her the same. I don’t think that this means that I am blaming the victim, or excusing male behavior, or somehow trying to tell her to get used to this reality and accept it as her fate. I am telling her that I think it is unsafe for her to walk alone at this one point at this particular time. I think that is the only responsible thing to do and I think that the gender of the person telling her that is irrelevant to the message.
I did not suggest that. I merely said that if I knew that a young woman was planning to walk through a particular area of campus at a particular time of night, I would tell her she should walk with a male companion.But I simply cannot tell women to avoid campus.
I cannot tell a young woman to avoid a particular area... I guess that's the problem Just because something happened before in one area, does not mean it will happen again in that area, or won't happen in another. So being selective about it doesn't work.I did not suggest that. I merely said that if I knew that a young woman was planning to walk through a particular area of campus at a particular time of night, I would tell her she should walk with a male companion.
Your response shows clearly the frustration and anger you rightly feel because it is wrong and unfair that women have to endure this. I get that, but I don’t see how that translates into an action plan for how to deal with today's reality.
If you agree with The Guardian and think that sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying, endemic, and underreported, what advice would you give to a female pilgrim who asks whether you think it’s a good idea to walk alone?
If you agree with *** ******** and think that sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying, endemic, and underreported, what advice would you give to a female pilgrim who asks whether you think it’s a good idea to walk alone?
Seriously??The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?
Having been assaulted in Santiago on October 22, 2024, my blood is boiling reading comments that question the veracity of the reporting in the article published by The Guardian. I can't even make myself read all of them. Just to let you know, the kinds of denials/doubts/minimizing I've read here compound the trauma we are dealing with.
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