Pagan origins of the Camino

Kathor1 · Feb 20, 2023

Speaking of which, when people don't know how to translate a Latin word such as peregrinus correctly and in a meaningful way into their language because they are not aware of meaning and context at the time the word was used, you can find the most hilarious howlers.

There are, for example, books and websites related to history telling you about peoples in the wider Danube/Hungary area who are described by Pliny as civitas peregrina, and they render this, in all seriousness, as a wandering tribe.

In reality, Pliny refers to a feature of Roman administration: When the Romans created a new Roman province out of the foreign territory that they had conquered, it was customary to create administrative entities under whose jurisdiction the natives are placed ('civitas peregrina'). So the term refers to a foreign town or county or region etc (peregrinus = foreign) with administrative status under Roman law. It was not meant to describe either a wandering tribe or a town full of pilgrims or an online community of pilgrims like this forum.

I have often wondered whether some enterprising self-publishing modern writer had spotted in a scholarly work that there were indeed civitates peregrinae aka peregrine communities in Spain in Roman times and concluded that they must have been full of pilgrims. But, alas, I have no proof for this speculation.

David Tallan · Feb 22, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
I have no doubt the Camino pre-dates Christianity by a considerable time. Homo Neanderthalis was probably dodging Mastodons on the Meseta.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Camino". We certainly know that human habitation in Spain goes back a very long time indeed. So the land was there and there were people there. Does that make a Camino? Of that I'm not so sure. I doubt very much that your Homo Neanderthalis dodging Mastodons was walking from the Pyrenees to the coast (or the spot some 90 km inland where Santiago is now to be found). He or she probably never left the Meseta. Would one thus say he was on the Camino?

Tincatinker · Feb 22, 2023

David Tallan said:
Would one thus say he was on the Camino?

On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left Africa

David Tallan · Feb 22, 2023

Tincatinker said:
On it, but not of it perhaps? And by the time they got to Atapuerca it had been a long walk (and a lot of personal development) since they left Africa

I don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.

Tincatinker · Feb 22, 2023

David Tallan said:
I don't know. For me just being on the Meseta where the Camino would one day be doesn't put them on the Camino any more than being on the piece of land in the middle of Spain where Madrid would one day in the future be wouldn't put someone in Madrid.

Depends on whether you believe in ghosts

JJW · Feb 22, 2023

Samten said:
Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.

Thanks so much and Buen Camino!

Samten,

Thanks for your question because it has generated a great reading list on the topic from Kathar1na and others.

Aside from the articles in spanish and her references of classical writers, Kathar1na has also given a link to the english book Heritage, Pilrimage and the Camino to Finisterre which gives extensive bibliography for its preface as well as for each chapter. Anybody who wants to do some balanced research in order to arrive at an informed opinion on the question, will find what they are looking for, for starters, based on Kathar1na’s links.

The Heritage book is very informative both for history and also for looking into contemporary camino issues which pilgrims will experience as they interact with the local stakeholders and providers of service. As a collection of essays, you can pick and choose what to read per your interest. I look forward to reading he whole book.

This question of origins deserves more than just a cursory thumbs up or down. Looking into the question without an entrenched opinion, opens up a richer appreciation of where pilgrimage in Spain has been and where it is going. Uncertainty is what keeps us still looking. Green and growing not ripe and rotting.

Cheers to Samten, Kathar1na and the others who have followed their lead! Let’s keep the conversation going with commentary about what the literature mentioned above is reporting.

hecate105 · Feb 25, 2023

Happy to emerge from the wardrobe - I am defo a pagan and ecstatic to be so!!

JabbaPapa · Feb 25, 2023

Gerard Griffin · Feb 25, 2023

Where's the Spanish Inquisition now that we really need them? You never know when you need an Inquisitor. Is there a phone number we can call when we meet an unrepentant pagan pilgrim?

Tincatinker · Feb 25, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
Where's the Spanish Inquisition now that we really need them? You never know when you need an Inquisitor. Is there a phone number we can call when we meet an unrepentant pagan pilgrim?

Just text to 666. All responses can be disregarded as mythical at best

And a thought from a corner and to paraphrase Bonhoeffer: “then they came for the pagans, and I did not speak…”. You know how it goes

Pelegrin · Feb 26, 2023

I learnt in this thread that pagan comes from paganus the one who lives in a pagus ( a village, an area ). In Spanish the word " pago" is payment, but another meaning is the same as latin pagus. This meaning is today referred almost only to "vino de pago", that is an special denomination of high quality wines that only twenty wineries in Spain have. Some people in Spain think that a "vino de pago" is an "expensive wine" ( payment) because they don't know the second meaning.

David Tallan · Feb 26, 2023

Pelegrin said:
I learnt in this thread that pagan comes from paganus the one who lives in a pagus ( a village, an area ). In Spanish the word " pago" is payment, but another meaning is the same as latin pagus. This meaning is today referred almost only to "vino de pago", that is an special denomination of high quality wines that only twenty wineries in Spain have. Some people in Spain think that a "vino de pago" is an "expensive wine" ( payment) because they don't know the second meaning.

And "pagar" would be to walk from village to village, especially when done with a tour operator.

Kathor1 · Feb 26, 2023

And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

SabsP · Feb 26, 2023

Kathar1na said:
And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

Cheers @Kathar1na for keeping us focused on the content of this interesting thread!
Still have to read alot of the references you posted here earlier.

David Tallan · Feb 26, 2023

Kathar1na said:
And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.

I'm in the middle of reading Jews, Food, and Spain by Hélène Jawhara Piñer. One of the main sources of our knowledge of medieval Sephardic food practices is records of the Inquisition when people were accused of secretly being Jewish based on the foods they prepared and ate.

Pelegrin · Feb 26, 2023

Kathar1na said:
And btw, @Gerard Griffin, a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading.

The last "auto de fe" against witches was in 1610 in Zugarramurdi (Navarra). The famous Salem (Massachusetts) trial was in 1692.

Kathor1 · Feb 26, 2023

David Tallan said:
Jews, Food, and Spain by Hélène Jawhara Piñer. One of the main sources of our knowledge of medieval Sephardic food practices is records of the Inquisition when people were accused of secretly being Jewish based on the foods they prepared and ate.

Yes, I remember that we discussed this some time ago. Really interesting. I think that whole protocols of interviewing "witnesses" such as servants or maids in the households of people who had voluntarily or under coercion converted from the Jewish faith to the Christian faith have been preserved.

The Spanish Inquisition mostly persecuted people they suspected as secretly being Jews or Muslims after the forced conversions. Other heretics, I believe, were a distant third place.

I have no idea. I read that Spanish Inquisition had jurisdiction only over Christians. Therefore, only those who self-identified as Christians could be investigated and trialed by it. And also, that the King of Spain ordered that that the inquisitors should never proceed against the Indians (in the Spanish colonies) - at the time the only "pagans" in the Spanish empire.

So really, it all has nothing to do with pagans, and besides, it all happened after the pilgrimage to Saint James in Galicia had not only been established but was already in decline and losing popularity. So absolutely no connection with the existence of a potential pre-Christian Camino.

juanxxiii · Oct 13, 2023

Kathar1na said:
I got sidetracked ... .

In any case, if I have not yet made it clear enough: I am less interested in what they would call "original research" or "own research" on Wikipedia which is not allowed there, at least in principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

What I am interested in are the actual historical sources, over centuries, that contain claims about anything that could be classified as a pilgrimage of some sort to the region around today's Santiago and how these authors contributed to the narratives that we hear today and that are often presented as facts while they are largely based on fiction when you actually look at the sources. I find that quite fascinating for more than one reason.

From this point of view, Juan Satti's twelve articles are a real treasure trove because he has compiled so many details about these sources, what they say in the original version and in a Spanish translation and in particular, unlike so many other contemporary articles, books and websites, he provides sufficient information (authors, titles of their books, etc) that makes it possible to find and access such sources directly. And with the World Wide Web being the marvellous tool that it is, these sources are now accessible to all of us who have an interest in this topic!

Thanks for yours words, but the articles are 16 and the others more complet the history of finisterre and not in these serial. Searching! i m living in finisterre and living its history in every inch.Coming soon

"El origen del Camino de Santiago XVI- capítulo final:"De Camino espiritual a meganegocio eclesial" - Adiante Galicia

Juan Gabriel Satti Bouzas. Accede al capítulo anterior

www.adiantegalicia.es

malingerer · Oct 14, 2023

estorildon said:
I saw this thread going sideways as soon as it was posted. I hope Tinca can bring back some sense and order to it.
Are we discussing "pagans" or are we researching "pre-historic" migrations?
There were immigration trails worldwide since creation and these immigrants/pilgrims followed certain stars or a constellation in the galaxy of stars to what they thought might be the end of the world. It always seems to be westward for some reason, perhaps to follow the sun? The Native Americans, the Basque, the Celts were all the same.
No one is going to reveal much because there is nothing to be revealed.,
Other than perhaps ancient mankind was seeking away to find a way back to the planet that deposited us here in the first place?

That last sentence reverberates with me as it forms one of the roots of my poetry in the thread Poems for Seekers.
Gracias

Samarkand.

Gerard Griffin · Oct 14, 2023

Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

Kathor1 · Oct 14, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading ?

A comment which I see I ended with my poker face icon.

Let me start with a big . I love Monty Python, I enjoy funny remarks, whether absurdly witty, or erudite witty, or silly witty, or a clever pun, or just a good joke. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" is of course such an old joke that it has already gotten a long beard. Posted to death one might be tempted to say. I thought it was funny to turn it into an opportunity for a bit of further education. Anyway, what I don't enjoy so much are funny joke remarks (i.e. funny in the mind of the writer) that are plastered indiscriminately just anywhere in any thread where there is an empty space to be filled with typing and a "post reply" button to press. I cannot say whether I am the only forum member with such a reaction, there may be one or two others.

This is an old thread that has been dormant for more than half a year and I don't know why it surfaced yesterday nor do I quite understand content and purpose of yesterday's comment by @juanxxiii. He is apparently a new member, so welcome to the forum.

Kirkie · Oct 14, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
Thanks for the history lesson, but I was of course using the word "pagan" in a looser, less technical sense, in order to look at the Camino experience of the many modern pilgrims who don't see their spirituality in Christian terms. Also, my suggestion that the redoubtable Inquisitors might become involved (no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition) was what we term a "joke", i.e. a remark not intended to be taken literally ... A concept with which those on the forum often seem unfamiliar.

@Gerard Griffin I would like to say this: literally? - hmm! How can we cope with that on a 'flat' forum? I am unfamiliar with a lot of nuances. Something I learned in a real space many many years ago was that humour is ~~almost~~ impossible to translate into a different space than the one in which it is born.

Gerard Griffin · Oct 14, 2023

Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Kirkie · Oct 14, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Take it easy today. I will.
When all is said and one, more is said than done. A very wise, if unlettered lady, shared that with me as we cleaned and set up a dining room many many years ago! Seriously, and genuinely, have a lovely day.

Gerard Griffin · Oct 14, 2023

Thanks, you too

Kirkie · Oct 14, 2023

Gerard Griffin said:
Very true, Kirkie, it's all anthropological ... People from different cultures will always grate on each other's nerves, as the testiness of the preceding post indicates. Once it gets personal, that's when I abandon the discussion. It's a pity that the original idea: pagan motives for Camino ... Couldn't be pleasantly and cogently explored. The mysteries of the Germanic soul, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Re-reading: pagan motives for Camino. What do you actually mean? The word camino means way, path.
Caminar, to walk.
The Camino with a capital letter is hinting at the Santiago route. Yes?
Not that I have read preceding posts, please humour me, although not jocularly !
True confession. I was born post WW2. Into a beautiful socialist dream, in my opinion, equal opportunity for all.
Did it work?
N0, sadly. I still can dream..
This is not a pm, for anyone else who wishes to pop in to the conversation!

Gerard Griffin · Oct 14, 2023

I mean that people of various kinds walk from various places towards Santiago, and they have some reason for doing so. Many have reasons that can be described as "religious", others as "spiritual". Modern paganism (the term is used loosely, so let's not go all dictionary just yet) interests me, and it seems clear that pilgrimage on the Camino trails predates Christianity. I wonder how and why modern "pagans" take to the Camino, and how they experience sharing it with the more conventionally religious types? Just a question ...

JabbaPapa · Oct 14, 2023

I really do not understand the purposes of those trying to "paganize" a Catholic Christian pilgrimage.

Tincatinker · Oct 14, 2023

And I, a self-identifying pagan from generations in recollection of self-identifying pagans, with firm belief in our collection of old Gods and old ways - I sometimes get seriously pissed off that every aethiestic, agnostic and “can’t be arsed” gets classed as a pagan. Or worse still tries to wear our Tshirt.

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

Kathar1na said:
I guess that is a reaction to my comment: a tiny history lesson for you - after all, you are posting in the Culture, History and Language for pilgrims subforum: The Inquisition did not persecute pagans. They persecuted heretics. BIG difference. I recommend Wikipedia for further reading ?

A comment which I see I ended with my poker face icon.

Let me start with a big . I love Monty Python, I enjoy funny remarks, whether absurdly witty, or erudite witty, or silly witty, or a clever pun, or just a good joke. "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" is of course such an old joke that it has already gotten a long beard. Posted to death one might be tempted to say. I thought it was funny to turn it into an opportunity for a bit of further education. Anyway, what I don't enjoy so much are funny joke remarks (i.e. funny in the mind of the writer) that are plastered indiscriminately just anywhere in any thread where there is an empty space to be filled with typing and a "post reply" button to press. I cannot say whether I am the only forum member with such a reaction, there may be one or two others.

This is an old thread that has been dormant for more than half a year and I don't know why it surfaced yesterday nor do I quite understand content and purpose of yesterday's comment by @juanxxiii. He is apparently a new member, so welcome to the forum.

Sorry, I´m Juan G, Satti and I saw yesterday this forum. I´m so glad for your interest in my articles.
Sincerely best regards

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

JabbaPapa · Oct 14, 2023

juanxxiii said:
I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

Philtration · Oct 14, 2023

Tincatinker said:
And I, a self-identifying pagan from generations in recollection of self-identifying pagan, with firm belief in our collection of old Gods and old ways - I sometimes get seriously pissed off that every aethiestic, agnostic and “can’t be arsed” gets classed as a pagan. Or worse still tries to wear our Tshirt.

This brings up the obvious next stage of a camino discussion, who are the real pagans. ; )

JabbaPapa · Oct 14, 2023

Philtration said:
This brings up the obvious next stage of a camino discussion, who are the real pagans. ; )

Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
Problem with this is, then we're discussing religion rather than History ...

Humanity history include the religions- The problem is believe that Truly religion is chistianism and the others RELIGIONS are "myths"

JabbaPapa · Oct 14, 2023

juanxxiii said:
It is a Christian pilgrimage to a Christian shrine, ACTUALLY . But the "pagan" origin `cause other pilgrims walked first and marked the path. Like the Romans made the viarium , our streets of today. Not sure what in this fact is hard to comprehend.

There was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.

It did not exist, therefore there was no "pagan" "pilgrimage" to that place.

The entire notion is completely anachronistic.

SabsP · Oct 14, 2023

juanxxiii said:
I really do not understand the purposes of Catholic Church trying to "christianize" every place from antiques religions. The religions overlap like layers of an onion

Immensely interesting to talk about Juan but take into consideration that one of the forumrules is that you cannot get too deep into discussing religion here.
It will end that people get into a tantrum and throw their toys out of the pram, start crying or get into endless discussions about the origins of the Christmas tree or the Transubstantiation.

Better to make some conversations through pm .

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

SabsP said:
Immensely interesting to talk about Juan but take into consideration that one of the forumrules is that you cannot get too deep into discussing religion here.
It will end that people get into a tantrum and throw their toys out of the pram, start crying or get into endless discussions about the origins of the Christmas tree or the Transubstantiation.

Better to make some conversations through pm .

sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;D

SabsP · Oct 14, 2023

juanxxiii said:
sorry i´m in europe: is PM ;D

Private message. The small envelope in the right upper corner of this forum.
Europe too here btw

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
There was no such place as Santiago de Compostela in pagan times.

It did not exist, therefore there was no "pagan" "pilgrimage" to that place.

The entire notion is completely anachronistic.

exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're right (read my explications in my articles. santiago is a city without beach, and the pilgrims' shell????
Have a good day

Gerard Griffin · Oct 14, 2023

Nicholas of Cusa settled this fascinating issue in the 15th century ... Look at his "De Docta Ignorantia"

juanxxiii · Oct 14, 2023

I don't talk about God or philosophy. I talk about who made the way of James based on historical documents and archeology. And who appropriated the way for bussines, of course
greetings to all

Pafayac · Oct 15, 2023

It is true that christianism (and probably most of religions) has embedded some parts coming from previous cults, mainly festivals (at the solstice for example).
But I cannot find evidences that there was a pagan pilgrimage before the Camino de Santiago. However the current pilgrimage has begun not before the VIIIe century: if some other pilgrimage has existed there, the History should have kept memory of it. Perhaps there was an ancient cult of stones in Muxia, but it was local.
I think that St James Way has begun for political reason: against the Moors and in order for Compostela to take precedence on Tolede church (which was the main church in Wisigothic Spain)
The way to St James from Pyrenees (Camino Frances) follows a previous roman way, the via Trajana, but it was an economical itinerary, not a religious one.

JabbaPapa · Oct 15, 2023

juanxxiii said:
exactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre

No it isn't.

Pafayac said:
But I cannot find evidences that there was a pagan pilgrimage before the Camino de Santiago. However the current pilgrimage has begun not before the VIIIe century: if some other pilgrimage has existed there, the History should have kept memory of it. Perhaps there was an ancient cult of stones in Muxia, but it was local.
I think that St James Way has begun for political reason: against the Moors and in order for Compostela to take precedence on Tolede church (which was the main church in Wisigothic Spain)
The way to St James from Pyrenees (Camino Frances) follow a previous roman way, the via Trajana, but it was an economical itinerary, not a religious one.

Exactly.

Tincatinker · Oct 15, 2023

juanxxiii said:
Iexactly, the true pilgrimage is to Finisterre, end to road, The catholic way is a fake completely anachronistic: you're right (read my explications in my articles. santiago is a city without beach, and the pilgrims' shell????
Have a good day

The true pilgrimage is to where? How can the pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago be to Finisterre? The bones of Santiago do not rest at Finisterre. They never have and they likely never will. @juanxxiii i think you are trying to cross hobble two traditions as if they were ever or ever could be one.
I have been pilgrim. I have made pilgrimage to the bones of Santiago; I have made pilgrimage to the end-of-the-world; I have made pilgrimage to the broken boat that will, one day, carry me across the sundering seas to that island of eternal summer where, among others, my gran is waiting.

Each and every pilgrimage has been as valid, valued and valuable as the others. I’m, frankly, astonished that you could make the assertions you have unless you’re just another wind-up merchant or internet troll or you just haven’t bothered to read the fascinating threads that weave these stories into our lives.

Of course there are no facts. Facts are gold coin, in hand. Everything else is illusion

Gerard Griffin · Oct 15, 2023

We are all pilgrims, on the same journey, to the same place ... Buen Camino, all

Rebekah Scott · Oct 15, 2023

Joe Walsh said:
Fascinating! Thank you for the facts. Here is a narrative from the local turismo and a picture of the castro foundations. There is also the El Rocio in Andalusia, and I learned last year that there is also a local Spring romeria honoring The Lady in Roncesvalles.

“O Facho Mount is located at an altitude of 184 metres, in Costa da Vela. It takes its name from the look-out post erected on its summit. The archaeological interventions established that the first human settlement goes back to the Bronze Age (9th century B.C.E.). A fort and pre-Roman sanctuary was built in the 4th century B.C.E., which remained intact until the 1st century B.C.E. and whose ruins are still preserved. In the 3rdand 4th centuries, a Galician-Roman sanctuary was erected in order to cater to the ancient beliefs. Later on, in the 17th century, a military lookout was built atop of the mount. Throughout the centuries, Monte do Facho was home to many different life expressions, and all of them are part of Galician history. In addition, the top of the mount boasts glorious panoramic views of the Cíes Islands, the cliffs, and the rías.”

Be very careful with "facts" provided by local turismos. They propagate the most spectacular moonshine imaginable.

Tincatinker · Oct 15, 2023

Fact: when God made Men she laughed for eons

hecate105 · Oct 15, 2023

dick bird said:
Debating the meaning of 'pagan'! Makes a very pleasant change from debating the meaning of 'pilgrim'.

I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...)
But tis fun to read all the debating.....

Tincatinker · Oct 15, 2023

One other thought: for fans of Peter Pan or Wonderful Life; for students of Shakespeare reading a mid-summers nights dream (punctuation varies by folio). For those who will toss a coin in a fountain, off a bridge or even into a beggars hat; will never burn bread or spill salt without making an offer in appeasement: for those who still cross their fingers when they tell a lie; for those who’ll turn the “”,”” if a black cat crosses their path: I know it’s a comfort to believe that it’s only what you believe in can hurt you or support you. Truth is we’re still trying to sort out that bit. But if a devil bites yer bum bite back

Kathor1 · Oct 16, 2023

hecate105 said:
I am a pagan pilgrim! and I knows what I is and what I believes.... (yes - I is from Devon...) But tis fun to read all the debating.....

I agree, some of it is quite amusing.

While I was puzzling about the purpose of one particular cultural contribution in this thread (I‘ve still not yet figured it out) and read your comment and similar recent comments I was thinking that there is now doubt whatsoever concerning the fact that people of all faiths and none walk the Camino trails these days: Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, Lapsed Catholics, Protestants, a whole range of people who describe themselves as Spiritual but not Religious … but does this tell us anything about the pre-9th century history of the space between say Roncesvalles and Fisterra, or Salisbury and Muxia, or Ratisbon (Regensburg) and Santiago?

As a teenager, I devoured books about the Greek myths of Hercules and Zeus, the Germanic sagas of Wotan and Freya, the tales collected by the Grimms (the fat book with about 200 tales and not the slim version let alone a disneyfied one), heard Bible stories, heard and read the local myths of my native village … part and parcel of my cultural background and that of many other peregrin@s. Maybe I believe some of it. Maybe there is some historical reality or the other in them. Where I grew up, there are traces left of the people who lived there 7000 years ago. People of the Linear Pottery culture. I’ve picked up small shards of such pottery myself - it turns up occasionally when the fields are ploughed. Did these people walk 2200 km to Fisterra? For purposes of their beliefs - not ours. Isn’t that the question?

Gerard Griffin · Oct 16, 2023

Yes, that's exactly the question

JabbaPapa · Oct 16, 2023

How about the Christian origin of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, and Saint Mary at Lourdes and Fátima ?

And countless other pilgrimage destinations throughout Europe ?

Tincatinker · Oct 16, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
How about the Christian origin of the Ways of Saint James, Saint Peter, and Saint Mary at Lourdes and Fátima ?

And countless other pilgrimage destinations throughout Europe ?

Now that is definitely a topic for another thread. Maybe the Mods will oblige.

What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem? Was it 'cos while you can read the book or look at the picture/fresco there is still nothing quite like the place?

Pafayac · Oct 16, 2023

Tincatinker said:
What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from?

Do not forget than long before christianism, judaism has lead believers to Jerusalem: there was a single Temple for jews, and it was in Jerusalem. Several times a year, practicing jews were going to Jerusalem (most probably walking) for religious festivals.
Even before that, in India Benares was yet a target for pilgrimages.
Religions needs symbols (that is to say, something to gather): places are good thing to gather people in order to pray together, to practice a cult...
Therefore, middle-ages pilgrims were very used to pilgrimages. Mainly local pilgrimages, but also long-range ones...

JabbaPapa · Oct 16, 2023

Tincatinker said:
What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?

The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.

Regardless, Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem 2,500 + years ago were by by definition not "pagan". I'm quite dubious of this modern trend of shoving "paganism" into everything, including especially where it does not belong.

Kathor1 · Oct 16, 2023

Tincatinker said:
What occurs to me is the question of where did those early and later middle-ages pilgrims get the idea of pilgrimage from? If Faith is all you need why would you decide to walk all the way to Jerusalem?

Are you testing us and our knowledge ?

I happened to have called up my edition of Medieval European Pilgrimage c.700-c.1500 by Diana Webb today, and there it is already on pages 1 and 2 of the first chapter:

Christian pilgrimage, at least over long distances, was probably relatively uncommon before the reign of Constantine. [...] Initially, at least, Christianity challenged the apparently innate human inclination to believe that certain places are holier than others, either in their nature or because they have been specially sanctified by mythic events or by ritual. From the beginning there were those who remembered, in the words of St John's Gospel (4:24), that God was to be worshipped in the spirit and in truth, and that this could not be done more (or less) effectively in one place than in another.

A first step in the opposite direction was taken almost as soon as [...]

[You will have to read the rest for yourself - it is only 200 pages. ]

Tincatinker · Oct 16, 2023

JabbaPapa said:
The original pilgrimage to Jerusalem was clearly Jewish, and as to "Faith is all you need", it is a late 20th - early 21st Century notion of pilgrimage anachronistic with Antiquity.

Regardless, Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem 2,500 + years ago were by by definition not "pagan". I'm quite dubious of this modern trend of shoving "paganism" into everything, including especially where it does not belong.

I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere. I think I fairly firmly stated around about #2 in this very enjoyable thread that there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.

So, my question was, why.

@Kathar1na has opened a doorway or two. I’ll be wandering those pages for a while. Meanwhile, why? Why and where from came the Christian, Muslim, Buddhist urge for “Camino”. Why did the sparse populations of Neolithic Europe build sacred sites and then travel to them at certain times of year to perform ritualized practices. What’s the point?

Because if there is a point ( fans of Harry Nilsson may like to look away) then the point is what this thread started out in search of. And petulant rejection of the topic gets us no further than “nothing to see here, move along, move along”.

The Camino doesn’t need protection. It’ll cope with whatever it gets. But, surely, a deep dive into the origins of pilgrimage and, perhaps, our perceptions of pilgrimage is worthwhile.

And, @JabbaPapa, I think there is a potentially great thread for this forum delving the Christian origins of the Camino de Santiago. Just not this one.

JabbaPapa · Oct 17, 2023

Tincatinker said:
I’ve never, consciously, tried to shove my beliefs in anywhere.

I have not claimed you were doing so, I talked in an impersonal manner of a "modern trend" by some third parties -- just clarifying, if that helps.

VNwalking · Oct 17, 2023

Tincatinker said:
there is absolutely no argument, let alone evidence, for any pre-christian or any archaic pilgrimage to Santiago. There’s no, or at least very little, evidence of any pre-christian or archaic pilgrimage to Fisterra, Muxia, Roman Finis Terre or anywhere else on this poor benighted planet.

Tincatinker said:
And petulant rejection of the topic gets us no further than “nothing to see here, move along, move along”.

Now I'm genuinely confused.
Are you arguing both sides of the discussion, @Tincatinker , or am I misinterpreting what you wrote? Your first quote is far from petulant, so I assume you mean something else?

Tincatinker said:
But, surely, a deep dive into the origins of pilgrimage and, perhaps, our perceptions of pilgrimage is worthwhile.

Yes.
Especially the perceptions part, because (historically correct or not) this is what people bring to their own caminos.

Gerard Griffin · Oct 19, 2023

Great news in the Telegraph today ... At last the question of who is a pilgrim and who isn't has been resolved. This issue is beyond the scope of human reason, but we've received help from an unexpected source ... The headline reads "Bedbugs carried into Spanish hotels by Christian pilgrims".

So if you don't get bitten, sorry, you're not the real thing, you pagan tourist you

witchywit · Nov 11, 2023

Hello

Samten said:
Hello Fellow Pilgrims,
I am interested in researching the pagan origins of the Camino. Do you have any suggestions of resources and/or authors that I could look into? I don't have a clue where or how to begin.

Thanks so much and Buen Camino!

Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!

Gerard Griffin · Nov 11, 2023

This is what I'd like to hear, an answer to the OP's excellent question.

Tincatinker · Nov 11, 2023

witchywit said:
Hello

Greetings Samten! I am a witch and my co-podcaster and I have been researching the pagan/preChristian/native practices the preceded the Christian Camino. My copodcaster is a researcher and a professor. I am a high school English teacher with a masters degree is Spiritual Psychology. We both have been practicing witches for decades so we bring different experiences to the table both personally as well as professionally. We have been researching this for about a year now and are starting to organize the information. We would love to share this information with you!

Please share!

ShellToucher · Jan 27, 2024

Having only scanned the comments I'm not sure if anyone brought up the "pre-christian" origin of Cruz de Ferro yet? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read in a few places that the tradition dates back to travelers tossing a stone at what may have been just a cairn to a shrine to Hermes. This was done for safe travel, being he was the god of such. Anyone have anymore pieces of this origin story? Thanks in advance!

Tincatinker · Jan 27, 2024

ShellToucher said:
Having only scanned the comments I'm not sure if anyone brought up the "pre-christian" origin of Cruz de Ferro yet? Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read in a few places that the tradition dates back to travelers tossing a stone at what may have been just a cairn to a shrine to Hermes. This was done for safe travel, being he was the god of such. Anyone have anymore pieces of this origin story? Thanks in advance!

Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.

ShellToucher · Jan 27, 2024

Tincatinker said:
Worth putting Cruz Ferro into the forum search engine for some good discussion down the days. The Hermes, Mercury attribution has had a fairly good thrashing, as has the suggestion it was Galician peasants on their way to the Meseta for the grain harvest. There are no comfirmative historical records yet discovered but there is lots of “it is said”.

Fair enough! Thanks Tincattinker! (Heading there now!)

skysurf · Aug 1, 2024

Hi everyone!

I'm diving deep into this fascinating rabbit hole. We can trace the research and information back through time until there's nothing left to find. From there, only our imagination remains.

El Camino is a living archetype, a metaphor for life itself. Its origins are as ancient as the Stone Age. Academically, there's a limit to what we can uncover, but the essence of the Camino is imprinted in our collective unconscious.

From the womb of prehistoric caves and grottoes to the shores of Galicia, a megalithic necropolis at the end of the Known World. It represents the journey from birth to death.

Could the symbol of the shell represent the ancient worship of the non-dual Goddess? I'm referring to something even older than the "pagans" LOL.

The Camino is not only the dawn of religion but the dawn of spirituality itself.

Furthermore:

"The 42nd parallel North, besides being one of the Earth's imaginary circles, has been regarded since ancient times as one of the most energetically significant parallels on the globe, connecting religious sites of great importance such as Santiago de Compostela, its French Way, the region of Rome, the Gobi Desert, and the mountains of Hellas, among others. According to Tibetan tradition, the underground kingdom of Agartha and the city of Shambala are also located along this parallel."

skysurf · Aug 14, 2024

Tincatinker said:
Please share!

Hi Tincatinker!
I tried to send you a private message, but I didn't find how to do it. Sorry for sending this question in a public post.
I read in other of your posts that you knew of evidence of human remains or vessels in Galicia that are geographically as far away as the Danube River basin. Could you tell me a little more about this? Or could you send me the link to the post where you had already explained it? Thank you very much!

Tincatinker · Aug 14, 2024

skysurf said:
Hi Tincatinker!
I tried to send you a private message, but I didn't find how to do it. Sorry for sending this question in a public post.
I read in other of your posts that you knew of evidence of human remains or vessels in Galicia that are geographically as far away as the Danube River basin. Could you tell me a little more about this? Or could you send me the link to the post where you had already explained it? Thank you very much!

Hi @skysurf you’ve not got PM privileges yet. Need to have made more than 5 posts I believe.

Meanwhile, at post 14 in this very thread you’ll find a link to some interesting stuff. Just remember where Alice ended up

Tincatinker · Aug 14, 2024

OK, a departure but linked: just what were they up to in the Neolithic? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207lqdn755o

Apologies in advance to those who won’t be able to access the BBC link but it provides evidence that one of the crucial stones that form part of the Stonehenge complex was fetched from north- east Scotland. I’ll bet Amazon couldn’t deliver

falcon269 · Aug 15, 2024

Early Christians used the term "pagan" in the fourth century to describe the polytheists of earlier times. Latitude and longitude stumbled to life as early as the 12th century BCE, but needed the Earth to be round rather than flat to advance the science of navigation. I was taught that Columbus was afraid of falling off the edge of the world in 1492. He didn't.

Only imagination can limit what Pagans may have thought of long walks to spiritual destinations. I suspect imaginations require only faith, not science or proof. I do know that Pagans did not have Lambert Conformal Conic Projections to align stars and land, so maybe they just liked to wander and backfit the reasons for that preference over the evening campfire.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Tincatinker said:
Hi @skysurf you’ve not got PM privileges yet. Need to have made more than 5 posts I believe.

Meanwhile, at post 14 in this very thread you’ll find a link to some interesting stuff. Just remember where Alice ended up

Thanks!!
Is very interesting that the word "camino" comes from the Latin caminus, which originally meant "furnace" or "forge," referring to a place where fire was kindled or to an oven. This term is also related to the Greek word kaminos (κάμινος), which also referred to an oven.
Likely because roads were the ways through which items, such as ceramics that were baked or forged, were transported.

I will continue to consider the possibility of a connection with the pilgrim routes, which later evolved into trade routes. Prehistoric humans may have carried kaminos (ceramics with the buried remains of their ancestors) to be placed in a sacred location at the end of the known world. A megalithic necropolis along the Galician coast.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Tincatinker said:
OK, a departure but linked: just what were they up to in the Neolithic? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207lqdn755o

Apologies in advance to those who won’t be able to access the BBC link but it provides evidence that one of the crucial stones that form part of the Stonehenge complex was fetched from north- east Scotland. I’ll bet Amazon couldn’t deliver

This is super interesting! This reinforces the idea that caminos were used to transport sacred items.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

falcon269 said:
Early Christians used the term "pagan" in the fourth century to describe the polytheists of earlier times. Latitude and longitude stumbled to life as early as the 12th century BCE, but needed the Earth to be round rather than flat to advance the science of navigation. I was taught that Columbus was afraid of falling off the edge of the world in 1492. He didn't.

Only imagination can limit what Pagans may have thought of long walks to spiritual destinations. I suspect imaginations require only faith, not science or proof. I do know that Pagans did not have Lambert Conformal Conic Projections to align stars and land, so maybe they just liked to wander and backfit the reasons for that preference over the evening campfire.

Some facts:
Not only does the "Camino de Santiago" have pagan origins, but Christianity itself has roots in pagan traditions.
The exploration of America did not begin with Christians; "pagans," such as the Vikings, had already arrived in America before them.
Imagination does not require faith. It is a cognitive capacity and the source of scientific and technological development.

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

skysurf said:
Is very interesting that the word "camino" comes from the Latin caminus, which originally meant "furnace" or "forge," referring to a place where fire was kindled or to an oven. This term is also related to the Greek word kaminos (κάμινος), which also referred to an oven.
Likely because roads were the ways through which items, such as ceramics that were baked or forged, were transported.

"Likely because roads were the ways through which items, such as ceramics that were baked or forged, were transported" ? Are you serious or are you trolling us?

You may want to check your etymology again. While I am not a trained etymologist I can read and all I can read from no-nonsense sources says to me that the contemporary Spanish word camino does not come from Latin caminus. If it can be traced to a Latin word it's Late Latin/Early Medieval Latin and it's camminus. No fire or oven involved let alone baked clay.

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

Tincatinker said:
OK, a departure but linked: just what were they up to in the Neolithic? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207lqdn755o
Apologies in advance to those who won’t be able to access the BBC link but it provides evidence that one of the crucial stones that form part of the Stonehenge complex was fetched from north- east Scotland. I’ll bet Amazon couldn’t deliver

LOL, I just had a Déja Vu experience: news media article versus science journal article .

In this case, i.e. the stone from Stonehenge, my eyes glazed over even more quickly when ploughing through the scientific article in the journal Nature than in the case of the bones from Santiago and the scientific article in the journal Antiquity.

Below is the link for the seriously interested - but be warned that you will not find the words camino de Santiago or Saint James or even pilgrimage in it. Enjoy reading !

A Scottish provenance for the Altar Stone of Stonehenge - Nature

Mineral ages and chemical analysis of fragments of the Altar Stone from the Neolithic stone circle at Stonehenge suggest that it was transported from northeast Scotland, more than 750 km away, probably by sea.

www.nature.com

Damien Reynolds · Aug 16, 2024

I just like to walk and go to new places. And the people I meet. I like the people because typically they are kind, forgiving, charitable, and interesting. Personally I have no affiliation with any organized social institutions. But I do believe in the inherent goodness of the soul, mostly. I find that the proportion of those you meet on a walk to Santiago don't necessarily have better standards or anything than the general population, but they do have a will. I don't care about the origins or history. Just my own perspective.

JabbaPapa · Aug 16, 2024

Late Latin camminus is an unusual exception of a Gaulish common noun that entered the Romance languages generally via the Latin.

As to Latin paganus, of course it means primarily "inhabitant of a pagus", which is to say someone living in the countryside or in a village, and as an adjective it characterises the customs and traditions of those who live in such places.

The primary derived word is BTW not "pagan" but more simply "peasant", originally and still to a degree meaning inhabitant of a pagus > pays. It could be translated into the English "local" in some uses.

So I would be extremely wary of any 19th to 21st Century claims about so-called "pagans" in relation to early Christianity.

As to "pagan origins", what does this mean ? That peregrini (foreigners) travel from pagus to pagus (from one pueblo to the next) and that makes the Camino ?

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

Damien Reynolds said:
I just like to walk and go to new places. And the people I meet. I like the people because typically they are kind, forgiving, charitable, and interesting. Personally I have no affiliation with any organized social institutions. But I do believe in the inherent goodness of the soul, mostly. I find that the proportion of those you meet on a walk to Santiago don't necessarily have better standards or anything than the general population, but they do have a will. I don't care about the origins or history. Just my own perspective.

This is why we have a subforum about "Culture, History & Language". It allows those forum members who do not care about the origins or history to skip the threads in this subforum. No obligation to read let alone participate in these threads.

I have some interests in medieval pilgrimage history (European and not just Spanish Camino related), a strong interest in Gothic and Romanesque architecture, some interest in astronomy, some interest in geology, a bit of fauna and flora, a great interest in local cuisine, an interest in being able to speak Spanish with locals in Spain ... oh, and I would like to point out that I rarely speak with other pilgrims about medieval pilgrimage, Gothic and Romanesque art or astronomy when I am out walking. Especially not about astronomy or any Camino origin tale that predates Bishop Teodomiro. When I am on the Way, I let Camino peregrin@s believe whatever they enjoy believing in. Even when they share with me that they believe in ley lines ... I simply smile in a polite way.

On the forum, we occasionally have a new member who turns up and posts only about his pet topic. Anyone remembers the Templar guy? It usually does not last long and they are gone again ...

Buen Camino to all.

Damien Reynolds · Aug 16, 2024

Kathar1na said:
This is why we have a subforum about "Culture, History & Language". It allows those forum members who do not care about the origins or history to skip the threads in this subforum. No obligation to read let alone participate in these threads.

OK. Fair.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Kathar1na said:
"Likely because roads were the ways through which items, such as ceramics that were baked or forged, were transported" ? Are you serious or are you trolling us?

You may want to check your etymology again. While I am not a trained etymologist I can read and all I can read from no-nonsense sources says to me that the contemporary Spanish word camino does not come from Latin caminus. If it can be traced to a Latin word it's Late Latin/Early Medieval Latin and it's camminus. No fire or oven involved let alone baked clay.

"camino"
Del latín vulgar cammīnus, voz de origen celta, y este de origen hispánico o hispánica; cf. celtíbero camanon.

https://dle.rae.es/camino

"caminus"
Latin
Etymology

Borrowed from Ancient Greek κάμῑνος (kámīnos).

Noun

fireplace
furnace, forge
(poetic) Vulcan's forge
(figuratively) fire

caminus - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

JabbaPapa said:
Late Latin camminus is an unusual exception of a Gaulish common noun that entered the Romance languages generally via the Latin.

As to Latin paganus, of course it means primarily "inhabitant of a pagus", which is to say someone living in the countryside or in a village, and as an adjective it characterises the customs and traditions of those who live in such places.

The primary derived word is BTW not "pagan" but more simply "peasant", originally and still to a degree meaning inhabitant of a pagus > pays. It could be translated into the English "local" in some uses.

So I would be extremely wary of any 19th to 21st Century claims about so-called "pagans" in relation to early Christianity.

As to "pagan origins", what does this mean ? That peregrini (foreigners) travel from pagus to pagus (from one pueblo to the next) and that makes the Camino ?

The term pagan originated from the Latin word paganus, which originally meant "country dweller" or "rustic." It was used to describe people who lived in rural areas and who continued to practice traditional polytheistic religions, while Christianity spread more rapidly in urban areas.

As Christianity became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire and later in Europe, the word pagan began to take on a negative connotation. It was used by Christians to describe people who did not convert to Christianity, and it often carried implications of being backward, uncivilized, or even immoral. This pejorative usage reflected the belief that non-Christians were outside the "true" faith and were therefore spiritually inferior or misguided.

Over time, the term pagan has evolved and is used today in a more neutral or even positive sense by some groups to describe their religious practices that are rooted in pre-Christian or non-Abrahamic traditions. However, the historical usage of the term was indeed pejorative and was used to contrast "pagans" with the "civilized" Christians.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Kathar1na said:
LOL, I just had a Déja Vu experience: news media article versus science journal article .

In this case, i.e. the stone from Stonehenge, my eyes glazed over even more quickly when ploughing through the scientific article in the journal Nature than in the case of the bones from Santiago and the scientific article in the journal Antiquity.

Below is the link for the seriously interested - but be warned that you will not find the words camino de Santiago or Saint James or even pilgrimage in it. Enjoy reading !

A Scottish provenance for the Altar Stone of Stonehenge - Nature

Mineral ages and chemical analysis of fragments of the Altar Stone from the Neolithic stone circle at Stonehenge suggest that it was transported from northeast Scotland, more than 750 km away, probably by sea.

www.nature.com

I don't see a conflict between a news media article and a science journal article. Both are conveying the same information but using different language and levels of detail, tailored for different audiences. The core questions remain the same: How? and Why?

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

skysurf said:
"camino"
Del latín vulgar cammīnus, voz de origen celta, y este de origen hispánico o hispánica; cf. celtíbero camanon.

https://dle.rae.es/camino

"caminus"
Latin
Etymology

Borrowed from Ancient Greek κάμῑνος (kámīnos).

Noun

fireplace
furnace, forge
(poetic) Vulcan's forge
(figuratively) fire

caminus - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Indeed. Two words. Different roots. Two words look the same but have different meanings and different roots. Hint: That may be why French has chemin and cheminée. Or did you spot anything in the RAE that points to a Greek root?

Since you get your info from Wiktionary, I recommend that also consult their entry for camminus. Quote: First attested in writing in the late 7th century in Spain. Borrowed from Gaulish *kamman, from Proto-Celtic *kanxsman; compare Celtiberian kamanom and Irish céim (“step, degree”). Sheesh. I did not bother to doublecheck elsewhere. I am sure one can spin a great yarn about druids walking from Stonehenge to Santiago from this. Or was it some tribe from the Danube region carrying pots with ashes in them? We are still waiting for a link to a scientific report about either of these two tales.

camminus - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Kathar1na said:
Indeed. Two words. Different roots. Two words look the same but have different meaning and different roots. Hint: That's why French has chemin and cheminée. Or did you spot anything in the RAE that points to a Greek root?

Since you get your info from Wiktionary, I recommend that also consult their entry for camminus. Quote: First attested in writing in the late 7th century in Spain. Borrowed from Gaulish *kamman, from Proto-Celtic *kanxsman; compare Celtiberian kamanom and Irish céim (“step, degree”). Sheesh.

camminus - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

Thanks for that! I'm not trying to troll you; I just want to explore my thoughts. Please let me know if I'm off topic in this subforum 'pagan-origins-of-the-camino.'

If you're still waiting for a link to a scientific report about either of those two tales, then you're off topic and trolling me. Please find another forum subgroup, 'scientific-origins-of-the-camino.'

Furthermore, in the link you sent me, it says:

Alternative forms

cāmīnus

JabbaPapa · Aug 16, 2024

skysurf said:
The term pagan originated from the Latin word paganus, which originally meant "country dweller" or "rustic." It was used to describe people who lived in rural areas and who continued to practice traditional polytheistic religions, while Christianity spread more rapidly in urban areas.

An anachronistic claim, given that the Latin word paganus is centuries older than Christianity.

skysurf said:
As Christianity became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire and later in Europe, the word pagan began to take on a negative connotation.

You are attributing semantic development in mediaeval theology after the death of classical Graeco-Roman paganism to what it has no relation to.

skysurf said:
It was used by Christians to describe people who did not convert to Christianity, and it often carried implications of being backward, uncivilized, or even immoral. This pejorative usage reflected the belief that non-Christians were outside the "true" faith and were therefore spiritually inferior or misguided.

Given that the pejorative connotations of the word existed in pre-Christian Latin, in attitudes persisting to this day among "sophisticated" city dwellers towards country "bumpkins", I would seriously doubt your suggestions, characterised as they seem to be by some similar types of value judgments.

the historical usage of the term was indeed pejorative and was used to contrast "pagans" with the "civilized" Christians.

No, originally it was "civilised and urban" versus "ignorant and rural".

JabbaPapa · Aug 16, 2024

The antonym of paganus in its pejorative senses was urbanus.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

JabbaPapa said:
An anachronistic claim, given that the Latin word paganus is centuries older than Christianity.

You are attributing semantic development in mediaeval theology after the death of classical Graeco-Roman paganism to what it has no relation to.

Given that the pejorative connotations of the word existed in pre-Christian Latin, in attitudes persisting to this day among "sophisticated" city dwellers towards country "bumpkins", I would seriously doubt your suggestions, characterised as they seem to be by some similar types of value judgments.

the historical usage of the term was indeed pejorative and was used to contrast "pagans" with the "civilized" Christians.

No, originally it was "civilised and urban" versus "ignorant and rural".

"It is crucial to stress right from the start that until the 20th century, people did not call themselves pagans to describe the religion they practised. The notion of paganism, as it is generally understood today, was created by the early Christian Church. It was a label that Christians applied to others, one of the antitheses that were central to the process of Christian self-definition. As such, throughout history it was generally used in a derogatory sense."

Owen Davies, Paganism: A Very Short Introduction, 2011

"The adoption of paganus by the Latin Christians as an all-embracing, pejorative term for polytheists represents an unforeseen and singularly long-lasting victory, within a religious group, of a word of Latin slang originally devoid of religious meaning. The evolution occurred only in the Latin west, and in connection with the Latin church. Elsewhere, Hellene or gentile (ethnikos) remained the word for pagan; and paganos continued as a purely secular term, with overtones of the inferior and the commonplace."

Peter Brown, Late Antiquity, 1999

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

I have often found that one can get something unexpectedly informative or interesting out of any forum thread.

And indeed: I wondered sometimes why it is Cammino di Santiago in Italian and not Camino di Santiago.

Today I learnt that Italian has il camino - the chimney and il cammino - the way.

Who knew? I would never have guessed it.

falcon269 · Aug 16, 2024

skysurf said:
The exploration of America did not begin with Christians; "pagans," such as the Vikings, had already arrived in America before them.

Ignoring the humans that had been in the "new world" all the way to Chile and Canada for 12-15,000 years! The wheel was never used in the Americas before Columbus except in toys. Strange that migrants would not bring their signature invention. Or wheat, their signature foodstuff. Without Peruvians, there could never have been an Irish potato famine...

JabbaPapa · Aug 16, 2024

skysurf said:
"It is crucial to stress right from the start that until the 20th century, people did not call themselves pagans to describe the religion they practised. The notion of paganism, as it is generally understood today, was created by the early Christian Church. It was a label that Christians applied to others, one of the antitheses that were central to the process of Christian self-definition. As such, throughout history it was generally used in a derogatory sense."

Owen Davies, Paganism: A Very Short Introduction, 2011

"The adoption of paganus by the Latin Christians as an all-embracing, pejorative term for polytheists represents an unforeseen and singularly long-lasting victory, within a religious group, of a word of Latin slang originally devoid of religious meaning. The evolution occurred only in the Latin west, and in connection with the Latin church. Elsewhere, Hellene or gentile (ethnikos) remained the word for pagan; and paganos continued as a purely secular term, with overtones of the inferior and the commonplace."

Peter Brown, Late Antiquity, 1999

The claims in those quotes are incorrect as to the word history.

The word paganus was used in a derogatory fashion by Classical Romans against various people out in the sticks who practiced various rural religious cults.

And the antonyms paganus/urbanus are hardly "Latin slang".

The first two sentences of the first quote are in direct contradiction of each other - - if the modern concept of "pagan" has a 20th Century origin, how can it have been "created" by "the early church" ?

The second quote falsely suggests that Mediaeval concepts contrasting Christianity to non-Christian religions existed in Latin Antiquity, whereas in fact the early Christians instead denounced false religions, idolatry, and sacrifices to false gods. No concept of "polytheism" even existed before the Middle Ages, and the word itself is IIRC of 19th Century origin, so that it is historically impossible that Latin paganus could mean polytheistic.

Kathor1 · Aug 16, 2024

In the context of the thread title, it does not matter what the word "pagan" once meant in the Roman Empire; among the first generations of Christians in the Roman Empire; in the Europe of the Middle Ages; after 1492 in the colonies established overseas by European powers; or nowadays. The first definition that pops up in Google Search is "(especially in historical contexts) a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main or recognised religions. Example: The incoming Germanic peoples were pagans".

That, I am sure, is what the OP, @Samten, meant who has not been back on the forum since last summer btw, and that, I am sure, is what readers understood.

As to a further discussion of any meaning of pagan and paganism, scroll back to posts in the region of posts with numbers 90 and higher. We've already been through this in this thread.

skysurf · Aug 16, 2024

Ok, got it!
Not everyone is focused on the argumentative axis of this subgroup. I joined this forum to discuss ideas about the origin of the Camino de Santiago, and I’d prefer not to get sidetracked.

I’m not keen on having to defend myself with every post or facing harsh criticism for any mistakes I might make during my exploration.

Is there anyone else here who shares this interest? My goal is to have a brainstorming session rather than rigorously proving every detail.

If there’s enough interest, perhaps we could start a new subgroup dedicated to this discussion.

William Garza · Aug 17, 2024

To be sure
Where human goes
Paths follow.

Kathor1 · Aug 17, 2024

William Garza said:
To be sure
Where human goes
Paths follow.

It sounds nice and poetic and I like the sound of it .

But the physical road to Santiago exists because it connects towns and because people had business to go to these towns, all sorts of business. The town of Santiago is at the end of the Road to Santiago but this road is also the Road to Leon, the Road to Burgos, the Road to Pamplona, and it is a road in both directions.

The non-physical road to Santiago, the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, the Pilgrimage to Santiago exists because of Christian beliefs in general, and in particular Christian beliefs and mindset in the Middle Ages and in particular from the period starting around 1000 or 1100.

Nobody today needs to be aware of this or be interested in it. But if one wants to talk origin than one needs to inform oneself about this.

In the recent articles about scientific research of the skeleton of Teodomiro, bishop of Padrón in the 9th century, he is described in some news articles as the originator of the pilgrimage to Santiago or Camino to Santiago. In a way, one can say that the person or persons who brought relics of a Christian or of a person important in Christian beliefs to a church in a town were the initiators of the pilgrimage to this town that subsequently developed. But the origin of the medieval pilgrimage phenomenon lies in that period of time and how thinking about aspects of the Christian faith developed in that period of time after the millennium. Going on pilgrimage to the relics of a Christian martyr, or to the place of a Eucharistic miracle or Marian miracle became a mass phenomenon and it was no longer an endeavour of the odd fervent (and often wealthy) believer or of monks and of members of the clergy.

The roots of Christianity lie in the mind, in thinking. They lie in the biblical stories and their interpretation, in what is regarded as the teaching of Jesus, and these fundamentals were further developed and interpreted by Paul, by other early "Fathers" of the Church and many others. The wells and trees that are said to have been turned into Holy Wells or Holy Trees by the Christian missionaries in Europe, or the festivals that are said to have been turned into Christian festivals like Christmas - they are not the roots of Christian belief. They are accessories. They were absorbed and integrated within the prevalent religious-cultural landscape, they aren't roots.

In my humble opinion, one needs to dive into the mind of medieval people to understand the European medieval pilgrimage phenomenon. These bones, these miracles - they meant something else to them than they mean to us today. And while there may be superficial similarities with other pilgrimages in other parts of the world or at other times, the core is different. Saying that it means going to a holy place misses the point. The "Camino de Santiago" and all the other pilgrimages to Rome, to Aachen, to Canterbury, to Einsiedeln, to Wilsnack, to Le Puy - it is a unique phenomenon of the time period 1000-1500.

William Garza · Aug 17, 2024

Kathar1na said:
It sounds nice and poetic and I like the sound of it .

But the physical road to Santiago exists because it connects towns and because people had business to go to these towns, all sorts of business. The town of Santiago is at the end of the Road to Santiago but this road is also the Road to Leon, the Road to Burgos, the Road to Pamplona, and it is a road in both directions.

The non-physical road to Santiago, the Pilgrimage Road to Santiago, the Pilgrimage to Santiago exists because of Christian beliefs in general, and in particular Christian beliefs and mindset in the Middle Ages and in particular from the period starting around 1000 or 1100.

Nobody today needs to be aware of this or be interested in it. But if one wants to talk origin than one needs to inform oneself about this.

In the recent articles about scientific research of the skeleton of Teodomiro, bishop of Padrón in the 9th century, he is described in some news articles as the originator of the pilgrimage to Santiago. In a way, one can say that the person or persons who brought relics of a Christian or of a person important in Christian beliefs to a church in a town were the initiators of the pilgrimage to this town that subsequently developed. But the origin of the medieval pilgrimage phenomenon lies in that period of time and how thinking about aspects of the Christian faith developed in that period of time after the millennium. Going on pilgrimage to the relics of a Christian martyr, of a Eucharistic miracle or of a Marian miracle became a mass phenomenon and it was no longer an endeavour of the odd fervent (and often wealthy) believer or of monks and of members of the clergy.

The roots of Christianity lie in the mind, in thinking. They lie in the biblical stories and their interpretation, in what is regarded as the teaching of Jesus, and these fundamentals were further developed and interpreted by Paul, by other early "Fathers" of the Church and many others. The wells and trees that are said to have been turned into Holy Wells or Holy trees by the Christian missionaries in Europe, or the festivals that are said to have been turned into Christian festivals like Christmas - they are not the roots of Christian belief. They are accessories. They were absorbed and integrated within the prevalent religious-cultural landscape, they aren't roots.

In my humble opinion, one needs to dive into the mind of medieval people to understand the European medieval pilgrimage phenomenon. These bones, these miracles - they meant something else to them than they mean to us today. And while there may be superficial similarities with other pilgrimages in other parts of the world or at other times, the core is different. Saying that it means going to a holy place misses the point. The "Camino de Santiago" and all the other pilgrimages to Rome, to Aachen, to Canterbury, to Einsiedeln, to Wilsnack, to Le Puy - it is a unique phenomenon of the time period 1000-1500.

There was more to the post..but i needed to chew on the idea
Its not much a who..question, but why.
The Way exists externally outside of the Human Gyre...the idea of A way came to exist because the idea came to exist.

Before the idea was "chaos"
After the idea came the "Form"
IT is there! Now we have a direction and how do we get there most efficently.

So perigrination/ migration/ its that way...

Tying attributes of ownership seems too simple a reason to say it was a pagan idea
Its an infinite loop, what came before...

It simply exists
There is a path
Lets go

Ideas can be dangerous.
I would be equally enraptured listening to ideas free of ownership
Thats where the ultima thule..the frontier lays
And its ever so exciting to watch the spark of human intelligence kindle

As

I would listen to a scholar wax on about the logic behind the idea to walk how many kilometers to see?

No one can lay claim
We are here
Right here
Right now..existing nowhere except between our ears
At least thats my idea

Kathor1 · Aug 17, 2024

William Garza said:
It simply exists
There is a path
Lets go

Well, there is belief and there is knowledge - in my humble view at least. As I said, I tend to let people believe whatever they want to believe while walking. If it is about knowledge and on the forum - well that's different.

Take this example: Forum members from around the world share that they hear the Call of the Camino and just have to go. OK. I personally rarely feel a need to share why I walked. Or walk. But some of my interest lies with the bunch of French academics, some secular laypersons, some with a function in the Catholic Church, who started, after WWII, to take an interest in the history of the medieval pilgrimage to Santiago and in the traces that are left to this day - not only in buildings and in art and in literature but also on the ground. Their enthusiasm and their knowledge and their pioneering work were quickly picked up in other European countries and in Spain and there in particular in Estella. A decade later, a Spanish politician who was a native of Galicia, saw the potential of Spain's and in particular Galicia's cultural-religious heritage in this respect and it snowballed from there. Without these people and without their efforts, would the Call of the Camino be heard today in the USA and Australia and Canada and New Zealand and elsewhere so far away from Santiago?

So, yes, individual persons count. Initiators and promotors count. They played a role.

William Garza · Aug 17, 2024

Kathar1na said:
Well, there is belief and there is knowledge - in my humble view at least. As I said, I tend to let people believe whatever they want to believe while walking. If it is about knowledge and on the forum - well that's different.

Take this example: Forum members from around the world share that they hear the Call of the Camino and just have to go. OK. I personally rarely feel a need to share why I walked. Or walk. But some of my interest lies with the bunch of French academics, some secular laypersons, some with a function in the Catholic Church, who started, after WII, to take an interest in the history of the medieval pilgrimage to Santiago and in the traces that are left to this day - not only in buildings and in art and in literature but also on the ground. Their enthusiasm and their knowledge and their pioneering work were quickly picked up in other European countries and in Spain and there in particular in Estella. A decade later, a Spanish politician who was a native of Galicia, saw the potential of their cultural-religious heritage and it snowballed from there. Without these people and without their efforts, would the Call of the Camino be heard today in the USA and Australia and Canada and New Zealand and elsewhere so far away from Santiago?

Ime glad they took the interest!
Imagine the coversations between them at the beginning?

I love the history presented about the Camino
There is so much to learn and and so little time..this is only one of them!

SYates · 2025-01-04T16:53:19+0100

I thought it would be great if we share music that reminds us of the Camino, ideally with a sentence about why it matters to you. This song, apart of the beautiful hunting voice that let's me...

VNwalking · 2025-01-04T14:27:00+0100

Over the New Year holiday I listened to this very nicely done podcast from the BBC about medieval pilgrimage. It was amusing to realize how completely familiar the medieval debates around...

Pagan origins of the Camino

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