F
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Thank you for your calm and reasoned post.
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Thank you for your calm and reasoned post.Sorry, but some of these posts have been deleted. Debates about proper punishment, forgiveness and speculation about motive are just not appropriate here. I know it's difficult, but we really want to limit this discussion to facts about the judicial proceedings. There is too much unknown and too much raw emotion.
And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.I gather that, unlike some had announced here, the family did not attend. And who van blame them. Volunteers at Pilgrim House got media accreditation and videotaped the mass for the family and Faith read a prayer sent by Denise's mother for the occasion. How kind of the family to do something like this, probably for other pilgrims.
It is easier not to feel, to stay aloof, to try to stick to "just the facts, ma'am". The truth is---this is just all so tremendously sad. Heartfelt sympathy and prayers to all.And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.
And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.
Post arrest news necessarily will contain details, some of which may be disturbing to the sensitive, but some of which contain information that is quite valuable to pilgrims with safety concerns. While it has not been definitively determined in this case, it seems to be a confirmed fact that false yellow arrows were painted by the perpetrator for a series of crimes against pilgrims, and I find that quite useful and practical information. Others may find it disturbing.
To find news stories, I suggest using a Google search of news in Chrome. Look for recent articles. There are many stories now, and the list is not date sorted. When you access them, you can use Google Translate for English. The translation will make little distinction between things like "him" and "her." For Galician news stories, Translate may not auto-detect Gallego. You will get a better translation from Galician if you manually select it for the source.
I assume that anyone who goes through these steps is adult enough to handle the resulting information, something that may have been beyond their capability when an actual link was provided. Be forewarned that murder is a disturbing event.
My thoughts & a pray go to Denise family and they will have the comfort of finally knowing where she is
She will now be at peace
Post arrest news necessarily will contain details, some of which may be disturbing to the sensitive, but some of which contain information that is quite valuable to pilgrims with safety concerns. While it has not been definitively determined in this case, it seems to be a confirmed fact that false yellow arrows were painted by the perpetrator for a series of crimes against pilgrims, and I find that quite useful and practical information. Others may find it disturbing.
Thank you again for trying to keep this thread on topic (as described in the first post) and for providing information. I read today in the local media which you recommended earlier that some people take the road to a scenic village instead of following the main camino and that there is a possibility of getting lost afterwards.for my money, the forum ought to be a place where people can get reliable, balanced information.
Falcon, I don't dispute your claim that there may be valuable information for pilgrims with safety concerns in a lot of the emerging news reports. But to take your specific point here as an example, I think you have posted a very incomplete and fright-inducing statement. I have refrained from posting information about the "false arrows" issue, because the press reports are imprecise and inconsistent. But what is the most likely case is that these arrows were arrows that took pilgrims, NOT off the Camino Francés, but rather off an unofficial, poorly marked detour to Castrillo de Polvazares.
Those additional details are crucial, I think, to give a real sense of what we are potentially talking about. We are probably not talking about a detour off the Camino Francés, pilgrims don´t have to worry every time they see a yellow arrow that it may have a sinister purpose. For people who are not familiar with the Camino in general and the detour to Castrillo in particular, your post creates alarms that are disproportionate to what the actual facts on the ground are tending to bear out. I think we should be really careful about what we say on the forum. People can read what they read in the press, but for my money, the forum ought to be a place where people can get reliable, balanced information. Buen camino, Laurie
To clarify peregrina2000's comments about the detour route to Castrillo de Polvazares, the attached JPEG shows the regular camino route ( marked with a yellow arrow) and the detour route ( marked with a white arrow). The detour route itself is aside the provincial road LE-142 going west from Castrillo de Polvazares. Pilgrims that decide to take this detour will head straight to Castrillo de Polvazares, whereby the regular camino bypasses Castrillo de Polvazares. Once at Castrillo de Polvazares, pilgrims would normally head south along LE-142 and rejoin the camino and then head west to Santa Catalina.
It is unclear if the detour route is marked at all but a review of Google StreetView suggests that there is a foot trail beside the road.
As mentioned in my earlier post above, the detour route is marked, if not as clearly as it could be. In fact the marked detour takes you through Castrillo itself and back to the main Camino route along tracks across country, not via the road except on the way to Castrillo from Murias (no footpath beside that road, and with fast traffic doing a lot of overtaking it is quite dangerous). It is marked as a "recommended" detour in Brierley's guide (blue dots), along with directions which for once are clearer than the actual route markings. We took that route in May and stayed overnight in Castrillo. Not a choice I'd make again, it's an odd place, and on a weekend was deserted and there were no bars (or none open), just a few hotel/restaurants. We left at first light and were glad to find our way back to the main Camino.
(EDIT: There's also a municipal albergue in Castrillo, at the top end of the village, which is signposted from the main road)
Thank you again for trying to keep this thread on topic (as described in the first post) and for providing information. I read today in the local media which you recommended earlier that some people take the road to a scenic village instead of following the main camino and that there is a possibility of getting lost afterwards.
It's difficult to know what one is allowed to write on this forum and in this thread. I get the feeling that the posts that are deemed appropriate are expressions of grief and compassion. This is not meant as criticism, far from it. Perhaps this thread should be closed or at least the title should be changed to reflect this? Or take up the suggestion of allowing only moderator contributions or pre-approved contributions?
Good job, Laurie. And not an easy job. Well done, and thank you.So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details.
Thank you for taking the lead on this thread, Laurie.Hi, Kathar1na. I appreciate that things are really confusing. And as someone who only became a moderator recently, this has really been a baptism by fire. We are trying to walk such a fine line -- to be sensitive to what we hear as the overwhelming forum membership desire to keep the gruesome out of the forum, while at the same time having a place to get updates on what is going on. I know there's potentially a lot of overlap there and so it may seem to some that we are being censors or that we think we are the sole reliable source for information, but that is really not our intent. We considered the options you mention above and decided they were too restrictive and heavy handed. So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details. In hindsight, it does seem kind of ridiculous that there are almost as many posts on this thread about what should be allowed to be posted on this thread as there are posts about the topic of the thread.
I know in Australia that if you are declared mentally impaired with a crime, it is often a life sentence even if the crime carries a much small jail term. With fewer rights of appeal. Here they definitely do not walk "free". So I think the legal system is more than likely to remove the perpetrator from the community permanently one way or another.what worries me is this leading to him (the accused )building a case of diminished responsibility and some years down the line walking free....like so many we here about..
sane or insane ..competent or incompetent this can never be allowed to happen again or the accused being able to be in a position to be able to hurt anybody else...
Hi, Kathar1na. I appreciate that things are really confusing. And as someone who only became a moderator recently, this has really been a baptism by fire. We are trying to walk such a fine line -- to be sensitive to what we hear as the overwhelming forum membership desire to keep the gruesome out of the forum, while at the same time having a place to get updates on what is going on. I know there's potentially a lot of overlap there and so it may seem to some that we are being censors or that we think we are the sole reliable source for information, but that is really not our intent. We considered the options you mention above and decided they were too restrictive and heavy handed. So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details. In hindsight, it does seem kind of ridiculous that there are almost as many posts on this thread about what should be allowed to be posted on this thread as there are posts about the topic of the thread.
I know in Australia that if you are declared mentally impaired with a crime, it is often a life sentence even if the crime carries a much small jail term. With fewer rights of appeal. Here they definitely do not walk "free". So I think the legal system is more than likely to remove the perpetrator from the community permanently one way or another.
I am walking with my brother in October, we will both carry a shell with her name on it and leave them at Santiago for her memory. She is in all our hearts.If I'm ever so lucky as to walk the Camino again, so will I. What a lovely idea.
Dominique
Distraught, thinking of Denise's family, may she rest in peace.
I may be inaccurate in supposing this, but the somewhat upsetting possibility/fact that false arrows were painted to bring pilgrims closer to the suspect's property, to me seems to mean there were more pilgrims than just Denise walking this way, and as far as we can tell, most have turned out alright.
Hi, Betty,
Though I haven't seen specific corroboration of this, the false arrows were not on the Camino Frances itself (see earlier posts by me and by GettingThere). They appear to have been placed to take people off a poorly marked and very lightly traveled detour to Castrillo de Polvazares, a touristy little town a few km off the Camino Frances.
Of the many people leaving Astorga on a daily basis, only a handful, or maybe even less, take the detour to Castrillo. Getting to Castrillo and getting back to the Camino from there are not routes that any people who mark the camino would pay attention to. So they were undoubtedly haphazard and unchecked. I think that's the only reason the accused was able to get away with putting false arrows up. Buen camino, Laurie
Hi, Betty,
Though I haven't seen specific corroboration of this, the false arrows were not on the Camino Frances itself (see earlier posts by me and by GettingThere). They appear to have been placed to take people off a poorly marked and very lightly traveled detour to Castrillo de Polvazares, a touristy little town a few km off the Camino Frances.
Of the many people leaving Astorga on a daily basis, only a handful, or maybe even less, take the detour to Castrillo. Getting to Castrillo and getting back to the Camino from there are not routes that any people who mark the camino would pay attention to. So they were undoubtedly haphazard and unchecked. I think that's the only reason the accused was able to get away with putting false arrows up. Buen camino, Laurie
Did a search of the Forum and not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this information so do correct me if necessary.
This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ
Did a search of the Forum and not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this information so do correct me if necessary.
This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ
An anguished account, almost haunting. The poor man.
Thanks for sharing.
Let's just hope he has no knowledge of this forum.An anguished account, almost haunting. The poor man.
Well said Rebekah. My sentiments exactly. This is a loss of innocence.No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.
To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.
While I am sympathetic to this point of view, it is perhaps for different reasons. However, whenever I have mulled over this there are two points that I keep coming back to:Maybe her horrible murder should no longer be discussed on this forum and all posts of it be deleted by the forum admin.
If anybody wants to keep track of the judicial process and investigation, they can find out more information via various news media.
Personally I would prefer that her family not discover and read through a bunch of posts like these in a web based forum. They have enough anguish to deal with and don't need to see what basically amounts to idle chatter about their lost relative.
...I do not wish to continue the string of messages expressing feelings and opinions, I just want to say that I fail to understand why for example information pointing to the letter from the Italian pilgrim to the Thiem family which was also published in an Arizona newspaper should be censored on this forum, and in particular in the section "Camino Crime Watch".
This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ
Mina, welcome to the forum and thanks for the update on this family's saga. Having to wait almost six weeks [based on the article] to get the body of their love one is painful. Que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.The family of Denise Thiem have finally received permission to retrieve her body from Spain.
In fact, the shell I carried for Denise from SJPP, was passed on to another pilgrim, and will be delivered to The Pilgrim House tomorrow. Gratitudes to Natalie, and congratulations to her on the completion of her second Camino!I'll be there, and will pick up a shell for her tomorrow. Will, indeed, write Denise's name on mine - and pass it along in Leon to someone going to Santiago -- I will be stopping in Leon - should arrive about the 2nd or 3rd of Nov (leaving for Madrid the 4th) and will be at the Paris Hotel. PM me if you can meet to take Denise's shell on to Santiago. TIA!
Terry
The family of Denise Thiem have finally received permission to retrieve her body from Spain.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ives-permission-retrieve-body-spain/75473068/
Thank you for taking this up. The dictionary that I consulted suggested "accessory prosecutor" (in some countries the public prosecution office conducts the investigation together with the police). I think the concept is part of criminal law proceedings in some countries.For those who don't read Spanish I think this means something like -- the family will no longer be privy to the details of the legal process since they have declined the opportunity to file a supplemental civil lawsuit against the accused. I will ask my prosecutor friend about this proceeding.
Thank you for taking this up. The dictionary that I consulted suggested "accessory prosecutor". I think the concept is part of criminal law proceedings in some countries.
Here is what's ludicrous:
The perpetrator has confessed. The crime is solved. There is nothing more to investigate, probe, or consider.
Come on, people. Give the family back their daughter.
The findings of the autopsy that transpired in the press do not support the confession of the perpetrator. The results of the forensic investigation tend towards a crime that is more severe than what the man confessed to. In his version, the crime would have been a homicide. She happened to pass by, there was a quarrel, he had a blackout, he hit her, she fell against a rock. The results of the autopsy tend towards an assassination, according to the Spanish law. An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.
Based on his own confession, he would get off lightly.
@MinaKamina has identified a concern that must also be considered - to ensure that justice is done. I can understand the family's desire to have Denise's remains returned. I have no particular expertise on what constitutes a reasonable time in which to complete any forensic investigations, but I expect it will neither be as quick or as certain as is often presented in TV dramas, etc.Bear in mind my concern here is for the family.
The police investigation into the death of Denise has been completed. The Prosecution is ready to take the case to the courts. The trial will problably not take place until next year because there are no free dates available. The Prosecutor is expected to charge the accused with 'asesinato'. (An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.)
Already in October 2015 during the investigation, the Prosecution sought judicial support from China and Germany. In May 2014 a Chinese peregrina lost her way after Castrillo de los Polvazares and was attacked by a man. She reported the attack. In September 2014, a German peregrina was attacked near the same spot by a similar man. She too reported the crime and told that the man had used a stun gun that failed to discharge. The case against this man, allegedly the same person in both instances as the man now accused of murder, was filed provisionally and the police let the man go. On April 5 2015, he attacked Denise.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...peregrina-americana-denise-thiem_1017599.html
http://www.telecinco.es/elprogramad...grinas-asaltadas-archivadas_2_2055930067.html
(Ivar has posted this link earlier, I repeat it because I'm having some problems with quoting neatly.)
Meanwhile, the man now in prison has recanted his confession, claiming that he only confessed under pressure. Nor did he lead the police to the location where the remains of Denise were found, he only brought them to that spot because earlier he had noticed a foul odour there.
The Prosecution does not deem credible that MB came across the body of the victim by chance. According to the Prosecution he knew the whereabouts of the corpse, because he had actually been the one who had brought the body to that area.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...en-peregrina-denise-ya-instruido_1060608.html
Sorry. Deleted my posts to circumvent leading more posts off topic. Newish and still learning the rules. Sincere apologies.We are drifting off the topic here which is Post arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem. There is another Thread covering the sad death of Jeroen. Please lets not mix them up.
@MinaKamina, have you arranged permission from the image's owner for that? It's a nice image, but perhaps viewing it at the link is the best option if we don't have the rights to publish it here.Could someone please post it on this thread? I don't know how to do that, but it would be nice to have it here.
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...em-mural/0003_201611201611251480074591270.htm
The accused's confession has been deemed valid (admissible?).
I would be careful making such claims. The defence may seek a complete acquittal since "it claims" there is nothing..." may be more correct.The Defence will seek a complete acquittal, since there is nothing that links the accused to the crime.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-denise-completamente-destrozada_1144847.html
I would be careful making such claims. The defence may seek a complete acquittal since "it claims" there is nothing..." may be more correct.
Until there is a verdict and this verdict is confirmed, everything is a claim, the claim of assassination and robbery with violence included. I just do not mention that every time.
This is not a matter of the defence may seek. They seek complete acquittal and they have been loud, clear and consistent about that for months. They tried to have the case thrown out for that reason. Fat chance - and no success - but that did not stop them either.
Until there is a verdict and this verdict is confirmed, everything is a claim, the claim of assassination and robbery with violence included. I just do not mention that every time.
This is not a matter of the defence may seek. They seek complete acquittal and they have been loud, clear and consistent about that for months. They tried to have the case thrown out for that reason. Fat chance - and no success - but that did not stop them either.
Appologies, I replaced "will" by "may" in my post by mistake. But that was not the issue. The issue I was pointing out was saying for a fact that there is no evidence, "that there is nothing that links the accused to the crime".
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