Post-arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem

[Former member 42123]

Sorry, but some of these posts have been deleted. Debates about proper punishment, forgiveness and speculation about motive are just not appropriate here. I know it's difficult, but we really want to limit this discussion to facts about the judicial proceedings. There is too much unknown and too much raw emotion.

Thank you for your calm and reasoned post.

 

[mspath]

Use this link to follow tonight's memorial mass for Denise in Santiago de Compostela cathedral via web cam. ....In our hearts we all will be there.


http://www.crtvg.es/crtvg/camaras-web/catedral-de-santiago-nave-central

 

[Anemone del Camino]

I gather that, unlike some had announced here, the family did not attend. And who van blame them. Volunteers at Pilgrim House got media accreditation and videotaped the mass for the family and Faith read a prayer sent by Denise's mother for the occasion. How kind of the family to do something like this, probably for other pilgrims.

 

[peregrina2000]

I gather that, unlike some had announced here, the family did not attend. And who van blame them. Volunteers at Pilgrim House got media accreditation and videotaped the mass for the family and Faith read a prayer sent by Denise's mother for the occasion. How kind of the family to do something like this, probably for other pilgrims.

And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.

 

[grayland]

Laurie...thanks for the continued updates here on the Spanish press. My Spanish just isn't up to clear understanding.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.

It is easier not to feel, to stay aloof, to try to stick to "just the facts, ma'am". The truth is---this is just all so tremendously sad. Heartfelt sympathy and prayers to all.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

I caught the Spanish News on SBS in Australia today and it had vision from the Mass for Denise as well as a report. It is 30 mins into the broadcast: http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/518203459592/spanish-news-17-september. Don't know if it is available outside Australia.

 

[wayfarer]

Again, please do not post links which include graphic details of Denise's murder. Anyone wishing to read these can find them online but the forum is not the place and they will be deleted.

 

[wayfarer]

Other than than the fact that Denise has been found there is no Good News in any of this....

 

[Anniesantiago]

And the heart-breaking detail from the Diario de Leon is that the prayer from Denise's mom included an apology to Denise -- that she was so sorry that she was unable to protect her the way she could when Denise was a child. I just have no words to react to this.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Post arrest news necessarily will contain details, some of which may be disturbing to the sensitive, but some of which contain information that is quite valuable to pilgrims with safety concerns. While it has not been definitively determined in this case, it seems to be a confirmed fact that false yellow arrows were painted by the perpetrator for a series of crimes against pilgrims, and I find that quite useful and practical information. Others may find it disturbing.

To find news stories, I suggest using a Google search of news in Chrome. Look for recent articles. There are many stories now, and the list is not date sorted. When you access them, you can use Google Translate for English. The translation will make little distinction between things like "him" and "her." For Galician news stories, Translate may not auto-detect Gallego. You will get a better translation from Galician if you manually select it for the source.

I assume that anyone who goes through these steps is adult enough to handle the resulting information, something that may have been beyond their capability when an actual link was provided. Be forewarned that murder is a disturbing event.

 

[mazgirl]

My thoughts & a pray go to Denise family and they will have the comfort of finally knowing where she is
She will now be at peace

 

[mountaingoat999]

Post arrest news necessarily will contain details, some of which may be disturbing to the sensitive, but some of which contain information that is quite valuable to pilgrims with safety concerns. While it has not been definitively determined in this case, it seems to be a confirmed fact that false yellow arrows were painted by the perpetrator for a series of crimes against pilgrims, and I find that quite useful and practical information. Others may find it disturbing.

To find news stories, I suggest using a Google search of news in Chrome. Look for recent articles. There are many stories now, and the list is not date sorted. When you access them, you can use Google Translate for English. The translation will make little distinction between things like "him" and "her." For Galician news stories, Translate may not auto-detect Gallego. You will get a better translation from Galician if you manually select it for the source.

I assume that anyone who goes through these steps is adult enough to handle the resulting information, something that may have been beyond their capability when an actual link was provided. Be forewarned that murder is a disturbing event.

nothing wrong here with the above factual information very constructive ....I just look at the comment "no news is good news" meaning closure is forthcoming for the family.....very un-embroidered post

 

[mountaingoat999]

My thoughts & a pray go to Denise family and they will have the comfort of finally knowing where she is
She will now be at peace

my sentiments exactly,along with lesson will and have been learned by this Terrible act.

 

[peregrina2000]

Post arrest news necessarily will contain details, some of which may be disturbing to the sensitive, but some of which contain information that is quite valuable to pilgrims with safety concerns. While it has not been definitively determined in this case, it seems to be a confirmed fact that false yellow arrows were painted by the perpetrator for a series of crimes against pilgrims, and I find that quite useful and practical information. Others may find it disturbing.

Falcon, I don't dispute your claim that there may be valuable information for pilgrims with safety concerns in a lot of the emerging news reports. But to take your specific point here as an example, I think you have posted a very incomplete and fright-inducing statement. I have refrained from posting information about the "false arrows" issue, because the press reports are imprecise and inconsistent. But what is the most likely case is that these arrows were arrows that took pilgrims, NOT off the Camino Francés, but rather off an unofficial, poorly marked detour to Castrillo de Polvazares.

Those additional details are crucial, I think, to give a real sense of what we are potentially talking about. We are probably not talking about a detour off the Camino Francés, pilgrims don´t have to worry every time they see a yellow arrow that it may have a sinister purpose. For people who are not familiar with the Camino in general and the detour to Castrillo in particular, your post creates alarms that are disproportionate to what the actual facts on the ground are tending to bear out. I think we should be really careful about what we say on the forum. People can read what they read in the press, but for my money, the forum ought to be a place where people can get reliable, balanced information. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[Anniesantiago]

I'm so confused.

 

[VNwalking]

Before this discussion gets much 'warmer,' just a comment from the 'peanut gallery.' Presumably we are all adults, and if we get upset about this upsetting news we need to take responsibility for that...and if we choose to read this stuff our reactions are not the fault of the Forum or the poster. No need to protect us from us.
The articles are all out there, and they can be perused as we are able to digest the information, if we like. I for one appreciate whatever links are posted, but in the absence of that I've done what Falcon suggests from time to time. It works.

 

[Kathor1]

for my money, the forum ought to be a place where people can get reliable, balanced information.

Thank you again for trying to keep this thread on topic (as described in the first post) and for providing information. I read today in the local media which you recommended earlier that some people take the road to a scenic village instead of following the main camino and that there is a possibility of getting lost afterwards.

It's difficult to know what one is allowed to write on this forum and in this thread. I get the feeling that the posts that are deemed appropriate are expressions of grief and compassion. This is not meant as criticism, far from it. Perhaps this thread should be closed or at least the title should be changed to reflect this? Or take up the suggestion of allowing only moderator contributions or pre-approved contributions?

 

[jirit]

Falcon, I don't dispute your claim that there may be valuable information for pilgrims with safety concerns in a lot of the emerging news reports. But to take your specific point here as an example, I think you have posted a very incomplete and fright-inducing statement. I have refrained from posting information about the "false arrows" issue, because the press reports are imprecise and inconsistent. But what is the most likely case is that these arrows were arrows that took pilgrims, NOT off the Camino Francés, but rather off an unofficial, poorly marked detour to Castrillo de Polvazares.

Those additional details are crucial, I think, to give a real sense of what we are potentially talking about. We are probably not talking about a detour off the Camino Francés, pilgrims don´t have to worry every time they see a yellow arrow that it may have a sinister purpose. For people who are not familiar with the Camino in general and the detour to Castrillo in particular, your post creates alarms that are disproportionate to what the actual facts on the ground are tending to bear out. I think we should be really careful about what we say on the forum. People can read what they read in the press, but for my money, the forum ought to be a place where people can get reliable, balanced information. Buen camino, Laurie

To clarify peregrina2000's comments about the detour route to Castrillo de Polvazares, the attached JPEG shows the regular camino route ( marked with a yellow arrow) and the detour route ( marked with a white arrow). The detour route itself is aside the provincial road LE-142 going west from Castrillo de Polvazares. Pilgrims that decide to take this detour will head straight to Castrillo de Polvazares, whereby the regular camino bypasses Castrillo de Polvazares. Once at Castrillo de Polvazares, pilgrims would normally head south along LE-142 and rejoin the camino and then head west to Santa Catalina.

It is unclear if the detour route is marked at all but a review of Google StreetView suggests that there is a foot trail beside the road.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

http://astorgaredaccion.com/not/9574/buen-camino-denise/

 

[GettingThere]

To clarify peregrina2000's comments about the detour route to Castrillo de Polvazares, the attached JPEG shows the regular camino route ( marked with a yellow arrow) and the detour route ( marked with a white arrow). The detour route itself is aside the provincial road LE-142 going west from Castrillo de Polvazares. Pilgrims that decide to take this detour will head straight to Castrillo de Polvazares, whereby the regular camino bypasses Castrillo de Polvazares. Once at Castrillo de Polvazares, pilgrims would normally head south along LE-142 and rejoin the camino and then head west to Santa Catalina.

It is unclear if the detour route is marked at all but a review of Google StreetView suggests that there is a foot trail beside the road.

As mentioned in my earlier post above, the detour route is marked, if not as clearly as it could be. In fact the marked detour takes you through Castrillo itself and back to the main Camino route along tracks across country, not via the road except on the way to Castrillo from Murias (no footpath beside that road, and with fast traffic doing a lot of overtaking it is quite dangerous). It is marked as a "recommended" detour in Brierley's guide (blue dots), along with directions which for once are clearer than the actual route markings. We took that route in May and stayed overnight in Castrillo. Not a choice I'd make again, it's an odd place, and on a weekend was deserted and there were no bars (or none open), just a few hotel/restaurants. We left at first light and were glad to find our way back to the main Camino.

(EDIT: There's also a municipal albergue in Castrillo, at the top end of the village, which is signposted from the main road)

 

[SimLin]

As mentioned in my earlier post above, the detour route is marked, if not as clearly as it could be. In fact the marked detour takes you through Castrillo itself and back to the main Camino route along tracks across country, not via the road except on the way to Castrillo from Murias (no footpath beside that road, and with fast traffic doing a lot of overtaking it is quite dangerous). It is marked as a "recommended" detour in Brierley's guide (blue dots), along with directions which for once are clearer than the actual route markings. We took that route in May and stayed overnight in Castrillo. Not a choice I'd make again, it's an odd place, and on a weekend was deserted and there were no bars (or none open), just a few hotel/restaurants. We left at first light and were glad to find our way back to the main Camino.

(EDIT: There's also a municipal albergue in Castrillo, at the top end of the village, which is signposted from the main road)

Thanks for sharing!

 

[peregrina2000]

Thank you again for trying to keep this thread on topic (as described in the first post) and for providing information. I read today in the local media which you recommended earlier that some people take the road to a scenic village instead of following the main camino and that there is a possibility of getting lost afterwards.

It's difficult to know what one is allowed to write on this forum and in this thread. I get the feeling that the posts that are deemed appropriate are expressions of grief and compassion. This is not meant as criticism, far from it. Perhaps this thread should be closed or at least the title should be changed to reflect this? Or take up the suggestion of allowing only moderator contributions or pre-approved contributions?

Hi, Kathar1na. I appreciate that things are really confusing. And as someone who only became a moderator recently, this has really been a baptism by fire. We are trying to walk such a fine line -- to be sensitive to what we hear as the overwhelming forum membership desire to keep the gruesome out of the forum, while at the same time having a place to get updates on what is going on. I know there's potentially a lot of overlap there and so it may seem to some that we are being censors or that we think we are the sole reliable source for information, but that is really not our intent. We considered the options you mention above and decided they were too restrictive and heavy handed. So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details. In hindsight, it does seem kind of ridiculous that there are almost as many posts on this thread about what should be allowed to be posted on this thread as there are posts about the topic of the thread.

 

[VNwalking]

So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details.

Good job, Laurie. And not an easy job. Well done, and thank you.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

Hi, Kathar1na. I appreciate that things are really confusing. And as someone who only became a moderator recently, this has really been a baptism by fire. We are trying to walk such a fine line -- to be sensitive to what we hear as the overwhelming forum membership desire to keep the gruesome out of the forum, while at the same time having a place to get updates on what is going on. I know there's potentially a lot of overlap there and so it may seem to some that we are being censors or that we think we are the sole reliable source for information, but that is really not our intent. We considered the options you mention above and decided they were too restrictive and heavy handed. So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details. In hindsight, it does seem kind of ridiculous that there are almost as many posts on this thread about what should be allowed to be posted on this thread as there are posts about the topic of the thread.

Thank you for taking the lead on this thread, Laurie.

You are doing a fabulous job.

 

[Donna Sch]

what worries me is this leading to him (the accused )building a case of diminished responsibility and some years down the line walking free....like so many we here about..
sane or insane ..competent or incompetent this can never be allowed to happen again or the accused being able to be in a position to be able to hurt anybody else...

I know in Australia that if you are declared mentally impaired with a crime, it is often a life sentence even if the crime carries a much small jail term. With fewer rights of appeal. Here they definitely do not walk "free". So I think the legal system is more than likely to remove the perpetrator from the community permanently one way or another.

 

[Anniesantiago]

Hi, Kathar1na. I appreciate that things are really confusing. And as someone who only became a moderator recently, this has really been a baptism by fire. We are trying to walk such a fine line -- to be sensitive to what we hear as the overwhelming forum membership desire to keep the gruesome out of the forum, while at the same time having a place to get updates on what is going on. I know there's potentially a lot of overlap there and so it may seem to some that we are being censors or that we think we are the sole reliable source for information, but that is really not our intent. We considered the options you mention above and decided they were too restrictive and heavy handed. So I guess we'll continue lurching along as we are and hope that people understand that our intentions are good and we are trying to facilitate the exchange of as much information as possible without delving into speculation and/or graphic details. In hindsight, it does seem kind of ridiculous that there are almost as many posts on this thread about what should be allowed to be posted on this thread as there are posts about the topic of the thread.

I want to join with the others, Laurie; this is not an easy task.
You and the other mods are doing a wonderful job and you're all very much appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

The police have a video of the murderer among a group of pilgrims outside Oviedo. Apparently he took a bus to Oviedo and joined the group. He was arrested five days later in Grandes de Salimes while having a sandwich with the pilgrims. I honestly don't know what or who can post in this thread.

Post was edited.

 

[mountaingoat999]

I know in Australia that if you are declared mentally impaired with a crime, it is often a life sentence even if the crime carries a much small jail term. With fewer rights of appeal. Here they definitely do not walk "free". So I think the legal system is more than likely to remove the perpetrator from the community permanently one way or another.

Donna Sch
unfortunately in Europe this is not the case

 

[Denisealldridge]

If I'm ever so lucky as to walk the Camino again, so will I. What a lovely idea.
Dominique
Distraught, thinking of Denise's family, may she rest in peace.

I am walking with my brother in October, we will both carry a shell with her name on it and leave them at Santiago for her memory. She is in all our hearts.

 

[grayland]

Faith and Nate at The Pilgrim House in Santiago reported this morning that the first Pilgrim left a Shell that they carried for Denise today.
This is the first of the many to come.

https://www.caminodesantiago.me/community/threads/memorial-shells-for-denise.36391/#post-343885

 

[Caneadea]

sigh... my whole being hurts with saddness for Denise & family... May they feel the comfort & healing of the Light! there are no words for how I am feeling... thank you all for your post.... If I continue with my plans in walking the Camino I would be honored & love to carry a shell for Denise, all my respect! Safe Travels to All!
(After she went missing, local authorities insisted that her disappearance was an isolated case that should not be interpreted as evidence of an increased safety risk along the Camino, which has become a major tourism boon to Spain.) I took this out of the NyTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/w...n-spain-is-found-and-arrest-is-made.html?_r=0

 

[Betty Bauer]

I may be inaccurate in supposing this, but the somewhat upsetting possibility/fact that false arrows were painted to bring pilgrims closer to the suspect's property, to me seems to mean there were more pilgrims than just Denise walking this way, and as far as we can tell, most have turned out alright.

 

[peregrina2000]

I may be inaccurate in supposing this, but the somewhat upsetting possibility/fact that false arrows were painted to bring pilgrims closer to the suspect's property, to me seems to mean there were more pilgrims than just Denise walking this way, and as far as we can tell, most have turned out alright.

Hi, Betty,
Though I haven't seen specific corroboration of this, the false arrows were not on the Camino Frances itself (see earlier posts by me and by GettingThere). They appear to have been placed to take people off a poorly marked and very lightly traveled detour to Castrillo de Polvazares, a touristy little town a few km off the Camino Frances.

Of the many people leaving Astorga on a daily basis, only a handful, or maybe even less, take the detour to Castrillo. Getting to Castrillo and getting back to the Camino from there are not routes that any people who mark the camino would pay attention to. So they were undoubtedly haphazard and unchecked. I think that's the only reason the accused was able to get away with putting false arrows up. Buen camino, Laurie

 

[Betty Bauer]

Hi, Betty,
Though I haven't seen specific corroboration of this, the false arrows were not on the Camino Frances itself (see earlier posts by me and by GettingThere). They appear to have been placed to take people off a poorly marked and very lightly traveled detour to Castrillo de Polvazares, a touristy little town a few km off the Camino Frances.

Of the many people leaving Astorga on a daily basis, only a handful, or maybe even less, take the detour to Castrillo. Getting to Castrillo and getting back to the Camino from there are not routes that any people who mark the camino would pay attention to. So they were undoubtedly haphazard and unchecked. I think that's the only reason the accused was able to get away with putting false arrows up. Buen camino, Laurie

That does clarify it more.

 

[Stephen Nicholls]

Crumbs! My computer just showed this - and I was really worried for Laurie ....


Good luck, Laurie!
Stephen.
x

 

[LauraK]

Thanks Laurie. This thread is very helpful and informative.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Hi, Betty,
Though I haven't seen specific corroboration of this, the false arrows were not on the Camino Frances itself (see earlier posts by me and by GettingThere). They appear to have been placed to take people off a poorly marked and very lightly traveled detour to Castrillo de Polvazares, a touristy little town a few km off the Camino Frances.

Of the many people leaving Astorga on a daily basis, only a handful, or maybe even less, take the detour to Castrillo. Getting to Castrillo and getting back to the Camino from there are not routes that any people who mark the camino would pay attention to. So they were undoubtedly haphazard and unchecked. I think that's the only reason the accused was able to get away with putting false arrows up. Buen camino, Laurie

Did a search of the Forum and not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this information so do correct me if necessary.

This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ

 

[peregrina2000]

Did a search of the Forum and not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this information so do correct me if necessary.

This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ

An anguished account, almost haunting. The poor man.

 

[Deleted member 3000]

Very touching.

 

[natefaith]

Did a search of the Forum and not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this information so do correct me if necessary.

This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

An anguished account, almost haunting. The poor man.

Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I'm glad that I did. It really illustrates the wide ranging effects of any action. It is a haunting account.

 

[peregrina2000]

The head of the National Police, Ignacio Cosido, announced today that the DNA testing is complete and that it confirms that the remains found on the ranch of the accused are indeed those of Denise. The investigation is ongoing and the police are now working to reconstruct the crime, which will be very important to the determination of the appropriate penalty to be imposed.

 

[RumAndChupacabras]

Horrid. May God abundantly Bless Denise's Family and Friends. <3

 

[MichaelSG]

An anguished account, almost haunting. The poor man.

Let's just hope he has no knowledge of this forum.

 

[Mark Lee]

Maybe her horrible murder should no longer be discussed on this forum and all posts of it be deleted by the forum admin.
If anybody wants to keep track of the judicial process and investigation, they can find out more information via various news media.
Personally I would prefer that her family not discover and read through a bunch of posts like these in a web based forum. They have enough anguish to deal with and don't need to see what basically amounts to idle chatter about their lost relative.

 

[Carol06]

No one needs to have had a direct link to Denise Thiem to feel stricken by her loss. We have lost a bit of surety that was precious to us: Here was a place where a woman could walk safely, far from psycho killers and creeps. She could stop feeling afraid and start becoming a free spirit. The Camino was a place of peace and unity, a little Eden for those of us who lived and grew up in a place where violence and sudden death are our daily news and "entertainment."
Now we know that violence can reach us here, too. An innocent was taken from us. Our camino innocence, foolish as it might have been, is blackened by an evil man. Now that politicians and power-players finally kicked the police into action, Denise's remains can be given proper burial, and her killer can go inside for a long, long time. Her family mourns. And we mourn, too.

To an American living on the camino, this feels like someone dumped toxic sludge over the Rocky mountains.

Well said Rebekah. My sentiments exactly. This is a loss of innocence.

 

[dougfitz]

Maybe her horrible murder should no longer be discussed on this forum and all posts of it be deleted by the forum admin.
If anybody wants to keep track of the judicial process and investigation, they can find out more information via various news media.
Personally I would prefer that her family not discover and read through a bunch of posts like these in a web based forum. They have enough anguish to deal with and don't need to see what basically amounts to idle chatter about their lost relative.

While I am sympathetic to this point of view, it is perhaps for different reasons. However, whenever I have mulled over this there are two points that I keep coming back to:

• the first is that the family was prepared to use a variety of social media, including this forum, in its efforts to find Denise. They cannot now expect that, given their massive efforts to keep the matter in the public eye, the public will turn away and not want to know what the aftermath brings.
• second is that it might continue to serve a useful purpose in ensuring pilgrims, perhaps women in particular, are more alert to potential dangers than they might have been previously. There are risks to this, but I generally think the benefits of doing this outweigh the disadvantages. I think we will have gone too far if new pilgrims, or even experienced ones, become alarmed about the potential dangers when their likelihood is still extremely small.

Neither of these need us to be titillated by the details of her death, but they are served by keeping this thread open. I don't doubt that it will surge in activity from time to time during the judicial processes now underway, but it will eventually lose its utility and cease to be active.

 

[Kathor1]

The last message that is on topic, namely "post-arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem", was posted by Peregrina2000 on 26 September 2015. I was puzzled to see that the thread was then revived two weeks later by a message without news content.

I do not wish to continue the string of messages expressing feelings and opinions, I just want to say that I fail to understand why for example information pointing to the letter from the Italian pilgrim to the Thiem family which was also published in an Arizona newspaper should be censored on this forum, and in particular in the section "Camino Crime Watch".

I do not agree with a previous statement that the general mainstream media, in particular those not from Spain, are a good source of easily found factual information. Quite the contrary.

A poster implies that we are discussing the murder. We are not.

 

[MichaelSG]

...I do not wish to continue the string of messages expressing feelings and opinions, I just want to say that I fail to understand why for example information pointing to the letter from the Italian pilgrim to the Thiem family which was also published in an Arizona newspaper should be censored on this forum, and in particular in the section "Camino Crime Watch".

Was it censored?

This link came through on my Twitter feed this morning. It is an account from the Italian pilgrim who is thought to possibly be the last person to see Denise alive. He has only now broken his silence: http://ift.tt/1R0w0NQ

 

[ivar]

I will close this thread now since we don't really have any more news on this at the moment. It may or may not be opened in the future when there are news on this topic.

 

[ivar]

...and as I just closed this thread.. the mods received this link to a story from TeleCinco in Spain:
http://www.telecinco.es/elprogramad...grinas-asaltadas-archivadas_2_2055930067.html

It seems that two pilgrims filed complaints in October 2014 for being assaulted in the general area where Denise was killed. The judge in Astorga dismissed the two complains for not having enough evidence.

I am opening up this thread again, but please stay on topic. We will moderate this thread strictly.

 

[JabbaPapa]

Pilgrims who are received into the Hand of the Lord on their Way receive a special Grace, and it is clear from the love that is given to Denise that her pilgrimage was inspiring.

Much love Denise -- we will remember and think of you.

 

[MinaKamina]

The family of Denise Thiem have finally received permission to retrieve her body from Spain.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ives-permission-retrieve-body-spain/75473068/

 

[Sailor]

The family of Denise Thiem have finally received permission to retrieve her body from Spain.

Mina, welcome to the forum and thanks for the update on this family's saga. Having to wait almost six weeks [based on the article] to get the body of their love one is painful. Que la luz de Dios alumbre su camino.

 

[OTH86]

I'll be there, and will pick up a shell for her tomorrow. Will, indeed, write Denise's name on mine - and pass it along in Leon to someone going to Santiago -- I will be stopping in Leon - should arrive about the 2nd or 3rd of Nov (leaving for Madrid the 4th) and will be at the Paris Hotel. PM me if you can meet to take Denise's shell on to Santiago. TIA!
Terry

In fact, the shell I carried for Denise from SJPP, was passed on to another pilgrim, and will be delivered to The Pilgrim House tomorrow. Gratitudes to Natalie, and congratulations to her on the completion of her second Camino!
Terry

 

[MinaKamina]

The family of Denise Thiem have finally received permission to retrieve her body from Spain.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ives-permission-retrieve-body-spain/75473068/

This is so sad. The parents of Denise have written yet another letter to Rajoy and Obama, asking why the remains of their daughter have not been released.
The answer to that question is in the newspaper too. I hope the family was informed before this appeared in the press.
The remains of Denise are still in Spain. As it turns out, the family will have to wait until the forensic investigation is finished and no date is given.

http://www.elmundo.es/sociedad/2015/11/27/5657417022601d693d8b45a9.html

 

[Kathor1]

I saw an article today in Spanish where I read something I saw before, namely that the family "ya que no tiene acceso al sumario al declinar presentarse como acusación particular". I guess it could be translated as "accessory plaintiff" or similar, and there may be no equivalents in other legal systems, and I can imagine a number of reasons why this option would be declined or not chosen in this case. Is this something that would be usually done in Spain?

 

[peregrina2000]

For those who don't read Spanish I think this means something like -- the family will no longer be privy to the details of the legal process since they have declined the opportunity to file a supplemental civil lawsuit against the accused. I will ask my prosecutor friend about this proceeding.

 

[Kathor1]

For those who don't read Spanish I think this means something like -- the family will no longer be privy to the details of the legal process since they have declined the opportunity to file a supplemental civil lawsuit against the accused. I will ask my prosecutor friend about this proceeding.

Thank you for taking this up. The dictionary that I consulted suggested "accessory prosecutor" (in some countries the public prosecution office conducts the investigation together with the police). I think the concept is part of criminal law proceedings in some countries.

 

[peregrina2000]

Thank you for taking this up. The dictionary that I consulted suggested "accessory prosecutor". I think the concept is part of criminal law proceedings in some countries.

Thanks Katharina. I think you're right. I also think this blurring of civil/criminal lines is unknown in the common law system (but I really don't know about anything beyond the US, and I don't know much about criminal law either). Though US prosecutors typically keep the family informed as criminal proceedings go forward, the family would have the option to file a separate civil lawsuit with a lower burden of proof, but I don't think there's any option to file as an accessory prosecutor, which is what you describe.

I'm not at all surprised the family would decline to participate.

 

[MinaKamina]

Here is what's ludicrous:

The perpetrator has confessed. The crime is solved. There is nothing more to investigate, probe, or consider.

Come on, people. Give the family back their daughter.

The findings of the autopsy that transpired in the press do not support the confession of the perpetrator. The results of the forensic investigation tend towards a crime that is more severe than what the man confessed to. In his version, the crime would have been a homicide. She happened to pass by, there was a quarrel, he had a blackout, he hit her, she fell against a rock. The results of the autopsy tend towards an assassination, according to the Spanish law. An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.

Based on his own confession, he would get off lightly.

 

[CaminoDebrita]

The findings of the autopsy that transpired in the press do not support the confession of the perpetrator. The results of the forensic investigation tend towards a crime that is more severe than what the man confessed to. In his version, the crime would have been a homicide. She happened to pass by, there was a quarrel, he had a blackout, he hit her, she fell against a rock. The results of the autopsy tend towards an assassination, according to the Spanish law. An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.

Based on his own confession, he would get off lightly.

Okay. I understand the need for investigation and "proof," but given that she was found in mid September, and it is now mid November--and perhaps I'm missing something here, but--shouldn't they be finished with the autopsy at this point?

Bear in mind my concern here is for the family.

 

[MinaKamina]

[QUOTE="

Bear in mind my concern here is for the family.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with the concern for the family. If only there was a way to make this easier ...

 

[dougfitz]

Bear in mind my concern here is for the family.

@MinaKamina has identified a concern that must also be considered - to ensure that justice is done. I can understand the family's desire to have Denise's remains returned. I have no particular expertise on what constitutes a reasonable time in which to complete any forensic investigations, but I expect it will neither be as quick or as certain as is often presented in TV dramas, etc.


I would hope that we can keep this thread open so that those of us who are not following the case closely in the Spanish and US press can be kept informed about developments, rather than have a running commentary about the Spanish judicial system.

 

[peregrina2000]

I have some information about the Spanish criminal process. Unlike the US (and possibly many other places), in which there are only two parties, prosecutor and defense attorney, in Spain two other intervenors are possible-- a "popular accuser" (affected citizens or associations with an interest in the outcome) or a "personal accuser" (in this case the survivors of the victim). Participation would give the family direct access to the entire process as well as the ability to testify at sentencing.

Since the family has declined to participate, they will not be directly involved or contacted. The Embassy is likely to receive updates, which they will probably pass on to the family.

With regards to the body, so long as there are disputed versions of the cause of death, the judge is unlikely to release the body. The defendant, if he disagrees with the State's reconstruction of the events, is entitled to have an autopsy performed by someone of his choosing. It is up to the judge to decide when to release the body, but she is likely to be very careful not to do anything in this high profile case that could be seen as prejudicing the defendant.

I am sure this is unspeakably painful for the family but my friend says that the process is being carried out with the same painstaking and tediously slow steps as any other murder case.

 

[grayland]

Several posts have been edited/deleted in an attempt to discourage personal remarks and arguing.
Hopefully, these remarks can be taken to PM if further discussion is needed.

This is not the thread to engage each other in personal remarks.
Thanks.

 

[JabbaPapa]

God and the Apostle Bless Denise.

 

[MinaKamina]

The necessary forensic investigations have been done and the Judge in Astorga has given permission to hand over the remains of Denise to the family.
Cedric Thiem has arrived on Saturday in Madrid.
http://caminodesantiago.lavozdegali...ia/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Almost home.

 

[MinaKamina]

The police investigation into the death of Denise has been completed. The Prosecution is ready to take the case to the courts. The trial will problably not take place until next year because there are no free dates available. The Prosecutor is expected to charge the accused with 'asesinato'. (An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.)

Already in October 2015 during the investigation, the Prosecution sought judicial support from China and Germany. In May 2014 a Chinese peregrina lost her way after Castrillo de los Polvazares and was attacked by a man. She reported the attack. In September 2014, a German peregrina was attacked near the same spot by a similar man. She too reported the crime and told that the man had used a stun gun that failed to discharge. The case against this man, allegedly the same person in both instances as the man now accused of murder, was filed provisionally and the police let the man go. On April 5 2015, he attacked Denise.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...peregrina-americana-denise-thiem_1017599.html
http://www.telecinco.es/elprogramad...grinas-asaltadas-archivadas_2_2055930067.html
(Ivar has posted this link earlier, I repeat it because I'm having some problems with quoting neatly.)

Meanwhile, the man now in prison has recanted his confession, claiming that he only confessed under pressure. Nor did he lead the police to the location where the remains of Denise were found, he only brought them to that spot because earlier he had noticed a foul odour there.
The Prosecution does not deem credible that MB came across the body of the victim by chance. According to the Prosecution he knew the whereabouts of the corpse, because he had actually been the one who had brought the body to that area.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...en-peregrina-denise-ya-instruido_1060608.html

 

[CaminoDebrita]

The police investigation into the death of Denise has been completed. The Prosecution is ready to take the case to the courts. The trial will problably not take place until next year because there are no free dates available. The Prosecutor is expected to charge the accused with 'asesinato'. (An 'asesinato' is a crime against a person's life with aggravating circumstances like malice, premeditation, exceptional suffering. A surprise attack that was plannend from an ambush or a trap with the aim that the victim would be unable to defend herself.)

Already in October 2015 during the investigation, the Prosecution sought judicial support from China and Germany. In May 2014 a Chinese peregrina lost her way after Castrillo de los Polvazares and was attacked by a man. She reported the attack. In September 2014, a German peregrina was attacked near the same spot by a similar man. She too reported the crime and told that the man had used a stun gun that failed to discharge. The case against this man, allegedly the same person in both instances as the man now accused of murder, was filed provisionally and the police let the man go. On April 5 2015, he attacked Denise.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...peregrina-americana-denise-thiem_1017599.html
http://www.telecinco.es/elprogramad...grinas-asaltadas-archivadas_2_2055930067.html
(Ivar has posted this link earlier, I repeat it because I'm having some problems with quoting neatly.)

Meanwhile, the man now in prison has recanted his confession, claiming that he only confessed under pressure. Nor did he lead the police to the location where the remains of Denise were found, he only brought them to that spot because earlier he had noticed a foul odour there.
The Prosecution does not deem credible that MB came across the body of the victim by chance. According to the Prosecution he knew the whereabouts of the corpse, because he had actually been the one who had brought the body to that area.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...en-peregrina-denise-ya-instruido_1060608.html

Thank you for the update, which is a reminder that what happened to Denise Thiem was the final tragedy in a string of attacks, assuming that the two attacks mentioned in this article were indeed committed by the same fiend.

 

[Wokabaut_Meri]

Thank you also for the update. Those of us who were on the Camino at the time, appreciate your effort.

Thoughts and prayers, as always, for Denise's family.

 

[NualaOC]

Thank you @MinaKamina for this update.

 

[MinaKamina]

The court in León has summoned 76 experts and witnesses to appear at the trial. The trial (by jury) is expected to be upgraded from Astorga to León. Due to the busy schedule, it will not take place before january 2017. The Thiem family has joined the proceedings and the court has requested an English translator in order to follow the testimony of Cedric Thiem.

The prosecutor, Maria Tornadijo, gives special relevance to the testimony of the officers of the National Police who took part in the transfer of the accused from Grandas de Salime in Asturias to Astorga. During this helicopter flight, MB confessed to the crime. Also of high importance is the testimony of the police officers who discovered the place where the body of the deceased was hidden, following the directions given by MB. The policemen state that without his help, it would not have been possible to locate the body.
One of the most important civilian witnesses will be the employee of the bank office in Astorga where MB traded 1,132 dollars. It was later proven that Denise was carrying these at the time of the crime.

Meanwhile, the defense lawyer argues that there is no proof and no witnesses.
Prosecutor Maria Tornadijo accuses MB of two offenses: one of assassination, for which she demands twenty years in prison, and one of robbery with violence, for which she requests another five years in prison. MB could well spend the next 25 years behind bars.

http://www.ileon.com/actualidad/063...-para-el-juicio-por-la-muerte-de-la-peregrina
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...-thiem/idEdicion-2016-05-18/idNoticia-997783/
http://www.larazon.es/sociedad/angel-se-enfrenta-a-25-anos-de-carcel-DP12486137#.Ttt1FloMyOV420u

 

[Bala]

Thank you for the update.

 

[Andrea Mayfield]

Thank you for the update. I walked the Camino several weeks after Denise's disappearance and have often thought about her and the family.

 

[MinaKamina]

More details of the case have emerged in the Spanish press. Apparently, the secreto del sumario has been lifted, at least partially.
The confession of MAMB before the judge in september 2015 was filmed, and this video is on the internet now.
There is also a video of the 'reconstruction' at the presumed location of the crime the next day. This is not a detailed role play, you see the suspect walking on a path and through the bushes and fields. He speaks, he gesticulates. This reconstruction was made before the autopsy was completed. The results of the autopsy indicate a crime that was far more severe than what he admits to (before he denied everything).
A psychiatric report has also been made. According to the psychiatric report, MAMB moves as a predator with a sexual motive. Money from the victims is an additional benefit, not the main objective. The psych who attended the reconstruction is of the opinion that the story that MAMB tells about the attack and timing of aggression and the cause of it, is not credible. The expert thinks the story is based on his behavior in previous cases and held together by the verbal and non-verbal way of telling the facts as a surprise attack. MAMB 'does not confess all, unlike the other circumstances of the facts, because he is aware in some way that the motivation for his attacks will worsen his legal status.'

Further details of the attack on Josie, the German pilgrim, have also been published. She was tasered twice yet managed to fight the attacker off. After the attack, the police found her sunglasses at the door of MAMB's house. In september 2015, a hat was found in the house. Investigators claim that this hat belonged to Denise. MAMB denies this, says the hat is his own.

Analysis of phone records shows that calls from MAMB to his partner in Madrid lasted usually 10 minutes average. With exception of the call on April 5, the day of the murder. That call lasted 47 minutes. Investigators suspect that MAMB needed to unwind and have subpoenaed the now ex-partner.

The lawyer of MAMB stresses once again that there is no proof, that his client denies the facts and he worries that his client will not get a fair trial by jury with all the publicity about details of the case.

http://www.ileon.com/actualidad/063...llo?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
http://elprogreso.galiciae.com/noti...-reconstruye-el-crimen-entre-lagrimas-y-risas
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...regrina-comporta-como-depredador_1078715.html
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...onoce-miguel-angel-munoz-agresor_1078966.html
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...niega-haya-pruebas-matara-denise_1079220.html

 

[grayland]

Thank you for your continued and detailed updates.

 

[Saint Mike II]

Mina - thank you for a very informative, yet level, report. I think about Denise and the pain that her family continue to suffer. I only hope that when the trial does start (January 2017?) that any US media show the same sensitivity that the post above have shown (especially to the Thiem family). We might need an update around the trial time and offer a few prayers for the Thiem's. Thanks again. Cheers

 

[domigee]

Yes, the pain continues...

 

[MinaKamina]

An important development in the legal case against the alleged murderer of Denise Thiem has been reported by Diario de León. Apparently, the reporter dug deep into the case files and found that the Police discovered a nail of Denise at the spot where the suspect said he buried her for the first time. The suspect later withdrew his entire confession.

A confession has to be supported by proof. Else anybody might confess to anything.
The case against the suspect was already strong. The find that is now reported, puts the suspect and Densie in the same spot. His own confession is no longer disproved as his lawyer claims, in fact, it has been proven.

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-lugar-donde-munoz-dijo-escondio_1098179.html

The proverbial needle in the haystack. And they found it. What a relief for the family and friends of Denise.

 

[Kanga]

@Suzi Wooldridge Denise is an exceptional case. As far as we know she is the only pilgrim in the modern era who was murdered on Camino. If we were to carry a shell for every pilgrim who has died we would not be able to move - sadly we have car and bike accidents, drownings, people who go astray in the mountains, and people whose health brings finality.
Let us carry them all in our hearts.

 

[wayfarer]

We are drifting off the topic here which is Post arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem. There is another Thread covering the sad death of Jeroen. Please lets not mix them up.

 

[JeepsNRoses]

We are drifting off the topic here which is Post arrest news in the case of Denise Thiem. There is another Thread covering the sad death of Jeroen. Please lets not mix them up.

Sorry. Deleted my posts to circumvent leading more posts off topic. Newish and still learning the rules. Sincere apologies.

 

[MinaKamina]

On November 25, International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, Ponferrada has remembered Denise Thiem with a mural near the albergue and the Capilla del Carmen. The painting was made by Asier Vera, it is huge and the image is very powerful (even though it does not quite look like Denise in real life).

Picture of the mural at link. Could someone please post it on this thread? I don't know how to do that, but it would be nice to have it here.
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...em-mural/0003_201611201611251480074591270.htm

 

[dougfitz]

Could someone please post it on this thread? I don't know how to do that, but it would be nice to have it here.
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...em-mural/0003_201611201611251480074591270.htm

@MinaKamina, have you arranged permission from the image's owner for that? It's a nice image, but perhaps viewing it at the link is the best option if we don't have the rights to publish it here.

 

[natefaith]

Recent news says that the trial will start March 13, 2017, in León: http://www.laopinioncoruna.es/sucesos/2016/11/26/juicio-crimen-peregrina-denise-thiem/1129055.html

 

[peregrina2000]

The Diario de León has an article on the trial in Denise's case.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias/provincia/confesion-asesino-peregrina-es-valida_1136535.html

Main points: Trial will begin on March 13. 80 witnesses will testify. The accused's confession has been deemed valid (admissible?).

 

[JabbaPapa]

The accused's confession has been deemed valid (admissible?).

It seems the judge rejected the defence lawyer's attempts to have all evidence from the accused, including the confession, thrown out, from a claim of "illegal detention" which was also rejected.

 

[peregrina2000]

I just read that on Monday there will be an appeal from the trial judge's order before a regional court in Burgos. http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...ina-insiste-ilegalidad-detencion_1136692.html

The lawyer is arguing the following points

-- that the arrest of the accused was illegal and without sufficient cause
-- that the search of his property was conducted in violation of his rights
-- that the evidence resulting from that illegal search is inadmissible at trial as "fruit of the poisonous tree."
-- that the testimony of two other foreigners who will describe assaults in the area should be excluded.

The state is seeking 25 years in prison for the accused.

 

[MinaKamina]

The Superior Court of Castilla and León in Burgos has rejected the appeal filed by the defense of MAMB, the confessed murderer of Denise Thiem.
With this ruling the decree issued by Provincial Court of León of 16 November 2016 is confirmed in every respect.
The trial will go ahead as planned.
http://www.leonoticias.com/astorga/...stima-recurso-interpuesto-20170214151550.html
Already in November, the presiding magistrate of the Court in León had declared that there were several indications against the accused. One of the indications was the occurence of previous attacks on peregrinas next to his home.
Previously, there had been some doubts if the testimonies of the Chinese peregrina and the peregrina from Germany would be allowed in Court. The recent decision of the Superior Court confirms once again that these testimonies are admissible.

Meanwhile, it is reported that the Spanish Police and the Guardia Civíl are still looking for clues about possible other victims of MAMB.
http://www.elcorreogallego.es/santi...thiem/idEdicion-2017-01-15/idNoticia-1036421/

 

[MinaKamina]

The trial for the murder of the American pilgrim Denise Thiem is starting in León today with the selection of the jury. The accused, MAMB, who confessed, is expected to plead not guilty. The Prosecution demands 25 years for assassination and robbery with violence. The Defense will seek a complete acquittal, since there is nothing that links the accused to the crime. Subsidiarily, they request total or partial exemption due to serious psychiatric illness, because this illness alters the perception of reality of MAMB.

The lawyers for the family represent them pro bono, due to the fact that the family lacks the financial resources to pay for their representation.

The accused will be interrogated tomorrow. Cedric Thiem, Denise's brother, is expected to testify via video link on a later date.

http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-denise-completamente-destrozada_1144847.html

 

[MTtoCamino]

Thank you MinaKamina

 

[Anemone del Camino]

The Defence will seek a complete acquittal, since there is nothing that links the accused to the crime.
http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias...-denise-completamente-destrozada_1144847.html

I would be careful making such claims. The defence may seek a complete acquittal since "it claims" there is nothing..." may be more correct.

 

[MinaKamina]

I would be careful making such claims. The defence may seek a complete acquittal since "it claims" there is nothing..." may be more correct.

Until there is a verdict and this verdict is confirmed, everything is a claim, the claim of assassination and robbery with violence included. I just do not mention that every time.

This is not a matter of the defence may seek. They seek complete acquittal and they have been loud, clear and consistent about that for months. They tried to have the case thrown out for that reason. Fat chance - and no success - but that did not stop them either.

 

[Anemone del Camino]

Until there is a verdict and this verdict is confirmed, everything is a claim, the claim of assassination and robbery with violence included. I just do not mention that every time.

This is not a matter of the defence may seek. They seek complete acquittal and they have been loud, clear and consistent about that for months. They tried to have the case thrown out for that reason. Fat chance - and no success - but that did not stop them either.

Until there is a verdict and this verdict is confirmed, everything is a claim, the claim of assassination and robbery with violence included. I just do not mention that every time.

This is not a matter of the defence may seek. They seek complete acquittal and they have been loud, clear and consistent about that for months. They tried to have the case thrown out for that reason. Fat chance - and no success - but that did not stop them either.

Appologies, I replaced "will" by "may" in my post by mistake. But that was not the issue. The issue I was pointing out was saying for a fact that there is no evidence, "that there is nothing that links the accused to the crime".

 

[MinaKamina]

Appologies, I replaced "will" by "may" in my post by mistake. But that was not the issue. The issue I was pointing out was saying for a fact that there is no evidence, "that there is nothing that links the accused to the crime".

The defendant is presumed innocent until he is proven guilty. At this moment, legally he is a suspect, but he is not guilty because he is presumed innocent.
The evidence presented in court has no links to the defendant, unless this is proven in court. There are various indications that the defendant has something to do with the death of the pilgrim. The Higher Court decided that the case could go through for that reason, but these indications have not yet been confirmed as proof.
It is up to the jury to decide if the evidence presented is proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I have my personal opinion about the defendant, and a clear wish for the outcome of this trial, but I try to keep it out of my writing.

 

[William Marques]

I am sure both of you have the best intentions to give us factual information about this trial. I do not believe there is anything to be gained by continuing the conversation between Mina and Anemone in this thread, please use the Conversation function. Thank you

 

[notion900]

Link to article today in El Mundo
http://www.elmundo.es/sociedad/2017/03/13/58c54c60e5fdea0c348b45a4.html

 

[MinaKamina]

MAMB, the man accused of murdering pilgrim Denise Thiem, was expected to testify today in court. He would declare himself innocent and answer all questions, his lawyer had stated. However, when his turn came, he used his right to remain silent and refused to testify.
According to his lawyer, this does not mean that MAMB admits to the facts, these facts (subject of the trial) will have to be clarified on the basis of the expert evidence.

http://www.elmundo.es/sociedad/2017/03/14/58c7c37a468aeb86078b45f0.html