Sexual harassment on Camino routes

[henrythedog]

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

 

[Bradypus]

No paywall - a pop-up window asking for donations can be dismissed without any payments.

 

[chinacat]

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

You beat me to it!

And good for Johnnie Walker !!

Edit:
There are two articles on this topic in the Guardian today.

This one has Sara Dhooma’s story, previously posted on this forum:

‘I feared for my life’: stories of sexual harassment on the Camino de Santiago

Female pilgrims tell of terrifying aggression, the lingering effects and their cases being far from isolated

www.theguardian.com

 

[MikeJS]

The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

and i am not downplaying the seriousness of sexual assault, or the importance of real or perceived safety for women on the Camino.

however, of the cases cited by The Guardian, one is of a Venezuelan lady whose story was later debunked. obviously The Guardian does not mention this: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...frir-brote-psicotico/0003_201802G22P10991.htm

the other case was the lady raped and held against her will in home. apparently she was invited by a man into a home as tshe was stranded and there were no beds available at the albergues in town. i am NOT blaming her. however, The Guardian provides no context, and we almost believe her agresor jumped out of the bushes in the middle of the Meseta.

 

[MinaKamina]

A handful of incidents along the route have made headlines in recent years. In 2018, a 50-year-old Venezuelan woman was allegedly kidnapped and raped by two men as she walked through north-western Spain.

Note the term 'allegedly'. One would almost miss it. It has some relevance, since this did not happen. The woman admitted she made it all up.
(It later turned out that the woman had made the same claim earlier near Fátima.)


Thread here:
https://www.caminodesantiago.me/com...d-that-this-did-not-happen.52793/#post-584356

 

[JustOneGuy]

The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?

I do not know where you got these figures. This is what I read in the article "Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment"

Of the nine women who spoke to the Guardian, six reported the incidents to police. In only one case was the perpetrator located and prosecuted.

9 women interviewed. Possibly representative of a much larger number of harrassments on the camino. We all need to talk about this, and we also need to look around and try to find policies to help women doing the camino together.

I live in Spain, and I have to say that the current govrnment takes the issue of sexual harrassment very seriously but the number of reported aggressions, rapes and women killed by men they live with or have a relation with is still shocking.

 

[MikeJS]

I do not know where you got these figures. This is what I read in the article:

9 people interviewed. Possibly representative of a much larger number of harrassments on the camino. We all need to talk about this, and we also need to look around and try to find policies to help women doing the camino together.

I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?

 

[woody66]

I have always enjoyed watching Sara's videos and her joy of Camino; the bridge dancing queen!
A long time ago i stumbled across a YouTube video of her retelling the events of that day and what happened to her!
For the first time i actually witnessed the devastating affect this had on Sara ; i cried to see such a joyous soul suffering so much fear and anguish.
But it's mirrored so many times by women day in day out around the World!
Will it stop no; even if all the efforts possible are thrown at it!

Would i let my daughter walk Camino yes; because i think the World outside of Camino has more to fear danger

 

[filly]

… and when my friend was attacked in an attempted rape and robbed all those years ago on a Sunday morning in Santarem, members of this Forum came to her assistance and saw her safely on her onward way. The Portuguese police were also supportive.

- the two criminals were apprehended

- the criminals had attacked other NON pilgrim women previously

 

[dick bird]

This is a sensitive topic so we will discuss it without venturing into side issues (especially political ones).

The camino should be safe, everywhere should be safe. Women alone should not be subjected to harassment or assault or made to feel that their own behaviour is somehow the cause of what happens to them. Over the last few years the authorities and the police in Spain and Portugal have started to take the issue of sexual harassment and assault a little more seriously but there is a long way to go. They will take it even more seriously if the issue is brought out into the open and talked about.

 

[Anhalter]

I do have my troubles with that article. It paints a picture of the Camino that is very much in conflict of what i experienced and, more importantly, of what seems to be consensus with all the female persons i had contact with. On top of that comes the statement that there is some kind of "Taboo" of talking about it, which i personally think is utter bull'it.
I would also love to have some kind of statistic. Or a proper newspiece, for a start. I am a bit surprised for the Guardian needing to make such a clickbait article, but then, i don't read that regularly. Times might have changed.

 

[SabsP]

" Endemic ". Surely not.

Yes there is ( sexual ) violence against women ( and men and X btw ) but please let us keep it in perspective.
Yes there is an issue in Spanish society regarding intrafamily violence and femicide but it is also important not mixing all kind of data.
There is violence in partnerships.
Then there is assault and rape of random persons.
There is exhibitionism.
Alll are despicable and should be reported to the police.

Then there are the numerous catcallings, whistlings and creepy stares.
If your gutfeeling tells you something is wrong : report it.
I strongly believe the local police does take it seriously.
Alertcops does work.

 

[muddy-mama]

[edit to add this awfulness for scale -in London, a rape is reported every hour:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/rape-offences-figures-london-metropolitan-police-b1183106.html ]

Nevertheless, I will say I’d already agreed with one of my daughters wanting to walk the coastal alone next year that it’d be prudent to do it as a pair - sadly, that’s just the way the world is.

I had two messages this morning, with the attachment, from people worried about me walking alone. While this needs to be taken seriously the Camino is still a safe place compared with the rest of the world. The alert cops app, police patrols, both in cars and on foot with police actually talking to pilgrims (could you imagine that happening in the UK) are all a step forward.
While rape is less frequent in my city there are at least 2 a week make the newspaper and flashing happens often. Don't be put off by these articles.
Will I walk the Camino alone again of course I will. I am already planning for next year

 

[SabsP]

I do have my troubles with that article. It paints a picture of the Camino that is very much in conflict of what i experienced and, more importantly, of what seems to be consensus with all the female persons i had contact with. On top of that comes the statement that there is some kind of "Taboo" of talking about it, which i personally think is utter bull'it.
I would also love to have some kind of statistic. Or a proper newspiece, for a start. I am a bit surprised for the Guardian needing to make such a clickbait article, but then, i don't read that regularly. Times might have changed.

This might be a good start.
Spanish national institute for the Statistics.

Press Release: Conviction Statistics: Adults / Minors. Year 2023.

Publication date: 2024-09-24 11:00:00.0

ine.es

 

[MinaKamina]

This is a sensitive topic so we will discuss it without venturing into side issues (especially political ones).

The camino should be safe, everywhere should be safe. Women alone should not be subjected to harassment or assault or made to feel that their own behaviour is somehow the cause of what happens to them. Over the last few years the authorities and the police in Spain and Portugal have started to take the issue of sexual harassment and assault a little more seriously but there is a long way to go. They will take it even more seriously if the issue is brought out into the open and talked about.

You are suggesting that the authorities in Spain and Portugal do not take the issue of sexual harassment seriously? They have a long way to go in comparison to which countries?

You express this opinion as a representative of this Forum? Since you put this out in the open, please clarify.

 

[SEB2]

As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .

 

[dick bird]

You are suggesting that the authorities in Spain and Portugal do not take the issue of sexual harassment seriously? They have a long way to go in comparison to which countries?

You express this opinion as a representative of this Forum? Since you put this out in the open, please clarify.

I am stating that the authorities in Spain and Portugal are taking this issue more seriously than they used to but that they could take it more seriously than they do. This is my personal view which I believe I am allowed to express.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

@Mattdoubleyew let's try to be unbiased in what we write here. For the benefit of forum members outside the UK The Guardian is not a (a left wing grievance-mongering rag), this is to do a disservice to a newspaper that, through investigative journalism, has shone a light on corruption in high places, sometimes at great personal cost.

As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .

I chose to "love" your post, not because I love what you reported, but because I am *that* grateful to you for calling out the entitled affront and politicking in this thread that has happened at cost/on the backs of victims of sexual violence and harassment (majority women, but not exclusively).
I cannot put any of it any better than you have, and want only to make this required, repeat reading. Sadly, *some men* (and women who are their apologists) will always be more concerned about their own feelings of affront than about preventing real harm and danger.

 

[peregrina2000]

The topic of sexual harrassment and violence on the Camino has been discussed many times, but it’s done in the context of a woman actually reporting on her experience. This is the first time I can remember having a mainstream press article as the catalyst. That adds another layer of complexity, because now we have to sort out our feelings about the newspaper, the reporters, the writing, the research, etc etc.

I know that sexual violence and harrassment are problems everywhere, not just on the Camino, and shining a light on it anywhere is a public service, imho. But for me, for this story to describe an “alleged” kidnapping and raping as one of the three really terrifying incidents it reports on, when in fact the person reporting it admitted that it did not happen, casts a pall on the whole article and puts it into the category of sensationalism and fear mongering.

I have experienced incidents like this more than 7 or 8 times over my caminos, which I walk alone. I have seen a tremendous about-face in terms of the official reponse to a report of an incident and the resources that the Guardia Civil and other institutions pour into keeping the Camino safe for women. Yes, sadly, there are still incidents, but I think we should recognize the efforts that have been made and the support available to women on the camino if something like this should happen.

I have always said that I would never recommend that a fearful woman set out alone on a camino because if you can’t get over the fear, whether it’s rational or not, you will not thrive on the camino. I think this article will spread that fear, which is unfortunate, because walking a solo camino is the best way I know to rely on yourself and test your own ability to be an independent and self-sufficient person.

 

[isobelmtl]

@Mattdoubleyew let's try to be unbiased in what we write here. For the benefit of forum members outside the UK The Guardian is not a (a left wing grievance-mongering rag), this is to do a disservice to a newspaper that, through investigative journalism, has shone a light on corruption in high places, sometimes at great personal cost.

As a woman who was sexually assaulted on the Camino back in 2015 by the same elderly man who did the same to several other peregrinas, including one with whom I had walked but finally met again in SdC - in her case she told me that he had also violently pushed her to the ground when she resisted his forceful advances- this was in the very public plaza in Castrojeriz. He was subsequently charged and punished after the cumulation of assaults became known through this forum. A peregrina I met who had walked several times was sitting on a wall in a city on the CF when a man grabbed her breast. Most of these, what I will term 'micro sexual assaults', go unreported so the figures are misleading as to what peregrinas encounter (and have to decide how to deal with) while walking to SdC. Every time a male member of the forum posts a response that appears to minimise these incidents it can seem like getting your defense in first rather than seeing it from a woman's point of view. We don't need to be told that most men are decent, trustworthy and good walking companions who wouldn't dream of causing distress or harm to peregrinas - how else could we feel safe sleeping adjacent to a complete stranger of the opposite sex, as is sometimes the case with bed arrangements at the large albergue at O Cereibro - many of us have fortunate to have been raised by loving fathers and have strong but gentle men in our extended families. Dissing the newspaper that printed the articles and attempts to minimise the seriousness or frequency of sexual assualts or the the overall concerns are not helpful. Rather it feels a reactive response as if a button has been pressed. Please take on board that the problem is much greater than the statistics quoted by some forum members may indicate but it doesn't mean women will stop walking, most minor assaults will continue to go unreported for fear of the disruption to the journey to SdC that might ensue with the (quite necessary) bureaucracy involved in taking it further with the police .

A great response! Thank you

 

[davejsy]

Of course, nothing in this respect should be downplayed in the same respect that nothing should be over-sensationalised which can be equally harmful and is unfortunately the case here. But that wouldn't sell papers (or whatever the modern internet theme for this saying is).

Understandably articles like this could be hugely worrying for people embarking on a Camino and their families. But it shouldn't be the case, and you could even go as far as arguing the Camino (CF at least given the popularity) by its very nature is safer than what greets most people the moment they step out of their front door on a daily basis.

 

[t2andreo]

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

I read this with interest. As a Pilgrim Office volunteer, I have had to escort women to the Civil Guard offices in Santiago to report attempted assaults on the Camino on the way into Santiago. I can verify that the premise of the article is true. There IS a heightened risk of women WALKING ALONE being accosted by male exhibitionists.

Without qualifying this further, let me state categorically that this is WRONG on so many levels. Regardless of the sociological issues in play here, there is, and can never be ANY excuse for his antisocial behavior.

All said, I can offer three observations:

1. At least in Spain, if no physical touching has occurred, there is no assault. The crime is a misdemeanor. Prosecuting it is very difficult. Even if a police officer actually observed the actions, the person would receive a summons and a fine.

2. I advise all pilgrims regardless of gender to install Alert Cops on their smart phones. You can get help in English.

3. I noticed that, in all the scenarios described in the story, and of which I have ever dealt with as a volunteer, the woman is always walking alone when accosted. While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.

In my experience, I have always been able to pick up as many "tag along" walking companions as I chose. It is easy. Each night, choose someone who who have observed that day. Approach them, perhaps at a meal or in an accommodation to ask if you can "tag along" with them the next day, today, or tomorrow.

This does NOT mean that you must become their new best friend forever. When you are walking, you just remain close enough to call to one another if something occurs. It could be anything well less than an indecent encounter.

On the other hand, this is also a way to make friends. I always walk my Caminos solo. As a guy, the situation is different. But, as I age, I am reminded that having someone to pick me up when I fall is a good thing. It HAS happened to me.

So, I am now in the habit of seeking "tag along" walking companions as needed.

It is a good concept for so many reasons.

Hope this helps.

Tom

 

[Grahammac]

I think there are 2 sides to this issue. Firstly, the absolute right for a woman, or anyone to walk unmolested or hassled anywhere.
Second is reality. Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm. I walked when I was well into my 70's and saw many girls walking very isolated. A couple of times I suggested that female walkers thatgʻ it maybe wiser to walk in earshot or view of others, and got looks that suggested I was weird.
My advice remains, in this day and age given where you are walking, remain in earshot of others.....or risk a weirdo hassling you. It is not right,but it is reality, sadly

 

[SabsP]

Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm.

Wow! Is this really how you think about Spain? A country that has one of the most liberal laws regarding human rights!
There might be some more conservative thinking people living in more rural areas but please do not assume they are imbeciles.

 

[Grahammac]

I read this with interest. As a Pilgrim Office volunteer, I have had to escort women to the Civil Guard offices in Santiago to report attempted assaults on the Camino on the way into Santiago. I can verify that the premise of the article is true. There IS a heightened risk of women WALKING ALONE being accosted by male exhibitionists.

Without qualifying this further, let me state categorically that this is WRONG on so many levels. Regardless of the sociological issues in play here, there is, and can never be ANY excuse for his antisocial behavior.

All said, I can offer three observations:

1. At least in Spain, if no physical touching has occurred, there is no assault. The crime is a misdemeanor. Prosecuting it is very difficult. Even if a police officer actually observed the actions, the person would receive a summons and a fine.

2. I advise all pilgrims regardless of gender to install Alert Cops on their smart phones. You can get help in English.

3. I noticed that, in all the scenarios described in the story, and of which I have ever dealt with as a volunteer, the woman is always walking alone when accosted. While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.

In my experience, I have always been able to pick up as many "tag along" walking companions as I chose. It is easy. Each night, choose someone who who have observed that day. Approach them, perhaps at a meal or in an accommodation to ask if you can "tag along" with them the next day, today, or tomorrow.

This does NOT mean that you must become their new best friend forever. When you are walking, you just remain close enough to call to one another if something occurs. It could be anything well less than an indecent encounter.

On the other hand, this is also a way to make friends. I always walk my Caminos solo. As a guy, the situation is different. But, as I age, I am reminded that having someone to pick me up when I fall is a good thing. It HAS happened to me.

So, I am now in the habit of seeking "tag along" walking companions as needed.

It is a good concept for so many reasons.

Hope this helps.

Tom

Wise advice

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

As per usual, when any posts on sexual assault arise on this forum, I'm reminded of the male privilege that exists on here, and it never fails to disappoint me.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I think there are 2 sides to this issue. Firstly, the absolute right for a woman, or anyone to walk unmolested or hassled anywhere.
Second is reality. Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm. I walked when I was well into my 70's and saw many girls walking very isolated. A couple of times I suggested that female walkers thatgʻ it maybe wiser to walk in earshot or view of others, and got looks that suggested I was weird.
My advice remains, in this day and age given where you are walking, remain in earshot of others.....or risk a weirdo hassling you. It is not right,but it is reality, sadly

Women yearn for the day when men no longer tell us "there's two sides" or "it's reality".

 

[SabsP]

Women yearn for the day when men no longer tell us "there's two sides" or "it's reality".

Exactly.
Found this chart and it is so appropiate.

 

[henrythedog]

Other than flagging up the existence of the article I don’t feel that I have any right, or qualification to offer a female advice on how to manage the issue of risk. Mrs HtD reminds me on a regular basis that my role is to carry things and not get in the way and my perception of a risky situation is inevitably innately different to hers.

I wish I was articulate enough to use fewer words sometimes.

 

[roving_rufus]

I think the original article was somewhat sloppy journalism, including poor research. I often read the Guardian, especially as a student, so I have no issue with the paper but felt this was not a great article.

But the commentary here?
Yes incidents happen on the camino - and downloading alertcops and knowing how to contact police & guarda civil are wise precautions - but tell women not to walk alone???
Personally, I found when I reported in Spain even back in 2012 an incident it was taken seriously by the police, even if charges due to the offence were minimal. Even last year when I accidentally hit a button on the alertcops walking in winter - the police immediately rang back to check and even though I said I was fine, and even if it was New Year's Day, in under 20 minutes the Guardia Civil did a drive by to check in person.
Only once due to a specific warning to all pilgrims of issues of violence and theft given by local authorities in one specific town on the CP just on a small section leaving town did I heed advice to not walk alone- though equally so did the 2 other solo walkers I teamed up with who happened to be male! (But the culprits were later caught.)

But I really need to stop reading threads like these because it just makes me angry to hear some of the responses

 

[SEB2]

I wish I was articulate enough to use fewer words sometimes.

I wish I was too. Best wishes for Mrs HTD and hope she has returned to good health.

 

[Grahammac]

Women yearn for the day when men no longer tell us "there's two sides" or "it's reality".

I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?

 

[Dani7]

I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?

No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.

We are talking about something very specific...sexual harrassment has nothing to do with a "hassle-free" camino.

 

[Grahammac]

No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.

Ouch. I have offended you and I apologise.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?

YOU will also be joining that fight I hope, by helping change said "reality" you spoke of earlier.

Those weird looks women shot you on the camino were right on, I have to say. Hope you take the time to reflect on that.

 

[Dani7]

Ouch. I have offended you and I apologise.

I don't know you well enough to be offended by you. I just wanted to clarify.

 

[chinacat]

When I first read this, this morning, it was Johnnie Walker’s comments that seemed to ‘ground’ the issues. His response was even-handed.

He was quoted:

“Johnnie Walker, one of the admins behind the Camino de Santiago All Routes Group, a social media forum that counts more than 450,000 members, said there had long been frustration over the lack of statistics, even as efforts to combat these incidents had been stepped up.
“As the number of pilgrims has grown, so have reports of men exposing themselves to pilgrims,” he said. “In response the Guardia Civil has stepped up patrols on a number of routes.”
His forum has long advised pilgrims in Spain to download the AlertCops app, which allows pilgrims to contact police directly. “There’s always the balance to be struck between warning women and causing alarm,” he said. “However, a few of us feel that this issue now needs to be addressed more forcibly and coherently across the country.””


(and btw, @henrythedog & @SEB2, you are both very articulate in your posts on here.)

 

[trecile]

I agree. You will keep fighting until that happens, everyone understands, but we are talking about a hassle- free Camino now, aren't we?

No...we are NOT talking about a hassle-free camino. This thread is NOT talking about this at all.

We are talking about something very specific...sexual harrassment has nothing to do with a "hassle-free" camino.

I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I think there are 2 sides to this issue. Firstly, the absolute right for a woman, or anyone to walk unmolested or hassled anywhere.
Second is reality. Some of the areas that you walk through are remote and a part of the population is still living as though it is 1850 and human rights were not yet the norm. I walked when I was well into my 70's and saw many girls walking very isolated. A couple of times I suggested that female walkers thatgʻ it maybe wiser to walk in earshot or view of others, and got looks that suggested I was weird.
My advice remains, in this day and age given where you are walking, remain in earshot of others.....or risk a weirdo hassling you. It is not right,but it is reality, sadly

The problem with advising women not to walk alone is that it can amount to women not being able to exercise movement at all. If one cannot find a walking companion, or if one wants to travel on a more isolated route (Baztan, Salvador, for example)… then one cannot go at all.
This is why we ask that instead of telling daughters to stay home, or only travel with an escort of some kind, we ask that parents teach their sons not to be abusers of any kind. Unfortunately, the response, over and over and over is some version of: No. Women need to constrain their lives. Men can do whatever they want.
One may say, “But reality is that women are vulnerable…” but this turns the attention to women being responsible for not being assaulted rather than toward the responsibility of men not to be assailants.
I learned while looking for my first apartment that *any* man can be dangerous, even the one your co-worker has assured you was ‘safe’. Should I have stayed living at home forever to be safe? How about the nice private school boy who was my co-worker in a different setting and offered to drive me home at the end of a shift as my family had only one car and my father needed it? Should I not have had the job that paid my tuition? How about the co-worker who left a grotesque and explicit message on my office voicemail at a professional job I held during grad school? How ought I to have prevented *that*??
Where does “Protect yourselves” ever end??? It gets weird looks because it is blaming victims for being in the wrong place in a world in which no place is the right place.

 

[CarolamS]

I have always been impressed with the presence of the Civil Guard on Caminos I've walked in Spain. I think they do take the safety of pilgrims seriously. This year I walked on the VdlP from Salamanca. I was on my 3rd day when I bumped into a couple of Civil Guard Officers; they were very friendly and asked me in English where I'd come from, where I was going tonight and tomorrow, was I alone (yes), which route was I planning to take when the route split. I showed them I had the Alert Cops app and they were pleased. I was not nervous of walking alone but this was a very pleasant encounter and I knew that they were getting to know who was doing what on a very quiet route.

I am not happy that sometimes there are very unpleasant sexual incidents. However I do not feel that I should stop walking alone on a Camino. Years ago I was exposed to on a path in my home town. I often remember when I walk past the place now, 40 years later. I did report it to the police at the time. As a woman you have to be wary but you have to get on with your life and not be over-frightened either.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.

Language does matter.

 

[Bob Calver]

Anything that makes women feel less safe - on the Camino- or anywhere else has to be deplored and condemned. We know figures can be used in different ways and many of us agree that the Way is generally safe for all pilgrims. But as a man I am aware that is easy for me to say

 

[Dani7]

I took the word "hassle" in @Grahammac's post in the sense of women being "hassled" by men on the Camino in many ways - from unwanted flirting to assault.

That makes sense. Thanks for sharing your take on the word "hassle", gives the post from @Grahammac a whole different perspective. Thank you.

Needed to add a PS: To use the word "hassle-free" to mean "no sexual harrassment" seems to minimize what the former is. @truenorthpilgrm is right...language does matter.

 

[C clearly]

To use the word "hassle-free" to mean "no sexual harrassment" seems to minimize what the former is. @truenorthpilgrm is right...language does matter.

Yes, but there could just be a simple slip of the pen/tongue or auto-correct when the writer meant "harrassment-free" rather than "hassle-free."

 

[Luka]

I have experienced incidents like this more than 7 or 8 times over my caminos, which I walk alone.

You wrote this before and again I find this shocking. I know you walked a tremendous amount of (deserted) Caminos, but it is a staggering number... From just one peregrina... Then I start to wonder how many women find these kind of harassments so normal that they just don't report them.

 

[Luka]

3. I noticed that, in all the scenarios described in the story, and of which I have ever dealt with as a volunteer, the woman is always walking alone when accosted. While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.

This would take all the joy out of my Camino. If I can't walk alone anymore or always would have to organise that another pilgrim walks a couple of 100 metres behind of ahead of me, I would not walk a Camino anymore. I do enjoy some company after arrival or spontaneously walking along with another pilgrim for a couple of kms. But if I can't walk alone and independently anymore, I would lose all interest.

 

[VNwalking]

Then I start to wonder how many women find these kind of harassments so normal that they just don't report them

I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.

How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.

Sigh...no, that is not the takeaway lesson.

 

[peregrina2000]

I know you walked a tremendous amount of (deserted) Caminos, but is a staggering number... From just one peregrina...

Hi, Luka, Yes, it’s sadly true that I have had this happen many times. But remember that I have been walking caminos since 2000, and the official attitude then was much different than it is now. In fact, I confess that the very first few times it happened (coming down from the Alto de Perdón, so imagine, it was less than a week into my first Camino; leaving Mañeru after Puente la Reina) I didn’t even “bother” to report. Since then (outside Logroño; near the TV station at Monte de Gozo; going up a hill near Palas de Rei, I think ) I have always reported and always gotten some kind of positive response. I remember one early incident coming into Los Arcos. The hospitalero had no suggestion for me, and I let it go, but that night decided I really should do something. So the next morning as I was leaving town, I talked to some street cleaners, and I heard from others that later that afternoon there were cops going up and down looking for the guy. In Obradoiro once, the GC took down the license plate that I provided from the incident on Monte Gozo and assured me they would pay a visit to the owner’s family. Since then things have gotten much more regularized and I think pilgrims have easy access to a formal reporting process.

Curiously, I will also say that this has never happened to me on a “deserted” camino. It has happened only on the Francés and the Norte. So nearly all of my experiences with this are before 2010, because since then I have walked routes like the Levante,the Catalán, the Castellano, the Lana, etc etc and though I have been much more alone, and though some of these caminos have stretches that I would describe as remote, I have never had one incident.

All this to say once again that I hope that whatever response this article produces in the reader, she will always report when something like this happens.

 

[SabsP]

I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.

How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.

I did not report one particular incident either although my gutfeeling told me the harrassment was real and I should have gone further with it, especially when I heard later that four other peregrinas experienced the same.
One of them did make an official complaint and there was a courthearing.

Btw no fellow male pilgrim could have " saved" me in this case seeing it happened in a private hostal by one of the owners.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

You wrote this before and again I find this shocking. I know you walked a tremendous amount of (deserted) Caminos, but is a staggering number... From just one peregrina... Then I start to wonder how many women find these kind of harassments so normal that they just don't report them.

Merely to answer your wonder, @ Luka, and not to deride you for the sincere question:

We know from sexual assault support centres wherever they exist that intimate violence and sexual assault are massively under-reported. We know it from peripheral communicable disease reporting, especially in those with cognitive disabilities, that victims are too afraid to report… that sexual assault is indeed so common (and here I include things like flashing, molestation, and efforts to intimidate through sexual threat) that while it may be true that “not all men” (and men who don’t commit violence need to get behind women who experience it instead of whining about how they aren’t “like those men”)… it’s too many men. It’s also the women who protect them (read Dorothy Allison; see the recent Alice Munro scandal in which she jeopardized her daughter for the sake of appearances… it goes on and on and on and on). And there is far too much approval given (and encouragement) to women to just let it slide, let it roll, not take it too seriously and just move on.

I have not experienced anything truly dangerous on any of 8 caminos, but I did find myself just outside Fromista in my first year with a Spanish man about 15-20 years older than I who would not go away, who tried to get me to go with him to his friend’s house for lunch, and I was only able to shake him when I reached a village with a hard left over the road some KM away from the place with the donkeys. It was unnerving, and I am thankfully not gullible about out of place “generous invitations”.
Those who seek to deflect attention away from these things are, indeed, part of the mechanism that supports general misogyny and quotidian (sexual and not) violence against women.

And to be clear, that’s what we are talking about right now… but I would absolutely have a conversation about the violence that men enact against each other, with mostly very young men paying with their lives. But that’s not what the article was drawing attention to (whether with 100% accuracy or not). In fact, I find it appalling that people are willing to discount the infinite record of assault against women because in very rare instances something gets made up.

I had a student once who claimed to have been in a UN vehicle when it was ambushed in the DCR. The entire story was made up… but that does not mean that UN vehicles and staff are not imperiled in conflict zones; it does not mean that conflict zones do not exist.

Same with the Guardian article.

 

[Luka]

Curiously, I will also say that this has never happened to me on a “deserted” camino. It has happened only on the Francés and the Norte. So nearly all of my experiences with this are before 2010, because since then I have walked routes like the Levante,the Catalán, the Castellano, the Lana, etc etc and though I have been much more alone, and though some of these caminos have stretches that I would describe as remote, I have never had one incident.

Interesting. And in a way it also makes sense. If you deliberately want to harrass female pilgrims, an unknown Camino would mean waiting for half a day...

 

[trecile]

Interesting. And in a way it also makes sense. If you deliberately want to harrass female pilgrims, an unknown Camino would mean waiting for half a day...

Or longer!

 

[Del1969]

I didn't report the 2 incidents I experienced on my 2015 camino - one of which was unnerving, the other simply gross (many of us were kissed by the codger in Castrojerez, right?) I know better now, and fortunately nothing's happened since to report.

How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.

I suspect it’s much higher then reporter.

I’ve done 4 Caminos alone and it was only the 3rd (the Portuguese Central while I was in Portugal this past May) that I encountered what I’ll call lewd behavior. 1) wearing head phones and near a church a man gestured to me the route. I took one pod out and he said something in Portuguese and made several lewd gestures with his hands and tongue.I never let anyone on arms length of me so put my ear pod in, ignored him and kept walking. didn’t call the police because being a 55 year old women, I just rolled my eyes at his stupidity and walked on. 2) same Camino. Walking and noticed a man urinating right on the path. Wasn’t paying close attention until I got closer and noticed his penis was erect which makes it impossible to pee and he was really exposing himself. For this one probably should have called the police bc it didn’t really register what he was doing until I was a bit farther away,

In general, I think that in Spain they have done a better job in patrolling. I noticed patrol cars in random spots and patrolling areas.

Just my experience. In general, I tend to be very vigilant of my surroundings and give men a wide birth as unfortunately women are conditioned to do especially if you have lived in big cities like me.

Never felt unsafe though but I do carry a whistle that is accessible.

 

[happypilgrim]

let's be cautious with possible clickbait and questionnable media reporting, especially when it comes to The Guardian.

and i am not downplaying the seriousness of sexual assault, or the importance of real or perceived safety for women on the Camino.

however, of the cases cited by The Guardian, one is of a Venezuelan lady whose story was later debunked. obviously The Guardian does not mention this: https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notic...frir-brote-psicotico/0003_201802G22P10991.htm

the other case was the lady raped and held against her will in home. apparently she was invited by a man into a home as tshe was stranded and there were no beds available at the albergues in town. i am NOT blaming her. however, The Guardian provides no context, and we almost believe her agresor jumped out of the bushes in the middle of the Meseta.

This isn't clickbait. These things do happen on the Camino and they aren't ok. It does not make sense to try to downplay them. I experienced a local man exposing himself to me twice (he followed me and appeared on a deserted stretch over an hour after the first time) on the Frances last year. It's an awful thing to experience (and yes, I did call the Civil Guardia once I got to a safe place and, no, they were not helpful) and can rattle a woman's sense of safety on the Camino.

 

[chinacat]

In my 20s, 30s & 40s I took various self-defence classes, in order to feel a bit more resilient when it came to my personal safety.

This might be another reason to carry the lightest possible pack
(easier to run, which is always best if possible, and for ease of manoeuvre in fighting back.)

I can attest to a sense of satisfaction at having taken the wind out of the sails of a would-be attacker.

But discretion is vitally important … pick your battles.
And have Alert Cops ready to hand!

 

[Peter Fransiscus]

While each pilgrim does their own Camino, in the manner they choose to, perhaps the takeaway lesson from this article should be to NOT walk alone whenever possible.

It's absolutely no take away lesson.

 

[Robo]

I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?

They only 'interviewed' nine..........for the article.
We all know the numbers are way higher, merely from reports here.......

 

[lalaone]

How many of us have dealt with stuff like this and just blew it off as the way things are? Maybe we need a poll.

Great idea - I think a well-done poll could be very helpful
It makes me sad to think it would probably be close to 100% ...

(Case in point: I thought the guy outside Castrojeriz was just me!)

While I'd never follow or endorse the advice to eschew walking alone as a female, from what I read in the more controversial posts here, I discern a good heart. I appreciate the support and arguments offered by everyone in this thread, including some very valuable questions and push-back.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I suspect it’s much higher then reporter.

I’ve done 4 Caminos alone and it was only the 3rd (the Portuguese Central while I was in Portugal this past May) that I encountered what I’ll call lewd behavior. 1) wearing head phones and near a church a man gestured to me the route. I took one pod out and he said something in Portuguese and made several lewd gestures with his hands and tongue.I never let anyone on arms length of me so put my ear pod in, ignored him and kept walking. didn’t call the police because being a 55 year old women, I just rolled my eyes at his stupidity and walked on. 2) same Camino. Walking and noticed a man urinating right on the path. Wasn’t paying close attention until I got closer and noticed his penis was erect which makes it impossible to pee and he was really exposing himself. For this one probably should have called the police bc it didn’t really register what he was doing until I was a bit farther away,

In general, I think that in Spain they have done a better job in patrolling. I noticed patrol cars in random spots and patrolling areas.

Just my experience. In general, I tend to be very vigilant of my surroundings and give men a wide birth as unfortunately women are conditioned to do especially if you have lived in big cities like me.

Never felt unsafe though but I do carry a whistle that is accessible.

Having encountered both bears (regularly in the woods and on the rail trail that is now a multi-use trail near my home) and strange men in the woods (about 6 k away from Trinidade de Arre this past summer owing off the Baztan)… I can say that I would rather encounter a bear.

So many men have no clue what it is like to have to always be thinking about how to keep a safe distance from that dude (who is not, in fact, just peeing). One obvious problem is that we have so normalized men just peeing anywhere they feel like after a night of — or during a night of — bar-hopping, that “having the equipment out” does not automatically register as dangerous. I completely understand how it took you until further down the trail to process and recognize what had happened.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I can say that I would rather encounter a bear.

The bear analogy that made the rounds this year did an expert job in exposing why we chose bear over man!

One obvious problem is that we have so normalized men just peeing anywhere they feel like

I've encountered numerous male pilgrims on the camino who don't think twice about unzipping and peeing in plain sight.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

I mentioned it to my partner, but across us there was a sense of this is just how it is. No criticism of anyone implied but there was a sense of this is how things roll.

The next couple of days I struggled thinking I should just have chased this guy down and turned him in

I appreciate your comment and reflection after the incident.

The labor of trying to fend off sexual harrassment/assault, unwanted advances, inappropriate flirting, etc mainly falls upon women's shoulders. We take the self-defense, we file the police reports, we speak up. But the culture is set up to question, dismiss, quibble over articles (stats, political leanings of bylines), and as you stated above, shrug shoulders with "well, what can you do?"

Women don't need "rescuers", but we do need male allies who can speak up to help to create a culture of "don't even think about it, buddy", as opposed to the current (yet slowly changing) culture of "it's just how it is", "this is reality" or "never walk alone".

Ps. and yes to a forum poll.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

The bear analogy that made the rounds this year did an expert job in exposing why we chose bear over man!



I've encountered numerous male pilgrims on the camino who don't think twice about unzipping and peeing in plain sight.

Yep… exactly. If *that* were not so normal, we would know much more easily that the man with his hands in front of his fly at the side of the trail was up to no good and we could turn back, wait for someone to catch up, alert ops… phone a friend… get outta Dodge…
but nope…

 

[Dani7]

Thank you for writing such a great post. Especially the paragraph below.

Women don't need "rescuers", but we do need male allies who can speak up to help to create a culture of "don't even think about it, buddy", as opposed to the current (yet slowly changing) culture of "it's just how it is", "this is reality" or "never walk alone".

Ps. and yet to a forum poll.

 

[Elsamari88]

Hello,
I'm Elsa Mari, a journalist with the French newspaper Le Parisien. I'm writing to you because I'm looking for testimonials from women who have been harassed on the Camino de Compostela. If this is the case, could you please send me an email: emari@leparisien.fr
Many thanks
Elsa Mari

 

[Lindsay53]

I have always been impressed with the presence of the Civil Guard on Caminos I've walked in Spain. I think they do take the safety of pilgrims seriously. This year I walked on the VdlP from Salamanca. I was on my 3rd day when I bumped into a couple of Civil Guard Officers; they were very friendly and asked me in English where I'd come from, where I was going tonight and tomorrow, was I alone (yes), which route was I planning to take when the route split. I showed them I had the Alert Cops app and they were pleased. I was not nervous of walking alone but this was a very pleasant encounter and I knew that they were getting to know who was doing what on a very quiet route.

I am not happy that sometimes there are very unpleasant sexual incidents. However I do not feel that I should stop walking alone on a Camino. Years ago I was exposed to on a path in my home town. I often remember when I walk past the place now, 40 years later. I did report it to the police at the time. As a woman you have to be wary but you have to get on with your life and not be over-frightened either.

Yes, I agree that the authorities are taking pilgrim safety seriously. Recently I was at the unmanned and somewhat isolated albergue in Montamarta on the VDLP. The Civil Guard showed up, and an officer speaking excellent English asked us if all was well, if there had been any problems on the route and stressed they could be contacted any time via the number posted prominently on the wall. On other occasions when walking I saw them passing quite often, often slowing down and giving a friendly wave.

I am a man and don't have the same problems with unwanted and offensive attention as women sometimes receive, but it certainly seems the Civil Guard and other authorities are taking the problem seriously.

 

[Bexster]

You beat me to it!

And good for Johnnie Walker !!

Edit:
There are two articles on this topic in the Guardian today.

This one has Sara Dhooma’s story, previously posted on this forum:

‘I feared for my life’: stories of sexual harassment on the Camino de Santiago

Female pilgrims tell of terrifying aggression, the lingering effects and their cases being far from isolated

www.theguardian.com

Yes! Johnnie has been excellent on this issue, which is very helpful to bringing attention to the problem.

 

[Bexster]

The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?

The article doesn't mention 5 women in 5 years. It mentions the 5 who were interviewed. There are no official statistics kept on the sexual harassment and sexual violence on camino. Even with police reports, the statistics for sexual harassment and violence are known to be underreported globally.

 

[Bexster]

I do have my troubles with that article. It paints a picture of the Camino that is very much in conflict of what i experienced and, more importantly, of what seems to be consensus with all the female persons i had contact with. On top of that comes the statement that there is some kind of "Taboo" of talking about it, which i personally think is utter bull'it.
I would also love to have some kind of statistic. Or a proper newspiece, for a start. I am a bit surprised for the Guardian needing to make such a clickbait article, but then, i don't read that regularly. Times might have changed.

Since you are not in the Camigas Facebook group, a group dedicated to women walking camino after the murder of Denise Thiem, you aren't privy to the posts about women's experiences with sexual harassment on camino. The pattern I'm seeing is on the Camino Portguese. In fact, when I walked it two years ago, we heard a loud siren go off on the trail ahead of us. We then saw a woman running past us. It turns out she had a personal alarm that she was able to set off when a man had sexually harassed her ahead of us. I've been looking into the problem and even provided one of the authors of the piece some information about sexual harassment and assault, as I used to teach about it in a Psychology of Women course. One of the problems is that there aren't statistics kept on this. That needs to change. We know from the research that even when reported and statistics are collected, the numbers are below what is actually occurring. This is partly because women feel embarrassed, shamed, and told it's really nothing when they're harassed, so they don't report. You can't rely on women you know who've walked camino to be an adequate sample representing what is going on. Men also need to be allies in the fight against sexual harassment. It is a taboo subject because sexual harassment gets downplayed, denied, and women (and men) who talk about it get shut down either explicitly or subtly. There have been #MeToo movements around the globe now to redress the silencing that happens, but this is relatively recent.

 

[Bexster]

Merely to answer your wonder, @ Luka, and not to deride you for the sincere question:

We know from sexual assault support centres wherever they exist that intimate violence and sexual assault are massively under-reported. We know it from peripheral communicable disease reporting, especially in those with cognitive disabilities, that victims are too afraid to report… that sexual assault is indeed so common (and here I include things like flashing, molestation, and efforts to intimidate through sexual threat) that while it may be true that “not all men” (and men who don’t commit violence need to get behind women who experience it instead of whining about how they aren’t “like those men”)… it’s too many men. It’s also the women who protect them (read Dorothy Allison; see the recent Alice Munro scandal in which she jeopardized her daughter for the sake of appearances… it goes on and on and on and on). And there is far too much approval given (and encouragement) to women to just let it slide, let it roll, not take it too seriously and just move on.

I have not experienced anything truly dangerous on any of 8 caminos, but I did find myself just outside Fromista in my first year with a Spanish man about 15-20 years older than I who would not go away, who tried to get me to go with him to his friend’s house for lunch, and I was only able to shake him when I reached a village with a hard left over the road some KM away from the place with the donkeys. It was unnerving, and I am thankfully not gullible about out of place “generous invitations”.
Those who seek to deflect attention away from these things are, indeed, part of the mechanism that supports general misogyny and quotidian (sexual and not) violence against women.

And to be clear, that’s what we are talking about right now… but I would absolutely have a conversation about the violence that men enact against each other, with mostly very young men paying with their lives. But that’s not what the article was drawing attention to (whether with 100% accuracy or not). In fact, I find it appalling that people are willing to discount the infinite record of assault against women because in very rare instances something gets made up.

I had a student once who claimed to have been in a UN vehicle when it was ambushed in the DCR. The entire story was made up… but that does not mean that UN vehicles and staff are not imperiled in conflict zones; it does not mean that conflict zones do not exist.

Same with the Guardian article.

THANK YOU FOR THIS AMAZING REPLY! I have taught about these issues in a Psychology of Women course. The willingness to ignore and downplay these issues in general is exhausting. We need allies to step up. There are some on this thread, and I'm thankful for them, but we need more. There shouldn't be anyone questioning whether this is an important issue. Why would the Guardia Civil set up a special task force if it weren't really happening? They wouldn't. They know it's going on.

 

[Bexster]

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

Women walking Camino de Santiago speak of ‘terrifying’ sexual harassment | Sexual harassment | The Guardian

Sexual aggression said to be ‘endemic’ on route through Spain, Portugal and France with solo female pilgrims at risk

amp.theguardian.com

Possibly behind a paywall - it’s about time this got a public airing in the mainstream media.

How can men help stop sexual harassment in general? Here is an article about how men can be allies and help. We know that men also experience sexual harassment, and that's important to acknowledge. However, in terms of the focus on sexual harassment on camino and the replies from some men on this thread, it's important to address how they can support. https://dworakpeck.usc.edu/news/5-things-men-can-do-to-help-end-sexual-harassment-and-assault

 

[Leigh Lorayne]

As per usual, when any posts on sexual assault arise on this forum, I'm reminded of the male privilege that exists on here, and it never fails to disappoint me.

Ditto!

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

This isn't clickbait. These things do happen on the Camino and they aren't ok. It does not make sense to try to downplay them. I experienced a local man exposing himself to me twice (he followed me and appeared on a deserted stretch over an hour after the first time) on the Frances last year. It's an awful thing to experience (and yes, I did call the Civil Guardia once I got to a safe place and, no, they were not helpful) and can rattle a woman's sense of safety on the Camino.

Without wanting to enter a debate on what is and what is not clickbait, I believe we can agree that we disagree on this subject for reasons I have already given.

Sorry about your experience.

 

[bellamira]

The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?

I think the article is saying 5 women

I misremembered the number and you are correct it is 9 in 5 years. Still probably less than most big cities so why highlight the camino?

Your takeaway is "9 women in 5 years" whereas the article actually means "9 women interviewed. They walked the Camino recently, within the past 5 years". There's a big difference in your interpretation. No one has any idea of the true number because incidents go unreported.

 

[JustOneGuy]

Nobody knows here who I am in real life, therefore I will tell you this:

I have been living with a wonderfull, supersmart, beautiful and unique woman for 42 years. She has been repeatedly raped by her father, together with her younger sister, when she was 8 years old. When the mother discovered that, she got all the children (5 in total, my wife is the older one) and moved to another town and to a hidden location. A judge fortunately denied the father the right to find her, but their life was signed by this forever.

Thanks to her unusual intellect my wife conducted a normal life together with me and our son, but I can see the effects and the terrible impact on her family of this. Her younger sister, the one that suffered together with her, has gone totally crazy, and never developed a real social life or got a real job. The others experienced borderline issues and difficulties in life.

And they all live with this. Every. Single. Day.

This is the reason I cannot withstand deniers and people looking for ways to say "oh, but this is no more important than [add the item you prefer here]". Camino or not camino, I really don't care: harrassment, violence, is something awful, that we, males, rarely experience from the other sex.

I think that, with some remarkable exception, homo "sapiens" [sic!] is a really horrible species. And I regret to be part of a sex - males - unable to live together even with the people they love without using at least some sort of violence.

 

[chinacat]

Without wanting to enter a debate on what is and what is not clickbait, I believe we can agree that we disagree on this subject for reasons I have already given.

Sorry about your experience.

Perhaps I shouldn’t point this out, but this is not about you.

 

[LesBrass]

I've been reading much about this article on many groups, including this one. I've been left bothered and angry but some of the responses; and those feelings bother me.

I love walking the camino. It's an amazing life changing experience. But I also know crime exists.

Should we ignore the dangers or not tell people, or dismissed it as being so small a problem? It's clear the authorities is Spain believe (after the murder of Denise) that information and conversation is powerful. I have to say I'm in agreement.

Sexual harassment exists on the Camino. Too much so. I read far too often about flashers and unwanted events. I suspect only a small minority of those incidents are reported. I suspect the numbers are much higher.

Ask any woman walking if she has had an experience of unwanted, lewd attention from men and I think we would all be surprised at the response.

In my life I've met many woman who have been a victim of sexual assault or harassment. I know one person who has been the victim of burglary or robbery. I'd be a fool to think that burglary and robbery doesn't exist; it's endemic in our society isn't it? How come crimes against women aren't given the same gravitas?

We should not be offering advice to our sisters and daughters about how to protect themselves against men, we should teach our sons and brothers what's inappropriate and unacceptable towards women. We should make lewd behaviour so abhorrent in society that it is always shunned. Wouldn't that make life easier for everyone?

I applaud the Gaurdian. It may not be the best reporting but it's got people talking across the globe. It's headlining in papers and in forums and social media.

This is a highly important issue. We should be working to find solutions, not hiding behind faults in the report or clickbait.

There have been some excellent replies in this thread. I debated whether to add my voice but decided it's time. This is too important to not deserve a conversation.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

Perhaps I shouldn’t point this out, but this is not about you.

ok, definitely not cool.
take care and Buen Camino

 

[dodo]

Sisters, this goes out to all of you! There´s not one of us who doesn´t know that being a woman is a risk when it comes to physical injury, sexual violence and being killed by a male known to you - all over this world.
And no - we will not stop walking - alone or otherwise.
We carry whistles, pepper spray (useful also when attacked by a dog) and knives, we have the Alertcop app and we don´t use headphones when alone in a street at night or alone on the camino!
I refuse to be a victim - I am a survivor or not.
Seeing men pee - I admit - to me is offensive (not because of the pathetic noodle on display but because of issues with hygiene) but not threatening as I see it on a daily basis living in a multi-million European city.
Women are vulnerable and so are men - let´s not let them forget that they too can be hurt.
And yes, we value our gut feeling, and yes, we report every incident and yes, we unite wherever possible.
And no, I will not let fear govern my life.

 

[chinacat]

We should not be offering advice to our sisters and daughters about how to protect themselves against men, we should teach our sons and brothers what's inappropriate and unacceptable towards women. We should make lewd behaviour so abhorrent in society that it is always shunned. Wouldn't that make life easier for everyone?

Having been molested (9), raped (16) and attacked (18), learning to fight back was all there was available to me in the 70s & 80s.
There were a number of other incidents that I’m unwilling to post about here.
I was angry.
I attended some pretty hard core classes, particularly in the 80s.
My hackles rise when I feel threatened by men and perhaps my anger discourages them.

On a more positive note, I hear my 16 year old grandson talking with his friends.
I believe there is a large cohort of that generation who find violence towards girls and women despicable.
Peer group pressure is enormously important.

“Teach your children well …”

 

[RJM]

I am actually more scared of dogs.

Why don't they write about that?

Well, the fear of dogs bit varies from person to person and not all perceived vicious dogs are vicious dogs. Some may see a dog barking aggressively from a distance as a vicious dog and others see it as just a yappy dog doing what dogs do. Warn people to stay away.
My one bad dog incident on over six months of Camino walking on different routes was remedied by a nice tight firm double grip on my trekking poles, slight choke adjustment like a Louisville slugger and a hard downward swing to its withers as it got danger close, mouth agape. It ran off yipping like a scalded ape. It might still be running
I've met more peregrinas who told me about having men expose themselves or harass them that have told me about problems with dogs.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

Having been molested (9), raped (16) and attacked (18), learning to fight back was all there was available to me in the 70s & 80s.
There were a number of other incidents that I’m unwilling to post about here.
I was angry.
I attended some pretty hard core classes, particularly in the 80s.
My hackles rise when I feel threatened by men and perhaps my anger discourages them.

On a more positive note, I hear my 16 year old grandson talking with his friends.
I believe there is a large cohort of that generation who find violence towards girls and women despicable.
Peer group pressure is enormously important.

“Teach your children well …”

I wish you every gentleness in all your remaining days.
And I will keep throwing my back into this issue wherever it arises...
Fierté mon amie.

 

[peregrina2000]

This thread is providing a great opportunity for people to express opinions and recount experiences about a very important topic. There have been several sidebar discussions about the politics of The Guardian that are irrelevant to the topic being discussed and they have been deleted. Let’s keep the thread out of the politics minefield.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

In response to assertions that the article is aiming to scare women and that it is only about personal fear:

Nobody in the article or in the thread is trying to scare women away, but there are plenty who have said that what women have been taught to endure is no big deal... or perhaps not even real... and I do think that's a problem.

Dogs are not the same at all as humans with a plan and a target. Which is why although I am afraid of dogs, being mauled by one that had a "streak" in him barely registers in my memories of terrible things, but enduring abuse (from a male parent) and from countless men I met in "safe circumstances" does register.

Making out deliberate human attacks to be on par with a fear of dogs is odd, and divisive of interpersonal violence. Sometimes that happens with people who have suffered, but it's still a very unfortunate approach.

 

[C clearly]

Dogs are not the same at all as humans

You make a fair point. However, in the interests of progressing forward, it might be more productive to make that point without castigating the well-meaning person who made a statement that you thought was misguided.

We need to be able to talk as people with a common goal, without alienating each other.

 

[VNwalking]

I've met more peregrinas who told me about having men expose themselves or harass them that have told me about problems with dogs.

This is telling.

 

[C clearly]

I've met more peregrinas who told me about having men expose themselves or harass them that have told me about problems with dogs.

Let's leave the dogs out of this discussion now.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

You make a fair point. However, in the interests of progressing forward, it might be more productive to make that point without castigating the well-meaning person who made a statement that you thought was misguided.

We need to be able to talk as people with a common goal, without alienating each other.

I'm sorry; I think there is something really wrong with forming a false equivalence between an article that addresses facts of assaults committed by humans and one's personal fears about random hazards. It is dismissive and has the effect of telling women to shut up and just get on with it... after all we can't always be addressing personal fears in the news.... The original article under discussion is *not* addressing personal fears or general anxieties. It is pushing back against the will to ignorance, to silence, and to apologia for the men who commit harm.

Nobody who has commented with dismay and/or reportage on the facts has expressed an expectation that every *fear* we carry will be addressed in the news. We have said that women, as human beings, have every right to occupy public space without coming to targeted harm. Bringing attention to that always makes apologists uncomfortable, and they deflect, blame women, tell women not to go alone into the world... the problem is not the women, and the problem is not individual human fear.

I'm sure someone will (or already has) written a popular "wellness" style article about not letting fear get in the way of a good outing... there is no neglect of that genre. The original article does not aim to scare women away from a pilgrimage; it aims to provide the knowledge to promote women's safety on pilgrimage.

If the Spanish and the French (the gendarmes cooperate now with the Guardia civil in an area at least extending as far as Puenta La Reina) can get it together and recognise the need for extra attention to the safety of women on camino (they've checked on me on a few occasions, seeing me walking alone) perhaps Portugal will not lag too much longer on *prevention* that comes of making walkers less naive about how great the camino will aways be, and with putting resources into monitoring the trails.

Or, we can shame people and tell them that they are being silly with their fears.

 

[peregrina2000]

I think that there is a huge disconnect between those who focus on this issue primarily as one of a woman’s right to be free from harassment and those who see it as an issue of how to best cope with the fact that whether we like it or not women are subject to harassment and sexual aggression. Having a right and being able to freely exercise that right without fear or mishap are two very different things. I think we can be aspirational about the right and still recognize that reality might dictate caution in the exercise of that right.

If I were advising a woman who came to my town and asked me about walking in certain campus neighborhoods alone late at night, I would tell her not to do it. There are too many instances of all sorts of sexual predation. I would tell her that she should walk with a male. If I thought that the Camino had a similarly dangerous section, I would tell her the same. I don’t think that this means that I am blaming the victim, or excusing male behavior, or somehow trying to tell her to get used to this reality and accept it as her fate. I am telling her that I think it is unsafe for her to walk alone at this one point at this particular time. I think that is the only responsible thing to do and I think that the gender of the person telling her that is irrelevant to the message.

Years ago, on the Vdlp there were reports of bandits with knives in between Sevilla and Camas. The reports were frequent enough and consistent enough to draw the inference that it was the same person/people. At that time, I told women that I thought it was foolish to walk without a male through that section. When the situation was resolved pursuant to an arrest, that advice changed.

I share the opinion that the remedy here is not to tell women NOT to walk alone. I walk alone, and can’t imagine the Camino otherwise, but I am cognizant of the risks I am taking. Based on all of the statistics, reporting, and anecdotes, I have concluded that the risks to my safety are minimal, and that they are risks I am willing to take. If I thought the risks were substantial, I would not walk alone and I would tell other women how I reached my conclusion and what I proposed to do about it. There are only two choices - to walk alone or to not walk alone.

My quibble with The Guardian article is that I think it has provided an exaggerated view of that risk and may create what is, imho, a disproportionate fear about sexual aggression on the Camino. But if I thought The Guardian were correct in its assertion about there being an endemic of sexual assault on the Camino, I would join with those who advise that women not walk alone.

 

[jefferyonthecamino]

As i mentioned above, the article states, at least in one case, a fact that is not true (the Venezuelan lady). The newspaper could have easily done their homework to crosscheck this. This does not mean that sexual harassment is not an issue on the Camino. Whether or not it is statistically significant regarding the numbers, we simply do not know. Furthermore, the headline itself suggests mediocre journalism based on alarmism.

So, yes, perceived and real sexual threat to women is most likely present on the Camino, like anywhere else where women exercise their independence and freedom to travel.

But no, this is a flawed article because of using unreliable data and reported cases, which, arguably does little to address women's safety when hiking, and/or women's safety specifically on the Camino.

 

[peregrina2000]

As i mentioned above, the article states, at least in one case, a fact that is not true

At the suggestion of a forum member yesterday, I submitted a comment to The Guardian that questioned some of the statements and choice of vocabulary for consistency with their journalistic standards. I mentioned the case you referred to, and I also gave my opinion that the use of terms like “terrifying” and “endemic” had crossed the line into sensationalism. If you go to the online version of the article now, you will see that they have removed the reference to the allegation that the victim later recanted and have noted that fact at the end of the article.

 

[Grahammac]

I think that there is a huge disconnect between those who focus on this issue primarily as one of a woman’s right to be free from harassment and those who see it as an issue of how to best cope with the fact that whether we like it or not women are subject to harassment and sexual aggression. Having a right and being able to freely exercise that right without fear or mishap are two very different things. I think we can be aspirational about the right and still recognize that reality might dictate caution in the exercise of that right.

If I were advising a woman who came to my town and asked me about walking in certain campus neighborhoods alone late at night, I would tell her not to do it. There are too many instances of all sorts of sexual predation. I would tell her that she should walk with a male. If I thought that the Camino had a similarly dangerous section, I would tell her the same. I don’t think that this means that I am blaming the victim, or excusing male behavior, or somehow trying to tell her to get used to this reality and accept it as her fate. I am telling her that I think it is unsafe for her to walk alone at this one point at this particular time. I think that is the only responsible thing to do and I think that the gender of the person telling her that is irrelevant to the message.

Years ago, on the Vdlp there were reports of bandits with knives in between Sevilla and Camas. The reports were frequent enough and consistent enough to draw the inference that it was the same person/people. At that time, I told women that I thought it was foolish to walk without a male through that section. When the situation was resolved pursuant to an arrest, that advice changed.

I share the opinion that the remedy here is not to tell women NOT to walk alone. I walk alone, and can’t imagine the Camino otherwise, but I am cognizant of the risks I am taking. Based on all of the statistics, reporting, and anecdotes, I have concluded that the risks to my safety are minimal, and that they are risks I am willing to take. If I thought the risks were substantial, I would not walk alone and I would tell other women how I reached my conclusion and what I proposed to do about it. There are only two choices - to walk alone or to not walk alone.

My quibble with The Guardian article is that I think it has provided an exaggerated view of that risk and may create what is, imho, a disproportionate fear about sexual aggression on the Camino. But if I thought The Guardian were correct in its assertion about there being an endemic of sexual assault on the Camino, I would join with those who advise that women not walk alone.

Perfectly explained. Thanks.

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

If I were advising a woman who came to my town and asked me about walking in certain campus neighborhoods alone late at night, I would tell her not to do it. There are too many instances of all sorts of sexual predation. I would tell her that she should walk with a male. If I thought that the Camino had a similarly dangerous section, I would tell her the same. I don’t think that this means that I am blaming the victim, or excusing male behavior, or somehow trying to tell her to get used to this reality and accept it as her fate. I am telling her that I think it is unsafe for her to walk alone at this one point at this particular time. I think that is the only responsible thing to do and I think that the gender of the person telling her that is irrelevant to the message.

A few things -- I take as given that there is a disconnect. That's fine -- we can challenge assumptions at work in various POVs.
I take umbrage at the minimisation or mocking of concern about the fundamental facts as somehow frivolous (going back to the false equivalence with fear of dogs).

The issue of campuses... that's an interesting one, and I think worth pausing on -- to the degree that there are similarities between university campuses, summer camps, and the camino routes: shared dorms, sometimes shared bathroom facilities, shared dining... and to the degree that it can be difficult to shake unwanted company: being stuck with the crowd that is ahead or behind by 24 hours. As with a campus, the unwanted companion has a pretty easy time of slowing down or catching up, or asking naive people "If so-and-so happens to be staying in this town or that one". We have forum policy not to divulge personal contact details when people show up looking for this or that person, but the trail has no such policy, and after walking three times in the summer, I have seen repeatedly the problems that can come from that one person who just won't leave another one alone. The trend is male and young (but I did encounter one older, divorced woman who just would not let the object of her obsession move on). We know that university campuses are one of the least safe places for young women to be. Entitled males, alcohol, and living quarters that are vulnerable to to intrusion. Naive young women, women who have not been taught how to set and maintain boundaries, who have been taught to appease, and on and on...
Personally, as an undergrad, I cut my risk by never living on campus... but as a faculty member for 25 years now, I cannot in good conscience advise that 70% of our student body not walk, work, play... in the campus community area. Do *I* walk there once the bars have opened? Not on your life... But I do walk caminos where drunken men in shared dorms are common enough, and on my first camino had to deal with a very problematic/dangerous loose cannon.
On the Baztan last year, I encountered a creep in the forest some km outside Trinidade de Arre and I was very thankful that I was able to throw on my afterburners and get away from him quickly, not engaging his question shouted suggestively at me in several languages "What do you want? Hmmm" ... so... my lovely, solitary walk with zero risks suddenly became very risky... A more popular route, however, can bring more frequent, negative encounters. The older I get, the less that seems to happen, and the men I meet and walk with tend to be truly gentle, thoughtful, lovely... and I finally look old enough that the younger men realise I'm nowhere near to their age (no more being grabbed and plopped into someone's lap as he says, "Stay with us! it's too early to go to bed!")

All of which is to say, that if I told young women to avoid campus, I would be telling them not to attend university -- my employer sells "campus life" as part of the deal... something like a blend of Harry Potter, summer camp, and 'town and gown' tropes. My campus is not alone in this... And we dismiss the final classes at 10pm. The best I can do is remind students that we have a "safe walk' peer service. But I simply cannot tell women to avoid campus.

A few days ago I was looking at archival photos of Toronto... there were some from the 1930's up to 1957 -- bird's eye shots of crowded downtown streets. In the 1930's there wasn't a single woman to be seen at mid-day on the Main Street; by 1957 they were still outnumbered men to women 3:1.

We do what we can to advise people in good faith about how to avoid danger, but we must be careful not to be advising that because the world has hazards, that women stay out of this or that public realm. And entering into the public realm ought not to entail being the one found at fault when terrible things happen because the world is over-full of men who do not want women to have their own lives.

And we do not mock those who are concerned with how to make the balance (preparation, prevention *and* adventure please!!!) as bringing frivolous fears to the fore.

 

[peregrina2000]

But I simply cannot tell women to avoid campus.

I did not suggest that. I merely said that if I knew that a young woman was planning to walk through a particular area of campus at a particular time of night, I would tell her she should walk with a male companion.

Your response shows clearly the frustration and anger you rightly feel because it is wrong and unfair that women have to endure this. I get that, but I don’t see how that translates into an action plan for how to deal with today's reality.

If you agree with The Guardian and think that sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying, endemic, and underreported, what advice would you give to a female pilgrim who asks whether you think it’s a good idea to walk alone?

 

[Perambulating Griffin]

I did not suggest that. I merely said that if I knew that a young woman was planning to walk through a particular area of campus at a particular time of night, I would tell her she should walk with a male companion.

Your response shows clearly the frustration and anger you rightly feel because it is wrong and unfair that women have to endure this. I get that, but I don’t see how that translates into an action plan for how to deal with today's reality.

If you agree with The Guardian and think that sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying, endemic, and underreported, what advice would you give to a female pilgrim who asks whether you think it’s a good idea to walk alone?

I cannot tell a young woman to avoid a particular area... I guess that's the problem Just because something happened before in one area, does not mean it will happen again in that area, or won't happen in another. So being selective about it doesn't work.
We have different strategies... that's fine, insofar as it goes and we live in a terrible world... but I think we agree that telling women that their concerns are no more serious than being afraid of dogs is specious.

What would I say to a woman who wants to walk alone?

Same as I say to myself: the world is a terrible place, and we do what we can to bring attention to it, and to fix it (through prevention, through education, through developing an awareness of what to look out for and what not to ignore, to know that we might still find ourselves in a vulnerable situation -- not because we are stupid or careless but because we are women)... So... download maps... have an awareness of how to get off the path if you need to, know how to use your emergency features on your phone (Alert Cops is only one option), and go live your life... because staying at home is a) one of the least safe things to do and b) there are different kinds of terrible things that can happen and one of them is being so cautious that you cannot live, and c) being aware that a camino is as full of hazards as a workplace or a campus, I hope you will live your life in public and with the freedom you deserve, but use your "fear" as a kind of radar to keep you on your toes; finally, D) don't ignore that situation with the dude haranguing a woman into drinking something she has declined, into walking with him when she does not want to... Two or three times on caminos I have seen a situation like this unfolding and have just waved at the woman like I knew her... "Hey! I'm so glad I caught up to you... we were having such a nice time together and I didn't get your name! But I'd love to continue our chat while we walk/head back to the albergue/ grab a table together..."

Like we usually say: the camino is part of life, not outside it or beyond it; the same *pandemic* problems of sexual assault, intimidation, harassment and stalking that are under-reported everywhere also happen on caminos. Heading off for a hike thinking it will be *outside of or beyond* that reality does not help us. Staying home because the world is awful, literally gets us nowhere.

 

[SEB2]

This is a worthwhile, brave and commendable thread but it is also challenging because the subject is of such serious concern that tempers are getting frayed. It is telling that this is the first time that I have felt at odds at what has been posted by some forum members for whom I have long had the greatest respect. Many peregrinas have courageously shared experiences and by that have perhaps implicitly drawn attention to the cumulative impact of sexual aggression, be it micro or major and to highlight why a flasher, for example might be sad exhibitionist, although he may also be a man who has anger issues with women.
In the UK, the investigation into the Sarah Everard murder revealed that the killer (a serving policeman) had been reported on several occasions for exposing himself in public places, yet this had not been acted upon. There is some evidence that getting away with these 'minor' sexual aggressions emboldens such perpetrators who then go on to escalate the severity of their crimes against women.

I (and others) had a post edited by the moderators - no problem with that - in which my opening sentence made reference to a forum member who had expressed their own partisan political views in relation to the newspaper article which prompted @henrythedog to start this thread. After the editing I understood that henceforth we were requested to leave the newspaper out of our discussions. But I want to respond to the final sentence of the previous post by @peregrina2000 so the name of the publication has been censored by me.

If you agree with *** ******** and think that sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying, endemic, and underreported, what advice would you give to a female pilgrim who asks whether you think it’s a good idea to walk alone?

While I will am happy to dismiss the assertion that 'sexual aggression on the Camino is terrifying or endemic, I do believe that it is underreported. I also strongly believe that knowing this is to be the case is to give power to peregrinas so they can determine what would be their best course of action if they ever have the misfortune to be faced with a threatening situation. Also to draw upon the advice provided by this forum, (and other Camino-related groups) and storing the emergency number to contact the police on a phone or other a safe place prior to starting the walk, because I still think it's a great idea for women to walk alone. Buen Camino

 

[joanneking]

The article mentions 5 women in 5 years when around half a million pilgrims walk the caminos each year. I expect the statistics would be worse for any european city so why highlight the camino?

Seriously??

 

[joanneking]

Having been assaulted in Santiago on October 22, 2024, my blood is boiling reading comments that question the veracity of the reporting in the article published by The Guardian. I can't even make myself read all of them. Just to let you know, the kinds of denials/doubts/minimizing I've read here compound the trauma we are dealing with.
I was assaulted in a public place, you all know it well, the Praza de Inmaculada, just after
10 pm. I was in the company of my daughter. There were other people around. No amount of "being prepared" could have prevented it from happening.
We reported the assault, and yes, it was physical, and the reporting process itself has also left its mark on us.
Please have a care if you choose to respond to this. Thank you.

 

[truenorthpilgrm]

Having been assaulted in Santiago on October 22, 2024, my blood is boiling reading comments that question the veracity of the reporting in the article published by The Guardian. I can't even make myself read all of them. Just to let you know, the kinds of denials/doubts/minimizing I've read here compound the trauma we are dealing with.

My comment (now removed) referenced a male forum member's dismissive, and quite frankly oblivious comment that questioned stats, and...it just speaks to how one population is expected to remain calm, unemotional, etc, and the other population is allowed much more space to...be clueless, I guess.