Real Pilgrims

[Bradypus]

It never occurred to me to make this connection. I am certainly not quick to believe everything that is being preached. I like to go back to the original sources. But now that you said it I am warming up to the idea of being heretical. I hope I won't end up in flames.

@Kathar1na : My sincere apologies if my heavy-handed attempt at humour has offended you - very far from what I intended. I was simply amused by the coincidence that a Katharina would find herself running into opposition from higher authority (in this case the mods) for raising the sola fide question!

 

[William Marques]

Rule 2) No discussions on religion, bull fights , sports and politics. These topics "always" end in a fight, so let's not go there. It is true that the Camino and religion is closely related, so some leeway will be given.

As you can see from the forum rule it is not the discussion of religion that is outside the rules, as the Camino and religion are closely related, but the bitterness and personal slights that such topics often initiate that causes them to be closed down.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

I'm not Catholic, or Christian, or religious in any way.
I'm sorry if my existence on the Camino offends any "real pilgrims".

Of course you will not offend anyone. Your wonderful smile will only add to the beauty of the Camino and to the experience of the Christian pilgrims who will appreciate the company and friendship of a beautiful person that you certainly are, Trecile!

 

[Irish Bernie]

Of course you will not offend anyone. Your wonderful smile will only add to the beauty of the Camino and to the experience of the Christian pilgrims who will appreciate the company and friendship of a beautiful person that you certainly are, Trecile!


Frow him to the fwoor centurian !!!!!

 

[Castilian]

(why doesn't English have a single verb for 'going on a pilgrimage'?)

Surely there's one. It might be one of those words that exist but are rarely, if ever, used although, of course, I'm just guessing so I could be wrong. It would be nice if a native English speaker could enlight us. Meanwhile, would peregrinate be close enough?

"Judging" has become a dirty word, but good judgement is needed when you're a secular person in an overtly religious place.

What about using discernment instead of judgement?

 

[Felice]

Good thoughts by all.

I travelled from SJPDP to Santiago last year. I covered every inch by foot - that was a personal thing. I loved every second on my Camino.
However, My compostera is still its original tube.

Rich - that's exactly what my husband did, and how he felt, so I fully understand your point of view.

Me, though. Well, I ended up taking a bus twice and a taxi once, and it still niggles. You see, I wanted to walk it all, and I did not.
My compostela is framed and hanging on my study wall. It reminds me of the camino every time I look at it. When I started walking, I was not interested in a piece of paper, but at an albergue a little out of Burgos, there was a lovely gentle man called Felix who had walked the camino numerous times and each of his compostelas was simply but beautifully framed and hung on the wall. He was a camino amigo too. Something of the love and respect he had for the camino made a deep impression on me, and I decided not to banish my piece of paper to the back of the cupboard, but frame it and put it on display, even if only for me. I'm glad I did. It's part of my respect for the camino.

 

[Felice]

Good thoughts by all.

When I arrived at Santiago, it was a real anti-climax. I was totally under-whelmed for 24 hours.

I found it helped to go through the pilgrim rituals. I went and knelt in front of the relics of Santiago and in thanks for a safe journey. Then I went up the stairs and gave Santiago a hug, wearing the silk shawl that I had bought from a Syrian Christian in Aleppo souk not that many years before, and, remembering the name of Santiago Matamoros, thought wordlessly about the plight of all the inhabitants of the ancient city. Somehow, it gave a purpose to my journey, and helped to bridge the gap between the camino experience and getting back to normal life.

 

[trecile]

Judgement has many definitions, some subtle. I've underlined the one that I think should be avoided

Simple Definition of judgment

• : an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought
  
  
• : the act or process of forming an opinion or making a decision after careful thought : the act of judging something or someone
  
  
• : the ability to make good decisions about what should be done

 

[Deleted member 36903]

No one said you have to be a Christian to walk the camino. Just be respectful, is all. Don't expect the Camino to conform to your wishes. Conform your wishes to the camino. Honor the people around you, even the scruffy ones.
If you are not utilizing the holy path for a holy reason, give way to those who are. If you are not homeless, don't take a bed in a homeless shelter.
"Judging" has become a dirty word, but good judgement is needed when you're a secular person in an overtly religious place.

Rich - that's exactly what my husband did, and how he felt, so I fully understand your point of view.

Me, though. Well, I ended up taking a bus twice and a taxi once, and it still niggles. You see, I wanted to walk it all, and I did not.
My compostela is framed and hanging on my study wall. It reminds me of the camino every time I look at it. When I started walking, I was not interested in a piece of paper, but at an albergue a little out of Burgos, there was a lovely gentle man called Felix who had walked the camino numerous times and each of his compostelas was simply but beautifully framed and hung on the wall. He was a camino amigo too. Something of the love and respect he had for the camino made a deep impression on me, and I decided not to banish my piece of paper to the back of the cupboard, but frame it and put it on display, even if only for me. I'm glad I did. It's part of my respect for the camino.

This is such a thoughtful discussion and I thank all the members who are contributing for this. Another thread currently running on the latest posts is headed 'Albergue etiquette'. The OP was, in advance of arriving on the camino asking others how to behave in the communal space of an albergue. This was a considerate and far-sighted enquiry that indicated that the OP wanted to check out what were the established norms of storing boots etc. Both Rebekah and Felice make 'respect' a focus of their postings quoted above and it seems to me that if we say that there is something called 'pilgrim etiquette we might be able to listen to one another without the guilt some comments can provoke.

When I posted comments after returning from the CP I realised too late that what I had written was reactive and not sufficiently reflective. I had offered an opinion based on expectations and meaningless comparisons, forgetting that a pilgrim walking the camino (with or without a hairshirt ) would be better advised to put aside preconceptions and to recognise and accept what is given. We don't need to struggle to define what is a true pilgrim, but my credencial is designated officially as a Credencial del Peregrino, I have stayed in albergues all of which require me to show that credencial as evidence of my being a pilgrim and thus qualifying for a cheap bed. The regulations of the pilgrim infrastructure therefore, makes clear that these benefits are for pilgrims, so perhaps some people feel uncomfortable when walking for non-spiritual reasons because they have an antipathy to organised religion. Being fortunate never to have experienced the repression or abuse of any church institution or from its representatives, means I do not have any 'backstory' that gets in the way of my embracing the Christian faith. I can understand that those who have had negative experiences might see things in an altogether different light.

Some of Rebekah's comments made me uncomfortably aware of my own privilege (no bad thing, always good to have one's comfort zone challenged) and if I walk the Camino again, where there is overcrowding in an albergue I will move to private accommodation. I don't know if this is a hair shirt combined with an en suite, but it's probably the best I can offer at the moment. Thanks to all for provoking reflection.

 

[Tincatinker]

This is a mixed up Moderator / Member comment. It is always a challenge to separate the two. When this thread opened my Moderator's heart sank. I thought "Here we go again. Put it on the watch-list. This will go to the bad like it always does". But it hasn't. I've watched, I've winced occasionally, but I've seen good discussion, honest confession, reasoned argument, strong emotion expressed cooly and carefully: And it must be said, a few atrocious attempts at humour. Ah well.

As a Member I think I've learnt something, or at least had my understanding reinforced: that among many of the seasoned members of this community the Camino, the Pilgrimage, means something. It means something special. Special to that individual for a multiplicity of reasons: religious, spiritual, historic, emotional, adventurous. For some confrontation with others who seem not to appreciate where they are or why is a challenge that is hard to face yet that has been achieved here. It has been good to see so many express belief and faith and hope and desire rather than simple inarticulate rage.

This old pagan will continue to walk his way. I am happy to have so many more of you for company.

 

[Deleted member 34316]

And it must be said, a few atrocious attempts at humour. Ah well.

I apologize for any inappropriate humour I include in my posts. This is the post-Camino withdrawal syndrome...
But please, let's not make this forum (or the Camino) too sad (see photo)
I heard God has a sense of humor, and I imagine the Pagan Gods have it too!

Buen Camino!

 

[Tincatinker]

Oh yes. I hear them. Though they never mock. They just think we are funny. So determined to understand, so demanding of reason...

 

[VNwalking]

We Buddhists only know about suffering.
( Not.)

It has been good to see so many express belief and faith and hope and desire rather than simple inarticulate rage.

This old pagan will continue to walk his way. I am happy to have so many more of you for company.

Me too, Tinkatinker. And thank you for your heart-warming post.
That's what makes this Forum a decent and good place to come back to again and again. (Mostly) we discuss, rather than rant. I so appreciate that and what I continue to learn from everyone here.

 

[Pong]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

We humans are so interesting. I have heard people complain about the taxi pilgrims, but also have heard complaints about the "hordes" starting in Sarria "only to get their Compostella" and "not really being "real pilgrims" because they have not experienced "enough" of the Camino. I understand the frustration with standing in a very long line at the office in Santiago, or with losing out on bed space after a long day's walk, but there will always be those who take the easy way. Some would say your son took the "easy way", "only" walking the bare minimum for a Compostella and crowding the albergues, taking beds away from "true" pilgrims who walked further. I would not say that, but just making a point. People do tend to judge and it probably would be better for us and for others if we didn't. I think what makes a "true" pilgrim cannot be seen, it's what's in the heart of the person making the journey. Ideally we would all just pay attention to our our own journey, but it's oh so tempting, and some people make it oh so easy, for us to look around and label the "fake" pilgrim.

 

[BillyB]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

I really don't think a lot of the people in this thread really read the post. I have no problem with people taking taxis.The point of my post was about sharing the camino with other people who have never done it. I don't think you can share something you haven't experienced. I wasn't condemning anyone for not walking.

 

[Sandra puente]

Hi Bill, small world, I met you and your son in Sarria we share a table at Roberto's Meson. Yes, it was raining! I am the lady who walked with her daughters. All I can say is that everything teaches us, and that there is always hidden potential in the situations that make us uncomfortable.

 

[Susan B Johnson]

I don't understand the importance of the credential. What does one do with the credential afterwards? Frame it and hang it on the wall? Put it in a scrapbook?

I will begin my first Camino next week. I'm not interested in the destination, rather the journey itself. The journey is what leads to spiritual growth (hopefully!).

 

[Debora]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

You are right. They did not do the same Camino as you...and that is too bad for them because you learn a lot on the long walk...and when it rains and you preserver you learn something and when you have blisters and walk anyway...you learn something. The camino is very personal and when I see another pilgrim I think nothing about their walk because it's really none of my business. There is only one person I concerned myself and it was me. I am happy for you and your long walk home and all the experiences you get to have with you for the rest of your life. You are so very lucky!

 

[Deleted member 36903]

I don't understand the importance of the credential. What does one do with the credential afterwards? Frame it and hang it on the wall? Put it in a scrapbook?
I will begin my first Camino next week. I'm not interested in the destination, rather the journey itself. The journey is what leads to spiritual growth (hopefully!).

Please excuse me if this strays off topic slightly. The OP was headed 'Real Pilgrims', usually a phrase that, as Tincatinker wisely explained 'usually goes to the bad'. This time it hasn't and for those who haven't done so, it is worth reading the many thoughtful contributions from members.
to begin to answer your question as to the importance of a credencial, firstly, it is a document that, in theory, identifies you as a pilgrim. secondly without it you will not be able to stay at many of the municipal and parochial albergues along the various Camino routes - but of course you already knew this. Many members of this forum have written of how their credencial is treasured more than their Compostela, not least because it is a record of the journey, and the various sellos act as prompts to memories of people, places, experiences encountered along the Way.

I have also expressed the opinion after having walked the Frances last year that the journey was the important aspect of the Camino. That is no longer my view. Having arrived in SdC twice now, attended two Pilgrims' Masses twice (the large one in the body of the Cathedral, and the English one in a small side chapel), having waited for the crowds to empty from the building so that I could make my way quietly up the steps to embrace the statue of St James and deliver the prayers entrusted to me by others who could not make the journey, having stayed in the city, been taken care of by the wonderful people at the Pilgrims House I now understand that the journey and destination are for me anyway, inseparable. I treasure my compostelas, the second one because it bears the name of my late partner, and I delight in looking at the credencial. you might be surprised when you get home to discover the folks who are 'Camino'd out' in terms of listening to your stories about the Way can show a real interest in this document. Like the compostela, it is just a bit of paper, but, like a photograph of a beloved, (again just a piece of paper), it is replete with meaning for those who consider it so.

 

[Jennifer from Colorado]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

Billy, don't you have to have your credencial stamped 2x/day after Sarria?
I understand your irritation but I want to doubt that all these individuals you saw really taxied in the whole last 100kms.

At any rate, I am reminded of the NT story Jesus once told about field workers hired at different times during the day yet all paid the same. One worker (like you ) was irritated that the late-comers (taxi pilgrims ) were all paid the same amount (compostela). The field owner (God) said he paid the agreed upon amount, so the jealousy/irritation wasn't warranted.

The compostela is not an award but more of a remembrance. The award is the satisfaction one carries within oneself as being a dedicated God Walker. The more you walked the more gratified your heart is.

IMHO...
Congrats on having completed your Camino!
Jennifer

 

[Jennifer from Colorado]

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

One last observation...
As I hobbled tonight into Burgos, I passed a Pilgrim, a REAL pilgrim, carrying a backpack, accompanied by a patient, caring companion.

This REAL pilgrim suffered from a former of muscular dystrophy, and his left leg, which didn't work at all, was dragged behind him by his twisted right leg, with his body weight borne by his metal crutches. I estimate he was maybe making 1km/hour.

Compared to him, on my two good feet, I hardly felt like a real pilgrim at all.

 

[wotbus@]

I don't understand the importance of the credential. What does one do with the credential afterwards? Frame it and hang it on the wall? Put it in a scrapbook?

I will begin my first Camino next week. I'm not interested in the destination, rather the journey itself. The journey is what leads to spiritual growth (hopefully!).

Bravo Susan, you said it all. I wish you well and have a good camino as they say here.
I have just finished this thread and found it a bit depressing, like the "marque" elitist's I have met in the various clubs to which I have belonged in the past. I am surprised to read so much and written with such depth of feeling on the forum.
My partner is just over 100k from finishing her CF from SJPdP and has never spoken to me about what I have read here despite walking two years previously the French stages which lead to this one and relating her experiences.
Knowing my passion for two wheels and her enthusiasm to take up my sport because I cannot take up hers, we intend to cycle the CF next year. It is not for certificates or religious reasons but for the very reasons you point out. One the day she couldn't walk (foot pain too severe) and the weather and stage made it highly undesirable anyway. Shame on her for taking a 20minute taxi ride with 3 others...
It's a well marked route through beautiful countryside with plenty of stops along the way; sleeping on Church floors for some, 4* Hotels for others and yes indeed, bike shops Does it really matter?
I begin to feel I will have to get some special T-shirts made up which show us as not being Real Pilgrims and thus make us acceptable ;-) . The cycle route deviates frequently from the Pilgrim route anyway so only those who carry their bikes and kit through the sections impossible to ride should qualify, shouldn't they... LOL.
Use of the name cyclegrino smacks of elitism and as a keen cyclist I don't really like it I but if I am sat at a bar and a Real Pilgrim walks/staggers/limps up and calls me one, I'll be happy to smile and buy them a beer or two because they deserve it. One World right?

 

[DurhamParish]

The camino is not a competition. The compostela is not a trophy.

 

[psychoticparrot]

A pilgrim from the 14th century would be howling with laughter at this thread. A true pilgrim, he/she would say, after walking to Santiago, is only halfway finished with the pilgrimage. He would then have to walk back home. No option of grabbing a bus, a train, a plane, to get back home like the rest of us "slackers."

Live and let live. "Only God can point the finger." (line from "Moonstruck")

 

[Deleted member 36903]

... I have just finished this thread and found it a bit depressing, like the "marque" elitist's I have met in the various clubs to which I have belonged in the past. I am surprised to read so much and written with such depth of feeling on the forum. ...

]A pilgrim from the 14th century would be howling with laughter at this thread.

There are twitter and online blogs, Facebook and then there is this wonderful forum. It reminds me of a vintage UK magazine from my childhood called Exchange & Mart, within its many pages you could find adverts for poultry, army surplus, secondhand cars, warehouse clearances - you name it, they listed it.
The forum is a place for everyone. Day-after-day (thank you Ivar )
it provides practical information (often repeated for the umpteenth time because not everyone has read previous posts or knows how to search for the relevant subject),
encouragement (for pilgrims thinking about embarking on the Camino but having doubts as whether they will be physically able to make the journey),
comfort (to those who are walking because of personal loss, whatever form that may take),
an honesty of expression not often encountered in online communication, and a regular dose of humour, often irreverent.
I respect all pilgrims. however they make their Way to SdC, and I feel a great warmth for the generosity of spirit that characterises this forum. Maybe it's because I don't get out much, living as I do up a hillside in Scotland unable to drive and without transport other than a bike.

But I'm sorry wotbus I don't recognise anything depressing about the thread, it's an exchange/sharing of views, and I do not find it redolent of any kind of elitism, but that is just my opinion, in addition the depth of feeling expressed is, for me, a joy - no artifice, no pretence, just saying what you thing but with consideration of others.
psychoticparrot, I very much take your point about modern day pilgrims have it easy compared to those from the 14th century, but I think that those same medieval pilgrims would be more likely to be howling with laughter at all those people who now pay hundreds of pounds to cross oceans to walk a pilgrimage route to which they have no religious attachment.

There now Tincatinker, have I just edged a bit closer to 'going to the bad'?

 

[wotbus@]

But I'm sorry wotbus I don't recognise anything depressing about the thread, it's an exchange/sharing of views, and I do not find it redolent of any kind of elitism,

"Wot! No us and them"? OK, maybe I should have said disillusioned instead of depressed. I am very, very new to this forum and what it's about and my enthusiasm took a hit, that's all. I just never expected it.

it's an exchange/sharing of views,

;-)

 

[Deleted member 36903]

wotbus@ I have always read and enjoyed your posts, and we are all still learning, no matter how long we may have been members of the forum. By the way I would never cycle the Camino, not because I think it would compromise my 'real pilgrim' status, but because the physical effort involved in doing it by bike would kill me, much easier to walk in my physical condition.
Buen camino!

 

[urbanhiker]

I think the real pilgrim perhaps never really existed except in our mind. I'm sure the original pilgrim accepted a ride on a horse, or maybe a carriage. We like to talk about real pilgrims yet we drink cold beers mid way through our walks or at the end of the day. We stop for cafe con leche, or a bocadillo. Did the real pilgrim check his email, or carry a camera, or an Iphone? Did he have a nice pocket size guidebook? Did he have the latest technology in clothes and sleeping bags. Did the real pilgrim have a nice warm dinner with bottles of wine every night, in a nice warm restaurant?

With all due respect to those who consider that others who some how shorten their Camino are less than them, I suggest you take a look at yourself. These days the Caminos provide work for taxis, restaurant owners, store owners, and many more along the Caminos. The Caminos have been re-routed so towns can take benefit from the pilgrim. The Caminos provide a huge economy for these smaller towns along the way. And you know what? Everyone benefits. That sounds like the real Camino spirit to me.

We all have a different idea about how we should walk the Camino, but that idea should only apply to ourselves. Who are we to judge? Some people walk a week a year for several years until they are able to complete their Camino. Should this really matter? Where is it written that pilgrims have to walk the entire length? Where is it written that a pilgrim has to carry his own backpack? Where is it written that a pilgrim has to suffer? Where is it written that one cannot take a bus or a taxi? Where?

We should all do the Camino in a way that works for us. That's all. Don't judge. This is not a competition. Respect the land and respect your fellow pilgrim, and I think you'll be doing a good job and being a good pilgrim.

 

[trecile]

A pilgrim from the 14th century would be howling with laughter at this thread. A true pilgrim, he/she would say, after walking to Santiago, is only halfway finished with the pilgrimage. He would then have to walk back home. No option of grabbing a bus, a train, a plane, to get back home like the rest of us "slackers."

Live and let live. "Only God can point the finger." (line from "Moonstruck")

Wouldn't a pilgrim from the 14th century wonder why modern day people were walking at all when they had the option of taking a car, bus, train or plane?

 

[psychoticparrot]

psychoticparrot, I very much take your point about modern day pilgrims have it easy compared to those from the 14th century, but I think that those same medieval pilgrims would be more likely to be howling with laughter at all those people who now pay hundreds of pounds to cross oceans to walk a pilgrimage route to which they have no religious attachment.

"For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?"

 

[psychoticparrot]

Wouldn't a pilgrim from the 14th century wonder why modern day people were walking at all when they had the option of taking a car, bus, train or plane?

For the sake of my point, my 14th century pilgrims would have already gotten over the whole modern transportation wonders and moved on to the finer points of making a pilgrimage.

 

[Fatma]

There is no such thing like the 'real pilgrim'!

If 'real pilgrims' distinguish in such way and judge abt others they have walked to Santiago but not walked the inner spiritual path.

 

[aghamore]

I was a bit miffed by the crowds towards the end of the CF. I'm still not that happy that getting a beer or a sandwich became a struggle as the numbers in cafes increased exponentially but I'm pretty sure that the owners of the cafes, hostels and shops in those last 100k and the people they employ aren't complaining.

I spotted taxigrinos and fumed for a while but found them less and less in evidence until the last few kilometres into Santiago. When my wife and I arrived in Santiago, after walking the last miles with 3 people we met in Cacebelos and had our photo taken by a Korean girl we'd met on and off since the Cruz de Ferro, I perked up a bit.

In the queue for the Compostela, I saw and heard a few people who'd done little walking but were gloating over their sellos and imminent Compostelas and then we were greeted by an Argentinian couple who we'd last seen in Triacastela. In the afternoon, we came across a Spanish couple who we'd raced from Salceda and exchanged compliments on our respective walking abilities.

That evening, we ate in a restaurant with 5 French people we'd first met in Molinaseca, a Hungarian polyglot woman who had been a joy to walk with from Villafranca del Bierzo and an ex Las Vegas lawyer and her son who'd stolen our hearts outside of Ponferrada. We missed the company of the tough Kiwi family we'd first met in Hospital de Orbigo although we scoured the town for them.

At the end of the evening, we listened to music in the cathedral square, embraced and will probably never see each other again but, for a while, we were a band of brothers and sisters. It took me a couple of months to adjust to being at home after completing a fractured journey that began near Carcassonne 5 or so years ago and ended with a walk from Leon to Santiago. What SJPP to Santiago in one go does to you, I've no idea but I'd hazard a guess that it's a a little more spectacular than a couple of days on a coach from Sarria with a certificate thrown in.

 

[CatherineAnn]

Well said .. This is my second attempt , first one on 2014 put me in los arcos with bone spur on L 5 and a slipped disk . I had to go home
Im back now in Viana started in Los Arcos and have a bursa on my left knee . Can hardly walk . Im resting for a couple days in logrono .. if it doesnt improve i might have bus/taxi part or all of it. Maybe I should keep my head down case I get judged?

OP was not judging people who take taxis. He was upset that the same people who took taxis were getting a Compostela as if they had walked the last 100k.

The title to the post is one that made me cringe though....

 

[Urban Trekker]

All kinds of people walk the caminos and for a lot of reasons. I started in Saint Jean on the 14th of April and walked into Santiago on the 20th. I walked very inch of the way and then some and only took 2 days off. 2 of the last 3 days I sent my pack ahead. I had terrible shin splints but I was determined to walk the entire distance. Did that lessen my experience or achievement, no!
I saw many people go home for a variety of reasons and I saw others take the bus or taxi to the next stop. Most of them were for medical reasons and needed time to mend. I personally talked 2 people into seeking medical attention. One was sent home via ground transportation to England because of blood clots. The other I never saw again and can only assume that they were told to go home.
I did notice that the pilgrims were much older the last 100 kilometers. Maybe the people you saw were not mentally or physically prepared for the demands of the camino and were compelled to take a taxi.
The only time I was angry with pilgrims was during the last 100 kilometers. The busagrinos had reserved all the affordable 2 bed rooms all the way into Santiago. I got over it when I realized the business owners are always going to take the sure thing every time. I would. Buen Camino

Happy Trails

 

[Lars Wetterstrom]

Being a grumpy old man and a lutheran I am having problems accepting all the tourist pilgrims and all the other "stamp collectors". One inch of cheating on the camino would give me a bad conscience, sure. It is also about paying respect for the generations of pilgrims doing the camino in the past. And they had to walk back!!! I have done the camino twice but I never bothered to ask for a certificate. I loved the walking and the crazy dinners night time on the last part of the camino with peoples brains being softened up from the walking and the talking and the laughing reaches a crescendo over the food and wine....thats the brotherhood-sisterhood of the camino for me.

 

[Stuart Lennon]

Very thought provoking.
I intend to set out from SJPDP in October and walk for a week. I hope to walk for a week or so a year. The desire to complete the Camino is not one that my wife shares - and she is not keen on me disappearing for a month or so in one go.
I guess that this approach lessens the 'pilgrimage' element of the camino to a certain extent. A week's walking must be less wearing than a month on the road. I daresay that I may learn to live with that.
Bus-Grinos, Taxi-grinos - they may not qualify to some definitions, but I daresay that the economy is grateful for their spend, and I daresay that they take something from the experience.
My reading around the camino thus far leaves me believing that it is an incredibly personal thing, meaning different things to different people. Vive la difference!

 

[Bradypus]

A week's walking must be less wearing than a month on the road. I daresay that I may learn to live with that.

A bit of a diversion from the main topic just for @Stuart Lennon - apologies to everyone else!

I have no way to tell how much walking experience you already have so apologies if I seem to be stating the obvious here I think the answer is "yes and no". I find that the first three or four days of a long walk such as the Camino Frances are often a period of adjustment as my body gets used to walking long distances again. Happens every time. The rucksack is not quite comfortable yet, my muscles stiffen up at each rest and need to be eased back into use gently, my feet and hands become a little swollen, and everything is that bit more challenging. Then there comes a point when all that physical side seems to "click" and my body no longer groans and creaks so much after every pause and when getting out of bed in the morning. From then on I can walk more or less indefinitely day after day with little more than the routine aches and stiffness of overwork if I push myself too hard. In that respect walking for many days is easier than several short stages: you don't have the steep learning curve each time. I find my mental state works in much the same way too. For me stopping and starting over a number of stages would be far more difficult but I am sure that it is a highly personal thing and others would have very different experiences. I think the only way you will know for yourself is when you are on the camino - I hope you find joy in it when you are.

 

[VNwalking]

"You are not in a traffic jam. You are the traffic jam."

Indeed, very true!
Sheer numbers are much less of an issue in my book as disrespect and self-centeredness. And actually I've encountered as many people with those qualities in the first week or so of the Camino as anywhere else, maybe more. People do all sorts of things before their edges begin to get ground down by walking and co-existing with each other!

 

[Stuart Lennon]

For me stopping and starting over a number of stages would be far more difficult but I am sure that it is a highly personal thing and others would have very different experiences. I think the only way you will know for yourself is when you are on the camino - I hope you find joy in it when you are

Yikes! I have made it harder? Dang it.

I greatly look forward to it.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

Thank you Kathar1na for reminding us of what is right in front of our eyes.

 

[Robo]

I don't understand the importance of the credential. What does one do with the credential afterwards? Frame it and hang it on the wall? Put it in a scrapbook?

I will begin my first Camino next week. I'm not interested in the destination, rather the journey itself. The journey is what leads to spiritual growth (hopefully!).

The value of the Compostella can really only be determined by the recipient. So maybe you have no need of one.

I was keen to get my credential stamped along the way as a record and memory of my journey. (You asked about this in another thread). I stayed in private accommodation so didn't need it for albergue access.

But of course it was required to receive the Compostella.

I haven't hung mine on the wall. I might in the future along with other Camino momentos, in some private corner.

Why did I want a Compostella? What value does it have for me?

It's a reminder. Of my journey and the physical, emotional and spiritual elements of that journey. Does it mean anything to anyone else? Not at all. Why would it?

But for me it's a reminder of something good and very special, so I'm glad I got one.

If I think about other 'certificates' they have very different values to me.

I have a master of science degree certificate ...... somewhere. No idea where it is. It's not that important to me.

I have a Queen's commission certificate. (Awarded after completing officer training in the British Army) that does have a value to me. It represents a large part of my life. It's actually framed and hangs in a corner at home out of sight.

Of those three, which one have I looked at the most or shown to others?

the Compostella of course It's value to me is in what it represents. And that is......probably the most enlightening 6 weeks of my life.

for you.....maybe a collection of photos will suffice

perhaps it comes down to 'why' you are walking a Camino?

Like you, for me it was 'all' about the journey. I was just glad to be able to keep walking each day...

P.S. why not 'hedge your bets'?
Get a credential stamped every day anyway.......you might just find you'd quite like a Compostella when you reach Santiago.....

 

[Bradypus]

Does anyone actually read what it says in their credencial? Is the copy that is shown online on the Santiago Pilgrims Office the current version? Because it says that:

• Este credencial es sólo para los peregrinos [...] que desean hacer la peregrinación con sentido cristiano, aunque sólo sea en actitud de búsqueda. [...]
  
• La Compostela se concede solo a quien hace la peregrinación con sentido cristiano [...]

My Spanish is not brilliant so I may not understand it correctly but it seems to me that this part gets usually overlooked in the 100 km discussions?

I think the technical term for the issue here is desuetude:
"from the French: désuétude, from the Latin: desuetudo English: outdated, no longer custom) is a doctrine that causes statutes, similar legislation or legal principles to lapse and become unenforceable by a long habit of non-enforcement or lapse of time." (Wikipedia).

I received my first Compostela after a 15 minute conversation with a member of the Cathedral staff in a room near the sacristy. It ranged very widely over my personal religious history, my motivation for walking, my impressions of my journey, what I felt I had received through the experience, and my plans for the future. A gentle, humorous, probing and compassionate Spanish Inquisition which I greatly enjoyed. My impression from three visits to request a Compostela over the past two years is that the Pilgrim Office no longer makes any serious attempt to distinguish between those who walk for religious reasons and those whose motivations are largely or wholly secular. Please do not misunderstand me - this is not a complaint and I am not arguing that they should do so. I am simply making an observation. If a rule is not regularly and consistently applied it can quickly lose all validity. I think that relatively few non-religious pilgrims/walkers will know that a alternative certificate exists or indeed understand the distinction.

 

[wotbus@]

Use of the name cyclegrino smacks of elitism and as a keen cyclist I don't really like it I but if I am sat at a bar and a Real Pilgrim walks/staggers/limps up and calls me one, I'll be happy to smile and buy them a beer or two because they deserve it. One World

Well, live and learn, humble pie and apologies here.
I was under the impression, wrongly so, that the description for cycling pilgrims was used in a slightly derogatory sense. Sorry.
In the back of my French Cycling Guide to the CF is a photo of an Albergue sign with a poster attached, in Spanish, declaring "Establecimiento Adherido - Bicigrino - Camino de Santiago en Bicicleta".
Even a picture of a bike with panniers and Coquille.

I begin to feel I will have to get some special T-shirts made up which show us as not being Real Pilgrims and thus make us acceptable

Not a good idea. I will now travel heavily disguised or I will be buying everyone a beer LOL

 

[NorthernLight]

I walked, or rather hobbled, into a small town on the meseta. The hospitalier answered the bell, and invited me to sit down. He proceeded to interview me to determine if I was a true pilgrim or looking for "a cheap holiday". I was deemed worthy and allowed in.

20 minutes later an 80 year old man was at the gate, without his backpack. He had left it at another alburgue in town that was full and walked over to check if there was a bed without hauling the weight. Interview ensued. The man was rejected! There were plenty of beds available. (The other (nicer) albuergue had said they would find a mattress if necessary, so he was ok.) But this hospitalier, who is sometimes open, sometimes not, demonstrated the worst example of hospitality and the spirit of the camino I had encountered.

It took some time, but I learned to quietly chuckle about the tourgrinos, and try to ignore the hassle of queuing for coffee after Sarria. I really chuckled at the 104 km marker when the luxury bus pulled up and disgorged its load of apparently able bodied pilgrims. They couldn't even start in Sarria. Except for delaying my coffee fixes, they were irrelevant to my journey.

 

[Miguel de Flandes]

Technically your Camino starts from your front door, or so I've read. I was planning on getting a ride to the airport and taking a plane over to Paris. From there a train to Le Puy-en-Velay. Will I not be considered a real pilgrim?

Oops, I'll be

1. Taking a taxi to the airport
2. Taking a plane to Jerez de la Frontera
3. Spending a week in a quite luxourious hotel, visiting JdlF and Eastern Andalucia (by hired car, most of the time)
4. Taking the train to Sevilla
5. Start walkng from Sevilla hoping and praying to arrive in Santiago de Compostela 6 weeks later

Would I be a 'real' pilgrim

Buen camino
Miguel de Flandes

 

[BrianForbesColgate]

I would not compare a Compostela to a medal for a soldier. It's more like the medal you get when you complete a marathon - and where you are among the rank and file and not the elite runners who are professionals. It's a private thing.

Interesting that similar tones of discussions take place among some soldiers who have served "outside the wire" in Afghanistan and seen their brothers and sisters killed in action or blown to bits by IEDs, while another soldier who "only" serves in rear echelon and may have had to run for cover a few times for incoming rockets gets the same medal. Of course, the combat veterans would go crazy if they were stuck back in echelon, and they could not fight in the field without echelon's support.

To each their own as they are called to serve. Same thing for pilgrims, I would think.
----------
"They say the Camino is like life; however you have lived you will walk, and in your time here, all will be returned. In that sense, for many the Way is a penance, a succession of past karmas reflected on request. For others, it's a stepping stone, a progression toward something more beautiful than what they presently are."
- Eli, Page One, Shadows Don't Lie. The Year We Seized the Day.

 

[Angel-hart]

My husband and I are starting "our camino" from Sarria on June 4th. We were so excited that we got the opportunity to do what we can. My excitement faded as I read some of the comments on this forum about "who the real pilgrims are" But now I decided, I don't care what the judgmental people say. I will enjoy this and make the most out of it. It is not how far you walk and how you carry your things along the camino, it is what you get out of it. Life is too short, it may the the first or the last for me but this is going to be my best for now. Thank you for all the information and for the encouragement. God bless us all!!!

Don't let your excitement fade. My girlfriend and I did our first Camino this year. We walked every step SJPP to Santiago and more. When we left Portomarin we met a very nice couple from Ireland, close to our age perhaps a few years older or not? We would bump into them at cafes, and saw them for about 3 days. There daughter sent them on this Camino it was a long desire of theirs. She set them up to stay in some nice places, so they wouldn't have to carry to much gear. One of them had difficulty on the hills, a lot of difficulty in fact, the other had heavily bandaged knees. My girlfriend and I encouraged them, we told them how difficult it was for us when we started and wished we had lighter packs then, we lit candles at churches for them, prayed for them, and yes they made it to Santiago. There Camino and our Camino was one in the same, the km doesn't make you more or less of a pilgrim.
Deb and Rob

 

[BrianForbesColgate]

Just a thought ... What makes one a "Real Pilgrim" for walking from StJPdP to Santiago? Why StJPdP?
Shouldn't one have to walk all the way to Fisterra then Muxía to collect a shell from the ocean and all 4 pieces of paper?

 

[Bogong]

One last observation...
As I hobbled tonight into Burgos, I passed a Pilgrim, a REAL pilgrim, carrying a backpack, accompanied by a patient, caring companion.

This REAL pilgrim suffered from a former of muscular dystrophy, and his left leg, which didn't work at all, was dragged behind him by his twisted right leg, with his body weight borne by his metal crutches. I estimate he was maybe making 1km/hour.

Compared to him, on my two good feet, I hardly felt like a real pilgrim at all.

Jennifer,

I'm so glad that you referred to the parable of the workmen, who received the same payment/credit regardless of the hours employed. There is also the parable of the widow's offering in the Temple - she gave all she had while others offered what they had to spare of their riches.

This really gets to the crux of my concern. I have no problem with tying issuance of a Compostela to a distance requirement, but I do have misgivings at writing this requirement into its text. It does after all carry the imprimatur of the Cathedral. I would be mortified if, after walking 800 or so k, I found myself worshipping in the Cathedral next to a devoted elderly lady who had hobbled, in considerable pain and on crutches, from her home perhaps only a kilometre away, to pay her own homage as a pilgrim, and I had received a piece of paper which implied in some way I was a superior pilgrim to her.

Just as many laws in this land leave administrative matters to separate regulations, I would be much less uneasy about it all if the distance requirement was treated on an administrative level rather than being written into the body of a document issued under Church auspices.

I know this may be a controversial view, and I hope it doesn't infringe site rules, but I trust sincerely that they revisit the issue.

De Colores

Bogong

 

[Stuart Lennon]

And I think people are attributing way too much importance to the Compostela. It is, in essence, a souvenir. Yes, it is important to them but it is not an order of merit. Most people walk for themselves, for their own benefit.

Very wise words in my opinion.
I have not walked the Camino yet - and while the Compostela or Certificado will be a nice reminder, I am hoping that the real benefits will be internal.

 

[Bradypus]

I have a Queen's commission certificate. (Awarded after completing officer training in the British Army) that does have a value to me. It represents a large part of my life. It's actually framed and hangs in a corner at home out of sight.

By some admin cock-up I received two a couple of months apart! I also framed one. I know where it is and could lay my hands on it in seconds. There is a photo of me with my contemporaries at Sandhurst right beside it. I have not looked at either for years and they are not on display. For personal reasons my time with the British Army is something I prefer to forget and yet I cannot bring myself to dispose of these physical reminders of it. Strange. By contrast my Testimonium from the Via Francigena and two of my Compostelas (along with the sellos from each credencial) hang on my kitchen wall at the epicentre of my family life where I catch sight of them many times each day. I can see them now. For me that is proof that the value of such things lies in the memories and experience behind them and not in the scraps of paper themselves.

 

[Robo]

I totally get your view.

I was merely pointing out that we all value things like certificates differently and the 'commission' was just one of three examples I mentioned.

like you, my first Compostela is my most valued. Merely as a momento/reminder of a very important journey. .....

 

[Pabloke]

Frankly, I'm not able to say who is "the" pilgrim, but I do have an idea about who is not a pilgrim.

It's like mountaineering. You can climb the Mont Blanc in the Alps, does it make you a mountaineer? It all depends on how you do it. If you use an helicopter to reach the mountain top, I certainly wouldn't call you mountaineer.

Pilgrimage is not another word to name a trip, it implies some requirements.

 

[William Marques]

That is your definition - the church would disagree with you.

Everyone visiting a place of pilgrimage is a pilgrim no matter how they made the journey - If they did it for religious reasons.

We all have our own definitions and that is why how we make the journey means so much to some people and not as much to others.

 

[Pabloke]

That is your definition - the church would disagree with you.

Everyone visiting a place of pilgrimage is a pilgrim no matter how they made the journey - If they did it for religious reasons.

That is the key word, pilgrimage. It's not the same visiting a tomb than making a pilgrimage to a tomb. I guess the most of inhabitants of Santiago de Compostela have visited the cathedral, are they all pilgrims?

I don't think so.

And I don't think the church disagrees with me since its opinion is well stated on the Cathedral of Santiago's page.

Anyway I defend the right to do the Camino the way everyone wants to.

 

[MTtoCamino]

I have not stayed up on this thread just read the last few. My only thought is keep in mind that one of the most beautiful things about the Camino is the love one can develop for the humanity around you. From my perspective all the rest is personal journey. No one has the same personal journey. Never feel you must fit a certain mold.
Blessings to you all.
Keith

 

[Flem]

Know how you feel. I think it not good coming in buses to the bars ri get there stamps

To all the Real Pilgrims,

Just finish my first Camino from SJPDP to Santiago. I had my son meet up with me in Sarria. Unfortunately it rained the final 4 days of our walk. The first day, we had to have pass 200 pilgrims along the way. The next 4 days we found ourselves almost alone (a Good thing) and the brigade of Taxis passed us everyday. It was very disappointing to see the same faces in the pilgrims office getting compostella's that were using the Taxis. I didn't do The Way for a piece of paper, but i can't help feeling angry that these people will go home talking about the Camino as if they actually know what it is.

 

[Pingüigrino]

The Chatolic church had their own idea of what a pilgrimage is. The simple act of using certaing door, pray, take communion etc are what somebody must do to deserve indulgence. Never say the pilgrim MUST do it walking, ciclyng, riding etc. Never say how many kilometers must walk, neither where start. Those are things of the CAMINO, those are human rules. How many kmts must walk, the way to do it, how to be accepted in the albergues, how to get a certificate, no matters if walking for religious or touristic reasons.
When we walk the camino like pilgrims there are some rules we accept. When we walk this path like tourist, there are other rules we implicitly accept, When we "walk?" the Camino like tourist- grino...
Whe WALK the Camino imitating some way the archaic way medieval poor pilgrims did. ( Rich ones could be trasported by hand berth. Or simply paying a poor man for doing the pilgrimage. Nowadays if somebody only wants to get indulgence, he can fly to Santiago, take a taxi and ask the taxi driver for "Misericordia door" https://oficinadelperegrino.com/peregrinacion/indulgencia-plenaria/
Well, I`m not trying to start a conversation about religion, but I am sure no God will ask for any kind of "certificate" of doing our pilgrimage. That said, the motto I will like to remark is that when we cheat we are not cheating to God ( it could be impossible to do) but cheatin our sense of fair play, cheating our mates, cheating the human rules. Somebody could say "I dont accept your rules, I´m the maker of rules I follow". It is O.K. to follow your own rules, but don´t expect the aceptance of the others. If you are are "religious cheater" this is something between you and your God. He knows what to do.
But when cheating human rules, that is something between you and the rest of persons whon have been disturbed with your behavior. God will punish His followers´s cheats. The way persons punish the cheating agains themselves are varied. One of those ways is contempt.
Buen Camino to you all, honest people.

 

[urbanhiker]

Pinguigrino,
I'm curious about the "Human Rules" you speak of? Who were the lucky one's who wrote the "Human Rules"? I've done a lot of research on the Camino and have never come across the "Human Rules", nor have I ever read anywhere about cheaters. I've only heard the word "cheaters" when people express their personal opinion. One cannot really cheat others on the Camino, nor can one really cheat themselves. Aside from stealing or any act of crime, we all decide how we are doing the Camino. We are not cheating. We've decide upon something that works for us. To think that someone who goes by the "Human Rules" is necessarily one of the "Honest People" is a bit presumptuous. And who are we to decide anyway? To think I, or anyone else, can judge someone on the Camino who doesn't do apply the "Human Rules", whatever they are, is a bit much. I've done over five Camino and have mostly just met good people. How they decide to do the Camino was none of my business. They were still good people...and I imagine honest as well.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

urbanhiker, I agree with the sentiments underlying your post and also with those of Pinguigrino who while not being an English speaker writes in that language far better than I could ever manage to do in Spanish, so let us please try to see what is at the crux of this matter. Often on the Way good people travel with good people and by their presence bring out the best in those around them, there is much personal evidence to say that by the end of the Camino we have 'ironed out' some of our inherent self-absorption and learned how to enjoy the company of folk we might never have socialised with in any other situation. It teaches tolerance. That tolerance finds one of its best expressions in the numerous donativo albergues along the various routes, some owned by former pilgrims who have set aside making money to serve those who journey to Santiago. In the thread 'How much should your donation be?' the OP has highlighted the plight of one donativo albergue noted for its owners hospitality. It seems that some people try to skip off without paying anything, and those who can afford to stay in hotels before and after think that a donation of under 5 euros is a sufficient recompense for a proper bed (not bunks), showers, afternoon beers, three course meal with wine and other local drinks. We can walk without ever encountering any of this exploitative, sometimes criminal behaviour by those calling themselves pilgrims, we can learn about it and cross to the other side of the road because it has nothing to do with us, because we are walking our 'own camino'. But I would hope that, being pilgrims, we recognise that the ethos of the Way, as it is expressed (not written anywhere) in helping those who become injured or fall ill along the walk, assisting in times of financial distress or other emergency extends itself to communicating to future pilgrims we meet when we return home a need to be considerate. Some people are treating the Camino as nothing more than a cheap holiday and taking advantage of donativo albergues in the process. There is nothing to say that they shouldn't do this except an (unwritten) moral code, the social contract that can bind us together and help us to live in relative harmony despite our many differences. I think this is what Pinguigrino was speaking about and I thank him for it.

 

[William Marques]

Perhaps people expect too much of their fellow travellers on the way. Perhaps they are right to. But the people on the Caminos are just the same as those wherever you live. There are a few saints and there are many sinners, though most of the sins will be little ones. Seb is right about one thing - the Caminos teach us tolerance

 

[Robo]

But the people on the Caminos are just the same as those wherever you live. There are a few saints and there are many sinners, though most of the sins will be little ones. Seb is right about one thing - the Caminos teach us tolerance

Not sure I agree.....

The % of 'dick heads' on the Camino is far lower than at home in my experience

 

[Pingüigrino]

Pinguigrino,
I'm curious about the "Human Rules" you speak of? Who were the lucky one's who wrote the "Human Rules"? I've done a lot of research on the Camino and have never come across the "Human Rules", nor have I ever read anywhere about cheaters. I've only heard the word "cheaters" when people express their personal opinion. One cannot really cheat others on the Camino, nor can one really cheat themselves. Aside from stealing or any act of crime, we all decide how we are doing the Camino. We are not cheating. We've decide upon something that works for us. To think that someone who goes by the "Human Rules" is necessarily one of the "Honest People" is a bit presumptuous. And who are we to decide anyway? To think I, or anyone else, can judge someone on the Camino who doesn't do apply the "Human Rules", whatever they are, is a bit much. I've done over five Camino and have mostly just met good people. How they decide to do the Camino was none of my business. They were still good people...and I imagine honest as well.

Hi urbanhiker. You are asking about writen rules, about lucky ones who wrote those rules, about research...Lets me relate any examples about what I call cheating.

A older lady enter to the albergue. She seems tired, miserable, poor, unhappy. Everybody there are helping her. The youngers changing their beds with her, serving her her dinner, caring, paying for their dinner... The hospitalero receives a phone call warning him this lady is an abbusive one, who is using her apparence to receiving special deal, to be treated etc. She is in perfect healt situation have not finantial problems, she have been spending money at bars and good restaurants along the way.

A group of hikers arriving to a Albergue. The hospitalero tell them he will switch the ligths of at ten and switch the ligts on at 6,30 in the morning. It will be not allowed to geeting out of the bed before 6.00 to respecto the rest of others. Thats are the RULES of this Albergue. Next morning, at 5.45, when the hospitalero start preparing breakfast, see a broken window. Later he is been told the hikers left the sleeping room at 4.45, and they disturbed all the pilgrims rest.

The third of June (four days ago) a male pilgrim and female pilgrim arrived to a small donation albergue. Its nine in the evening, all the pilgrims have finished their dinner. I asked them about the late arriving, and they told me a story about been lost all the day long. A very strange story. I saw in their credentials, that they were sleeping two days before at the same albergue they said they where sleeping the nigth before. They have their dinner, the dinner I cooked for them, Asked for wine, and I told them they have drinked the last wine I had . They left the albergue, went to a bar and keep drinking. They arrived back to the allbergue at twelve, making lot of noises, and making love vigorously at the showers. Late in the morning they are tired, said they were sick and try to stay at the albergue for one or two more days. I said no, and they left cursing me. Later this same day two young female pilgrims arrives to the albergue talking stories about this couple. They where sleeping for two days at the previous albergue saying they were waiting for a money transfer, and left letting a unpaid bill.

Those and many other examples are what I call cheating. Those are the broken written and unwritten rules about I am speaking. It,s because those behaviors, in many towns dont like PILGRIMS, because all of us are suspect of bad behavior. This is the reason I ( and many others like me) dont like false pilgrims, low cost tourists, rogues etc, and we call them tourist grinos. All of us are killing the camino, but those are killing it willingly. And the way they are doing " their camino" is my busines. Yes it is.

I would like to speak a much better english to be allowed to express my feelings about this topic, because I am afraid I cant express my feeligs with enougth precission.

Buen camino to you all honest people.

P.D. When somebody feel the compulsion for explaining their behavior to others, maybe ( only maybe) this person need to do a serious reflect about it. If someboy feel others are judging him, and feel a little bit of shame...then, maybe...

 

[Deleted member 3000]

It is off topic, but how does this thread not get locked?? It is clearly the longest-lived thread on the topic. I offer my congratulations on its longevity.

 

[Castilian]

I've done a lot of research on the Camino and have never come across the "Human Rules",

Does it mean you think the requirements (rules) to get a Compostela are created by non-human beings? Or did you never come accross the Compostela and the requirements (rules) to get it? Or have you done a lot of research on the Camino but not about the Camino?

nor have I ever read anywhere about cheaters.

Time to make more reading?

 

[urbanhiker]

Castillian,
Okay, I will give you walking the last hundred km and perhaps two stamps a day during that time, but even the two stamps a day is not really the case. But that really doesn't speak to the greater issue: being the judge on how someone should do the Camino. Determining who is honest and who isn't. I certainly don't feel like I am in a position to judge someone I don't know, and especially someone I know nothing about. Do You?

...and by the way, could you send me the link to the "Human Rules" on the Camino?

 

[Robo]

Hi urbanhiker. You are asking about writen rules, about lucky ones who wrote those rules, about research...Lets me relate any examples about what I call cheating.

A older lady enter to the albergue. She seems tired, miserable, poor, unhappy. Everybody there are helping her. The youngers changing their beds with her, serving her her dinner, caring, paying for their dinner... The hospitalero receives a fone call warning him this lady is an abbusive one, who is using her apparence to receiving special deal, to be treated etc. She is in perfect healt situation have not finantial problems, she have been spending money at bars and good restaurants along the way.

A group of hikers arriving to a Albergue. The hospitalero tell them he will switch the ligths of at ten and switch the ligts on at 6,30 in the morning. It will be not allowed to geeting out of the bed before 6.00 to respecto the rest of others. Thats are the RULES of this Albergue. Next morning, at 5.45, when the hospitalero start preparing breakfast, see a broken window. Later he is been told the hikers left the sleeping room at 4.45, and they disturbed all the pilgrims rest.

The third of June (four days ago) a male pilgrim and female pilgrim arrived to a small donation albergue. Its nine in the evening, all the pilgrims have finished their dinner. I asked them about the late arriving, and they told me a story about been lost all the day long. A very strange story. I saw in their credentials, that they were sleeping two days before at the same albergue they said they where sleeping the nigth before. They have their dinner, the dinner I cooked for them, Asked for wine, and I told them they have drinked the last wine I had . They left the albergue, went to a bar and keep drinking. They arrived back to the allbergue at twelve, making lot of noises, and making love vigorously at the showers. Late in the morning they are tired, said they were sick and try to stay at the albergue for one or two more days. I said no, and they left cursing me. Later this same day two young female pilgrims arrives to the albergue talking stories about this couple. They where sleeping for two days at the previous albergue saying the were waiting for a money transfer, and left letting a unpaid bill.

Those and many other examples are what I call cheating. Those are the broken written and unwritten rules about I am speaking. It,s because those beaviors, in many towns dont like PILGRIMS, because all of us are suspect of bad beavior. This is the reason I ( and many others like me) dont like false pilgrims, low cost tourists, rogues etc, and we call them tourist grinos. All of us are killing the camino, but those are killing it willingly. And the way they are doing " their camino" is my busines. Yes it is.

I would like to speak a much better english to be allowed to express my feelings about this topic, because I am afraid I cant express my feeligs with enougth precission.

Buen camino to you all honest people.

P.D. When somebody feel the compulsion for explaining their behavior to other, maybe ( only maybe) this person need to do a serious reflect about it. If someboy feel others are judging him, and feel a little bit of shame...then, maybe...

This is shocking behaviour isn't it ? Or maybe I am just very naïve Really sad that Albergue operators have to put up with that kind of BS.

Pity that Albergues don't use a feedback score system. You know, like eBay and other online sales sites, where the buyer and the seller give each other a feedback score.

So to get into an Albergue you need a Credential PLUS a feedback score of over 6

 

[Pingüigrino]

This is shocking behaviour isn't it ? Or maybe I am just very naïve Really sad that Albergue operators have to put up with that kind of BS.

Pity that Albergues don't use a feedback score system. You know, like eBay and other online sales sites, where the buyer and the seller give each other a feedback score.

So to get into an Albergue you need a Credential PLUS a feedback score of over 6

Hi Robo. You know one of the most important things of the Camino is confidence. Confidence about others pilgrims, about hospitaleros, about the Camino itself. We all pilgrims know the Camino provides and we walk in the confidence of it. I would not like to bureaucraciting? the Camino, it would be awful. ( However, sometimes hospitaleros notify ourselves)
Most of the people in the camino, call them tourists or call them pilgrims, are good and respectful persons. Not cheaters in any sense. Many of the "cheaters" are doing it being not aware of their behaviour.(In my very first Camino, I where a cheater, and did´nt know, When a pilgrim showed me his point of view I changed my mode, no shame on it)
Many of those cheaters may think the camino is a Low Cost pintouresque resource, not knowing the Camino is not a film, a novel, or naive trail. They dont know the Camino is a heritage of humanity, mainly due their spiritual sense.
If we add together ignorance, publicity, self indulgence with a little bit of selfishness, arrogance and disrespect, is easy to find one of those tourist-grinos who think nobody can blame them for "doing theirs own camino". Please don't misunderstand me. I´m NOT saying ALL the people who said they are doing their own camino are cheaters. I would NEVER say that, I will never do it. Many of us ( myself too) usually do our own Camino, and this do not mean disrespecting the rules, the Camino or others.
But alwais I found a cheater (in flagrante delicto) they ALWAIS said " I´m doing my own Camino, nobody can judge me" If somebody point out they are using Pilgrims facilities, annoying pilgrims (or tourists) or simply asking for anything they do not deserve ( call it compostela, free meal or bed, whatever) they usually call those persons judgmentals, meddlesome or directly, fascist.
That said, my experience tells 90% of persons doing the Camino are very respectable persons. No speaking about tour-operators tourist, they are cheated BY the tour operator itsel. (I heared some time ago a guide warning them about going to no catered by the company bars or restaurants. It could be dangerous she said, In Melide, the center of this wild Galicia! Maybe they could be beaten by a giant cooked octopus.)

Buen Camino to you all, honest people.

 

[Deleted member 36903]

urbanhiker, while we may challenge the semantics or expression of people posting on this thread, I assume that there is a general agreement that the 'real pilgrim' is a mythical creature, usually a subject discussed after a group has consumed one too many glasses of wine/beer. The considerate pilgrim/the good-mannered pilgrim, on the other hand, is a reality (as you have noted) but not everyone walking the Camino falls into that category You use the 'boo!' words 'judging' and 'judgement' in several of your posts, but is it possible that you would use your own judgement (and possibly make assumptions about the person) if you are travelling in a strange city and have been warned about the pickpockets there. I like unwritten human rules; human conscience is predicated on unwritten human rules that we have internalised in order to be able to live among our fellow human beings without causing or suffering harm. Some people have not internalised these rules; they act as if they have no conscience and no social obligations to others. Being confronted with such behaviour can be a little like witnessing an adult behave like a yet to be toilet-trained infant. We wonder how this can be? This is especially so on the Camino where living so closely cheek by jowl, we rightly - or naively, depending on your perspective - expect those with whom we are sharing the experience of walking the Way to act as if they were conscious of being among other people and to act appropriately. Respecting the human rules, written (for example, as on the credencial) and unwritten (on our conscience, our moral compass) is what marks out our humanity.

 

[Felipe]

I live in a city with a renowned sanctuary (Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe) that is visited by more than 2 million people (yes, you read it well) every 11 and 12th of December. All are called “(real) pilgrims”, although most come by car, bus and planes. On the other side, there are thousands that come by foot, bicycle or horse (they are so many that police close many avenues to car traffic). It is considered as particularly worthy. They come mostly in groups (by parish, brotherhoods), and follows rules, some mandatory, others more as "recommendations": they should obey the indications of “chiefs” or leaders, men go apart from women; dining in restaurants is frowned upon, they should cook their own food, sleep in parishes, on the fields or in albergues, etc. There are some people that want to go with the group, but for different reasons (medical, for instance) can't follow all the directives; they go with the "jefe" and explain the situation.
My point is that being a pilgrim generally (not only in the Camino) has to do more with a pious or spiritual intention when visiting a sanctuary, but doing an organized pilgrimage (with a network of public albergues, for example) implies following some explicit (as stated in the credencial) rules. If a person does not like them, well, there are other means (cars, buses, hostals, hotels) for going to a sanctuary (as Santiago) and still be considered a pilgrim.

 

[Castilian]

...and by the way, could you send me the link to the "Human Rules" on the Camino?

I don't think it's necessary. As soon as I pointed out an example, you realized about their existence. I could point out more examples but I think it's more fun if you think about it and find them by yourself.

Okay, I will give you walking the last hundred km and perhaps two stamps a day during that time, but even the two stamps a day is not really the case. But that really doesn't speak to the greater issue: being the judge on how someone should do the Camino.

In order to get a Compostela you should walk or ride a horse the last 100 kms or ride a bike the last 200 kms (among other requirements). That doesn't imply judging how someone should do the Camino. People are free to make it fulfilling the requirements to get a Compostela or in any other way.

Determining who is honest and who isn't. I certainly don't feel like I am in a position to judge someone I don't know, and especially someone I know nothing about. Do You?

I didn't judge anyone on this thread. And I do my best to not judge anyone (and that includes people I don't know as well as people I know) wherever I am.

 

[Peregrinopaul]

My point is that being a pilgrim generally (not only in the Camino) has to do more with a pious or spiritual intention when visiting a sanctuary

A wise and interesting post, Felipe.

 

[DurhamParish]

My point is that being a pilgrim generally (not only in the Camino) has to do more with a pious or spiritual intention when visiting a sanctuary, but doing an organized pilgrimage (with a network of public albergues, for example) implies following some explicit (as stated in the credencial) rules. If a person does not like them, well, there are other means (cars, buses, hostals, hotels) for going to a sanctuary (as Santiago) and still be considered a pilgrim.

Amen!

 

[Pingüigrino]

I live in a city with a renowned sanctuary (Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe) that is visited by more than 2 million people (yes, you read it well) every 11 and 12th of December. All are called “(real) pilgrims”, although most come by car, bus and planes. On the other side, there are thousands that come by foot, bicycle or horse (they are so many that police close many avenues to car traffic). It is considered as particularly worthy. They come mostly in groups (by parish, brotherhoods), and follows rules, some mandatory, others more as "recommendations": they should obey the indications of “chiefs” or leaders, men go apart from women; dining in restaurants is frowned upon, they should cook their own food, sleep in parishes, on the fields or in albergues, etc. There are some people that want to go with the group, but for different reasons (medical, for instance) can't follow all the directives; they go with the "jefe" and explain the situation.
My point is that being a pilgrim generally (not only in the Camino) has to do more with a pious or spiritual intention when visiting a sanctuary, but doing an organized pilgrimage (with a network of public albergues, for example) implies following some explicit (as stated in the credencial) rules. If a person does not like them, well, there are other means (cars, buses, hostals, hotels) for going to a sanctuary (as Santiago) and still be considered a pilgrim.

Hi Felipe. Is the same here, in Santiago. If you want to be a Pilgrim in Santiago Chatedral, you can go by taxi, no problem with this, is only a religious matter.
But if you are doing the pilgrimage ON THE CAMINO, ( Call it religious, spiritual, others humans reasons) wanting to deserve the compostela, the rules are doing it walking, riding a bike, riding a horse or SAILING. Yes you heard well, by sea, if you do it in a sailing or row-boat.
Buen Camino to you all honest people.
Un saludo especial para ti desde España, hermano Mexicano. ¡Ultreia!

 

[Felipe]

But if you are doing the pilgrimage ON THE CAMINO, ( Call it religious, spiritual, others humans reasons) wanting to deserve the compostela, the rules are doing it walking, riding a bike, riding a horse or SAILING. Yes you heard well, by sea, if you do it in a sailing or row-boat.

Actually, the "Hespérides", an oceanographic ship of the Spanish Navy (with the blessing of the Federación de Asociaciones del Camino, so it is "official") inaugurated last year the longest Camino to Compostela, from its base in the Antarctica. A marker was placed there, with a 14.075 km distance (!). An especial credencial was delivered to the sailors (who seem to be very proud in the photo) to be stamped in such unusual places as Ushuaia, in Argentina. The purpose was to sail back to Spain, and walk to Compostela either from Pontevedra (Galicia) or the Cartagena, Mediterranean Navy shipyard.
I liked very much this initiative.
See here (sorry, only in Spanish).

 

[VNwalking]

the "Hespérides", an oceanographic ship of the Spanish Navy (with the blessing of the Federación de Asociaciones del Camino, so it is "official") inaugurated last year the longest Camino to Compostela, from its base in the Antarctica. A marker was placed there, with a 14.075 km distance (!)

Now THAT'S a pilgrimage! And we think walking from France is a long journey. This is a wonderful example of how being a pilgrim is about intention not about conveyance.
Would love to be in the Cathedral when those good pilgrims' successful completion is announced... "XX Peregrinos form Antarctica!"

 

[VNwalking]

Yes you heard well, by sea, if you do it in a sailing or row-boat.

You learn something every day, if you're lucky. Thanks, Pingüigrino.
And...now we all know that by taking a plane we're definitely 'cheating'!
(And definitely joking...)

 

[Pingüigrino]

Actually, the "Hespérides", an oceanographic ship of the Spanish Navy (with the blessing of the Federación de Asociaciones del Camino, so it is "official") inaugurated last year the longest Camino to Compostela, from its base in the Antarctica. A marker was placed there, with a 14.075 km distance (!). An especial credencial was delivered to the sailors (who seemed to be very proud in the photo) to be stamped in such unusual places as Ushuaia, in Argentina. The purpose was to sail back to Spain, and walk to Compostela either from Pontevedra (Galicia) or the Cartagena, Mediterranean Navy shipyard.
I liked very much this initiative.
See here (sorry, only in Spanish).

You could see those signs with the shell, the yellow arrow, and distance at all Spanish camps in the former Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afganistan, Irak, Mali, etc. Not really official, but many spanish soldiers started their pilgrimage, the same day they returned safe at home.

 

[Castilian]

You learn something every day, if you're lucky.

For more info: www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/good-news-for-sailors-and-alike-sailing-is-now-accepted-as-another-valid-way-to-make-the-camino.39742

 

[MovingForward]

Congratulations to your completed pilgrimage BillyB! I hope you and your son had a great time


To the people passing by in taxis - yes, they might have been the kind who were simply too lazy to walk or didn't want to get wet because they found it too uncomfortable.

Or, they might have been sick or injured and in pain, maybe crying their eyes out because they couldn't walk, and recognizing the pilgrims their taxi passed, feeling ashamed because they knew how badly those would think about them.

You simply can't know who belongs to the one group, and who to the other.

So, don't judge – just enjoy your walk, other people's business is other people's business, you won't change it anyway. It is as it is.

Buen Camino (it never ends).

I agree with you wholeheartedly and add that as pilgrims we do not judge lest we be judged

 

[VNwalking]

A google search about something totally unrelated yielded this amongst the list of things to read:
http://philpapers.org/rec/REDPEA
A bizarre but interesting juxtaposition--exploring how the sacred and the profane can get confused and entangled in our materialist society. Pilgrimage has different meanings for different people, obviously!

 

[Juanajoanna]

I think what bothers some of us is this:

We do not see that pilgrimage is necessarily a hair-shirted self denying experience, some may wish to undertake it in that manner but others will not.

We understand that all pilgrimage routes and destinations are "tainted" by merchants seeking to provide what pilgrims want.

We understand that in history pilgrimage was not always the "holy" experience one might wish it had been and the church, like the merchants, took advantage of this by selling indulgences.

There is no pride on the Camino; whether we walked 1000 or 100 km does not matter, whether we walked or rode a bike or horse does not matter, whether we spent more or less than another pilgrim does not matter, whether we walked in balmy sun or freezing wind and rain does not matter, whether we carried a heavier pack than the next man does not matter. What is in our hearts matters and nobody but ourselves can know what that is.

We see people trying to impose their own definition on the Camino and that rankles

Very well said!

 

[Pingüigrino]

Llegan desde Irlanda a golpe de remo
Emiliano Mouzo. A Coruña / La Voz, 24 de junio de 2016. Actualizado a las 11:54 h.
Todo un despliegue de esfuerzo sobrehumano, de bravura marinera y de devoción al apóstol Santiago. Esas fueron las condiciones que hicieron que cinco irlandeses, Danny Sheehy, Liam Holden, Brendan Moriarty, Glen Hansard y Brendan Begley, de entre 52 y 64 años, decidiesen embarcarse en un bote tradicional irlandés y a base de golpe de remo navegasen por etapas desde el puerto de Dublín hasta la dársena de A Coruña, cumpliendo así con su promesa a Santiago apóstol, de llegar hasta la catedral realizando el Camino de Santiago por vía marítima.
El verano del 2014 se subieron a bordo del Naomh Goesnait, de tan solo 7 metros de eslora y 2,5 de manga y construido en madera y en lienzo, sí en el paño que utilizan los artistas para pintar sus obras. Los cinco robinsones navegaron durante cinco semanas hasta que llegaron a la Bretaña francesa. «Allí decidimos que nuestra travesía llegaba a su primera etapa», contó Liam Holden, uno de los dos tripulantes que construyeron la pequeña nave.
Pesca y tiendas de campaña
Cuenta Liam que su navegación la realizaron «costeando, pegados a tierra e intentábamos encontrar en las cartas náuticas una ensenada, una pequeña cala, una playa amable, un diminuto puerto o muelle para hacer escala cuando la noche se nos venía encima». Una vez logrado el objetivo «montábamos nuestras tiendas de campaña y hacíamos la cena y la comida del día siguiente, utilizando, sobre todo el pescado que nosotros mismos capturábamos durante la navegación», contó este marinero.
Después volvieron a sus casas, dejando el barco a resguardo en tierras francesas. Y se aplicaron en sus tareas cotidianas. «Uno es poeta, otro es escritor y Glen Hansard es el vocalista del afamado grupo musical irlandés The Frames y además actor de cine», manifestó Liam.
Este tripulante de la diminuta nave «protagonizó la película Once, una cinta musical irlandesa, rodada en el 2007 en Dublín, y Glen se llevó el Oscar a la mejor canción original», contó Danny Sheehy.
Llegó el verano del 2015. Los cinco atrevidos navegantes se vistieron de traje de aguas y botas y volvieron a embarcar en el Naomh Goesnait. A pesar de no tener cámara de derrota, los marineros llevaban cartas náuticas plastificadas para marcar el rumbo de la proa de su cayuco. «Decidimos que nuestras cinco semanas veraniegas tenían que ser suficientes para llegar desde la Bretaña francesa a San Sebastián». Y lo lograron.
Durante la navegación «nos encontramos con grandes buques, con pequeños veleros y les podíamos ofrecer con nuestros instrumentos melodías celtas, y lo mismo hacíamos cuando arribábamos
a algún puerto del Atlántico», narró Liam Holden.
Durante la travesía pudieron observar el mar en toda su intensidad: «La belleza del océano en forma de amaneceres hermosos, de atardeceres únicos, de navegar acompañados por los majestuosos saltos de los delfines». Pero también se encontraron con su bravura: «Vientos, mares fuertes que obligaban a un sobreesfuerzo y a sangrar por nuestras manos agarrados a los remos».
Ahora, a por la compostela
El barco volvió a quedar en seco en San Sebastián. Y allí estuvo durante un año. A principios del mes de junio, los cinco intrépidos marinos volvieron a asir los remos y bogaron con fuerza hacia A Coruña.
Ayer, al mediodía viraron en el morro del dique de abrigo. Hasta allí navegó una zódiac de la Cruz Roja para recibirlos. Les acompañó hasta uno de los pantalanes de Marina Coruña. Al llegar levantaron los remos y alzaron sus voces con júbilo. Mañana caminarán hasta Santiago. Abrazarán el apóstol y recibirán la compostela. El Camino marítimo está logrado, «con mucho esfuerzo y con las manos destrozadas, pero mereció la pena», contó Liam.

Newspaper article, in spanish about five irish pilgrims arriving to Coruña rowing theirs boat. Later walked the way to Santiago to "hug the Apostle" and recibe the Compostela. Tell them something like " Dont be judgementhal, I´m doing MY own camino" cheaters, .

Bravo for those TRUE pilgrims.
Buen Camino to you all, honest people.

 

[PaddyCamino]

I'll be starting from St Jean on the 14-Aug-2016. However, as I only get 12 days vacation from work, I expect to only get only as far as Burgos and train the rest of the way. I really wish I had time to do the whole Camino!! If I like what I see, I will plan another trip for sure and give myself 25-30 days.

 

[trecile]

I'll be starting from St Jean on the 14-Aug-2016. However, as I only get 12 days vacation from work, I expect to only get only as far as Burgos and train the rest of the way. I really wish I had time to do the whole Camino!! If I like what I see, I will plan another trip for sure and give myself 25-30 days.

There is no "whole Camino" unless you are talking about starting from your front door.

 

[bunnymac]

There is no "whole Camino" unless you are talking about starting from your front door.

I start almost all my journeys from my front door. )

 

[marian55]

If other people put their big boots on what you consider sacred that hurts. If somebody feels authentic anger, pain or anything he or she should find friends here to find comfort and peace. And I hope that with what's said this peace has been found. Also I do think, that the old pathways deserve to be defended in their sacredness in the wide sense.

 

[marbuck]

My husband and I are starting "our camino" from Sarria on June 4th. We were so excited that we got the opportunity to do what we can.

Good on you, enjoy your Camino.

 

[Debora]

Okay...you only have 12 days...so here's my advice. Take your time. Enjoy it. Don't rush...that's how we spend most of our days - rushing. It's not about how far you get. So, you might get to Burgos but if don't that's okay too. Have a great time. Buen Camino.

 

[lovingkindness]

There is no "whole Camino" unless you are talking about starting from your front door.

... must one have a front door to walk the camino?

 

[SYates]

... must one have a front door to walk the camino?

Yes and No >big smiles< but you started one day at 'a' front door, didn't you?
Buen Camino, SY