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Rules and Standards on the Camino: Do they exist? Should they?

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After reading a recent thread on the Pokemon phenomenon and it's possible existence on the Camino I was interested when one reply noted that it would be a sad thing for rules and standards applied to the Camino. At first I was inclined to agree with that statement believing we should all experience our Camino our own way.

But thinking more about it, the Camino is after all a Catholic Pilgrimage sanctioned by the Catholic Church with UNESCO world heritage status in a country with well-defined laws. Does this imply that there are already some rules and standards? And if there are such rules and standards applicable to the Camino, should they be there and where do they come from and who shares them and administers them?

As a starting point for me, I certainly keep thinking about this Pokemon idea. I'm all for people being able to live as they choose and experience the Camino in their own way. So on that I think Pokemon is fine, just another group enjoying their life in a way that makes them happy. Certainly the world can use more of that. But on the other hand, I don't think I would be happy seeing someone walking around in a church during a Catholic Mass (or even not during a Mass) looking for Pokemon. So what is the fundamental difference between these two Catholic religious events?

I'm really interested to hear if anyone else has thoughts about this, not Pokemon specifically but in general.
 
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C clearly said:
The fundamental difference is that one activity is on public property and the other activity takes place on church property.
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@C clearly
This sounds logical but is not necessarily so. A family in small town Alberta was tormented by pokemon seekers after a part of their property was made into a pokemon gym, resulting in trespassers, their dogs barking all night, and I believe some minor property damage. Their requests to the makers of pokemon to remove their property from the program were ignored until they took their problem to the CBC. I have no doubt that this is happening wherever pokemon is active (Where isn't it?).
 
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Their are 'rules' and 'standards' for the camino. Variably applied and disregarded. I'm thinking of the carrying of the credencial; defined distances for walkers / cyclists / horse-riders seeking a compostella; lights-out in Albergues; that donativo does not mean free; always give your last musli-bar to a hungry pilgrim...

That these rules are not all codified and are scarcely enforced is no doubt a good thing but they do exist.
 
Cultivate your own garden.

Except for physically destructive conduct, cause and effect will cure it all. The activity between an individual's ears in response to conduct is just something each person will have to deal with. The Camino is there to help each of us understand that.

In the meantime, pick up a few pieces of litter. It will make you feel just a little bit superior to those who don't.
 
who would make the rules? Spanish government, Catholic church? local towns?

Once someone starts making rules it will take away the freedom the the Camino offers and why many of people seek it out. Who's to say they wouldn't make a rule of how far you must walk each day or how how many days have to finish in.
It is best just left as is, with the existing loose set of rules both written and unwritten, and let the Camino police itself.
 
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I am not suggesting that my distinction solves all the practical issues related to application of the relevant laws. But I do think there is a "fundamental difference" in the comparison made in the OP (cathedral behaviour vs. camino behaviour). It is a very important difference in how rules and standards might be made and enforced/applied.

The situation you describe illustrates the difficulties in applying many laws such as noise controls, trespass, vandalism. The matter of media coverage and public opinion is still another complexity. The controls over our behaviour in public areas are always debatable. In the end, most of us (on this forum, I expect) are privileged to live in societies that seem to reach a reasonable balance of freedom and controls.
 


And may I add the concept of common sense. I believe that most things can be solved , even if we come from very different cultural backgrounds , if we use our common sense.

And just treat people like you yourself would like to be treated.

But yes it is an interesting topic the OP puts here. The line between individualism versus being part of a community : " The I or the WE ".
 
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C clearly said:
The fundamental difference is that one activity is on public property and the other activity takes place on church property.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. Would it be correct to paraphrase that location or at least ownership of location is the criteria upon what is acceptable in this example? I would agree that what happens on public land is certainly have an influence. I wonder if a person voluntarily walking a Catholic pilgrimage on public land but choosing to carry a credential issued by the church (or Camino organization) and reap the benefits of it should be held to any different set of rules or standards? Thanks again for your thoughts.
 
jozero said:
Would it be correct to paraphrase that location or at least ownership of location is the criteria upon what is acceptable in this example?
Click to expand...
Not at all! That is not a paraphrase of my post!

I was not addressing acceptability of behaviour, or even what rules I would want to impose if I had that ability. I was pointing out that there is a fundamental difference in the way "rules and standards" could and would be set in those two events (church service vs walking outside). I support the right of the church to set whatever rules it wants, within its jurisdiction, and that includes the issuance of credencials and compostelas.
 
William Marques said:
The fundamental rule as ever is: "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself".
Click to expand...
Thanks for your input. I too grew up with that ideal and it has often been a guide for me. For the last two years I've lived in an African country where beliefs and cultures are at times fully 180 degrees away from what I have known for my whole life. I only mention that because 'do unto others...' doesn't work for me as it once did because others don't always want to be treated as I do and vice versa. So I guess my follow-up question would be how we deal with situations when two people want opposite things (eg Pokemon vs Non-Pokemon )? Maybe as easy as turning the other cheek but I've read many posts on this forum and have seen some very passionate discussions about this and it seems a very hard issue to find a compromise at times.
 
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My apologies if I've misunderstood or offended. It wasn't my intention. Perhaps I'll resist the need to understand others posts as it seems I'm not very good at it
 
We have a Camino culture that directs the majority of pilgrims. At the same time, the Camino welcomes all to come regardless of their motivation or reason.

I am an advocate of "true" pilgrimage, but that label only applies to those that seek the same pilgrimage that has existed for over a thousand years. The moniker of a true pilgrim simply does not apply to all people or all pilgrims. It applies only to those who recognize the religious history and seek to walk in that same history. Does that make sense?

For almost all individuals who go on Camino and who seek to take advantage of the albergues and obtain a compostela, we each must observe certain rules. However, there are many others that do not seek a compostela nor do they have a desire to stay in the albergues. For them, they do their own thing however they want to do it and remain welcome.

I don't see any need to formalize the culture of the Camino any more than it already has been. Any attempt to enforce specific behaviors will only result in bad feelings, offence, and the creation of an enforcement squad that oversteps their boundaries. Any time you give a modicum of authority to humans you will find that many will eventually end up abusing that authority.

The Camino is intended to be an invitation to all to equally experience forgiveness and to begin anew. Nothing could be more egalitarian and all are welcome.
 
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For me, the conundrum lies in your description of the Camino as a "Catholic pilgrimage." IMO, that is only partially true. The Camino is also a long distance path on public property or on public rights of way that ends in Santiago. Surely the Catholic Church has the sole authority and discretion to determine the rules and acceptable practices for those who embark on a Catholic pilgrimage (policing them would be another matter altogether, but that would be the Church's problem). But I don't think you or anyone else is suggesting that the church gets to set the rules for all to obey as they cross Spain. That doesn't, IMO, mean that the standard-free "it's your Camino" mantra is there for us all to hide beneath to justify whatever behavior best suits our self-indulgent pampering. I know this is dangerous territory -- last time I tried to explain what I meant by that -- (https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/its-not-really-your-camino.39577/),
we decided to close the thread because of its downward trajectory, so I hope that won't happen again here.
 
Yes, yes and yes. Rules are made by all three of these organisations, and perhaps many more. In most cases we walk within those rules without, I suspect, giving them all that much thought. Most of us won't set out to break the Spanish law, and if we wish to receive the compostela, we will comply with the rules set by the Santiago Cathedral about the minimum walking distance and number of sellos. I could go on, but I would observe that most organisations who have the power to make rules that might apply to pilgrims do not seem to want to interfere any more than is necessary.

The other 'rules' are embedded in our own concepts of good behaviour and social obligation. Clearly these might differ widely between individuals.
 
Common sense and 'do no harm' to others go a long way.
@peregrina2000 expresses the need for sensitivity to each other while on the Camino so well, I think:
peregrina2000 said:
That doesn't, IMO, mean that the standard-free "it's your Camino" mantra is there for us all to hide beneath to justify whatever behavior best suits our self-indulgent pampering.
Click to expand...

External standards aside, things always balance out in the karmic wash. So it's up to each of us to be sensitive to that and to simply be responsible--responsible for our immediate action/speech, keeping in mind the bigger picture that we are not islands but members of a bigger community. And since we all mess up from time to time, mercy and forgiveness are vital. If we were angels we wouldn't be here.

Thanks, @falcon269--this one of my favorite posts in a long time. And I think I need to start by picking up more trash.
 
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jozero said:
So what is the fundamental difference between these two ... events?
Click to expand...
To apply a different lens: The difference between playing Pokemon Go on the Camino and playing in church is the difference in disruption or intrusion on the activities of others.
 
I think the description of the present day Camino as a "Catholic Pilgrimage" is a large overreach. The modern Camino is made up of a large percentage of non Catholics and non Christians.
The only "rule" making authority the church exercises is the qualifying distances for those who wish a Compostella. Nothing else ...and not even that for those who have no interest in receiving a Compostella.
Those who walk a only a portion that does not end in Santiago will have no exposure to the Compostella standards.

Normal civil law is the same for everyone in Spain.
Rules for sleeping accomondation are always set by those who own/manage the establishment as it is everywhere that people travel.

The Camino is indeed a pilgrimage for most people..but not a Catholic one or even a Christian one for many people.
 
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Well said, jozero. I think we'll all be in a better place when we start thinking more about this.
 

I strongly suspect that on Camino the old "Golden Rule" will always work wonders. However, the participants on Camino range from strict religious to strict vacationer and everything in between. In this context, we each do our own Camino. Those who seek religious objectives will find and do those things without infringing upon others. Those who are doing the Camino strictly for a physically demanding vacation will find that also. We do what we choose to do and for our own reasons.

I don't think there are many situations that will develop between individuals with polar opposites when it comes to motivations for going on Camino. In the event that they do the Golden Rule - treat them as you would want to be treated will work wonders. I also try to remember, and fail often, the adage that when I am ready to judge another the first thing I must say is that they are human. After that there really is nothing to say. Hold my tongue and move on grateful for when mercy and compassion were shown toward me from so many others during my life.
 

Common sense! The original oxymoron.
 
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There's the Compostela, but there is also the credencial. While on some routes anyone can stay in albergues, in many albergues one must still have a Credencial to be able to stay there. This to me is a way the Camino is a Church thing, and not just a GR. In that respect, Jozero poses an interesting question.

When private albergues start opening their doors more and more to anyone, like the albefues juveniles and many albergues on the Santiago-Fisterra route, then we can talk about something that has no relation to the Church, until then...
 
However...credentials are issued by many non church associations and groups.
They only need to be approved by the Pilgrim Office if a Conpostella is desired by the holder.
A good example are the Japan and Korean credentials (beautiful).
They may now have been approved...but before this year the were simply accepted if they had the qualifying sellos.

Possessing a credential surely does not mean one is on a "Catholic Pilgrimage".
I feel very sure that only those who wish to identify with the Catholic Church consider themselves on a Catholic pilgrimage.
 
I think that, instead of additional hard-and-fast rules, the answer is to promote a 'pilgrim ethic', with principles that help people best experience the pilgrimage.

For example, "pilgrims shouldn't use smartphones and iPads" is a (dogmatic and impractical) rule. However, "a 'pilgrim should try to minimize thier reliance on internet connectedness and experience more solitude and personal interaction" is (arguably) a valuable principle that might help someone.

p.s. the Golden Rule is really a Golden principle and should definitely be on the list

p.p.s Yes, Pokemon is an issue at churches, too. Even my dedicated youth ministry teens have been seen catching Pokemon on the grounds...we just had to remind them to keep it out of the church itself and to keep it respectful and courteous to God and others.
 
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Catholic Pilgrimage? I would never have thought that when I walked in 2014. While I am catholic, I walked it to purposely place my Dog tags , worn in Combat in Cambodia, Laos, & Viet Nam, at the old Roman Army shrine known as the Cross of Iron. Met UFO fanatics who claim that Santiago is where the first UFO landed on earth. Met modern Druids walking it as it really was their Pilgrimage first.
 
What is Pokémon?
 
xin loi said:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Met modern Druids walking it as it really was their Pilgrimage first.
Click to expand...

Seriously, where does that statement come from? I keep asking for evidence and would be most interested if someone could come up with it!

Scratches head!
Tio Tel
 
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TerryB said:
Seriously, where does that statement come from? I keep asking for evidence and would be most interested if someone could come up with it!
Click to expand...
It comes from modern guidebooks and blogs. Don't try to fight it, it is a lost battle.

I just remembered that I had wanted to read up more about the actual montes de mercurio. I do know how popular the cult of Mercurius was in general in the Roman provinces. Quick peek into Wikipedia (not always reliable, I know) told me that he was "the patron god of financial gain, commerce, eloquence (and thus poetry), messages/communication (including divination), travelers, boundaries, luck, trickery and thieves; he is also the guide of souls to the underworld". Made me smile.
 
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But you know that the credencial in its present form, with boxes for sellos to document one's path, is a modern invention, dating from the middle of the 1980s. And that is was originally designed by Friends of the Ways of St James organisations and not by the Church. And as a recent discussion revealed, there are credencials, officially recognised by the Church, that contain a reference to a (prescribed) Christian element of the pilgrimage while others make no mention of it at all, and if I understand correctly what a volunteer from the Santiago pilgrim's welcome office reported, none of this really matters much to the Church in the sense that a Christian attitude, or vaguely searching for such an attitude, is encouraged and welcomed but not prescribed? So, there are no Church rules for the pilgrimage as such.

As to the albergues: is Roncesvalles a Christian albergue for example? Not too long ago, it was run by the Roncesvalles monks but now it is run by Dutch volunteers. It strikes me as a secular albergue in a medieval Church building.

Since Unesco was mentioned: it is my understanding that the inclusion of the Santiago routes in the Unesco list refers to the material cultural heritage (buildings etc), not to the pilgrimage as such. So there are no pilgrimage-specific rules from this side either.

All this, however, doesn't stop the quiet - and sometimes more open - fight about who has supremacy over the Camino de Santiago and the pilgrimage.
 
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Oh Dear I hate to way in on this ......BUT .... what's wrong with just walking and experiencing what "nature" has to offer ... experiencing the stillness of the land .... meeting other soulful people .... sharing experiences ....I am not religious BUT perhaps even hear the voice of the creator in the wind, rain, shadows ??? How can life be better than this ???
IMHO the pokemeon players shall miss all this .......

Annie
 
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To me at least it is a "human pilgrimage" ..... does it have to be confined ... historically maybe .... BUT does one need to be defined by history ...... just a simple (ME ) persons opinion...

Anne
 

I am not religious Jason BUT I have enough common sense that I would NOT use phone /txt/email etc in a church /mosque/holy place . I also would NOT do this when sharing another persons company /companionship/ time etc ..... its quite simple really ....
Am I getting old ????
 
Nothing, Annie, nothing at all. And I personally think Pokemon's 'enhanced reality' is actually 'diminished reality.'
But. Well, we're not the only ones with ideas about this.
Annie Little said:
Am I getting old ????
Click to expand...
Probably.
I know I am, now.
 
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I can't wait to get on that track and experience ALL of human nature ..... every race , creed and colour and generation ..... OHHH well and OK the pokemons IF they really have to come
.... sounds like my family actually ... very race /creed/colour .... no pokemons yet
 
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OK, I have a very different view on the Pokemon Go after biking around northeastern united states for the summer and going to a lot of national park/community parks on that trip. On open public land it can be a great thing and have people that were not going out to see sites in the local area out and about. Second the Pokemon Go points where I was were designed for walking or biking around to pick them up so were leading to a lot of exercise. Third there was a ton of talking and live person interaction both on the walks and at the gathering points.
I think would be great for locals to be on the roads/paths of the camino for daily walking. We the pilgrims don't own the land we walk/bike on and have trashed some of land, as such can we truly ask for anything of the locals in terms of behavior which is legal.
 

The booklet may be a recent invention, but the idea of the stamp and the 1 night only goes way back in time, or at least that is how Jato explained it to me. His explanation is that stamps were actually burned into the bordones, not to show that kne had made the trip but so that people could not stay in the same location day after day. According to him there was quite a trade of bordones depending on how ling someone wanted to stay somewhere. But I am just getting this from Jato.

Back the the current booklets, the cathedral just made it very clear that it must approve the ones that will give someone a right to a Compostella. And it's those same credenciales that are required to stay in the majority of albergues. I don't understand the logic. A document sanctionned by the cathedral is needed to get inexpensive lodging in private albergues. Why?

Let those who want a Compostella collect stamps, and let's do without stamps and booklets for those who are on a "secular walk".
 
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Anemone del Camino said:
And it's those same credenciales that are required to stay in the majority of albergues. I don't understand the logic. A document sanctionned by the cathedral is needed to get inexpensive lodging in private albergues. Why?
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. I have been checking for albergue accommodation for my upcoming camino. Some private albergues state on gronze.com that they are not limiting their accommodation to pilgrims with credenciales, but they will admit pilgrims. It seems that the owner or manager of a private albergue decides whether or not to admit pilgrims, not that they are somehow only permitted to accept pilgrims.
 
Anemone del Camino said:
let's do without stamps and booklets for those who are on a "secular walk".
Click to expand...
How might the secular strollers evidence their walking? Or are you supposing that they'll be excluded from Public and parochial Albergues but admitted to the commercial ones even if they've arrived by car? In much the way that the YHA operates these days. Calling in to the Albergue in Burgos I mentioned to the hospitalero that I was walking to Moratinos to join the Ditch Pigs. I was very firmly informed that the Albrergue was for pilgrims walking to Santiago.

It would definitely take the pressure off the municipals in peak season
 
Kathar1na said:
It comes from modern guidebooks and blogs. Don't try to fight it, it is a lost battle. .
Click to expand...

I am not after "fighting it". I have an interest in the common links between the British Celts and the Iberians.
(my present blog at : http://anglo-saxongallegos.blogspot.co.uk/)
The links between the British Isles and Northern Spain do go back way before the "Druids" came on the scene. Back even to Neolithic times and beyond. If anyone had evidence of "pilgrimage" in ancient times, I would be most interested. In my reading there seems to be a consensus that each tribe or area had their own "gods" and shrines. A long distance "pilgrim route" crossing many tribal boundaries would seem to be most unlikely.

Blessings
Tio Tel
 
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Tio Tel, you may remember some of the discussion from this thread: https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/pre-christian-tracks.21620/#post-168476 There have been further indications since of long distance travel in Neolithic times including the identification of Beaker burials in Galicia of, again, Danubian originated remains. Citation lost for now but I will look for it again. Perhaps the Danubian Delta was too wet for burials - though if that is the case why on earth choose Galicia?
 

I'm not saying they are "only permited" but that many willingly only open their doors to people with credenciales. For those who only admit people with credenciales, if the credencial is only about getting a Compostela, they must look at the Camino as something else than being public domain. No?
 
@tinkatinker,

That's exactly my point: if the Camino is not a religious thing (I am refering to Pergrina2000's post about the Camino being a public affair) why are we requiring credenciales, why are albergues only for those walking to Santiago? I assume because we still see a religious component to it, an "ownership by the Church" of some sort, as suggest by Jozero.

And if it still is a Church thing, then rules and regulations could exist. Like a maximum number of departures annually, and a minimum number of days to bet to destination (forcing people to stop and smell the roses). And please, let's not get hung up on these examples, they are just thrown out there.

Why would a muni only welcome people who want a Compostela, there for have a credencial? What about the ones who only want a certificate of distance? Why is that offered by the Church at the pilgrims' office? And should they be allowed in the paraquial and munis, and privates who only open their doors to people with credenciales?

If the Caminos are a GR like any other, then no rules, no credencial to access albergues. If it's something special in connection with oilgrimage, Catholicism, the Cathedral, then why would rules and regulations not be possible?

On the French GRs, what is required to stay in a Gite?
 
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Pokemon....pure sh**e IMHO. Have no idea why someone would want to travel all the way to Spain, to walk a very old Catholic pilgrimage, and have their face buried in some electronic device looking for ridiculous and bizarre cartoon characters. Bad enough as is just having throngs of tourists shuffling noisily by while attending mass at the cathedral in Santiago.
I suppose as stated before the only rule is the golden rule, and if an adult still doesn't know how to live by it, well not much can be done to help them there.
On this latest CF I walked I noticed how much it has changed since I walked it the first time in 2013.
More noisy and rude pilgrims on the last 100K.
A lot more wannabe be gurus, shamans, philosophers and yes, I think I met a wannabe druid.
More younger pilgrims walking it as the "Camino de intoxication/fornication". Not throwing stones here on that one. I often said to myself while walking, if I was only in my 20's again. ha ha
Saw the occasional unhygienic feral hippie on the CF. There should definitely be a rule for smelling that bad and staying in a public albergue. Phew...
It definitely rubbed me wrong to see the circus/carnival like atmosphere around the cathedral in SDC this year. I mean literally carnival/circus like. I saw jugglers, a dude on stilts followed by another guy wearing a pink elephant costume and just outside one of the cathedral entrances there were circus acrobats performing with loud music and all. I could only SMH and think of when Jesus chased the money changers out of the temple.
 
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